La figura del boss è andata evolvendosi e si è adeguata al cambiamento dei tempi. La comunicazione e il linguaggio utilizzato sono fra gli elementi di maggiore trasfomazione. La conferma si ha attraverso le interviste più celebri rilasciate da alcuni di loro alla Rai, quasi sempre dietro le sbarre. Nel corso della sua carriera, Enzo Biagi ha incontrato Luciano Liggio, Raffaele Cutolo e Tommaso Buscetta, dialogando con loro con il suo stile asciutto e pungente, cercando di andare dritto al cuore del discorso e mettendo i boss di fronte alle loro responsabilità.
La figura del boss è andata evolvendosi e si è adeguata al cambiamento dei tempi. La comunicazione e il linguaggio utilizzato sono fra gli elementi di maggiore trasfomazione
Joe Marrazzo ha invece incontrato il boss calabrese #MomoPiromalli, oltre alla celebre intervista a #RaffaeleCutolo. Tra le celebri interviste anche quella di don #TanoBadalamenti, nel 1997 ad #EnnioRemondino, durante la sua detenzione negli Stati Uniti. Fino ai pentiti come #AntoninoCalderone, tra i primi a rilasciare interviste in televisione. Ma anche #TotòRiina ha rilasciato dichiarazioni importanti dietro le sbarre. I boss provocano ma appaiono sconfitti, eppure nel loro linguaggio ci sono differenze sostanziali e diversi codici e cifre criminali.
#Camorra #Gomorra #Mafia #Ndrangheta #Antimafia #Boss #Crime #TrueCrime #Delitti #Misteri #Killer #SerialKiller #ColdCase #Cronaca #CronacaNera #Mistero #Delitto #Documentari #Documentario #Docu #Doc #DivinumCrime
La figura del boss è andata evolvendosi e si è adeguata al cambiamento dei tempi. La comunicazione e il linguaggio utilizzato sono fra gli elementi di maggiore trasfomazione
Joe Marrazzo ha invece incontrato il boss calabrese #MomoPiromalli, oltre alla celebre intervista a #RaffaeleCutolo. Tra le celebri interviste anche quella di don #TanoBadalamenti, nel 1997 ad #EnnioRemondino, durante la sua detenzione negli Stati Uniti. Fino ai pentiti come #AntoninoCalderone, tra i primi a rilasciare interviste in televisione. Ma anche #TotòRiina ha rilasciato dichiarazioni importanti dietro le sbarre. I boss provocano ma appaiono sconfitti, eppure nel loro linguaggio ci sono differenze sostanziali e diversi codici e cifre criminali.
#Camorra #Gomorra #Mafia #Ndrangheta #Antimafia #Boss #Crime #TrueCrime #Delitti #Misteri #Killer #SerialKiller #ColdCase #Cronaca #CronacaNera #Mistero #Delitto #Documentari #Documentario #Docu #Doc #DivinumCrime
Categoria
📺
TVTrascrizione
00:00Italians, all right, let's bring support, guilty of the crimes they are accused of by the head of nutrition.
00:20The big boss has come, who will go around.
00:30The horrifying attack in which Judge Donato Faccone lost his life.
00:42I forgive you, but you have to tell me about it.
00:46Sorry, it's the chorale.
00:59The RAI archives are full of interviews with mafiosi.
01:03These include documentaries, in-depth programmes, news programmes,
01:07who told the story of organized crime
01:10and who tried to understand more also through the boss's words.
01:23Journalists like Enzo Biaggi or Giuseppe Marrazzo
01:27they met people like Tommaso Buscetta,
01:31Luciano Liggio, Raffaele Cutolo
01:33and others like Tano Badalamenti
01:36or Repentant like Calderone and Mutolo.
01:39Their first goal was to have their story told
01:43years of crimes, of brutal crimes,
01:46but also to understand what goes through the minds of those who commit these crimes.
01:51Try to understand the language too
01:53through the way of responding, of behaving, of presenting oneself.
02:01Bosses try to react, often answering questions with a provocative tone,
02:07sometimes they try to send coded messages.
02:10For example Cutolo, in an interview with Marrazzo,
02:13he wanted to appear pompous and victorious,
02:16but in reality behind bars he showed that he had lost all his authority
02:21and the criminal power he had had and exercised.
02:24But I'm not in place,
02:26I'm not really in the right place,
02:28It doesn't exist, I've been in prison for a long time.
02:30Also Luciano Liggio,
02:31interviewed by Enzo Biaggi,
02:34he pushed the accusations against her
02:35and proposed himself as a sacrificial victim,
02:39even posing as a benefactor of humanity.
02:41Someone has defined him as the new face of the mafia,
02:44and what do you know about Cosa Nostra?
02:46Nothing.
02:48Behind the mask,
02:49the bosses were forced to admit that they had been defeated
02:52from the war that existed
02:54and had accused the State,
02:56staining themselves with horrible rights.
03:02Today we look at these interviews
03:04with the detachment of someone who analyses a historical period
03:07and yet we cannot help but notice
03:10that arrogance and pride
03:11that the bosses tried to flaunt
03:14when they talked he deflated
03:16for the simple fact that they were in prison
03:19or behind the beards.
04:03But I don't know what mafia means
04:06I don't know if it's something you can eat
04:08I don't know if it's something you can drink
04:09I don't know where they invented this mafia.
04:13Mr. Cuttolo, who do you think is a Camorrista?
04:17No, let's say a lifestyle choice.
04:18It's not that the Camorrista,
04:20because it's a label that the Camorrista gives himself.
