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Ollie’s Live looks at the political uncertainty facing Birmingham after no party won overall control of the city council. With leadership talks continuing, the programme asks who could end up running Britain’s second city, what deals may be needed, and what it all means for residents.
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00:24Welcome to Oli's Live and part two of this local election special.
00:29Where in Birmingham there is no single party in control of the city.
00:34That's for 14 years now.
00:36This week we will be considering what this means for the future governance of the city.
00:41And to help us with that analysis we have two very seasoned local politicians with us today.
00:49We have Khalid Bhamud, a former MP and local councillor.
00:53And Ewan Mackie, a former Conservative Deputy Leader of Birmingham City Council.
00:58Thank you for joining us. It's great to have you back on the show.
01:03First of all, this question is to Khalid.
01:07Clearly in Birmingham there's a reform effect.
01:11Why do you think reform are able to speak to the public in such an effective way?
01:18They speak the people's language. That's what they've decided to do.
01:23They are connecting with the working people.
01:26They are moving away some of the issues around the environment, which predominantly have been seen anti-car.
01:34They are moving away from the so-called woke agenda, which is titling people that are having to work.
01:41So they actually go out and work as opposed to people that don't have to go to work.
01:46There is a big disconnect with people who have to earn a living, go out there and work and do
01:52something.
01:52And there's been a big disconnect of local authorities providing a service.
01:57When you get officers at home, working from home, that face time that needed to be happening with the local
02:05constituents doesn't happen anymore.
02:07So you're left only with the councillors trying to address that.
02:10And I think there's been a big, I think, sort of disconnect with the locally elected councillors.
02:17And I think that's part of the reason why the whole thing's fallen down.
02:21So, Ewan, clear result or confusion?
02:24Well, the electorate knew what they wanted and it's for the elected councillors in Birmingham City Council to now make
02:33sense of that
02:34and deliver services for all the residents of Birmingham City Council, really.
02:40It's a whole new world for them in that chamber and we'll see who the grown-ups are, I think.
02:48Yes. So that's a bit of both there, isn't it? Confusion and clarity.
02:52Yes.
02:54There's a lot to put right now in the city.
02:57I mean, we've previously spoken about an array of issues, but where does one start?
03:04What do you think, first of all, Ewan, should be the top three issues to be immediately addressed to get
03:12things back on course in the city?
03:14The first one, to me, is the government has just pulled the PFI on the roads,
03:20which basically means that the government was giving Birmingham City Council £50 million a year,
03:27of which Birmingham City Council was putting another £50 in.
03:30And basically, that was £100 million being spent on our roads.
03:35The government has pulled that deal and that's a crisis for the roads in this city
03:42because you consider they're in a terrible state already
03:45and then you've got to say, what is the sort of private finance initiative?
03:53What's that private money going to do to that?
03:55Because obviously, they're expecting a longer return, so there could be a lot of confusion there.
03:59But then the basics as well, the bins dispute needs to be resolved.
04:03We need to get recycling levels back up to what is at least acceptable,
04:08never mind trying to get best in class.
04:11And then we need to have grass needs to be cut.
04:13These are just basic things for people to be proud of their areas,
04:18never mind before you get jobs and all the other things.
04:20So the roads, the bins and restoring faith in public services, are those your three?
04:26The first one, definitely, I think collecting the bins is very important.
04:30Every household uses that one service.
04:34There are people who might do social services,
04:37there might people use education or other issues that they have,
04:40planning and those sort of things.
04:41But every single citizen, every single household needs their bins clearing.
04:47And that is a big failure that needed to be addressed and we should be addressed.
04:50Secondly, for me, I think the anti-car policies that have continued against the people of Birmingham,
04:58making their lives even more difficult,
05:00but paying huge amounts of sums to those, the poorest of all the constituents,
05:06whose cars didn't comply.
05:08And I've seen people with huge funds when I was a member of parliament coming to me
05:12and see what mistakes they made and how they could get around that.
