- 20 hours ago
“1 in 5 employees say they’re in a toxic workplace.”
In the first episode of Culture&… by Inc. Arabia, a four-part webinar series examining how workplace toxicity impacts organizations and the people within them, Anas Abbar, CEO of 7awi Media Group, sits down with Gulneet Chadha, Corporate HR and Wellness Consultant, for a conversation on how toxic work environments take shape—and the impact they can have on both businesses and employees.
In this episode, Chadha explores how organizations can identify toxic workplace behaviors, why such environments affect business performance, and the factors that ultimately drive employees to leave.
Watch the full episode to hear more of Chadha’s insights on building healthier workplace cultures.
In the first episode of Culture&… by Inc. Arabia, a four-part webinar series examining how workplace toxicity impacts organizations and the people within them, Anas Abbar, CEO of 7awi Media Group, sits down with Gulneet Chadha, Corporate HR and Wellness Consultant, for a conversation on how toxic work environments take shape—and the impact they can have on both businesses and employees.
In this episode, Chadha explores how organizations can identify toxic workplace behaviors, why such environments affect business performance, and the factors that ultimately drive employees to leave.
Watch the full episode to hear more of Chadha’s insights on building healthier workplace cultures.
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TechTranscript
00:00We're not working for salaries and package.
00:03It goes much beyond that paycheck.
00:06Every entrepreneur, every founder, every CEO
00:10knows exactly what is happening in the organization
00:13if they want to know.
00:14I always tell organizations, whenever you're recruiting,
00:18you have to understand what drives their passion.
00:27Reality check.
00:28One in five employees say they're in a toxic workspace.
00:33Culture, not the salary, is the reason they want to leave their organization.
00:39Welcome to Culture End by Inc. Arabia.
00:43Today, we will be talking about what really happens inside organizations,
00:48not what's in the company's handbook and policies.
00:51Joining me today is Gounid Chada, an HR leader focused on culture,
00:56employee engagement, and building high-performing, people-first organizations.
01:01Welcome, Gounid.
01:02Thank you so much, Anas.
01:03Thank you for having me.
01:04Gounid, I'm going to jump in right into the conversation today.
01:07And I chose the first episode to be about the topic that is a bit concerning to many organizations,
01:16and that is toxic workplace.
01:18So, my first question to you would be, how do you define a healthy workplace versus a toxic workplace?
01:26So, I'll put it in this way.
01:29If you've got employees who can express themselves freely and still feel safe, that's a healthy environment.
01:37It goes much beyond salaries, perks, and packages today, especially for Gen Z.
01:44We're not working for salaries and package.
01:47It goes much beyond that paycheck, which is the passion that drives them to work every single day,
01:55because they want to grow.
01:57They want to make their own identity.
01:59They want to establish themselves.
02:01Now, what goes beyond that is when they feel safe, when they're able to express themselves freely,
02:10because toxicity is not in the policies of the organization.
02:15It's in the behavior that people cannot challenge or they're scared of.
02:22So, that I would define us.
02:24You brought up two topics that I was hoping it would take a while for us to get to,
02:28and that is the Gen Z, and the other part, do organizations themselves know that they are in a toxic
02:35workplace environment
02:37or they're not, you know, aware of it?
02:41If you tell me they don't know, they're lying to themselves.
02:45Every entrepreneur, every founder, every CEO knows exactly what is happening in the organization if they want to know.
02:53Wow.
02:53Because sometimes we shove it under the carpet because it's bringing us money.
02:59Why do toxic employees succeed and others are put in the backbench?
03:06Because we are focusing on the top line.
03:11So, answering your question back again, do they know?
03:15Of course they do.
03:16Because how do you know?
03:19You know how your leadership behaves with people.
03:23And that's a very big example of the tone they are setting in the organization.
03:28And here I would like to say something.
03:30Every founder, every entrepreneur must look at their values.
03:35What they are saying on the internet, on their website, on the employee handbook, right?
03:40So now, let's do this.
03:41Let's put those values on a piece of paper.
03:44Write down those values.
03:45Next to those values, write down the names of your top leaders who are actually running the organization.
03:52Now, ask yourself this question.
03:54Every single person on that list, are they speaking the values of the company when they deal with employees?
04:03And, of course, other stakeholders.
04:05You'll have your answer.
04:06You know, I've spent enough time in my career in corporate America.
04:12And one thing that stood out was always the company decides to keep those high-performing individuals without looking at
04:23the impact that they cause.
