- 2 days ago
In the second episode of Culture&… by Inc. Arabia, a four-part webinar series examining how workplace culture impacts organizations and the people within them, Anas Abbar, CEO of 7awi Media Group, sits down with Gulneet Chadha, Corporate HR and Wellness Consultant, for a conversation on how narcissistic leaders and toxic bosses impact both businesses and employees.
In this episode, Chadha explores the qualities of narcissistic leaders, how ego affects leadership, and what that means for workplace cultures.
Watch the full episode to hear more of Chadha’s insights on the impact of narcissistic leaders on workplaces.
In this episode, Chadha explores the qualities of narcissistic leaders, how ego affects leadership, and what that means for workplace cultures.
Watch the full episode to hear more of Chadha’s insights on the impact of narcissistic leaders on workplaces.
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00:00A narcissistic boss, very confident, they are the ones to shove it under the carpet.
00:06You put a crown on a clown and expect them to behave as a king.
00:10It's never about the skill, it's about the personality.
00:21Is confidence in leadership often mistaken for narcissism?
00:25Have you worked for a boss who made everything about themselves, even your own success?
00:31Is it true toxic bosses hire for control, not for talent?
00:37And have you noticed how narcissistic leaders take credit in public but assign blame in private?
00:46Welcome back, Ghanit. It's always a pleasure seeing you.
00:50Thank you so much.
00:51Our previous conversation was more about the toxic workplaces and environment.
00:58Today we're spinning, but not too far from that, the toxic bosses.
01:04Let me jump into the first question.
01:08What are some of the signs that employees miss about a narcissistic leader or boss?
01:16Is it something that they don't notice or they just hope to avoid that something will pass?
01:25What are some of the signs that you look for?
01:27Right.
01:28So I will start with explaining what are the characteristics of a narcissistic boss.
01:35So you'll find these people exceptionally charming, very confident, and they are literally in the front of senior management.
01:46High performers.
01:47Now, don't get me wrong.
01:48Not all high performers, very confident people with excellent communication skills are narcissists.
01:56But basically what lies beneath is special traits of a narcissist boss, which is where they prioritize ego over people,
02:08control over collaboration, and perspective over reality.
02:15So it's that fine trait where once they enter the organization, they start looking for people and establish control softly.
02:28Like, how can I make you feel insecure all the time so that you value me?
02:35You look up to me not for you to learn from me, but to save your career.
02:41These are some of the soft things like people go silent in their meetings because they're very assertive.
02:47But they're very assertive in a very diplomatic way.
02:50And they're high performers.
02:52So what do we have in terms of challenge or challenging their behavior or the standards or the output that
03:04they produce for the organization?
03:06Very little because they are always achieving.
03:09And that's the, I guess, the challenge is that they're performing.
03:14But on the long run, the impact is much worse than the short-term gain.
03:21They thrive in organizations which are focused on short-term gains.
03:27Organizations that value output over long-term stability is a perfect place for them to thrive.
03:35You know, it's a scary point when you mentioned that they are the friendly people, but deep inside, that's not
03:44what they are.
03:45Because we tend to trust people who are smiling in our face, right, and saying the right thing in front
03:53of us.
03:54Well, the strategy has changed.
03:57These bosses no longer shout to be assertive.
04:00They are quiet and they are quietly manipulating people.
04:04So if they get somebody, and this is very common, whenever we have a narcissist leader, you will always see
04:14people who are yes men around them.
04:19They don't challenge because they don't like to be challenged.
04:22And often you will find that whenever there's a win, it's their win.
04:28It's not a team member's win.
04:30And whenever there's any failure, it's team's failure.
04:33They point the finger at them.
04:35So they internalize success.
04:38But what they are basically trying to do is they are externalizing the blame, guilt, because they want to keep
04:46people on their toes all the time.
04:49And do you think that they knowingly know this?
04:52Or are there some who actually, you know, they don't know that they're doing this?
04:57So this is very interesting.
04:58I'll tell you now, coming from a psychological perspective, narcissists are self-loathing.
05:05Now what does it mean?
05:06They hate themselves internally, on the subconscious level.
05:11It's always that thought of, I'm not enough.
05:14I'm not good enough.
05:15I don't feel that I deserve this.
05:19So, you know, that's a very self-loathing tendency.
05:22And this is what they are subconsciously projecting onto other people in order to wear a mask.