05:16That was a huge penalising of the poorest people that we had in the city and this still goes on.
05:22So those two issues, I think it's important that we deal with that.
05:26But thirdly, is that we need to face-to-face services for the people of Birmingham
05:30to be able to get the complaints across and not through a phone system that's not answered
05:35or an email that gets even less answered.
05:38And so I think those two issues is that people need to make themselves available
05:42to provide that public service, which are all the municipalities are here to do.
05:48So I think what we've got there is a package of complaints that we hear from a lot of people.
05:53So do you think people were voting for anything,
05:55or do you think those perhaps are voting against things, Ewan?
06:00Absolutely.
06:00I think basically, if you look at the number of Labour councillors who were not elected,
06:08I think only three cabinet members made it back in.
06:11So, you know, undoubtedly, it was an election lost by Labour.
06:16And then it was a question of who did they vote from there?
06:19Who did they trust?
06:20And you could see that there's only one party over 20 out of 101.
06:28Everyone else is just below 20.
06:30So there's more of a cavalry charge, I think,
06:33than actually any one horse getting past the post first.
06:38A lot of the councillors that have been elected, they're actually new.
06:43They've never been councillors before, especially reform.
06:46Are we getting the right skills or are we training our councillors to the right level?
06:51I mean, let's face it, Birmingham City Council is a multi-million pound industry
06:56and it does require a certain level of skills.
06:59Are we getting it right?
07:00First to you, Khalid.
07:02I don't think we're getting it right.
07:04I think that's the reason why the votes happened the way they did.
07:07There was a huge discontentment with the Labour Party.
07:10They've been running for 14 years and people want to make that clear.
07:14What they weren't sure of is where they wanted to go.
07:17And I think that's one of the reasons why the Green Party have got a significant amount of votes.
07:24Somebody that's totally untested.
07:26Somebody that doesn't really...
07:27People are still trying to find out where this stands locally,
07:31apart from what the issues that they've highlighted nationally or internationally in some instances.
07:38So I think where you've got people who are drawing on some of the heartstrings of people on international issues
07:46rather than concentrating on local issues, I think that's played a big role in that.
07:50And I think that is some of the things that we need to come back on and start to address
07:54people,
07:55that it's what services they provide locally for this.
07:59That's what councils are about, providing local services and getting your bins cleaned.
08:04And to you, Ewan, have our councillors or did historically our councillors have the right skill set to run Birmingham
08:12City Council?
08:13No, you're looking at the Labour group.
08:16I mean, no, I think the Labour group have probably been in too long.
08:19I think probably start to run out of talent quite early.
08:23But I would say ultimately Birmingham City Council was a £4 billion organisation.
08:28If it was a company, it would be the FTSE 100.
08:32So a way any council, if it works properly, is that the officers advise,
08:41the ruling group comes up with its policies and priorities,
08:44and the officers are supposed to implement.
08:47So, you know, you don't have to be a university degree in economics to be the finance cabinet member,
08:55you know, because you're supposed to be able to rely on your officers to do that.
08:59But what you're saying is what your priorities are.
09:04I think that it's not all despair.
09:06I mean, you say that everyone is new in reform.
09:10Yes, they are.
09:11But I think they're said that they're not going to work to form a new administration.
09:15So that takes them out of the equation.
09:18You've got Council Roaldon, the leader of the Conservative group.
09:21He's been around a long time.
09:23I sat next to him many times in cabinet, and he understands the finances.
09:28You know how it works.
09:29You've got Roger Harmer, who's been the now leader of the Liberal Democrats group.
09:34He's got a degree in economics, so he knows his way around a balance sheet.
09:38You know, you've got two individuals there.
09:40You've got Julian Pritchard, who's the leader of the Greens.
09:43He's been in for two terms.
09:45He's got a grip now of how the Council works.
09:48So as leaders go, there is talent to do that.
