- 3 months ago
In the third episode of Culture&… by Inc. Arabia, a four-part webinar series examining how workplace culture impacts organizations and the people within them, Anas Abbar, CEO of 7awi Media Group, sits down with Gulneet Chadha, Corporate HR and Wellness Consultant, for a conversation on what makes a healthy workplace.
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00:00There is no definition of great workplace, but what I can say is healthy.
00:05If the organization is growing, and growing with the right kind of leaders,
00:10do you know culture is built best by women?
00:19Welcome back to Culture End by Inc. Arabia.
00:22The past two episodes, we've talked about toxic workplaces, toxic buses, what goes wrong.
00:29But what does right actually look like?
00:32Because great workplace is an overused phrase, and yet very few companies get it right.
00:40A great workplace isn't about perks, nor policies.
00:44It's about how people feel, how leaders act, and what happens when things go wrong.
00:50It's where people can perform, grow, and actually want to stay.
00:55So today, we're unpacking it all, what really makes a great place a great place to work.
01:03And to have this conversation, I'm joined with Gulneet Shada,
01:07an HR leader who works closely with organizations and individuals to build strong, healthy cultures.
01:15She's helped leaders navigate growth, fix broken dynamics,
01:19and create environments where people can strive.
01:23Gulneet, welcome.
01:24Thank you. My pleasure.
01:26It's always good to see you again.
01:28And we're shifting gears from something that was purely on the negative or toxic
01:33to something that is hopefully on the positive and on the bright side.
01:37Let me start with a reality check of the definition itself.
01:42What actually makes a workplace great?
01:45Well, there is no definition of great workplace, but what I can say is healthy, where there's safety and consistency.
01:56So what do we mean by safety?
02:00Do people have a voice?
02:02Can they express their ideas and opinion?
02:06And consistency, are leaders walking the talk?
02:11So are they consistent in what they say in terms of even career progression to their employees and their ideas
02:21or opinions or the action plan?
02:23Is everything consistently being followed in an organization?
02:27So when people see things are consistent, they have more trust in the organization.
02:35And of course, when there's more safety, you don't have to feel worried about losing your job.
02:40You love going to work.
02:42You wake up thinking that I want to achieve this.
02:46I have a goal.
02:47You don't think that you're going into an organization.
02:50You think that you love what you do.
02:52And there's no hesitation.
02:54So that's what we say makes an organizational culture a healthy place.
03:00What percentage of organizations who claim to be a great workplace or a healthy workplace do you think get it
03:09wrong?
03:11They have a definition, which may not necessarily be the right definition.
03:16Doing team building exercises, having a pool table, having fun games every now and then does not define a good
03:24work culture.
03:25You have to understand what is the pulse of each and every employee in the organization.
03:31What are they feeling about themselves?
03:33Do they feel the sense of belonging?
03:36If they do, then they think that this company is mine.
03:39And I'm going to give my 100% because then this company is going to give their 100% back
03:45to me in terms of growth,
03:46in terms of satisfying my own individual purpose.
03:50And is everything aligned?
03:53Whatever I am thinking in terms of my next five years, are we both on the same direction?
04:00If you answer these questions, which is slightly away from, yeah, we're having fun, we have a great culture.
04:06Culture is not something that you announce on Mondays.
04:11It's something that people whisper on Fridays.
04:15That is the meaning of culture.
04:17Nice.
04:18Nice.
04:20So, I guess, I think I know the answer.
04:22Can a company claim that they are a healthy or great workplace when employees are achieving their targets, their KPIs,
04:34or they're not happy?
04:35Oh, so then it's not a healthy workplace.
04:37Because then what we are seeing is organizations running under stressful moments, and there's a lot of burnout happening.
04:45And usually we see that high achievers or high performers are the ones that get burnt out very quickly.
04:52And a high-achieving organization growing rapidly, growing fast, does not necessarily mean that it has a perfect culture.
05:02Right.
05:03So, you're focusing on the goal, but is everybody okay?
05:07Is everyone feeling all right in the organization?
05:11How many cases do you have in the organization of stress and burnout?
05:15Is everyone feeling safe?
05:18How many cases of mental health, whether it's anxiety, whether it's, you know, something draining out of competition, inter-department
05:27conflict, how many people are getting drained?
05:30Where is the measure?
05:31So, we're not just looking at the top line.
05:33We're looking at people who are driving that top line.
05:37Speaking of people, do you think people stick around in a company because there's a purpose for them?
05:45They are so aligned with the organization they're in, or because they fear the risk of leaving?
05:53People will only stay.
05:55Well, people definitely stay for various reasons.
05:58Like, if there's somebody who would like to leave the organization because they're not happy, but it's not the right
06:04timing for them, so they are going to stick around, right?
06:07But people who genuinely stay in an organization are the ones who are actually feeling the sense of belongingness and
06:15at the same time feeling whether I'm growing or I'm not growing, whether it's aligned with my purpose or not.