04:22I never said there was this new Camorra.
04:25For me, let's say it was a party.
04:36Violence is not part of my dignity.
04:40Whoever blocked the Corleonesi's path is dead.
04:46And I wish you again, Mr. President,
04:50may this peace accompany you for the rest of your life, today.
04:59my sentence is 61 and a half years.
05:04A year and a half because I didn't respond
05:07to the judge's question whether I am a mafioso or not.
05:11Look, don't even call me Buscetta.
05:16You say any name.
05:18Because you trampled...
05:20What do you want them to call you?
05:21You trampled on the one you caressed.
05:43Once upon a time, mafiosi had the obligation to remain silent.
05:47One of the fundamental rules of those who became affiliates
05:53to mafia organizations, whether they be the Sicilian mafia,
05:56the 'ndrangheta or the camorra, was that of absolute silence.
06:01It's not that the mafiosi didn't talk at all.
06:03Because, for example, they spoke through cipher languages.
06:08We spoke without saying a word.
06:19A paradox?
06:20Yes, a paradox.
06:21But the mafia knew how to talk.
06:24For example, by committing murders.
06:35Then, at a certain point, the mafia understood
06:38that it was necessary to speak directly,
06:43without allusions, as happened with these silent languages,
06:47and as a result, the mafiosi began to give interviews like normal people.
07:01Let's talk in complete tranquility.
07:02Is this your son?
07:03Yes, my son.
07:04Good morning.
07:06What future do you wish for your son, Mr. Cutolo?
07:09Avvenire wishes you well.
07:10The ones that all honest fathers wish for, anyway.
07:13They must already see it in here, innocently.
07:16Some have called him the new face of the mafia.
07:18What do you know about Cosa Nostra?
07:21Nothing.
07:22Mr. Liggio?
07:23Yes.
07:26You have the heart that lifts me up.
07:28Well done, well done, well done.
07:35We enter Corleone.
07:38It is a large agricultural center 60 kilometers from Palermo.
07:4115,000 inhabitants, 4,000 illiterates, 3,000 unemployed.
07:481958.
07:50Luciano Leggio is the man who embodies the transition from the old to the new mafia,
07:55replacing Don Michele Navarra, killed in an attack.
08:00August 2, 1958.
08:02Michele Navarra is returning to Corleone from Ercara,
08:05on the 1100 driven by colleague Dr. Russo.
08:09He notices that a car is following them.
08:11Russo accelerates.
08:12His followers are faster, overtake him and cut him off.
08:16As the 1100 crashes into the chasing car,
08:20from this three pistols and two machine guns open fire,
08:22shattering the windshield and killing Dr. Russo instantly.
08:26Navarra instinctively ducks to escape the blows.
08:30But a burst of gunfire hits him through the door, killing him.
08:34The police are focusing their investigations on Luciano Liggio and his gang.
08:46Luciano will take the surname Liggio due to a spelling error
08:50of his personal data in an arrest report.
08:53From then on, everyone would know him as Luciano Liggio.
08:59Mr. Leggio or Mr. Liggio, which do you prefer?
09:03My surname is Falleggio, but everyone calls me Mr. Liggio.
09:08So, so much so that I am not using this Liggio as my stage name.
09:14Mine almost define Liggio.
09:19In 1964 he was arrested by the Carabinieri in Corleone,
09:24but he won't stay in prison for long,
09:26because he will be acquitted due to insufficient evidence
09:28in the Bari and Catanzaro trials.
09:31A few years later, on May 16, 1974,
09:35the Guardia di Finanza arrests him in Milan,
09:38where he had taken refuge.
09:39Posed, as they say in mafia slang,
09:42from his own former associates.
09:45Marginalized and powerless,
09:47Liggio will never leave prison.
09:57In 1989, Luciano Liggio agreed to be interviewed by Enzo Biagi,
10:03partly out of vanity, partly out of challenge,
10:05appears in front of the cameras for the first time,
10:08to tell his truths.
10:12This interview by Liggio with Enzo Biagi
10:17It's important because for the first time
10:19the one who had been the head of the Sicilian mafia dome
10:23he feels the need to talk.
10:26He feels this for two reasons.
10:28Because he needs to talk to his people,
10:30but he also needs to explain to the one who wasn't a mafioso
10:34some questions, so the decision was made to speak.
10:37It was a very strong impact because he did not speak through documents,
10:42he did not speak through a process,
10:45so he did not give others the opportunity to exploit his language
10:48and interpret their language.
10:51He is the one who speaks directly and responds to Biagi's interview.
10:55What went wrong in your life?
10:58But when you look at me it all worked out.
11:01I have nothing to reproach myself with.
11:03What is she referring to?
11:05Well, I mean, I'm referring to the fact that it's in here.
11:10Nothing, the honesty and zeal of those who were called to judge me didn't work.
11:18The mafioso will never say, I am a mafioso and I killed this one, that one,
11:22because the moment he makes a statement like that he changes sides,
11:27becomes a collaborator of justice.
11:29But do you admit to being guilty of some sin?
11:32But I never said I was a saint.
11:36He must justify to himself, to his people and to others why he became a mafioso.
11:42What is the mafia in your opinion? Is it something reprehensible?
11:47Look, my idea has always been that I'm speaking from my experience.
11:56Do you also talk about God without ever having met him?
11:58Sure, sure, but in my experience, always and continuously calling me a mafioso,
12:05I don't think I have anything to reproach myself for or that I have hurt anyone in my life,
12:12or to have taken advantage of any challenge anyone to find me, contrary to what I say.