09:52If they can sit down and come up with a, shall we say, a solution for the residents of Birmingham,
09:59because that's what they've been elected for, if they can come up with something,
10:03I think Birmingham could come out of this all the better.
10:05But you said you can run out of talent.
10:08You said the Labour group would run out of talent.
10:10And then you went on to outline the great skill sets of all the other party leaders.
10:15But you never mentioned Jex Parkin as the leader of reform, who's got no experience,
10:20and therefore he's not run out of anything.
10:22So shouldn't we make him leave the Council and have done with it?
10:25Because he's got no talent.
10:26He's got no experience.
10:28Yeah, well, I mean, he said he doesn't want to, didn't he?
10:31Because he's come out and said, sort of in the news, to say that, well, he said that no one
10:38would form an administration with them.
10:41I know from speaking to my colleagues in the Conservative Party, no one has spoken to them.
10:46Now, I'm not saying they would have gone into it or they wouldn't.
10:49But he hadn't spoken to them.
10:51I think he ended up by saying that no one will form an administration with us,
10:56and not that he wanted to form one anyway.
10:58So they're not there.
11:01I mean, I think one of my ex-colleagues said they've given up already,
11:05which may or may not be a bit harsh, depending on your politics.
11:07But they're not in the running because they've said they don't want it.
11:10So you're down to the remainder of councillors there to do what the residents have asked them to do,
11:18and that is run the council efficiently.
11:20Is it a poison chalice?
11:22No, I mean, it's not simple.
11:26Sorry, so I should rephrase that.
11:28It's not complicated.
11:29It's quite simple.
11:30You know, a lot of it's statutory, and the remainder of it is, you know,
11:34is just basic common sense of, you know, collecting bins, doing roads,
11:39in just making sure that, you know, you balance your budget.
11:43We want to further analyse the results of the recent Birmingham local elections
11:50and consider the significance of these elections in the future governance of this city.
11:56Indeed, a number of financial crises have significantly affected Birmingham's ability
12:01to deliver services, bankruptcy, equal pay liabilities, a failed IT system,
12:07and more have led to deteriorating infrastructure, reduced services, and the sale of city assets.
12:14Ewan, are further cuts now inevitable?
12:19No, I mean, a council has two jobs.
12:22One is to come up with a balanced budget, and the second one is to implement it.
12:27So many problems of Birmingham City Council has been where they've overspent in one area
12:33and then had to make a cut in another.
12:37If the budget is implemented correctly, there will be no cuts.
12:43And then you will then actually see, believe it or not, investment and actually improvements in areas.
12:50But if you carry on overspending, things are just going to, other areas are going to get cut.
12:55But the things that normally get cut are the things that affect people, sadly.
12:59So Labour fixed the system before they left then?
13:02No, because the budget still didn't balance, believe it or not, when they left,
13:06because they were still overspending, they were still using reserves at the end of this term.
13:11It is for the new administration, whoever that may be, whatever form that takes,
13:17to stick to their budget and implement it.
13:21If they do that, they can actually enjoy running the council.
13:24Khalid, this sort of overspend kind of approach to local government, that's really not on, is it?
13:32How did Labour get that so wrong?
13:35I think the big problem across all local and national government is the issue of procurement,
13:42which is totally out of control.
13:45The local authority pays something like three times more, in some instances, a lot more than that, for the procurement.
13:51And in contracting, we are just absolutely absurdly high.
13:56We give different contracts.
13:58The HS2, just to give you an example, when I first sat on the bill in 2013,
14:03the total budget to Scotland was £50 billion plus £4 billion contingency.
14:08Just to Birmingham now, it's £120 billion.
14:12We don't look at how the contracts progress.
14:14There are no audits on that, and there are no surveyors that control the budget and should do that on
14:21contracting.
14:22We need to get Birmingham City Council as an example of that.
14:26Control the costs, stop going over budgets, and I think you'll make a difference.