06:23If you don't create growth or a platform for people to grow in your organization, they are going to find
06:32another place.
06:33So, the biggest factor or what exactly your organization is saying about your culture is to understand what's the retention
06:43rate.
06:44And at the same time, even if the retention rate is high, what I look at, the people who have
06:50stayed in the organization, how much have they grown from the time they've started to where they are right now?
06:56And that's a very strong indicator of what your organization is saying about people.
07:01I'm going to divert a little bit on the topic.
07:04You know, does seniority become a liability for an organization the longer the individuals are in an organization?
07:13Do you feel that this means that their, you know, innovation or thinking out of the box holds them back,
07:20holds the organization back?
07:22If the organization have got leaders and they have stayed with the organization for a very long time, and that
07:29would be for a reason, right?
07:30If the organization is growing and growing with the right kind of leaders, there has to be growth connected with
07:38something that the organization is doing right, whether it's outside the box thinking or having innovative ideas on the table.
07:46Otherwise, how would you grow with the leader that's not supporting the growth of the organization?
07:53So, yes, I would definitely say if, and then your question is whether they become a liability.
07:58Absolutely not.
07:59If the leader is directed in a way that they actually know their purpose and at the same time have
08:07a well-defined career path for themselves, agreed with the organization, then we are talking about a mutual partnership where
08:16they do understand where this is leading them to.
08:19And at the same time, the organization can also directly see their benefits.
08:24It becomes a liability on the organization when things are not going in the right direction, which is directly related
08:33to the performance of the leader and the outcomes that the organization faces on many aspects like whether the hiring
08:41has gone wrong or the project outcome has not been achieved or the goals have not been satisfied or we
08:48were not able to make the profits.
08:50So, there are various factors why an organization would feel this particular leader is a liability.
08:58I didn't bring up the narcissism in it.
09:01But that, if known, then definitely can become a liability.
09:05You know, I think every episode sheds something that connects to our previous conversation.
09:12And I think this is the nature of the business we're in.
09:15You brought up the word purpose a few times.
09:18So, let me ask a very direct question.
09:21Purpose versus compensation.
09:25Where do they stand?
09:27I mean, what's the priority in a healthy environment?
09:31Are you able to balance?
09:34Right.
09:35I have, since I'm a recruiter, I talk to many candidates every day and senior, mid, everyone.
09:43And the current market dynamics are very, very strongly indicating that if your organization is aligned with your personal purpose,
09:56and that includes everything, me liking the organization is not enough.
10:01I want to grow in this organization.
10:04Can I take a temporary pay cut?
10:06But am I looking at a better future?
10:09I'm looking at a long-term goal.
10:12If your organization gives you that platform, I'm not going to leave this job.
10:17Even if I get a hike of 20-25%, because what I'm looking at in long-term is much higher
10:24than the 20-25%.
10:26So, going back to your question, is purpose higher or the compensation higher?
10:32It depends where you are right now, at what level you are, in your personal life as well.
10:40But I would say I do get maximum candidates not wanting to shift from their current job just because they
10:52believe in the organization, that the organization will provide them the perfect platform for growth.
10:58And if they are aligned with their personal goal and purpose, then definitely they're not moving.
11:05Having said that, some definitely move for compensation due to the financial stress or maybe they have a different financial
11:14goal.
11:15That is not wrong.
11:17But at the same time, what I have also seen is there is always going to be that element after
11:24achieving a certain level of financial security in their career, they move back to pursuing their passion, which has to
11:32be aligned with what they want to do in the end, their purpose.
11:36I'm a believer in sometimes you need to step down a bit to, you know, step up.
11:43Sometimes you find yourself at a situation where you're not serving a purpose and the compensation maybe is there.
11:50So, you might consider a drop or a cut in the, you know, with the objective that I'm going to
11:56have a more purposeful career down the road.
12:00I do need to inject the Gen Z into the conversation.
12:05You know, your approach to this, whether it's, you know, purpose versus compensation, does this apply across generations?
12:14Do you see a shift in the approach?
12:17Oh, yes, totally.
12:19We are, when we are talking about Gen Z, now there is a huge conflict.
12:24They want everything.
12:25So, they want their purpose.
12:28They're very passionate about what they do.
12:30They pick things very carefully.
12:33And when they pick and they decide, they are very sure of what they want to pursue.
12:37And you will come across a lot of people who, and they do not know right now what they want
12:42to do.
12:43And they're still navigating and trying to understand where their passion is.
12:48But we see a large number of people really aligned and they exactly know where they want to go.
12:56Now, here's passion and here's compensation.
13:01Both may not come at the same time.
13:04So, like, you can enter into an organization where there's a lot of learning.
13:08So, jumping up the ladder of success may not happen that quickly.
13:11And at the same time, the compensation will come when it has to come with time and with certain, you
13:18know, promotion.
13:18I see a lot of impulse and I do see a lot of impatient behavior, especially when it comes to
13:29Gen Z, because they want to grow very fast.
13:32And at the same time, they know what they want in life.