12:18Since among the photographs there is a fellow countryman of yours, Luciano Ligio, do you know him?
12:25How do you know him?
12:25Do you remember it?
12:26Well, I'd say as if you want...
12:28He saw it as a boy, didn't he?
12:30How do I know who I was?
12:31As?
12:32How was I to you?
12:35Do you remember it?
12:36What do you mean?
12:38Obviously so terrible, as they say?
13:00But faiato had to be a word of beauty, not only physical beauty, but also beauty as spirituality.
13:10in the sense that according to the beautiful woman
13:12let's say but the mafioso is this woman
13:14it's a beauty
13:16a beautiful horse
13:18the mafioso is this horse
13:19a nice coat
13:21the mafioso is a mafioso
13:23it was the word, the meaning
13:25it was a compliment
13:27and a phenomenon of beauty
13:30I if it is like that
13:33if so
13:34she doesn't get offended if I said the mafioso
13:35I'm not offended, not only
13:37It just pains me that I think I don't have
13:40all that wealth
13:41spiritual and physical
13:43to be
13:45a mafioso, in short, to be
13:47mafioso in the good sense of the word
13:50and then he became a mafioso
13:51because they were generous
13:53the mafiosi, because they were
13:55on the side of the people, of the poor people
13:57of those who had nothing, of those who rebelled
14:00to the State, this State
14:01oppressor, this State that in the south
14:03had acted as a colonizer
14:05so they presented what was coming
14:07called the good mafia
14:10which was an old idea
14:12of the mafia
14:13which was present until
14:15in the mid-sixties
14:17she is a good person
14:18we are happy because
14:21I am
14:22our villagers
14:24who return to their country
14:26in his opinion the mafia does not exist
14:27what the newspapers and the judges talk about
14:29So why do so many people die?
14:32this one has to ask for an apology
14:34to those who kill him
14:36to me who asked me
14:36to me who asked me the fantastic
14:37the wizard of the sixties
14:38but she will have an idea
14:39why don't as many die in Tuscany?
14:42as I told him
14:45I don't have the mentality of an investigator
14:47so I'm not going to the union
14:50for whom or for whom
14:51that isn't there
14:53but what can I say?
14:54what can I tell you?
14:55we are hot-blooded people
14:57if you like this
14:58people who maybe in other places
15:00something ends with a fistfight
15:02and there it ends with
15:04the body of the revolver
15:06but more than this
15:08what does he want even the fingers
15:11the message was clear enough
15:13we are a power
15:14that we deal with the State
15:17on an equal footing
15:19and we help the State
15:20to solve some problems
15:22but do you believe that Cosa Nostra exists?
15:26but what I believe
15:27I do not believe
15:28it's no use
15:30if I have to rely on it
15:32on my experience
15:33I was considered
15:35mafia boss
15:36head of this
15:38and head of that
15:39and nothing is true
15:40I am nothing
15:41if I have to rely on it
15:42on my experience
15:43nothing exists
15:45if I have to rely on it
15:46on experience
15:47I'm a fantone
16:00listen Mr. Rigio
16:02she once said
16:03owner gastolo
16:04I read
16:05a 22-year sentence
16:06another one at 6
16:08but towards me
16:09there is no proof
16:10I never spoke
16:12I have never cheated
16:13to Socrates
16:14they made him drink hemlock
16:15I got jail time
16:16I was convicted
16:18in retaliation
16:19have you always believed this?
16:21Yes
16:21in full
16:22but I was luckier
16:25of Socrates
16:25I was not up to Socrates' standards
16:27but at the same time
16:28luckier
16:29Here you are
16:30from what
16:30they tried
16:31to do it well
16:32so in small sips
16:35the evil of life
16:36why continue the prison
16:38it's a small dose
16:40of hemlocks per day
16:41In short
16:41hear from what
16:42this hostility is born
16:44this persecution?
16:45but this should
16:49ask who
16:51of this
16:52he made a profit from it
16:54and advantages
16:54because they were interested
16:57to a state body
16:59in Italy
17:00it happens that when I refuse
17:02the deal is lost
17:03and here's why
17:04Buscetta
17:05he's so fierce
17:07against the Corleonesi
17:08and this is why
17:10there are no other reasons
17:12and I
17:15I also gave up my freedom
17:18that is, she refused
17:20to participate in this
17:21I refused everything
17:22to give the endorsement
17:23to give the endorsement
17:24whatever the cost
17:26I didn't feel like it
17:27to endorse
17:28the possibility
17:29to bring the country
17:31in a regime
17:32totalitarian
17:34Anyway, what I intuit
17:36is that
17:36behind my back
17:38they made some cashiers
17:40in San Beccatore
17:42without a goal
17:43they took advantage
17:45of this
17:46of this myth
17:48that they created
17:49at the same time
17:50Why
17:50the myth serves
17:55they don't want to let go of him
17:57Why
17:57they are done
17:58cashier
17:58they are done
17:59a lot of money
18:00I to the State
18:01I cost
18:01a billion
18:03Jules Verne
18:04he wrote
18:04around the world
18:05in 80 days
18:06Well
18:09with me
18:10they did
18:10around the world
18:11in 20 years
18:13in 25 years
18:14I have all mine
18:15windfall
18:16there are forces
18:17of cleaning
18:17they are gone
18:18everywhere
18:19at the expense
18:20of the State
18:21with research
18:22Lectern
18:23even if Leggio
18:24there wasn't
18:24in that place
18:25where we went to look
18:26but who wanted to do it
18:27a miage
18:28he had the opportunity
18:29to turn
18:30and then
18:32to police power