05:29So it's simply like you are a character on the stage.
05:35You know you're not that person.
05:37And now what you're trying to do is in order for you to hide whatever you have inside, you put
05:46up an act.
05:48So, I mean, do they know that they're projecting toxicity in an organization or, you know, they feel like this
05:57is part of my job and I'm doing what's right?
06:00It's a very high self-justifying trait that they possess.
06:05Now let's not talk about the subconscious level because people may or may not be aware of what they hold
06:12in their subconscious.
06:13But consciously, they know they need to win and they are constantly manipulating.
06:19So they can justify saying that all is fair if you want to succeed.
06:26What route you take doesn't matter because the end goal matters.
06:30So you'll often hear these sentences from them where they justify their act to prove themselves right.
06:38Regardless what the consequences are.
06:40So, like, let's say if a team member challenges them, that person is soon out because that person will be
06:47labeled difficult.
06:49Wow.
06:50Yeah.
06:50And there are only two options left for that individual who's now on the challenging front saying that I don't
06:58like this.
07:00And there are only two options, whether they continue to fight or they go quiet.
07:07So it's mostly the second scenario that people adopt because, okay, I'll do it your way because I'm then here
07:16from 9 to 5.
07:17So they stop going outside their comfort zone.
07:21They stick to 9 to 5 and they don't try more than what they're expected to do.
07:27How often do you see this from your vast experience in HR?
07:33How often do these scenarios come across to you?
07:37So from HR perspective, it's usually very late when you get to know.
07:42And that's often when the complaints pile up.
07:45You see a huge turnover in the department.
07:48And you start questioning yourself, like, are we missing on a gray area which exists in the department?
07:57Do we have a flaw in hiring?
07:59Or we are hiring wrong people?
08:03Yes, we are hiring wrong people because we are hiring people who will say, yes, we are not hiring people
08:10for talent.
08:11We are hiring submissive people who will say yes and will not challenge.
08:17One of the questions that came to me is, is HR truly equipped to handle narcissistic leadership or does it
08:24end up protecting them?
08:26Depends if HR sits on the driving seat.
08:30Then they have a say.
08:31But I will ask you how many organizations you see today where HR actually sits on the driving seat.
08:38Very true.
08:39And if you recall our first episode, we talked about HR being a partner.
08:43Yes.
08:43Truly a partner.
08:44Yes.
08:44And if they are a partner, they might not be in the driver's seat, but they're definitely in the front
08:50and making sure that the organization is healthy enough not to allow for such...
08:57HR, even if they raise a concern, which comes usually from the personality trait, linking all the dots on manpower
09:07turnover, complaints,
09:09the usual behavior of the usual behavior, the usual behavior of that leader, which comes in question, where then there
09:17is a massive conflict between HR and the management.
09:21Because even though HR tries to put their point forward, are they just going to be ignored because top line
09:32is important for us?
09:39So that's where the decision making actually happens.
09:44It's not HR because despite raising these concerns and red flags, what outcome you will have from that conversation that
09:53you will have with the management?
09:59And trust me, when you come to that point where you are thinking of letting this person go, they gain
10:11more power because they have excellent ability of manipulation.
10:17Does this differ from one company to another, like in terms of size, let's say, from your experience, like do
10:25smaller companies have the same challenges as a mid-size or an enterprise companies?
10:32It depends.
10:34It depends.
10:34In a large organization, you usually have a very collaborative approach because otherwise you cannot function.
10:42Whereas in small organizations, a leader can possibly wear multiple hats.
10:49So they can be doing sales, but they also can be doing operations.
10:52So they have a bigger control and the bigger control means more power, more people reporting to them.
10:59So you're actually creating the whole environment where more people report to you and more people are now ready to
11:07dance to your tunes, which becomes more toxic.
11:10In a large organization, because it's a collaborative approach, every department has got strict or defined parameters or efficiencies or
11:23KPIs.
11:24So they often don't overlap with each other.
11:27So the power remains very limited to your department.
11:31It's more decentralized.
11:32It's more structured.
11:34Structured.
11:35It's more, I would say, controlled in a way that if you ever get involved in someone else's department also,
11:43you will be asked to step back because that is someone else's job.
11:49Right.
11:50As compared to a small organization where the lines are literally blurred and you can often gain more power and
11:57control, which also means when, if and when the situation comes that you have to let go of this person,
12:04you're letting go of somebody who basically handles maybe 40% of your overall business sales operations or whatever.