04:26And, you know, I'm talking about VPs, corporate VPs, SVPs, who were literally bullying the organizations.
04:36But the company held on to them, right?
04:39They held on to them because, to your point earlier, the top line.
04:42They were impacting the top line.
04:44Exactly.
04:45Now, when I look back, that doesn't last too long.
04:49This is a very short-term thinking or strategy.
04:52Mid to long-term, it will backfire and the organization will fall apart.
04:58Am I reflecting it correctly?
05:00Yes, 100%.
05:01So, the owners or people who have got the responsibility of the profitability of the company, as long as they
05:11are able to keep balance.
05:14Yes, money is important, but growth doesn't come overnight.
05:18Rome was not built in one day.
05:20So, as I said, that you can't grow the business.
05:25That is not sustainable.
05:27One toxic person can bring the entire team down.
05:30Yes, you can focus on top line, but at the same time, you must also understand that this is not
05:37sustainable.
05:38I'll give you an example.
05:39So, one of my clients had a business unit head.
05:43And so, it was a growing company.
05:47The head was fairly new, not in the industry, but in that organization.
05:52And they had a huge turnover.
05:55And I'm like, what is happening with that organization?
06:02So, I was brought in to understand, are we doing something wrong that so many people are leaving?
06:09Or it's just because the market has boomed and the salaries have gone up?
06:16The market median has, you know, gone up.
06:18So, hence, people are going for better opportunities.
06:21So, then, when we started diving into the different aspects of the department, mainly talking to people, understanding from business
06:31head what exactly is happening.
06:34So, we found out that people who do not find their team members aligned to their style of working are
06:44the first to be removed from the system.
06:46So, what does it tell you?
06:48Yes, you want to rebuild the team.
06:50That's definitely good.
06:51But, at the same time, you will never have all 10 members in your team exactly the same in terms
06:58of their style of working, their behavior, their personality.
07:03Every single person is different.
07:05Now, what's the threshold that you have developed for every single person?
07:11Now, do you have a policy where you favor a few people who are bringing you money?
07:17Of course, the other people are going to leave because those are getting overshadowed.
07:22So, I always tell people when you have high level of toxicity in the environment and some people are extremely
07:30toxic, it is bound to happen that others will get overshadowed.
07:35So, when you have a toxic environment, you will have some people who are just running behind that race of
07:46recognition, validation, and they can go to any extent to keep their position active.
07:52But then others, who could be also high performers, will be shadowed.
07:58And these are the first ones to move out of the system.
08:02And when they move out of the system, it is your loss because, at the end of the day, you
08:08will never find a perfect fit because you bring somebody into an organization with the view that, yes, they match
08:16the criteria, they have the skill set, they have everything.
08:19But to blend them into the culture is your responsibility.
08:23And if you fail there or people are there in your department who will not let them grow, people will
08:30move out.
08:31And I believe, like, being a homogeneous organization is not necessarily a good thing because you're missing out on that
08:39other part of the business, whether it's creativity, it's inclusion, it's the diversity of the organization.
08:46I think, to your point, sometimes we are so short-sighted that we look at one part of the conversation
08:54and we beat it.
08:56Revenue, revenue, revenue.
08:58Doing that, we are not helping our organization become a healthier place.
09:03Yeah, when the focus of organizations changed from long-term goals to short-term goals, you're definitely looking at the
09:11profitability and you're looking at numbers.
09:14But that may not be necessarily a good thing to do.
09:18I always advise companies to look at long-term and develop a plan for each and every individual in the
09:26organization through your leadership team, because that's their responsibility, to really map the growth of every single person.
09:33Otherwise, why would this person be with you if they don't have a proper career path in the organization?
09:41And that comes from the leadership.
09:43One thing, I mean, I know I personally make many mistakes, but one thing I do ask whenever we hire
09:51someone is to interview that person.
09:54I interview them not because I am smarter than they are.
09:57To me, it's the cultural fit of that individual in the organization.
10:01I don't want to bring in that bad apple in a way that can actually cause issues across the org.
10:10It doesn't always work out.
10:12And, you know, here's a pushback at you.
10:15In situations where we find sometimes ourselves either, you know, handicapped or handcuffed due to circumstances beyond us,
10:25the short-term tends to take priority over anything else.
10:29And I'm being super frank about this, is that at the end of each month, we need to pay salaries.
10:35So the, you know, the cash flow is critical.
10:39How do you balance these things?