18:33myths are needed
18:34and it was created
18:36a myth
18:36the mafiosi
18:37they always have
18:38need for consent
18:39we don't have to
18:40never forget
18:41this aspect
18:41in history
18:42of the stain
18:43of the 'ndranghia
18:43of the Camorra
18:44it's a common thread
18:46the mafiosi
18:47they always have
18:48needed
18:49of consent
18:50because without
18:51the consent
18:51they wouldn't go
18:52anywhere
18:55third thing
18:55it's clear that
18:56he also speaks
18:57to his
18:58to continue
19:00to say
19:00I am here
19:01a character
19:01so important
19:02to the point
19:03that a journalist
19:04of the caliber
19:04of the Biaggis
19:05he comes to my cell
19:06and speaks
19:07with me
19:08I believe
19:09that these
19:09are the reasons
19:11for which
19:11Lectern
19:11speaks
19:13in that way
19:14second
19:15the police
19:16the power
19:16mafioso
19:17it's passed
19:17from her
19:18to Salvatore
19:18Queen
19:19this Queen
19:20he knows him
19:21what kind is he
19:23first of all
19:24I didn't have
19:25mafia power
19:26to be able to leave
19:27as an inheritance
19:28Nobody
19:28I have never been
19:30and then
19:31this Queen
19:32I know him
19:33was
19:34from my cell
19:35in company
19:36for almost
19:38eight months
19:39she says
19:41that the boy is
19:42for me
19:42he's a good boy
19:43a person
19:43very polite
19:46the mafiosi
19:47at a certain point
19:48they understood
19:49that they couldn't
19:50stay silent longer
19:51and they understood
19:51that they had to
19:52use
19:53the means
19:53that technology
19:56the development
19:57of telecommunications
19:58what
19:59was changing
20:00the company
20:00it could have been
20:01used
20:01from them too
20:06he didn't care
20:07nothing more
20:08not to speak
20:08On the contrary
20:09Exactly
20:09the overthrow
20:10of the practice
20:11previous
20:17welcome
20:18the potential
20:18advantage
20:19of the medium
20:19television
20:20it is above all
20:21Raffaele Cutolo
20:22creator
20:24and creator
20:24in the early years
20:25seventy
20:26of the new
20:27Camorra
20:27organized
20:30Cutolo
20:31gives shape
20:32to an organization
20:33criminal
20:33electing
20:34himself
20:35at the top
20:35of a system
20:36pyramidal
20:37under which
20:38acts
20:39an army
20:39of young people
20:40strays
20:41recruited
20:42in the underworld
20:42an underproletariat
20:44citizen
20:45to him
20:46completely
20:46devotee
20:48one of the rules
20:50imposed by the boss
20:51is that all the proceeds
20:53of the activities
20:53illegal
20:54are divided
20:55among the authors
20:56of the crimes
20:57creating
20:58a common fund
20:59destined
21:00to sustenance
21:01and to the needs
21:02of the prisoners
21:03and their families
21:05an underclass
21:34I stole
21:34slash
21:35interview Raffaele Cutolo during a trial in Naples
21:38for a TG2 special on the New Camorra.
21:42The boss of Ottaviano returned to prison two years earlier,
21:46but he is at the height of his criminal career.
21:51All friends?
21:53Certainly all friends, how?
21:56You too, all of you.
21:58These demonstrations of affection that she has when she arrives in court?
22:03Here, this is my joy, people love me.
22:06Do you feel loved?
22:08They prove it to me, it's not that I feel alone, they prove it to me, with facts.
22:12But is it also a policy of his to assert himself and his name?
22:17It doesn't exist, because I don't need it, I have money, not anything anyway,
22:20I am the son of farmers and I am proud of it,
22:24so if I have money, I sent myself to the suffering currency,
22:27I don't send myself as they say about prisoners,
22:29you can see in prisons, I screen little girls every day,
22:32to children, maybe because I need affection, I don't know.
22:35And where do these tens of millions come from, this that you distribute?
22:39To tell me, he makes a sifting, he says 600 thousand lire, I distribute it to the other one, what should I do with it?
22:44Do they give them to you so voluntarily?
22:46Oh no, not to me that I can extort from him.
22:48Puntolo is another intriguing character in the history of the mafia,
22:53a powerful character, a character who, however, is a Neapolitan tough guy.
22:58Here it is said that she built her character,
23:02also knowing how to exploit the mass media, television, radio, newspapers,
23:07just to build the boss character.
23:11But I'm not a boss, I'm not really a boss, it doesn't exist,
23:16I've been in prison for 20 years, I've been in prison for 18 years.
23:21Let's not forget that behind bars, he was doing interviews,
23:25but inside the prison he dealt with the State, with that Christian democracy,
23:28who had not wanted to deal with Moro.
23:31Even though he was in prison, he still represented a point of reference
23:36for his people who were outside.
23:38Here, Raffaele Cutolo, what is he for you?
23:40For me, Raffaele Cutolo is a serious, simple, sincere and real man.
23:46He is very fond of this land of Octavian,
23:49because Octavian raised him when I was a child,
23:52Octavian has always been on this earth
23:54and he loves the people of Ottaviano, with all his heart and with truly profound respect and esteem.
24:00He grew up among the people, he is a man of the people,
24:03he is a man who gives everything for Octavian.
24:05The heart is not what people can imagine
24:08that Raffaele Cutolo was a good guy, it's not true.
24:10Raffaele Cutolo is a sincere man.
24:12Is it his own phrase or was it attributed to him?
24:16After having offered the cheek it is permitted to mate.