12:13Yeah.
12:14And it becomes a catch-22.
12:15Correct.
12:16So there's a lot to lose.
12:18Yeah.
12:18Right.
12:19If I am, I'm looking at my audience now and saying, if I was this individual who's a head of
12:28an organization, is it time for them to start questioning whether they are a toxic boss or narcissistic leader in
12:40an organization?
12:41And if so, what do they need to do?
12:45I mean, sometimes it's very difficult to be self-critical, but if you are making that decision.
12:51You can understand from the vibe of the department easily.
12:56Like, I would say, a lot of these leaders project confidence.
13:02Now, you will often, and this is very common, there are some leaders who are exceptionally confident and they will
13:08walk into the meeting and say, well, we have this and we need to take this action because I think
13:18that we should proceed in this order.
13:20Now, if I'm telling you a story about this leader, you'll be like, wow, perfect, somebody who can take the
13:26accountability, who knows what they are doing, who's a subject matter expert.
13:30For you, as a founder, this is a perfect scenario and this is a perfect leader.
13:37Right.
13:37To me, it's not.
13:39Because I can't walk into the meeting and say that this is what we are going to do without inviting
13:48any thoughts or even brainstorming with the team.
13:51So, this is where the authority speaks louder than collaboration.
13:57So, the style of leadership.
13:59What is the style of leadership in your organization?
14:02Is it more authoritative?
14:04Is it somebody who has a collaborative approach and sits down in a meeting where everyone is free to express
14:11their ideas and they don't feel that they are under any burden to say yes or agree to this leader?
14:19So, they have an opinion of their own.
14:22They are innovative and they can freely say what they want to say, whether it's good or bad.
14:27If it doesn't work, yes, it doesn't work.
14:29But then are we inviting enough thoughts on the table?
14:33So, number one is that.
14:35Secondly, how are you promoting your people in the company?
14:38So, the narcissist leader will always look at people who are on the first level of control and people who
14:49can manage other people.
14:51So, like how you have the first line of leadership.
14:55They do have their first line of leadership as well.
14:58So, these people control other people.
15:00Can these people easily convince or influence everybody in the department?
15:06If the answer is yes, these are the people who will be promoted first.
15:11Because it's very easy to pack power on power, right?
15:15Very true.
15:15So, and then you become more powerful.
15:17Very true.
15:18And it makes me more mindful of what you're talking about here.
15:23You know, if you were the employee and you're working under such environment, what's your way out of this?
15:33Do you give up?
15:35Do you fight it?
15:37Do you resign to it, saying that this is what it is?
15:40There are often three stages.
15:42Okay.
15:43Everywhere.
15:44First you fight.
15:45You start challenging.
15:47The boss doesn't like it.
15:49Then you go quiet.
15:50And you're like, I'll mind my own business.
15:52Why do I care?
15:54Because for me, mental health is more important.
15:56I have been hired to do my work.
15:58I'm going to do my work.
16:00Nine to five.
16:01And that's it.
16:03I'm not here to prove myself.
16:05And simultaneously, I look for other opportunities.
16:08Once I get something, I'm out.
16:11Because I'm not married to the organization for life.
16:15And why would I sacrifice my mental health?
16:18This is how people think.
16:20And often, their family, their friends are going to tell them, you know what?
16:24It's not worth it.
16:26It's not worth it.
16:27You're not happy.
16:27Just leave.
16:28Especially with Gen Z.
16:30It's more common.
16:32You're not happy.
16:32Leave.
16:33Like, why are you even there if it's not?
16:35Because for them, their career is happiness.
16:39Wow.
16:40Their career is something that they want to build their life on.
16:45And as we discussed in our last episode, they want to grow very fast.
16:49Do you grow in this environment?
16:53If the answer is no, they're the first ones to walk out.
16:56Wow.
16:59Wow.
16:59Lots of information to digest.
17:03You know, from, again, I want to go back to your experience.
17:07Was there a scenario where such situation ended up with a better answer?
17:15Like, the person acknowledged that they were not being good, in a way, and managed to reverse
17:26their direction so that they acknowledged, but they acted on their action?
17:33There are often stages in this as well.
17:36Okay.
17:36For us to bring somebody to that acknowledgement stage takes a lot of effort, and HR cannot
17:43do this alone.
17:44They need to be backed by the management.