13:35So, there's a huge conflict between how much time you're spending to learn what you want to learn and to
13:42do what you want to do in order to achieve what you want to achieve.
13:45And the compensation will come accordingly.
13:48So, I wouldn't say that they basically want purpose over compensation.
13:54They want both.
13:55And there is where the conflict is happening right now.
13:58So, my question to Gulnit.
14:00Is that a fair assumption as a Gen Z?
14:03You know, when we grew up, we took what was provided to us.
14:08Honestly, I didn't have a choice, personally, you know.
14:10Whatever I was offered, I took and made sure that I did, you know, my utmost best effort to make
14:18it happen.
14:19I didn't have expectations.
14:21I just wanted to prove myself.
14:24What do you think of this?
14:25I mean.
14:26We, our generation, love the concept of inheritance.
14:31We are brought up like that.
14:34We inherited and we've thought that this is the way work life happens.
14:40Somebody is going to teach us.
14:42Somebody is going to train us.
14:44We are going to learn.
14:45And we are going to lead our life the way we saw people leading before us.
14:51Correct?
14:51Very true.
14:52Current generation does not perform in this way.
14:54There is an outside influence, social media influence.
14:57They are all the time getting stimulated by a lot of information.
15:04So the learning that happened with us, as compared to learning that is happening with them, there is a huge
15:11difference in speed.
15:14So when you think about speed, we were taught to be patient because it's like baby steps.
15:19For them, baby steps do not exist.
15:22They don't believe in the concept of inheritance.
15:25They believe, I want to have my own identity and I think I can create one.
15:29So you have to allow me space and the tools to create my identity.
15:36Don't tell me to prove myself without giving me the tools.
15:42Right?
15:43So here's the conflict.
15:44So definitely the speed, which has multiplied, you know, a hundred times.
15:50Yeah.
15:51And they're getting constantly stimulated by outside world, by social media influences, quick growth factors in terms of how quick
16:05money is made.
16:06And there's a lot of information.
16:08We didn't have that information.
16:09The only information we had was to do things in a particular way.
16:14And right now there's no norm that exists that you can only learn and do things in that particular way.
16:21That norm has been broken.
16:23Correct?
16:24Absolutely.
16:24So now we are on another level of exploration where the new generation is all about, I'm going to learn
16:32and do things my way.
16:35I want to first try to do things my way because I think I have enough information.
16:40But what you need to do as an organization is to provide me with a certain level of platform and
16:48tools.
16:48Which brings us back to the healthy work environment that we need to be aware and conscious about our own
16:57employees.
16:59And perhaps the Gen Z employee is going to have a different mindset than the other employee.
17:07And we need to basically cater for both.
17:11Yeah.
17:12Very interesting.
17:13So somebody called me.
17:15This was Friday.
17:16And a client called me.
17:18And they have a huge percentage of Gen Z because the nature of the business is such that you have
17:24to have young people in the organization for their ideas to flow.
17:30And it is what it is, right?
17:31So the HR called me and said that we have been having a lot of problems with this generation nowadays.
17:39And their assumption, I would say, is like Gen Z do not have emotions.
17:46And I would highly contradict that because they do actually, they are very sensitive.
17:52Because you won't be able to grasp all that information and think outside the box if you can't sense things
18:00right.
18:01Right?
18:02So I would say, no.
18:05On the contrary, they are very sensitive to information.
18:07You just need to know which buttons to press.
18:12I want to shift gears to more about the leadership in an organization, leadership and trust.
18:20What does trust inside an organization look like in practice?
18:25Let's forget the memos that we send out and the mission statement and the vision statement.
18:31How does it actually look like in terms of trust in an organization?
18:36And is it a top-down or bottoms-up conversation?
18:40So in my opinion, trust takes a very long time to build and can be broken in seconds.
18:48And we have all heard that.
18:53When a new employee, let's say somebody new, has entered the organization,
18:59how many interviews will that person have with the direct reporting manager or the officer?
19:04One, two, three, with HR?
19:07And they're all going to talk in the favor of the organization.
19:10That is your first touch point.
19:12But at the same time, you can hardly tell what's happening internally in the organization.
19:18And, of course, when somebody is new into the organization, they're very careful.
19:23They're very careful about what they say or what they do.
19:27They're very, very cautious about their work and especially their speech.
19:33This is because they're observing.
19:35And as I said, your leadership needs to walk the talk.
19:39So how supportive your leadership is defines what trust looks like to me
19:47as somebody who's new in the organization.
19:51So is the leadership accepting their mistakes?
19:55That is huge for me.
19:56So, like, can I come to the meeting table or conference table and say,
20:01I'm sorry, guys, I thought that this was wrong.
20:05And I thought that this was the right thing to do.
20:08And it turned out to be, you know, a nightmare.
20:10So I'm sorry, but this went wrong.
20:12How many of us do that?
20:14No.
20:14Right.
20:15How does it look like?
20:17Do we interrupt somebody who is acting dysfunctional, right?