10:41And do you think the employee will be willing to accommodate or work with management in such scenarios?
10:53I would like to say this.
10:56With every organization is different.
10:58And I have encountered a lot of businesses, not just in COVID, but also in recent times.
11:03There are businesses who've got that appetite, like they can absorb their salaries and until the economy comes back again,
11:10and then we start functioning normal.
11:12But there are businesses where it's tremendously hit.
11:17And now the cash flow is tight.
11:19Paying salaries is a bit of a constraint.
11:22I would say the role of a leader or a founder here in this particular organization where they are in
11:31a scenario where their business continuity is being challenged,
11:36and now they are feeling threatened, when is the economy going to come back again?
11:40When are we going to start rolling invoices again?
11:43And the trust that employees have in you will play a huge role in the support that you expect from
11:51people in today's scenario.
11:54Cutting salaries or restructuring or no work, no pay scenario.
12:02Yes, you can do all of that.
12:04And there will be employees who will stand with you during the tough times.
12:09But I would say even if you take that route and if you restructure the salaries temporarily or you lay
12:17them off temporarily and promise to bring them back again,
12:20how confident they feel with you in this scenario.
12:27And it doesn't stop here because once you have made an employee go through that experience with you, the trust
12:38will be shaken.
12:39Let's say 50-50.
12:4150% people know you.
12:43They work closely with you, right?
12:45So they can understand that you have an ability to come back.
12:48It is happening with the government as well.
12:51We are staying in the country because our faith in the government is unshakable.
12:57We have seen these scenarios back in the crisis, then COVID, and now we're not leaving.
13:04We're not leaving because we know the power of the government is unshakable and they will bring this economy back
13:12up again.
13:13That's the kind of message you need to give to your people.
13:16So I think, you know, for those who are listening to this conversation, I think it's super important to understand
13:21toxicity does not mean that the business is doing well or not doing well.
13:30Transparency is key.
13:32Correct.
13:32Right?
13:32Yeah.
13:32And if you're transparent with your employees about the situation where you're in, that doesn't mean, and even if it
13:39means that you're, you know, you're not on the perfect path, that doesn't make you a toxic workplace.
13:46No, no.
13:47Absolutely not.
13:47And I think lots of people confuse these two things.
13:49It's like, you know, toxicity could be, oh, I'm not getting paid on time or, or, or.
13:54No, I would, I would definitely agree with you.
13:58Toxicity is something that you stop looking forward to, you know, to do anything.
14:08Like, you don't want to come to work, you hate your teammates, or you don't like your manager, and you
14:16just don't feel welcomed in the organization.
14:19You don't feel that you're valued, and also you don't feel that you're needed in the organization.
14:24It has nothing to do with delayed salaries because these are the very common things that can happen in any
14:33business.
14:33And transparency, for you to, to, to be able to grow in the company, that is the opposite of toxicity.
14:44Like, I want to come to work.
14:46I look forward to coming to work.
14:48That's where, you know, the, the healthy environment, the definition of healthy environment is.
14:53I think I read it somewhere on LinkedIn, a post about 85% of employees who have left or resigned
15:01had actually made up their mind way before they left.
15:05And that's a quiet resignation that they made up their mind.
15:09And, you know, they don't feel they belong to this organization.
15:13It was just a, you know, matter of time before that happens.
15:17But, you know, mentally, they've already made up their mind.
15:21Yeah, they already check out.
15:22There are two types of employees.
15:24One, they leave because of toxic culture.
15:27The other set of employees, they look for better package.
15:32Opportunities.
15:33Right?
15:33So, I could be very happy in my organization, and I'm flying, I'm growing, I'm doing very well.
15:40And one fine day, a recruiter calls me and pitches me an opportunity, and I'm like, I'm happy, but I
15:47want to explore.
15:48When I explore, I see that they like me, I like them, you know, it's a good employment marriage, and
15:54let me just go for it.
15:55And I go for it.
15:57The other set of employees that we're talking about who are leaving because of toxic culture are the ones who
16:05are checking out mentally way before they put their resignation on a piece of paper.
16:12And guess what?
16:13They put their resignation when they are able to secure an opportunity.
16:18And what happens is from the time that they check out, until they resign, organization loses money.
16:26Absolutely.
16:27Because there are a lot of signs.
16:29They withdraw.
16:30Yeah.
16:30They don't contribute.
16:33They're not productive.
16:34They don't contribute.
16:35Yeah.