17:48Okay.
17:48The decision-making or the person who actually has the final authority is going to give you
17:55the power to start intervening, investigating, and then actually finding out the truth.
18:04And recommendations then follow to the management as to, what are your observations?
18:11Now, this is like not doing a simple survey, because if you do a survey, people generally
18:17don't talk.
18:18Now, the way you find out is by talking to people, not in a gossiping way, but actually asking
18:25for their genuine feedback.
18:26How can you make this department better?
18:28And then people speak up.
18:30They don't blame, but they speak up in a way where there are some prick up words where you
18:37can find out.
18:38Yeah.
18:38Oh, I wish my ideas are entertained.
18:42Oh, you know, I had an idea.
18:45We could have done this project in that way, and we could have avoided some losses.
18:49Now, when you start connecting the dots, you actually know that people do not have the
18:53power to speak.
18:55Now, the second step is, let's take this as an example.
18:59And let's say that this particular department, which was a scenario that I dealt with personally,
19:04said that we don't have a say.
19:07We cannot say anything.
19:09And then there is a lot of favoritism in the department.
19:11As I told you, there's always a first line of control.
19:16Then the next step is for you to give your fair recommendation to the management in terms
19:23of not laying off this person, because you as HR need to also understand the short-term
19:30and the long-term risk, market dynamics, the cost, everything has to be considered.
19:39And for any organization, unless this is like a theft or fraud, it's not viable for you to
19:47let go of someone before you give them an opportunity.
19:50Because maybe they're not aware that people are thinking about them because they've already
19:55set the tone in a very controlling way, where people have stopped speaking.
20:00And if people have stopped speaking, how would you even know what they're feeling about you?
20:04But if a third person, HR, knows what they're feeling about you, that gives someone an opportunity
20:10to mediate and make that individual aware that something needs to change, right?
20:20So the perfect scenario is recommendation to the management, as in this is what we are facing
20:28in the organization.
20:28It's causing a lot of turnover in the department, and people are not satisfied.
20:32People who are still with the company are looking for a change, and you would know this information
20:38through direct conversation or indirect information.
20:41Once you have that information, if you are not supported by the management, it's a full stop,
20:48and the chapter is closed.
20:50So the case is closed.
20:51You can't proceed forward.
20:52But if there is enough support, and the management says, okay, let's take it up with the leader
21:00and see what they say.
21:02Now you are having an opportunity to sit down.
21:05What happens is, let's say if I tell you your leadership style is not good, no matter how
21:13much I fabricate that statement, it is going to sound very offensive, especially if you are
21:19a narcissist, right?
21:21And the first reaction would be, no, that's not true.
21:26No, so-and-so is that, and this, who told you?
21:30Now the first thing would be to find out who told you.
21:32Wow.
21:33Because those are the now target people, and they need to get out of the organization.
21:41So there's usually a lot of defense that comes from their side in terms of evidences, in terms
21:51of justifying their act, in terms of, no, this is not this way, this is that way.
21:58It's a special trait of manipulating your perspective, and turning that into favoring themselves is
22:08always their target.
22:09Now, are you getting convinced, or are you still not convinced?
22:14If you show strong resistance, and you have enough support from the management that you
22:21can take that route, we can possibly see some changes, mild, instantly.
22:30So, and you then start interruptions, not in a big way, because this is going to upset the
22:38whole process, and the organization, and going to cause a lot of disturbances.
22:44Because we have to also remember that this person holds a lot of power and control.
22:51Losing that person's interest in the organization will also result in short-term loss.
22:58Keeping that in mind, how can you now navigate the situation in a friendly way, but yet authoritative
23:06way, in order to tell them that there is something that needs to change in your behavior, in your
23:13personality.
23:14And then that change comes when you are consistently interrupting.
23:21But if you go and interrupt in a very professional, aggressive, assertive tone, they won't take it.
23:30So, what I did, in my experience, when I was dealing with someone like that, I took it in a
23:38very
23:39friendly way, as in I'm advising this person of the gray areas that exist in the department.
23:49And I turned it in a way that I am with you to bring in this change, because I know
23:58you're
23:58not that person that people are talking about.
24:01Now, you see how we changed the story.
24:03Yes, yes.
24:04Instead of me telling you that you're doing something wrong, and people are not happy about
24:09it, I'm actually giving you an assurance.
24:12I know you're not that person.