20:22Do we have a voice in the organization?
20:26It will show in small things.
20:30It will show up in policies.
20:32It will show up in promotions.
20:34It will show up in the silence of people.
20:36That is trust.
20:38So if the people are quiet and they are not allowed to have a voice,
20:44it shows what level of trust exists in the organization.
20:49So I guess trust does start from the top.
20:52It definitely starts from the top.
20:54And, you know, having an average leadership doesn't do us any good.
21:01If the leadership is not trustworthy, we're going to end up in a healthy work environment.
21:09Yeah, 100%.
21:12Speaking of a great work environment that HR or the leadership put in together,
21:23is this done by design or is it grown organically in an organization?
21:29Is it because, you know, management sits around the table and say,
21:34here's what a healthy work environment is and this is how we're going to plan it?
21:39Or is it, unlike the trust where it's top down, the culture itself is bottoms up.
21:48It's the employees building up that culture.
21:50Culture, in my opinion, has to be a designed effort
21:55where the organization consciously makes an effort
22:00to make sure whether every single person is following the values of the organization.
22:08So, yes, we do have the goals.
22:10We do have objectives.
22:11But what about the values of the organization?
22:13If every single person understands what is expected,
22:19what are we creating as a vibe and an environment internally is culture, correct?
22:25But most of the times, unfortunately, it happens by accident.
22:30We are growing.
22:31We are in a fast-paced environment.
22:33We have absolutely no time to feel about, oh, what the other person is feeling
22:38because we are just thinking about short-term gains.
22:41And there is where the culture is happening accidentally,
22:46where the loudest voices are winning.
22:52Dysfunctional environment is slowly creeping in.
22:55Yeah, yeah, yeah, slowly creeping in.
22:57And, of course, narcissism is building.
23:00So, culture, in my opinion, has to be a conscious, serious, strategic effort.
23:10Wherever we see things are not working out and it's getting diverted,
23:15there has to be a conscious effort to bring it back to where we want it to be.
23:20And it starts from the top.
23:22If I want to focus on the positive side, like this is a healthy work environment,
23:27are we saying that culture is not static?
23:31Culture evolves and evolves with time and with probably the environment around us.
23:37What are some of the smaller things that leaders need to pay attention to
23:43to make it a positive experience?
23:47We know about the toxicity.
23:49We covered this.
23:50What is it that we need to do to make sure that it is truly a healthy place
23:56where we can attract those Gen Zs to be part of our organization?
24:00Only three things.
24:02Okay.
24:02Sense of belonging.
24:03Now, when we say sense of belonging is every single person in the organization
24:11needs to feel it to the bones.
24:15That is when you are creating a passion which is aligned with the objective of the organization.
24:22If you don't create that passion in them or you don't bring out that passion in them,
24:27you can never create that sense of belonging.
24:30And how much are they growing?
24:32That's the second thing.
24:33Am I growing in this organization?
24:35Why would I stay?
24:36Why would I stay?
24:37Most of the people are not staying for money because they want to see themselves grow.
24:44So clarity in growth, because what I say, leadership is always a mirror.
24:51They are the ones, not HR.
24:53So they are the ones who's driving the culture.
24:56They are the ones who basically should be responsible to sit down with each and every member of their department
25:03to give them clarity on where they are going or what's the career map.
25:09Because if you don't have clarity, then of course you won't be staying in the organization.
25:15And the third most important part is the purpose.
25:18Why are you here?
25:20And what is the organization giving you in return?
25:23So the purpose, with clarity, with the sense of belongingness, is the only thing that can make an employee stay.
25:32In our company, we have these biweekly stand-up meetings in the morning.
25:37And the intent, you know, I think I know what's happening.
25:40I do believe it.
25:41But it's an opportunity where everyone listens and hears each other out, right?
25:46And maybe an idea will come here, an idea will come out there.
25:49We have this, you know, Wednesday ice cream time and a well-being session.
25:56Yes, you know, we're not trying to paint a beautiful picture.
26:01But don't these small acts add up, you know, in an organization?
26:07They do add up.
26:10It only depends on the vibe of the organization.
26:13What if there is a toxic boss?
26:18Giving an ice cream to that person is not going to help them, right?
26:22Right?
26:23Is it going to freeze their memory of the toxic boss?
26:26It's not going to happen, right?
26:28Cream freeze.
26:28Yeah, exactly.
26:29So it's not going to happen.
26:31So all these perks look really nice.
26:34but at the same time, if the core of the organization is broken,
26:40then all these things are not going to solve any purpose.
26:43It's not going to make the culture better.
26:45Yeah, these are like little fixes.
26:47You can tell the employees that, oh, you know, we're doing this, we're doing that.
26:52So we call a great company to do a team building exercise.
26:55Let's go and plant some trees.
26:58Let's go and track.
27:00We can go and do all these things to tell them that, oh, we are very focused on employee welfare.
27:07We are very focused on employee well-being.