14:31Will a few new, really good accountants kind of address that point?
14:37No, no, really.
14:38I mean, basically, councillors ultimately have to make their priorities on the right planet,
14:46come up with something that's achievable and can be delivered,
14:49and then the officers have to deliver that.
14:51It's really quite simple, and it probably took some real effort to get to the mess that the council's in
14:58at the moment.
14:58So, if it's really quite simple, has Birmingham developed a political culture that really no longer works?
15:05And can it be fixed?
15:07I think that there needs to be probably a bit more honesty from the Labour group to the residents of
15:13Birmingham about what it could deliver.
15:15I think it'd be making promises that the council couldn't cash,
15:18and that at the end of the day, it meant that other areas were being cut.
15:22And, you know, in the end, the residents decided they didn't like that and voted for other people.
15:27You know, we can't really punish his party any more, can we, in Birmingham?
15:32Well, I mean, you know, the residents have spoken, and they'd vote for who they want.
15:36I mean, politics is a brutal game, and when you get into it...
15:41How could they not have harassed the extent of the problem?
15:45That is a fundamental problem.
15:46Mr Orley would know that because he held the main security and scrutiny in the council,
15:53and he was kept it as a tight ship.
15:55One of the problems of changing the cabinet system has been that scrutiny has been lost by councillors.
16:03Now the cabinet member makes the decision, and sometime later you'll scrutinise it.
16:09It's too late.
16:10It's too politically party-driven.
16:12There should be other parties that are scrutinising which should not be as part of the ruling party to deal
16:19with that.
16:19And I think, to a large extent, where in the old system it had to go through a committee,
16:24I think that should be brought back, to a large extent, to hold people accountable.
16:29And that is where the council would then much more able to deal with that sort of scrutiny which is
16:35needed,
16:36and look at procurement, look at contracting, and look at how the money's run over,
16:40and why is it going over budget.
16:42I think there has to be a structural change to let people to understand.
16:46Power's been focused too much in too few people, predominantly the cabinet.
16:52And certainly with the coalition, one would think that the scrutiny of our expansion will actually improve.
16:59Interesting point.
17:00Well, I think if there is going to be a coalition,
17:02then there's going to be a coalition in the scrutiny area as well, isn't there?
17:06But you're not going to have, I believe, when Labour was controlling the City U,
17:11and I'm sure you can put me right if I'm wrong,
17:13but were not all the scrutiny chairs Labour chairs?
17:16Yeah, we'd all argued many times that there should be scrutiny chairs from other parties.
17:24The make-up of the scrutiny committees are proportional to the number of councillors in the chamber.
17:38And they're not supposed to be whipped, but let me tell you, they are.
17:42Surely not, Ewan.
17:43Yeah, it is.
17:44But I think where I agree with Khaled is that you have the cabinet making the decisions,
17:50and they're obviously talking to the officers.
17:54And then there has been, for many sort of years, the actual rank-and-file members.
18:00There's a managing of them, if you know what I mean, pushing them off to one side.
18:04You might be doing these show scrutinies, and a scrutiny will pull a lever,
18:08but that lever's not connected to a pulley.
18:10And so nothing's really happening.
18:13The scrutiny departments are one of the first ones to be cut.
18:17You've got hardly any officers there.
18:18You'll find that the work programme is agreed in May,
18:22so they'll be agreeing their work programme for the year.
18:25So, you know, if something goes to hell in a handcart,
18:28if I can use that phrase in December,
18:31the scrutiny programme won't change.
18:35And there'll certainly be sort of after May that they'll come back to have a look at that.
18:38So, you know, there's a lot of reform to be done.
18:41So, the question was, if I may, with a coalition, which looks likely or is inevitable,
18:47I would suggest, is you're going to have chairs from different parties in the scrutiny mix.
18:54Would you think that's going to improve matters there?
18:58Yeah, I think it can only be a good thing.