24:15And I know that there is negativity happening in the department.
24:20Now, let me be with you in the journey and correct the why in the department.
24:27Now, you're actually having a positive approach from the other side.
24:30And they know that, oh, I could be exposed.
24:35Ah.
24:36But the person who can expose me is already talking in my favor.
24:40Right.
24:40Is on my side.
24:41Exactly.
24:42And is on my side.
24:43And now, I need to better behave myself, because if I'm exposed, I lose their trust.
24:49The problem is, the more senior you are, the bigger ego you may have.
24:53Always.
24:54And sometimes, it's not like this is what they want.
24:57And I've witnessed this myself when I used to work for Microsoft.
25:04They tend not to see the other side.
25:07And it's my way or the highway, in a way.
25:10These individuals, how do they manipulate their organizations?
25:13They're probably their immediate teams, and maybe beyond their immediate teams.
25:18Right.
25:19So, different levels of manipulations.
25:22Like, they have a goal.
25:24What do they want to achieve?
25:25The first thing will always be power and control, because they thrive in power and control.
25:30So, their first line in the department would be their favorite people, people that they
25:34can trust.
25:35Wow.
25:36They manipulate them in their style of leadership, in the way they think is right.
25:43It's no longer about the reality of the situation.
25:46And don't forget, these people are high performers.
25:48So, if I'm a high performer, and I have somebody under me, that person's first instinct is going
26:01to be, oh, she's my manager.
26:03I look up to her.
26:05I have so much to learn from her, without psychologically understanding that they are being manipulated by the way I
26:16think is right.
26:17Right?
26:18And they have a very diplomatic way of manipulation in order to win their trust.
26:23Because they make the other person understand that it's for their good.
26:29It's for your progress.
26:30It's for their betterment.
26:32So, the first line will always be the loyal people.
26:37It can be two people, three people, four people.
26:40And do they tend to be the most sometimes desperate people?
26:43Yes, of course.
26:45Yeah.
26:45Most insecure people.
26:47Yeah.
26:48Desperate people.
26:50And mostly people who are their trusted people.
26:56So, a lot of things in the department, they are the ones to shove it under the carpet.
27:02So, a lot of mistakes, a lot of issues, a lot of problems that they don't want to highlight.
27:08They don't want the organization to know.
27:10These are the guys who are going to do the job for them.
27:13So, they are being manipulated as right hand, left hand, gaining trust, and doing things that they want them to
27:22do.
27:23And how the manipulation happens on the top level, by showing perfection.
27:28You need me more than I need you.
27:30It's very simple.
27:31You let go of me, and here is where your P&L is shattered.
27:38Right.
27:38So, you're slowly tuning the other person into believing that you are very important for that person.
27:49That's where the dependency kicks in, where the organization starts believing that you're irreplaceable.
27:59People who will reach the top top are not as quiet as you may think.
28:05So, these guys are very strong communicators.
28:11They are extremely, I would say, appealing in terms of how they interact with you.
28:22I would say the levels that they create under them may not be as charming, as attractive.
28:30Strong communicators, because now they are plotting players to do what they want to do.
28:35And they lead the show.
28:37That's how they do it.
28:38Is there a stage where they no longer, like they feel like we've achieved what we wanted.
28:43I no longer need to play this.
28:46Would you call Bill Gates or Steve Jobs or Steve Ballmer, Elon Musk as narcissists?
28:53I can't comment because what we have seen is the side of them which is extremely successful.
29:02And it takes a lot of personality traits to come where they are today in terms of the success of
29:11the business.
29:11Because there are a lot of sacrifices that one makes as well.
29:16And it doesn't come just like that.
29:19Were they a typical example of being a narcissistic leader?
29:24We can't say.
29:26Because unless you deal with that person, and you understand the style of leadership,
29:32and you understand how they would behave in situation X versus situation Y, you would never know.
29:42You would never know.
29:44So I'm not saying that every successful person is a narcissist.
29:48No.
29:49It's not the case.
29:51But it comes down to when I said these are attractive people.
29:58They are good speakers.
30:01They are always in front of the senior management, right?
30:06Always in the limelight.
30:08That can happen to a genuinely successful, high-performing individual.
30:13What lies beneath is for them to be achieving what they achieve.
30:21If they prioritize ego over people, conflict over collaboration, and manipulation versus reality is when they become narcissists.
30:33Amazing.
30:34Is the clarification I can give you.