27:09Yeah, those all investments do help, but a person who's already broken from inside
27:15due to various factors of not getting supported by their manager,
27:21how would you fix that by planting trees?
27:24Yeah, yeah.
27:25That's an internal problem.
27:27So if I am to use percentages, and just listening to you, I think it's a very, it's an eye
27:35-opener.
27:35I think a healthy work environment, in my head, equals 95% non-toxic work environment.
27:46If you can overtake the toxicity of an organization,
27:51the 5% is the add-ons that you can basically incorporate in your organization.
27:59Is that a correct statement?
28:00100%.
28:01Yeah, I would 100% agree.
28:02I was thinking to myself, this is something really crazy.
28:08Half of our leadership issues will be sorted if egos took a day off.
28:13Yeah.
28:14So most of the conflict that we see in the organization is very egocentric problems.
28:20And if we have a way of monitoring, overcoming the toxic behavior in the organization,
28:29you don't have to work a lot to create a healthy culture.
28:33Just by removing toxicity out of the organization is helping people understand that the organization is fair.
28:42So fairness is something that every single employee expects.
28:48And what hurts most is, and very few people will talk about it,
28:53if I am, I'm close to a colleague, and it's a colleague and a friend,
29:00I don't want to see them getting hurt.
29:04Right?
29:05When they lose faith in the organization, it automatically drops my morale as well.
29:12So it's a ripple effect.
29:14It's contagious.
29:15People don't talk about it.
29:17But seeing you suffer is giving me goosebumps because tomorrow it can be my turn.
29:23So, and a lot of people say that, you know, after you, let's say somebody gets terminated,
29:30somebody gets removed from the organization, and somebody else has gone and taken that seat,
29:35they will be extremely worried about their own position because you have a boss that's very hard to please
29:41and adopts different means other than professional, you know, outlook to either overshadow you
29:50or do something which is not in your benefit and not let you have a voice, not let you have
29:57an opinion.
29:58So how would you work in that position for a long time?
30:02So it's very contagious.
30:04Just by removing that toxicity from the organization, the organization is setting an example for others that we listen and
30:15we are fair.
30:16Fair enough.
30:17I want to go back to the positive side of the conversation, inclusivity and diversity.
30:25So, yes, toxicity has many ways to creep in.
30:30How do you define inclusivity and diversity in an organization?
30:36You know, we talked about the Gen Zs, but we didn't talk about the female gender in an organization.
30:44And I'm not trying to be biased here, but honestly, I truly believe that creativity comes better from the other
30:54gender than the men's gender.
30:56Let's put it this way.
30:57I wouldn't go into the neuroscience, but definitely there is a lot of studies that proves that females are highly,
31:05highly creative.
31:06And you can see the data is available, how much they have grown over the last few years.
31:12And now they occupy really prominent positions and one of the top organizations in the world.
31:18That gives us more, I would say, validation on why being an inclusive and diverse organization is always going to
31:30help.
31:30Because A, it creates space for everyone.
31:34So, the organization's door is basically open to not men, not based on biases, but based on what you bring
31:44to the table.
31:45It's about your capabilities.
31:46It's about your skill.
31:48So, I can be a mom, but I can also be a CEO.
31:52So, if somebody is there to challenge me, it's only fair to challenge somebody on a professional level.
32:01Not depending, oh, this is a female, she's weak, she can't do it.
32:05No, we can do everything.
32:06And I'm talking because I have grown from a very, very junior level to where I am today.
32:14And I'm extremely proud of myself.
32:16And I am the biggest advocate of women empowerment, where I feel that once you create that space, not only
32:27in the organization, but in the society of acceptance, of acceptance and also trust that, yes, you are a part
32:36of this organization and you're part of the society.
32:40And maintaining that level of equality, you're creating and opening more doors for more capable women to come up and
32:49show their talent.
32:50So, it's definitely a big plus.
32:52Absolutely.
32:53And I encourage all companies.
32:56I mean, it's one thing to say, you know, we have that much percentage of women in our organization.
33:00What really matters is when you sit in a boardroom or on the senior leadership team is to look at
33:09the mix.
33:09Because sometimes these are the people who are making the decisions.
33:14And it cannot be, you know, primarily men.
33:19And I love the fact within our organization is that we have that right balance.
33:24And sometimes, actually, the balance is towards the women more than the men.
33:28But truly, they bring insights that I personally don't see.
33:33But it's extremely valid insights that we bank on and we count on today.
33:39Do you know culture is built best by women?
33:42I didn't.
33:43So, that's another example.
33:44Okay.
33:45Tell me more.
33:46So, you're looking at a very important factor in building the culture, which is a sense of empathy.
33:54Yeah.
33:55So, we are programmed in a way.
33:58And even men are programmed in a way.
34:01If you look at the past history, where we came from, the ancient civilization, men were hunters.
34:07Right?
34:08And women used to take care of the families.
34:11Carekeepers.
34:12And now, like men have definitely adapted themselves to the changing environment where they know that their women are now
34:23entering the workforce, not now, years back.