24:19Yes, because it is an interpretation.
24:21Jesus said that you should turn the other cheek,
24:23but the silkie didn't say it.
24:24And here he said it, like so many other things.
24:27He's like our patron saint.
24:29What idea did you get of the repentants and old friends?
24:33like Pandico, Barra and so on.
24:36You see, Pandico was not my friend or mine.
24:39By the way, repentants don't exist,
24:41they are false repentants.
24:43Let's say they are created here in the Neapolitan area mostly.
24:47But poor things, they too in the sense were played
24:50from these young magistrates.
24:52being able to reach power makes you say a lot of things.
24:55But the dissociated don't understand this.
24:57More than the repentant, by the way.
25:00This is what I also want to ask the President.
25:09Is there any kind of relationship between the Mafia and the Camorra?
25:12But I don't know, if she's talking about the Camorra that they attribute to care,
25:17it was never Camorra for me.
25:19For me it is an ideal of life, I repeat.
25:21Then the Camorra, the 'ndranghe of the mafia, is a completely different thing.
25:24But the mafia is in Rome, the Camorra is in Rome.
25:27The real Camorra is in Rome.
25:30It was a battle on a cultural level
25:32which has been underestimated.
25:35Because for a very long historical period
25:38he imagined the fight against the mafia
25:39only and exclusively as a criminal act.
25:47He loves to be loved by the people.
25:49And the people respect him not because, as journalists write,
25:53as the magistrates say.
25:54The people love him because he is a man who makes himself loved.
25:58Cutolo, Liggio, Piromalli tell you something else.
26:01That they want to speak to their people and to others
26:04on a cultural level, sending messages.
26:07Which are not messages of war.
26:09In a courtroom next door, Pasquale Barra is being tried.
26:13which is defined as the long violent arm of the Camorra.
26:19Pasquale Barra has been a friend of mine since I was little.
26:22We're buddies, he's been a friend of mine forever.
26:24He's an unfortunate one.
26:25But whoever goes his way finds it.
26:29How do you find him as a killer?
26:31Don't understand these words, that's it, this is killer.
26:33He can't find it, what do you want me to do?
26:35If someone hits him, do you want him to do it?
26:37He wants to kill you, do you want me to?
26:40They never threaten.
26:42They never say, we use violence,
26:45we send the bombs, we commit the massacres.
26:48Exactly the opposite.
26:49They are cultural messages,
26:51a different vision than the one we give of them.
26:55From what the magistrates and the Carabinieri give in the requests for the sending to trial
27:01and in the sentences.
27:03This is the clash.
27:05And they understood this clash,
27:07we understood it and I see.
27:09Everyone calls her the boss of bosses.
27:12Others say so.
27:14I am a man who...
27:16She went against society.
27:18Well, in recent times a certain contrast between the clans has been noticed.
27:23How do you define it?
27:24How do you explain it, that's it.
27:26What a clan.
27:27There's talk of a contrast between her and the others...
27:30No, journalists say these things.
27:32They write, they say.
27:34The 200 deaths in a year and a half aren't written in the newspapers?
27:38Earthquakes, earthquakes.
27:39Those who died were killed.
27:42Kill yourself.
27:43Those who died were killed.
27:44Someone has a season ticket for the rope pumps to play dead, right?
27:47There is also talk of the last two deaths,
27:50or rather of the dead of the wounded to Octavian.
27:53The city councilor.
27:55I heard your interview.
27:57I follow them all.
27:58I have the habit of buying 20 newspapers and I follow them all.
28:02I know him and he's a good person.
28:04I don't know why he said those things about me.
28:06I don't even understand it.
28:08The Stone Advisor.
28:10I interviewed you.
28:12Raffaele della Pietra.
28:12Why did he say these things about me?
28:13It's wonderful that we raised such an intelligent man together.
28:17I remember it when I was little, but I don't know now.
28:19Did they also hold a public protest against the Camorra in Ottaviano?
28:23So I don't care, it's against the Camorra.
28:25And not against me.
28:27She is considered number one.
28:30No, but not the Camorra.
28:31What I meant.
28:33Is it the mafia, you say?
28:34No, not even.
28:36But the Camorra, I repeat, I didn't see.
28:38Not at all, they did it against the Camorra.
28:39You have to ask them to see what...
28:42For example, he is considered Omalom's opponent in the entire Neapolitan group.
28:48The woman is a suffering person like me.
28:49I am no one's rival.
28:53So, how would you define yourself then?
28:57I am someone who fights against injustice.
28:59Me and all my friends.
29:03A bare thing, let's say.
29:05Let's say.
29:17If the Sicilian mafiosi and the Campanian camorristi use TV as a means of power and blackmail,
29:24Calabrians from the 'Andrangheta seem more wary of journalists.
29:29And let's not defy the valve of exhaust.
29:31We are the valve of scari.
29:33Yes, it's decorated.
29:34Marrazzo.
29:36In 1977, Giuseppe Marrazzo interviewed the boss Girolamo Piromalli, lying on a hospital bed.
29:50Don Momo Piromalli, the king of the Gioia Tauro plain, the super godfather.
29:58How do you explain these titles?
30:01I never conceived these titles, I never had them and I don't feel like I am what they are.
30:08what am I saying.
30:09They only say it, the police say it and those who have an interest in saying it, only to hurt me.
30:15But I am not what they say, I am neither a patron nor the historical head of the Calabrese mafia,
30:23because I am a family man.
30:24I am above all a persecuted person.
30:27I am a respectable man, why?
30:29Because I am generous and humane to everyone.