30:37Let's take a scenario where I'm new to an organization.
30:41I just started.
30:42I passed all the interviews.
30:45And I have the sense that I may be in a situation where I have a narcissist leader in the
30:53organization or my boss.
30:55What are some of the flags or indicators that I should be looking out for?
31:01And how do you suggest I remedy these?
31:05Right.
31:06So if you are new to the organization, you need to see how the team overall is functioning.
31:11Your interaction in meetings.
31:13Are you expected to be quiet and just nod your head and take down notes?
31:18Or you have space for ideas?
31:21Right?
31:22Number one.
31:23Are small mistakes becoming a big issue?
31:26And why are they highlighted?
31:28What are people trying to achieve?
31:32Excessive control.
31:33I want to do this.
31:35See, a task is a task and there has to be a process.
31:38But if I'm being monitored and if I'm being told every step of the way that this is how exactly
31:44you do it, then that's an excessive control.
31:48Are people controlling my views?
31:51Right?
31:52Right.
31:52And are people already having set of favorite people in the department that I am supposed to be in good
32:03terms with?
32:04Is it expected from me for me to thrive in the organization?
32:09So if I want to get promoted, do I need to be friends with this person?
32:14Do their opinion matter about me?
32:19What they convey about me to my manager?
32:23If that is very important and then the manager creates the impression about me based on what they tell them
32:33is the biggest red flag.
32:35Biggest.
32:37So because then I absolutely am at the mercy of somebody who is giving my feedback, feedback on my performance
32:48to somebody who's basically going to have a perception about me without even dealing with me.
32:54Now, you will ask me that, yeah, there are levels in the organization you will never be able to know.
32:59Yeah.
33:00Right.
33:00So you'll never be able to know because then you would depend on the manager to give you feedback.
33:05Now, if you are not in touch with these people in your department at all and you are just basing
33:13this from the person who tells you, then it's lack of your communication with everybody in the team that you
33:26can't feel them.
33:27Right.
33:27You don't know them.
33:28And you did not have one opportunity to even have any communication with them.
33:34That's impossible.
33:35It cannot happen.
33:36And what, you know, how do you remedy this?
33:39You know, I'm new in the organization.
33:41Do I wait a week, two weeks, three weeks?
33:44Who's my first line of, you know?
33:48Voting.
33:48Yeah.
33:51Once you see these red flags, you would automatically know because you enter.
33:58Oh, yeah.
33:59The last one.
34:00The last red flag is very important because I've seen this so many times in the organization where people make
34:05you feel indirectly that you're lucky you're here.
34:09Have you heard this?
34:10Yeah.
34:11This is so toxic.
34:12Even if they don't say it.
34:13Yeah.
34:14Yeah.
34:14So now you're at my mercy.
34:15Yeah.
34:16Because you're fortunate that you're here.
34:18And I've seen this in so many organizations.
34:20How the hell you can tell somebody who's just been hired that they are lucky?
34:25So are you.
34:26Yeah.
34:26Right?
34:28Right?
34:28True.
34:28So, and that's like indirectly telling them that you need this job.
34:35Oh.
34:36Isn't it?
34:37You need this job.
34:38And this job is important.
34:41So when you come across such traits and when you see these red flags, you ask yourself, what do you
34:51want?
34:51Because even before entering the organization, you would know why you are here.
34:57Right.
34:57And how you want to take your career ahead.
34:59Now, it's all about navigating your way.
35:04And some people are smart.
35:07Some people are smart.
35:09They are able to navigate their way through and thrive in this environment and let it not affect them.
35:16Now, that's their emotional intelligence if they are.
35:19There are only two ways.
35:21Either you navigate the situation or you continue cribbing, continue complaining, and then eventually you're out.
35:29Out.
35:30Or you navigate the situation.
35:32You know what you want.
35:33You want to reach this step, reach this goal.
35:36You reach this goal and that's it.
35:39You've achieved.
35:39And now you're on your way out or you're on the next level within the same organization.
35:44The point is, when you are seeing these red flags, how well you navigate through this situation and achieve your
35:55goal is the thing that you have to ask yourself.
35:59If you think that you can be in this organization long term, then you place a goal accordingly.
36:05Now you have people to deal with.
36:08You have scenarios.
36:09You have different personalities.
36:10You've got politics.
36:11You've got manipulation.
36:13You've got favoritism.