34:26So, earlier, there was so much of resistance.
34:29But then, with time, that became possible.
34:33So, there was a certain level of adaptation from men in terms of accepting women at workplace.
34:42But the core nature of men will not change.
34:45The neurological wiring as hunters, like go get it, just go, get it done, get it done.
34:50Women are the ones who are pausing, slowing the pace.
34:55Yeah.
34:56And the level of empathy, which is, of course, in the neurological wiring coming from ancient time, is the core
35:04of every woman.
35:05So, whenever, and I've seen this with experience, whenever I've seen a good culture in the organization, I'm very, very
35:17curious to know who is sitting on the board or who's the decision maker.
35:22You will always see women in the top tier.
35:26And the level of, the sense of empathy, the leadership quality is like they're trained to pick leaders with that
35:40sense of empathy.
35:40Once you do that, you're, of course, creating a level of leadership, thinking that they definitely have that empathetic nature,
35:51which is definitely required on the leadership level.
35:55And you're sorted.
35:56And I've seen most of the organizations, they are successful.
35:59And I can give you the names also.
36:02They are successful because on the top tier, there are a couple of women making sure that the culture is
36:08maintained.
36:09I do want to share a story.
36:10I mean, I wish the outcome was different.
36:13It wasn't.
36:14But I was at a situation where we needed to reduce workforce for one reason or another.
36:21And the question was, you know, I bounced the idea with someone that I trust.
36:28And her answer was, there must be a better way.
36:33And I thought about it as well.
36:35What's that better way?
36:36She said, why do you need an office?
36:38Why do you need a physical place?
36:42Because it was either or.
36:43Physical place or the salaries.
36:46You know, sometimes you have no choice.
36:49You need to make a decision.
36:51And it dawned on me, you know, a physical place we can always live without today, or we can, you
36:58know, figure out a way that maybe for the next few months, we don't need a physical place.
37:02But when you let go of an individual, then you lost that person.
37:07A hundred percent.
37:08A hundred percent.
37:08Right?
37:09And, you know, me thinking black and white, that other person came and said, no, no, no.
37:16It's not black or white.
37:17There's an area where you can do a better decision on this.
37:21And, you know, I actually wish I had, you know, followed that intuition because, you know, the more we surround
37:29ourselves with diverse people around us, I think the better decision making is.
37:34Yeah, because you can't have 10 people in the organization thinking that way towards this particular issue is only when
37:45we turn right because nobody showed you the left.
37:49So that is why having people from diverse cultures and, of course, having, you know, diversity in the organization gives,
37:59creates a platform where you can have a lot of ideas pouring in.
38:04So that you can understand different perspectives.
38:07So once you invite different perspectives in the organization, you learn from each other.
38:12Absolutely.
38:12I don't think there's a single person who is a factory of creativity and ideas, right?
38:19It's a team exercise.
38:22It's individuals from different backgrounds coming in together and basically presenting their voice.
38:30And that's what makes a healthy work environment.
38:33100%.
38:34So let me ask, with all this that we talked about today, why do people choose to stay when they
38:42could easily step out of that environment?
38:47So let's change the question a bit.
38:49Why would people step out?
38:52Why would people step out?
38:55It's less about the organization, more about the leader.
38:58Because your leader creates culture.
39:01The organization, on the holistic view, yes, is an organization where different areas are taken into consideration when we start
39:14talking about culture.
39:16But the people who have got the responsibility to implement this culture is your leader.
39:22So if there's something wrong with the culture, do you think that something is not wrong with the leader?
39:29No.
39:31It's always going to happen that one person can turn wrong.
39:35Right.
39:35Yes, let's get rid of that person.
39:38Two can go wrong.
39:40Let's get rid of two people.
39:42Three can go wrong.
39:44But if the numbers keep increasing, that's where you need to see what's wrong, not with the organization, with the
39:52leader.
39:54So why would people leave?
39:57Money is secondary.
39:59Because if your leader is supportive, they'll do whatever possible to make sure that you grow within the organization.
40:09Well, it does happen a lot of times that the organization comes to a place where now you can't grow
40:18beyond this.
40:19Correct?
40:20And we see this every day.
40:22Because I interview people every day, and most of them will tell me, I love what I do, and I
40:29love this organization.
40:32But I don't think beyond this I can grow.
40:35Because there is no place for me to grow.
40:39Would I be interested to leave this organization if given a choice?
40:44Maybe no, because I'm very happy where I am.
40:47But it's not about financial benefit, because I want to see myself, let's say, becoming a general manager.
40:54So if I already have a general manager who's the owner of the business, there's no way they can create
41:01that space, and they can create that budget for me.
41:04So the only thing is for me to move out.
41:07Exceptional case.
41:08But we have those examples.
41:11But people who would like to move out is mainly because of the bosses they have.
41:17How many opportunities they have been given.
41:20How many times they have been patted on their backs.
41:23How many times the boss has actually understood their mental state and have themselves told them to take a break.