30:31And then people respect me just for this virtue of mine.
30:35When Piromalli is in the hospital bed he plays the victim.
30:39The victim mentality of Calabrians and Southerners is a historical fact, a fact inherent to some mafia figures and
30:48not mafiosi.
30:49That of being victims of others, never having any responsibility for them.
30:53He says exactly these things.
31:01Piromalli has control over the Gioia Tauro plain and leads with Don Antonio Macri and Don Mimmo Tripodo
31:08the economic expansion of the region during the years in which the gangs infiltrated the works for the completion of the highway
31:16Salerno-Reggio Calabria
31:17and for the steel hub of the port of Gioia Tauro.
31:26For example, it is said that the fifth iron and steel center arose under his rule.
31:33Look, I can tell you one thing from the steelworks center, that I only know the area where they're building it.
31:39I've been away from Gioia Tauro for four years, persecuted for the Borghetto case, sick from hospital to hospital
31:46and on top of that they've now given me five years of forced residence.
31:50and I went to Gioia Tauro once or twice occasionally when I was sick to see my children and always
31:57guarded by the police.
31:59He has nothing to do with the port of Gioia Tauro, he has nothing to do with anything, he simply helps people
32:04who ask him for help.
32:07It's a seemingly minimalist message, but in reality everyone knew he was Piromalli, that he was an important figure.
32:15Yet they say that the 200 trucks that do the excavation in the center are all his.
32:24Look, this is the biggest lie they can tell.
32:28They say it even though they know it's not mine, they say it just to hit me, just because they have to find a scapegoat.
32:35and this scapegoat must be someone.
32:37They think I'm someone, because I don't even own a bicycle.
32:47He seemed to me like a character, so to speak, from another time, a gentleman of the nineteenth century,
32:54but he governed that territory in a, so to speak, skilful, strong manner.
33:00When it was necessary to use violence they did, but usually they sought agreement.
33:06Yes, then there is someone who is a murderer, but we have nothing to do with these, just something else.
33:10So they distance themselves from the most sensational, wildest and most violent demonstrations.
33:17The last episode, that of Razzà, the Razzà massacre.
33:21There was talk of a mafia summit over the alleged awarding of billions in contracts.
33:29Here, dear doctor, I don't know how to answer you, because I was in the hospital and I don't want to take it personally.
33:36neither the door nor the window.
33:38What they did, let them see who did it and whether they did it, and that's it.
33:42What happened, of course, shouldn't have happened, because the fathers of the families were involved.
33:51Ic sunt leones, a pair of stone lions at the entrance to the Piromalli villas.
33:58It is the sign of the power of the family indicated as dominant in the organizational chart of the industry.
34:04of crime in Calabria.
34:06It is said that no one can move to Gioia Tauro, get a job, get a prebend
34:13without the approval of Momo Piromalli.
34:17But I have been missing, as I repeat, for four years.
34:19So these poor people are all sitting on the pavement, in the middle of the street, because
34:24Momo Piromalli isn't here and can't guarantee you a seat.
34:34The Piromallis were not greedy and therefore did not take all the money from the contracts,
34:41but they distributed them throughout all the mafia organizations in the province of Reggio Calabria.
34:46And so this created consensus and prestige for the Piromalli.
34:51So these were the Piromalli.
34:53Are you a man who has political connections with important men?
34:57No, absolutely not.
35:00Of course, if a politician meets me and knows me, because almost all of them are from the area
35:05the politicians of Calabria, meet me and greet me, good morning Piromalli, I say
35:10good morning, honorable, and if I ever needed anything I turned to you
35:15to them, as everyone does.
35:17I am not the first to turn to a parliamentarian, to a politician, to say I need you,
35:23I'm in difficulty, please help me.
35:25But are you spoken of as a great reader of important men?
35:30But I don't know this fact.
35:32When I read these things in the newspapers I can only feel sorry and mortified.
35:38because they say inaccurate things.
35:41This story of the Piromalli apparently has a fight with a poor sick man in bed
35:48with the drip that comes to be interviewed by this journalist who tries to make him talk
35:53when he is weakened.
35:54In reality the two things are linked together.
35:57He sends an extraordinary message there from someone who is apparently weak on the hospital bed,
36:05it doesn't matter at all, but in reality it mattered a lot.
36:07Regarding Piromalli's arrest, what is your opinion?
36:12My opinion is this, that for us it was a myth here.
36:18Ah, was it a myth?
36:19Eh.
36:19Why?
36:20But I don't know, it was something of ours, something that if we didn't talk about him it wasn't...
36:30Oh God, I don't know how to define it now.
36:34That is, if we weren't talking about him?
36:38Get used to picking up the newspapers every morning, to always and always read something of this
36:42mafia thing, but...
36:43But was it a myth in the positive or negative sense?
36:46But it's up to people to anticipate whether this is negative or positive.
36:51No, we would like to know your opinion.
36:52My opinion is what you want me to tell you.
36:58My opinion is that everyone has their own problems in life and...
37:07On February 10, 1986, in Palermo, the maxi-trial against the mafia took place, which saw the
37:15he blocks the most important Cosa Nostra bosses.
37:18For the first time, the cameras focus on the faces of the men of honor.
37:23For the first time, the mafiosi find themselves having to publicly answer questions from the
37:28public prosecutors.
37:30Among them is Tommaso Buscetta.
37:33Mr. President, I wanted to inform you that the defendant Tommaso Buscetta, who had waived his right to appear,
37:39is at the disposal of the Court.