19:01You haven't got an omnipresent party executive coming down on their scrutiny chairs,
19:07telling them what they should be doing, ultimately.
19:10But ultimately, we do need a very, very strong leader.
19:15Kali, what sort of qualities do you think the future leader requires in order to get this right?
19:22Understand the policies that the group wants to deliver
19:24and make sure they hold the officers to account and how it's delivered
19:29and it shouldn't overrun.
19:31And that should be your principle.
19:32And why do you say that?
19:34Why do you need to hold officers to account?
19:36Because, obviously, as Ewan said, they've not been held to account.
19:39All budgets for the last few foreseeable years that we've had,
19:45budgets have continuously overrun.
19:47They've overrun since we declared ourselves bankrupt in Birmingham.
19:50So, obviously, something's going wrong.
19:52So, I think there does need to be a clear, I think, justification by the officers
19:57of the work they do and why it overruns.
20:00Do you think the officer corps have become more powerful in Birmingham?
20:05Yes, absolutely.
20:06I mean, sorry, Bob Kerslake said that in his report.
20:08And I think nobody's taken notice of that.
20:11And partly because they are too powerful and partly because the council leaders
20:16were not prepared to address that issue.
20:18And that needed to be addressed.
20:20And I think it has to be that they have to be accountable.
20:23That's the whole idea of going through these elections that we've gone through.
20:26Yeah, yeah.
20:28If we forget hearty labels for the moment,
20:31what does Birmingham as a city actually need now?
20:37We're very divisive and I'll start with Khalid on this one.
20:42What do we need to get this back on course?
20:45We need to look at the interest of Birmingham as a city,
20:49as a great city that it has been.
20:51We need to bring you back to that level.
20:53And all the councillors on the council need to look at how we can best improve
20:58the services and delivery for the people and move forward on that.
21:02It's got to be about the people who live in the city.
21:05It's got to be regeneration of businesses in this city.
21:08It's got to be supporting people who are least able to look after and defend themselves.
21:13So those three criteria we need to be able to do to deliver and move forward
21:17and understand what this city means to a lot of people.
21:21It's a phenomenal city and we should bring you back to that glory.
21:24Ewan, very quickly.
21:26Luckily, Birmingham as a city is far bigger than the council.
21:30The city is doing amazingly well.
21:32It's the council that's failing.
21:34Bob Kerslake, two things that stood out for me.
21:38One is that Birmingham City Council does things to people, not for them.
21:42And the other thing that was said is that there are officers who think there are councillors
21:46and councillors who think they've been officers and that's never been addressed.
21:49Ewan, just asking you to swap hats in a way with Callie,
21:54what would you say that was done well in the last four or five years
21:58by the Labour administration in Birmingham?
22:01The Commonwealth Games was an amazing success.
22:04It was a distraction for the council in terms of instead of focusing on their budget,
22:10they said they would never touch the revenue account.
22:13Oh, they did.
22:14And so the people of Birmingham paid for that.
22:16But the Commonwealth Games was a success, but maybe it wasn't a great thing for the council.
22:23Did we capitalise on that as a city?
22:26Well, the Atlantic Stadium is best in class.
22:28It's absolutely amazing.
22:32The reputation of Birmingham, I think, worldwide has improved.
22:36I don't know any of the numbers, but I could imagine if you were looking to invest in the city,
22:40you could see plenty to invest in.
22:45It's just obviously the reputational damage from the council hasn't helped that, I must admit.
22:50Thank you both.
22:51You've been absolutely amazing.
22:54And as usual, it's always good to talk, isn't it?
22:57I think I've learnt so much about what we need to do as a city moving forward.
23:02Well, that's all we've got time for, unfortunately.
23:05Thank you for being with us.
23:07And thank you to you at home for watching the show.
23:10I think thank you as well for the candid approach.
23:13It's useful having people who are no longer actually embedded in politics.
23:17Grandees!
23:18Thank you both.
23:19And thank you to the audience.
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