41:31How many times were you questioned when you were on a sick leave?
41:35Whether it's a genuine sick leave or you're just resting at home without any reason.
41:40And just because you wanted to rest.
41:42Do we not understand that we all need a break?
41:45Of course.
41:46Correct?
41:47Do we have a boss who understands and who is now supporting you in taking that break?
41:54Or questioning you when you actually need that break?
41:56So these are the factors that one would consider.
42:01And way before taking a decision to leave the organization, nobody wakes up in the morning and say,
42:09oh, today is a good day, and today I'm going to resign because I think I have the perfect scenario
42:16to resign.
42:17No, the scenario has been created months back.
42:20The buildup.
42:21Exactly.
42:22It's the buildup many months ago where I had been waiting patiently for the organization to do something.
42:29But when I see that, no, I have failed in bringing the change that is required to make my job
42:37comfortable.
42:38The organization is not fair.
42:40There's so much toxicity.
42:42Why would I stay and waste my time?
42:46I was thinking about previous episodes when we said compensation is not the reason, the main reason.
42:53And it's rarely the main reason for someone to leave.
42:57But if I am to flip the conversation, compensation is also not the only reason to stay in an organization.
43:04Right?
43:04You could be empowered at an organization, knowing that if you stepped somewhere else, you might receive a better compensation.
43:13But that's not necessarily.
43:14I have seen a lot of people.
43:16I have recruited a lot of people for a lot of organizations where people were on an X salary.
43:22And they decided to take a pay cut and move into an organization where they thought that will give them
43:30growth.
43:30So, you take that pay cut temporarily, but you're looking at a better organization in terms of culture.
43:37And there are many examples in the market, and we do come across those examples every single day.
43:42They can't wait to get another job and get out of this company.
43:46It's that level of frustration.
43:48Unfortunately, it's happening.
43:50And, you know, we're not here to judge anyone, obviously.
43:54People have their own circumstances and so forth.
43:57But I, you know, I truly believe people need to think on the slightly longer term.
44:03Your mental wellness and mental health is far more valuable than the extra few hundred dollars or whatever it is
44:12that you may be getting if you ended up in the wrong work environment.
44:17You will only be able to understand the mental health of people if you do understand their pulse.
44:25If it's only about work, then people can get drained very fast.
44:30They can get burnt out very fast.
44:32And some of the people may not even tell you.
44:36So, what do you do when there are people who will not tell you?
44:41They're still getting burnt out.
44:43What is the level of connection that you as a leader have built with every single person in your team
44:51is speaking of your culture?
44:53Every single promotion, every single silence, every single moment of discussion where that person has felt that my boss has
45:05understood me.
45:06Can you share with us examples of how positivity can influence the health of a workplace?
45:17Right.
45:18So, because I've worked with so many organizations and there are a couple of things that I can mention which
45:26were quite visible during the process of change management.
45:30And not even change management.
45:33Like, sometimes it's just the entrepreneur or the owner of the business making, wanting to make a conscious effort to
45:43understand what is my culture saying.
45:45So, and by implementing small things here and there, you can have a huge impact on how people feel in
45:54the organization.
45:55Because culture is about what do you feel about your work and your growth and sense of belonging in the
46:02organization.
46:04So, a couple of instances where some organizations actually took a conscious effort in running a survey, understanding what they
46:14actually feel.
46:15Not just that, they went a bit step ahead, asking people about, in the last three months, have you had
46:22any personal issues that has affected your mental health?
46:25So, really touching, and that was an anonymous survey, and a lot of survey came back in understanding that there
46:34could be drivers from personal life that could affect their work.
46:39Because, of course, there's no line that you can divide between your personal issues, not bringing those to work, and
46:45it can happen.
46:46And in the last three to six months, there has been a lot of attrition in the organization.
46:53And their medical insurance was coming up for renewal at the same time.
46:57So, the decision that the organization made was basically investing into the mental health along with the insurance so that
47:06then people can go and take health, which would not break their pockets.
47:10Right.
47:10Right?
47:11So, when was that?
47:12They also appointed an external counselor to come into the organization to talk about awareness issues, like if somebody has
47:21got anxiety, how to deal with that.
47:23And people were allowed to get in touch with full confidentiality with that counselor outside working hours and discuss and
47:33take help at a special rate.
47:35Not just that, there were a lot of products introduced in the organization on longevity.
47:42So, after doing all of the implementation, and of course, the leadership training that also involved how to basically make
47:52sure that every single person in their department is not feeling stressed.
47:57If you do see any signs of stress, if you do see any signs of stress, this is what you
48:01do.
48:01One, two, three.
48:02Do you have a chat with them?
48:04Do you actually now understand the early signs?
48:07Just by doing this, within the first three months, the turnover dropped drastically.
48:14And, of course, people started using the extra benefit on their insurance that they had.
48:22Not just that, the environment in the company, the space opened for the introduction of a lot of things which
48:30were directly connected to well-being, sessions, supplements,
48:37and some things like to basically regulate your vagus nerve.