37:40The first of the mafia bosses to become a collaborator of justice, who had revealed to Giovanni
37:46Falcone revealed all the secrets of the organization.
37:50The maxi-pro for the mafiosi was a boomerang from the point of view of their image, because Buscetta
37:57he had advantages over others.
37:59He could talk about things that the mafiosi couldn't talk about.
38:04By order of President Alfonso Giordano, his face will not be filmed during the interrogations.
38:11It will be Don Masino's statements that will frame most of the defendants, 346
38:19of which they are condemned.
38:21Buscetta, when he accused, accused on things he knew and the mafioso, rather than saying no,
38:29that's not true, what could he say?
38:33I am not sorry because I have nothing to regret.
38:37What I was I remain.
38:41I no longer share the structure to which I belonged.
38:47Buscetta, not only from a media point of view, but also from a procedural point of view, wins by a landslide
38:53towards others.
38:55There is no doubt about that.
38:56The family takes the name of the district where this family is located.
38:59In the city of Palermo.
39:00In the city of Palermo.
39:01As regards the province of Palermo, the family takes the name of the town where it is located.
39:07Above these families there is a commission made up of people who are called by us
39:17or they were said by us because I am no longer here.
39:22Commission of heads of districts.
39:25These district heads included three families.
39:29Among them, three families had chosen one to represent them on the commission.
39:37The head of the commission in 1980 was Mr. Michele, a Greek.
39:52In 1992, a few months after the Capaci and Via D'Amelio massacres,
39:58Tommaso Buscetta confesses in front of the microphones and cameras of TG1
40:03telling Enzo Biaggi about his choice to dissociate himself from the Sicilian mafia
40:09and to collaborate with justice.
40:12And now let's begin our conversation.
40:17Tommaso Buscetta, how does a former mafioso who has spoken out live?
40:24Anguished, full of a thousand fears.
40:27When a collaborator of justice speaks, the speech he makes is naturally different
40:33from that of the mafioso in charge, in the sense that he did not cooperate with justice.
40:38Even if the co-worker continues to send messages, because it is in his culture,
40:45because he has lived in this mafia culture since he was a boy.
40:51What does dome mean?
40:52Dome means every three families, if we understand what families are.
40:59Are families groups?
41:01Of the groups.
41:01How many people generally?
41:05It can range from 300 to 50, there is no stability.
41:11How many mafiosi are there in Sicily?
41:15How many people in Sicily are not mafiosi?
41:18You have to ask me.
41:19No, how many mafiosi are there in Sicily?
41:21Well, back to the dome.
41:22So the dome?
41:23The dome is where every three families gather and elect a leader who will represent them.
41:32in the provincial commission.
41:35The provincial commission was headed by the Greek lord, Michele Greco.
41:43So when I talk about the dome he was the first to understand what it is and it is not a mistake
41:51murder in Sicily without the dome, that it was not me who invented the word
42:00dome, but it was the newspapers, I the commission meets and decides what will be done
42:12in the future or what will be done tomorrow.
42:16Nothing can be done without the commission's permission.
42:25Lina massacred her family members, children, brothers-in-law, relatives, to force Buscetta not to talk.
42:48Buscetta, despite the massacre he committed against his family, continued to speak.
42:55If she catches a mafioso, she says but this one is an ignoramus, it's ridiculous.
43:02But all these ignoramuses put together are a huge army, because among themselves
43:14there are those watertight bulkheads where nothing leaks.
43:20Mafiosi are not terrorists, I have nothing against terrorists, I don't want to offend them, but
43:26the terrorists had an ideal, they had an ideal, at that point it was over for them
43:33war, the mafioso doesn't, the mafioso passes down his children.
43:38Buscetta needed to find allies, to explain even to the mafiosi themselves, to those
43:47of course not to the leaders, but we tell the common people that by staying with Riina and the others
43:53the end would have been negative.
43:56The state bodies have not understood that the mafia is an agent that does not resemble itself
44:03The mafia is not like any other bandit in the world, be it Russian, Colombian or Argentine.
44:11to no one, the mafia, our thing is unique, there is no imitation because no one can
44:17to imitate him.
44:18he wasn't wrong because then we see how all the Corleonesi leaders ended up,
44:24by now all that was in the race was the Corleonesi group and it was practically destroyed.
44:30Buscetta speaks because he needs to defend himself, he needs to find allies, he was embraced
44:37from Riina and the others.
44:40What prompted you to speak first with Police Commissioner De Gennaro and then with Falcone?
44:47Why did he talk to them?
44:49There were neither first nor second, I spoke with them, with Dr. De Gennaro
44:53and with Giovanni Falcone on the same date, in the same period.
44:58Doctor De Gennaro was an active part of the interrogations I underwent through
45:06Doctor Falcone.
45:07Did he trust them?
45:09I had a lot of confidence, at least in the early days we were starting to study each other.
45:23One day you said to Falcone, let's decide which of us two should die first, why?
45:31Giovanni Falcone, poor thing, who in peace and rest, wanted to take a path that spoke
45:39of politics. If it's already a problem to talk about Cosa Nostra, why is there no evidence, why
45:48there are no membership cards, there are no notary deeds, if it is already a difficulty to speak
45:55about the mafia, I guess we're talking a little about politics. Where's the evidence? It would have been like having us
46:03I or he invented things, that's why I never spoke, I have no qualms, I don't
46:09I would have been hesitant to talk about politics if they were supported by evidence, but I
46:15I have no proof. Why does the chain of murders continue with Borsellino? I can tell you this,
46:45And these are historical facts. Whoever stood in the way of the Corleonesi is dead.