36:14You've got somebody who's never going to give you credit because they hijacked the credit.
36:19And they will still put you under blame for little mistakes that you're going to.
36:24Can you navigate the situation without this affecting your goal?
36:30Yeah.
36:31And sometimes yes, sometimes no.
36:34Because sometimes it can be really brutal on your mental health and you can be affected.
36:38Sometimes it can be an ego clash and it can become extremely impossible for you to navigate that situation.
36:45But then you decide whether you want to stay or you want to go in another organization.
36:52If anybody discusses any toxicity in the organization, I always ask them.
37:00Every minute of yours that you're spending in this organization is costing you mental health.
37:04Let's keep the mental health aside.
37:06How much are you losing on your career is something that you need to focus on.
37:11Because there's no guarantee in the next place that you go will not be toxic.
37:16But there's also no guarantee maybe the next place that you go will be exceptionally good for you.
37:22So right now, are you there ready to take that decision?
37:26Maybe your financial commitments do not allow you to take that decision right now.
37:30And if you get that answer that your financial commitments do not allow you to take that decision, it would
37:36be stupid of you to leave without having financial security.
37:41Right?
37:41True.
37:42Because right now, when you're talking about your mental health, yes, it is toxic, it is affecting your mental health.
37:49Tomorrow, you'll be in a worse situation where you don't have even money.
37:53Money.
37:53And the mental health goals even more down the drain.
37:56True.
37:56So the best thing is to learn how to smartly navigate the situation until your purpose is served.
38:05So when do you knock on the door of HR in that sense?
38:09Or do you knock on the door of HR?
38:11Or do you stay quiet?
38:12Do you believe that, you know, HR will play the role of, you know, being open and understanding of the
38:18situation?
38:19Maybe they'll start seeing a pattern that, you know, X number of people are complaining about this individual.
38:27Usually people don't go to HR, they don't approach HR if there is not a pattern, solid pattern.
38:35Yeah.
38:35So it's usually a tribe behavior.
38:38Yeah.
38:39Yeah.
38:39People go in groups or one starts, the other piggybacks on them.
38:45And then they say, oh yeah, so and so went now, let me also take an opportunity.
38:49I also have a lot to say about my boss.
38:52But very often people don't.
38:55They just exit.
38:56That's very unfortunate.
38:58We, most of the organizations end up losing good people.
39:01But that's the reality of the situation.
39:05Unless the organizations change their approach and they say that, no.
39:12For me, long term sustainability is more important than short term gains.
39:16Only then the change can happen.
39:20But in the fast paced organizations and the market that we deal so volatile every single day,
39:28we have a different goal and we just are looking at numbers.
39:32I doubt that change comes in easily.
39:36Gulneet, if I want to take the side of an organization today,
39:42how often do you see organizations acknowledging the situation and taking the steps,
39:49very courageous steps, if I may say, especially if the person is some of those who are outperforming,
39:56you know, their targets, et cetera.
39:58How often do you see these organizations?
40:00Rare.
40:01And I'll be very honest.
40:02I would say.
40:03Because people are not going to stand up and speak.
40:06Because they, A, sometimes do not find it necessary.
40:11B, fear, which is the biggest factor why people do not speak.
40:16Fear of losing their job.
40:18And quietly coming and doing their work.
40:20So basically they are just to the environment.
40:23And is there enough support that HR has?
40:27No.
40:28That's the fact.
40:30And how often do we see these people getting replaced?
40:33Very, very rare.
40:35Only happens when HR has got the power to intervene.
40:39And the authority to come in and start making changes that benefits the organization.
40:45So if the management is looking just at the profitability and output, that's where…
40:50Which sadly most organizations…
40:52I would say I have rarely seen an organization even trying to take a step to talk about this topic.
41:06And the more power this person gains, the more authoritative this person becomes
41:13and the more manipulative this person becomes.
41:16It becomes even more difficult for anybody to come and challenge.
41:21So if they leave, they leave.
41:22If they don't, nobody can make them leave.
41:26That's the scenario.
41:27And do you think people from the outside are able to spot or see these situations?
41:35I mean, why would a Gen Z then come in and work for this organization if they have that reputation?
41:43Often in a department, there are many layers.
41:47Yes.
41:48Now, if we have a narcissistic leader, you would often have the first layer as the more trusted layer.
41:58Who is…
42:00And that…
42:01Those set of employees are basically their favorites.