48:41So, they basically went really serious into making sure that the people are all right.
48:48Once the organization, once the people saw that change coming in, the first thing, first month, people said,
48:55ah, it's okay, it's a one-time thing.
48:57Then it continued the second month.
48:59And then they said, okay, now it is becoming consistent.
49:02Now let me use it.
49:05The third month was really effective because a lot of people started coming forward and started using whatever tools they
49:13were giving them.
49:15There were a lot of self-care apps which were introduced in the organization.
49:21Not just the turnover rate dropped, but the performance of some departments really shifted.
49:28Maybe a call to action for leaders on how to build a healthy work environment.
49:37So, for leaders, when you're looking at retention, let's say, what makes a team efficient, right?
49:47So, there are two things.
49:49There's consistency and then there's discipline.
49:52So, people or the teams who are highly disciplined are the ones who are actually performing or high performers.
50:00But there are certain elements which are very visible amongst these team members that they do consistently,
50:07which is leadership providing clarity.
50:10Every single person has a clear goal, not only what they have to do in the organization as they work,
50:20but also where they are going.
50:22So, building a career path is your responsibility, not HR responsibility, because it will come from you.
50:29How do you take this person from stage one to stage 10?
50:33What does their journey look like?
50:35So, the first is clarity.
50:37Second is accountability.
50:39So, you as a leader walk the talk.
50:42But at the same time, you have to make sure that people are understanding that they are accountable for the
50:50good and bad.
50:51But at the same time, there are no egos, there is no shifting blames,
50:56and there's nothing negative happening in the team.
50:59So, maintaining that harmonious environment is the biggest step to success.
51:05And the third, most important, communication.
51:09So, you set the tone.
51:11Good or bad, ugly or anything, come speak to me.
51:16My doors are always open.
51:18You never take it personal.
51:19Because even if there is personal, there's something for you to learn from.
51:23Even if it's a feedback, instead of going on an ego trip or guilt trip,
51:29look within and understand, because you have a bigger responsibility on your shoulders.
51:35It's not just the responsibility of the organization.
51:38We are talking about the responsibility of each and every member in your team.
51:45What they are, what they will become, is your responsibility.
51:51So, instead of looking at, oh, they are not happy, try to understand why.
51:58The why behind everything, if all leaders start thinking about why,
52:07they will have most of the answers that they are looking for.
52:10Yeah, the ideal scenario, I should have a layer in the organization.
52:16Exactly.
52:17That projects the same thoughts that I have, okay?
52:21Whether it's values or, you know, and off the record, I don't think I managed to do this.
52:27And you can call it, you know, failure on my side.
52:31I just couldn't find that individual who would value feedback from our own employees
52:41as something constructive.
52:43So, when I sit with them, today, they're very open.
52:48I mean, they'll tell me what's, and I start the conversation, it's about you.
52:52It's not about the business.
52:53Exactly.
52:54It's about you.
52:54Tell me what's bothering you.
52:56If it's about, tell me what is bothering you is a very powerful question statement,
53:03opening statement.
53:04Yeah.
53:05Where tell me what's bothering you opens a discussion where you're not addressing work.
53:13Yeah, yeah, yeah.
53:14You could be addressing personal life.
53:17Employees are very sensitive, not about work.
53:21They have been paid to do that, right?
53:23They're sensitive when it comes to their personal life.
53:27When any boss, any manager, any leader touches that point, you're now entering into a personal space
53:39of that particular employee where if you are able to guide them, mentor them, solve any of their personal problems,
53:49you instantly build not just connection but trust.
53:52They will start depending on you for anything that can happen in future.
54:00They see you as an empathetic leader, approachable person who understands, who's got empathy.
54:08That is huge.
54:10Now, once you've checked that personal side of an employee, they will never hesitate approaching you for work-related issues.
54:20That is guaranteed.
54:22So I'm not saying the root should always be that.
54:26But sometimes it can really help you to get into the personal space because some people are really protective, right?
54:35Right.
54:35And they don't speak much.
54:37For people who are expressive, it's okay.
54:40But not everyone in the organization is going to be as expressive.
54:44So how to understand each and every person, how to develop that comfort level, that level of trust where you
54:53tell your employees that,
54:56you are not here for me, I'm here for you, I'm here for you, I'm going to do every single
55:06thing that you want me to do to make you successful and to provide the best for your family.
55:12That's where you start a healthy relationship.
55:16Thank you very much for another inspiring conversation today.
55:21I think for the past three episodes, we covered a range, a spectrum of topics from the negativity all the
55:29way to concluding today with what needs to be done.
55:32And I believe trust is a key pillar of a leader to ensure a healthy work environment.
55:41So thank you so much.
55:42My absolute pleasure to be involved or to contribute in whatever capacity I could.
55:51And I look forward to indulging in more episodes.
55:54Looking forward to it.
55:55Thank you, Gunit.
55:56Thank you.
55:57Thank you.
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