47:20Domazio, are you still a mafioso? Well, if by mafioso you mean a man who has only one
47:30word, which has dignity, that even if they are called repentant, but I am not at all
47:36repentant, even if he is a collaborator of justice. How do you define yourself, collaborator?
47:41of justice? I define myself as a man disappointed by the mafia, a man who has lent
47:48so, so much contribution to the mafia and who sees his children killed in nothing, disappearing
47:54into nothing. I don't think there would be any father who could continue to live in an environment
48:02like this one. Gaetano Badalamenti, on the other hand, chooses a TV interview for other purposes.
48:14Dontano, aka Dontano, the historic boss of Cinisi. Dontano spoke in front of the cameras of Tg1 in 1997.
48:22little, but it's enough to demonstrate his choice of silence. He wants to make me understand
48:29that she feels like the victim of a plot against her? Yes, I don't want her to understand,
48:38I say. Someone had an interest in Gaetano Badalamenti no longer counting, in Gaetano Badalamenti
48:46he ended up in trouble, in prison. I can't tell you that, how can I tell you? That's what
48:54She said, she talked about the plot. I didn't talk about the plot, she told me.
49:02I'm alive but I don't speak, Dontano, detained in the United States after a sentence, seems to say
49:09for international drug trafficking, the one relating to the Pizza Connection trial,
49:15the largest drug trafficking between Italy and the United States.
49:20In Italy, you are indicated by many witnesses and by many collaborators of justice as
49:26the boss of the bosses of Cosa Nostra who was put down, who was removed in 78 because he opposed the
49:34Coroleonesi's drug dealings, that is, an enemy of drugs. Then she in the United States
49:40United States, Gaetano Badalamenti himself, was convicted of drug charges. Can you explain this to us?
49:44contradiction. It's difficult for me to explain, maybe you could explain it better than me.
49:51me. Meanwhile in Italy I am being described by a person who has nothing to do with
50:04drugs, but also from the United States.
50:11In the following years Badalamenti will also be condemned by the Italian justice system as the instigator
50:18of the murder of Peppino Impastato, which occurred in Cinisi in 1978. Impastato had reported
50:26in a radio broadcast the illicit activities of Dontano, who was revered in the town
50:32and feared by all.
50:37The penditi must provide the evidence, Mr. President. The penditi must not say, or
50:42You come to tell me, but there is more than one person who says it. Mr. President, what the hell?
50:46'And
50:46more than one? That they are all improvised and managed.
50:57Rina speaks little, because he must now be carved out for this role of maintaining it
51:02until the end of death, that is, of the true leader who remains silent until the end, until the
51:08threshold of the tomb, of death, he will remain silent.
51:14So it's not as verbose as the acts are, if we put the different things in a row, Liggio,
51:21Badalamenti, Cutolo, Piromalli, these people speak much more than Rina does. Rina
51:28when he speaks he sends messages, let's not forget that there was a famous trial, if I remember correctly
51:33bad was in Reggio Calabria, when he said, ah but these people accuse me of being communists, these
51:37toll booths, harlacks, Violante, what was that?
51:41That is, I am the communists who carry out these things, Mr. Violanti, Mr. Caselli
51:47from Palermo, that is, a whole conspiracy, everything that revolves around these things, they bring
51:54Let's move on with these things. This is what we have, this is what this government is about. If they have to look at these things...
51:58attacks, that is, communists.
52:01It's clearly a message, individual targets, so he was telling his people, these are the men
52:06that must be eliminated, that must be destroyed. He has rarely given interviews.
52:13because his role as leader, old-fashioned, old-fashioned, prevents him from being able to speak.
52:20So much so that the last things he says, he says to his companion who is doing outdoor exercise.
52:26under Article 41 bis, he never tells them to a journalist or other people, he simply reveals them
52:33then whether they are intercepted by the judicial authorities is a whole other matter, therefore
52:37we know those things because, but even there they are never conversations, they are always snippets
52:42of speech that you have to decode and interpret.
52:58Provenzano in particular used an instrument that seemed pre-modern, which were the famous
53:04notes, but which in reality allowed him to go on for 20 years without ever being
53:12wiretapped. Everyone was wiretapped except him, because he wasn't talking to anyone,
53:28he simply used that typewriter to send notes.
53:44And with that instrument, apparently ancient and archaic, but instead very modern, he succeeded
53:52to govern Cosa Nostra, to give advice to the mafiosi who asked him for advice, to govern
53:59that group of very important figures of Cosa Nostra without uttering a word to his people,
54:05Let's imagine it to others. It's a modern tool and it's a tool that has made it possible
54:11that Provenzano could keep the waters calm, because the mandate that he once had was
54:20was killed, probably by himself, Rina, was to save Cosa Nostra with the submersion,
54:27that is, working at the water's edge below the water line and not exposing oneself as had previously been the case.
54:35This operation was successful in Provenzano, and it was also possible thanks to this instrument.
54:42Therefore, the relationships and means of disseminating thought are different from one mafioso to another.
54:55Those who have never spoken in an interview are the two most famous bosses of Cosa Nostra,
55:01Totò Riina and Bernardo Provenzano, who over the years have chosen different ways to make their voices heard
55:08his own voice. Riina expresses himself with few, focused words. Provenzano uses messages
55:15written on pieces of paper, delivered by hand. Few copies of them remain.
55:21and confusing information, thanks above all to environmental interceptions. Both are affected
55:28life imprisonment under Article 41 bis. Both still appear to respect the code of silence and omertà.
55:58Thank you all.
56:15Thank you all.
Commenti