42:05And they know how to support this leader.
42:08And the leader has got their trust.
42:10Below them would be another level where people have managed to kind of deal with these people, right?
42:19They can find their way sometimes, but there is a lot of agitation.
42:25There is a lot of resentment.
42:26But end of the day, what matters to them, if it's money or just getting on with their work, if
42:35that is their motive, the department functions as is.
42:38And the lowest level is particularly the entry level, where people are not in direct touch with the leader.
42:48But if you ask me, the vibe that commonly flows in the department is the same.
42:56Because if I want you to function in a particular way, that's my style.
43:02You would function in that way.
43:04So even from the top up until the bottom, it's the same vibe.
43:09People feel it.
43:10People may not feel it directly, but through their reporting manager or the first officer that they are reporting, they
43:19will definitely feel the vibe that this is the person that we are working for.
43:24It's not the organization.
43:25It's no longer the organization.
43:27It's like you put a crown on a clown and expect them to behave as a king.
43:33It doesn't happen.
43:35It doesn't happen.
43:37So help me.
43:39Is it wrong to have a first line individual?
43:46I mean, I don't want to call it favorism, but this person I rely on as a founder or a
43:54CEO or a manager.
43:56I know this person because he or she thinks ahead of me.
44:03Would that put this person as a narcissist leader or a toxic boss just because I favor this person over
44:11others?
44:12And it could be very genuine in terms of this person knows a product or knows a service.
44:19This is why I rely on him or her.
44:21It's honestly not about the skill of a person.
44:26This is where we misread.
44:28Okay.
44:29It's never about the skill.
44:30It's about the personality of a narcissistic leader.
44:35It's not about how well this person sells a particular product.
44:40No, it's not about that.
44:42It's about what they are doing in the organization to establish authority and control and continuously change people's perspective.
44:53If I want to be the king, I want everyone to listen to me.
44:57This has nothing to do with how well you can sell or how well you can do your job.
45:01You can still do your job better if you are not a narcissist leader.
45:09So sometimes people ask me, why do these leaders progress fast as compared to leaders who are emotionally intelligent?
45:20Sure.
45:21Because they shout a lot.
45:22Like when they succeed, they make a big deal out of it because they want everyone to notice that.
45:27They need assurance and reassurance over and over again.
45:31And what makes them happy is the feeling of superiority.
45:38Acknowledgement from the organization.
45:40Because it feeds their ego.
45:41Yeah.
45:41The most important thing for them is the ego and existence.
45:45Because if you may recall, on the psychological level, these people are very insecure.
45:53And they are constantly doubting themselves.
45:56Now, in order to mask that.
45:59They project.
46:00You project.
46:02You project, which is not the version of yourself.
46:07You're not projecting on yourself.
46:09You're projecting on the people.
46:11The insecurity that you have.
46:13You're making actually people more and more insecure so that they can cling on to you.
46:18They can depend on you.
46:20You see how they create dependency and co-dependency in a work environment, which is absolutely toxic.
46:27And it can eat into the roots of the organization.
46:30Wow.
46:31So, you know, you have those who are shouting.
46:35And you have those who are not shouting.
46:37It's the traits that you live in day by day that will trigger flags in an organization, whether you are
46:49in an environment that is healthy versus a toxic environment.
46:56A leader who does not play the blame game and takes the ownership, accountability, does not hijack anybody's success, is
47:07the leader that an organization should invest in.
47:11A leader who's constantly battling within the department in order to gain more power and control and to elevate their
47:22own standard in the organization and to gain proximity with the management is not the leader who actually has good
47:31emotional balance.
47:32It's because what are we trying to do by creating an atmosphere of control where people are afraid to speak.
47:41It's something that we want to work in the way we think is right.
47:46And that's a perfect sign of manipulation.
47:48Thank you very much for an amazing session.
47:53And to our audience, I mean, looking at your organization and being self-critical about it is key for the
48:03long-term success.
48:04When we tend to look at the very short term about the P&L of an organization, and I am
48:10one of those that I occasionally forget and try to focus on the P&L, there's a bigger picture that
48:17we all need to look into and making sure that our work, our companies, our organizations continue to be healthy
48:25places to be in.
48:26And until next time, until our next session, that will be a slightly different topic, we look forward to having
48:33you.
48:33Olney, thank you very much again for your time.
48:35Thank you so much. My pleasure.
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