00:00If you compare General Secretary Toh Lam's speech and Secretary of War Hexer's speech,
00:06what comes to your mind here at the Shangri-La Dialogue?
00:09Well, rather different visions of the Indo-Pacific.
00:12I must say that Hexer's speech was much more concrete,
00:18enumerating the American allies in the region and their defense efforts.
00:24President Lam was very much about general guidelines.
00:29What was very interesting to me that he mentioned UNCLOS specifically,
00:34so rules-based order is an issue for many nations here in the region.
00:40They, as middle powers, very much rely and depend on the respect of international law,
00:46and they want this to be the foundation of foreign policy and security policy in the region.
00:53So Hexer's called this empty globalist rhetoric about the roots-based international order a distraction,
01:02which Europe has followed too long and Asia should not follow.
01:06Do you agree with this statement?
01:08Well, I think it's a little bit over-exaggerated.
01:13We need to understand that, of course, there are always national interests in play when it comes to security matters.
01:19And there's an understanding here in the region that the domestic systems of governments should not refrain us from cooperating.
01:31And I think this realistic approach is very much appreciated by the nations here,
01:37and that's why the American strategy is very much valid.
01:41At the same time, there needs to be a decent level of respect for international law,
01:48and all the nations in the Pacific do not want to be lectured or pushed around by great powers.
02:00And that's why the American vision of an equilibrium of forces, of respect of domestic systems of governments is very
02:11much pertinent.
02:13At the same time, there's an expectation here in the region that not only the hard security dimension of the
02:22relationship should be well managed,
02:24but also the softer part, meaning the economic dimension.
02:28And there, of course, Trump's tariff policy has triggered some antagonism and some frustration.
02:41Recently, I accompanied Minister Pistorius to Japan, Singapore and Australia,
02:45and he talked a lot about finding like-minded partners to work together.
02:48So, what would you say are the like-minded partners, the most important like-minded partners in Asia for Germany
02:55and Europe,
02:55and how can you work together?
02:58Well, of course, there are major partners like South Korea, Japan, Singapore, of course, Australia, New Zealand.
03:05They are like-minded and they share the same system of government.
03:11They are democracies based on rule of law.
03:14We have lots of partners where we sense that they want to cooperate, although we might differ on some domestic
03:22issues.
03:23Vietnam is a good case in point.
03:26There might be no deep military cooperation or civil society cooperation possible with a country like Vietnam,
03:35but economic cooperation and a common denominator in terms of respect for international law is a good basis for our
03:43relationship with nations like that.
03:46And that's why we will see a sort of different circles of partnerships arising.
03:53So, there's a core which is allies and allies that are non-official allies like Japan or Australia.
04:03And then we have a lot of countries around the region where we want to engage in different dimensions of
04:10cooperation,
04:11and we want to deepen that also in the field of military cooperation.
04:16That was one of the aspects of Minister Pistorius' trip through the region.
04:22Are there any thoughts to institutionalize this new agreement with new partners?
04:27Well, for the time being, this is all happening on a bilateral basis.
04:30Of course, we encourage regional integration, as is the case with ASEAN.
04:36And we also see that ASEAN is taking a more important role in security matters,
04:43at least in terms of mediation in regional conflicts.
04:47And Germany has gained observer status to the ASEAN's Defence Minister's meeting working groups,
04:56and we would like to continue that.
04:58Do you think that arms deals and these bilateral talks are enough to establish or to strengthen the new international
05:07global order?
05:09It's a very good start, because we need to elaborate on institutional frameworks with these middle powers across the globe,
05:18not only on our own continent in Europe or in North America.
05:21And so we should try to figure out what the exact framework can be in the case of Latin American
05:29countries or Asian countries or African countries.
05:33Of course, we always prefer to have regional integration partners available,
05:39especially when it comes to market access issues and economic issues.
05:44That's the case with Mercosur and ASEAN.
05:48And in the broader sense, we will very much depend on bilateral frameworks.
05:54And the more specific arrangements we can add in an existing bilateral relationship, the better.
06:05And that's what we are doing with Japan.
06:07That's what we are also exploring with Australia when it comes to specific force of status questions.
06:16So it's a step-by-step approach. And no big institutional founding moment.
06:26Okay. So there is this perception by China that the systemic rival, as the European Union has called it,
06:33is like it's trying to encircle or it's against China. Do you share this view?
06:40No, we are working on all the three dimensions in our relationship with China.
06:47So there is, of course, a systemic rivalry coming up because of diverging systems of governance.
06:54And we have to acknowledge that.
06:56There is economic competition going on, as is going on between other countries in the world.
07:02We are well aware of that even with the US or some European partners.
07:06We are sometimes competing for the same markets.
07:10And then there is also the need for cooperation when it comes to global common goods, like protecting our climate.
07:20And we want to play on all these dimensions.
07:23And we will see to which extent China is open to cooperate and to engage in the multilateral system.
07:33We see that there is a lot of general guidelines that are pronounced by the Chinese government.
07:40And we are eager to continue the conversation with them on all these accounts.
07:46Thanks everyone.
07:47Mark, Mark, Mark, Mark, Mark, Mark.
07:48Mark, Mark, Mark, Mark, Mark, Mark.
07:50Mark, Mark, Mark, Mark, Mark, Mark, Mark.
07:50Mark, Mark, Mark, Mark, Mark, Mark, Mark, Mark, Mark, Mark, Mark.
07:51You
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