16:36So, there are no ideas coming.
16:37They stop challenging ideas because this is how we grow, right?
16:41We want creativity to flow in the organization.
16:44And if I have an idea, I want somebody to challenge me so that we can do better.
16:52And the first, first sign is they go silent.
16:56Oh.
16:57Because they don't feel it's necessary.
16:59And in their head, like, I'm already on my way out.
17:02Why should I bother?
17:04You know?
17:04And that's when the organization starts losing.
17:08Not when they resign.
17:09It's way before they actually tender their resignation.
17:13And I'm sure the damage is much bigger because it could be contagious.
17:17Definitely.
17:18Other colleagues would probably, you know.
17:20So, yeah, I can see how impactful it can be for businesses.
17:26I want to go back to an earlier point.
17:29We mentioned it once.
17:30I want to bring it back.
17:31Gen Z.
17:32So, how do you see Gen Zs looking at a toxic workplace versus maybe someone who's been in
17:43this business for a much longer period of time?
17:46You know, they've been in the 90s, you know, 2000 and so forth.
17:52They have that experience.
17:54Fear may have played in their decision to stay in an organization.
17:59Do Gen Zs have that problem?
18:02That patience?
18:03Yes.
18:05No.
18:06The answer is no.
18:07I'll tell you why.
18:10There is so much of trigger coming from social media where every young person is a rock star
18:19or they want to be a rock star in whatever they do.
18:23Money is flowing.
18:24They're becoming successful.
18:27Influencers, young influencers are making a lot of money.
18:30I want to make a lot of money.
18:32This is what Gen Zs think.
18:34Patience is very thin.
18:36Now, we are dealing with a generation.
18:40They definitely want to grow.
18:42They want to create their identity.
18:45That is the most important thing for them.
18:47Their identity as in growing fast, but creating a meaningful career is what they want to do for
18:55themselves.
18:57Now, we have seen it, done it all.
19:02And we also know that there is a lot of patience, resilience needed for you to climb
19:08because a lot of things will come with experience, with you coming across certain scenarios in
19:15life, dealing with situations.
19:17That's how you learn, right?
19:18That patience, unfortunately, is not there.
19:22But that passion is there.
19:24It makes up for that.
19:26Yeah, so it won't make up for the thin patience in Gen Z.
19:32But what I would like to say is if you're able to pick that passion and channelize that passion
19:40in the right direction, then you can get immense output from them.
19:45And this is tried and tested.
19:47So don't put them in places.
19:51Now, it all depends on the kind of individual you're dealing with and the kind of background
19:56they come from.
19:57Because if they are coming from a background where there is a lot of stimulus, where the
20:04brother is doing exceptionally well, they're young and they have been really successful
20:08really fast, and now they are something.
20:11So you see, there is already an example.
20:14Now, how do you bring that person from that family environment and plug them in a corporate
20:21environment where the growth is not going to be that spontaneous?
20:25They will work with you for six months, one year, but then they'll jump wherever, because
20:31they want to prove it to their family that, you know, you have one rock star, I'm the second
20:36one, right?
20:37So it's the influence.
20:38I always tell organizations, whenever you're recruiting, you have to understand what drives
20:45their passion.
20:46Is it money?
20:48Is it a validation, which is fame and recognition?
20:51Or this is work-life balance?
20:54Every single individual is different.
20:56But one thing that remains common in Gen Z is very thin patients, as in they want to grow
21:04very fast.
21:05Now, how do you provide them with an opportunity to grow and excel?
21:10So that is important for every organization to create a perfect funnel for them, where they
21:18have a very transparent career path, and they know exactly where they are going, and that
21:24will make them stay.
21:25I don't want to get ahead of ourselves with Gen Alpha, but, you know, I don't know if the
21:29trend will continue to be like this.
21:32We try our best to have a mix, because sometimes you need that grounding, that, you know, seasoned
21:42experience in an organization.
21:43But I tell you, I mean, having Gen Zs in our offices, they light up the rooms, right?
21:49Of course, yeah, they will.
21:50They're witty.
21:51Nothing stops them.
21:53They don't know fear.
21:54They are very creative.
21:55Absolutely.
21:55Very creative.
21:56You can expect all the creative, because they are out there, and the influence from social
22:02media is so strong that they are constantly getting exposed to everything new.
22:10And that is the newness that you want to bring into the organization.
22:15Can you live without them?
22:16Absolutely not, because that's how you will grow, because you also want to become a forward-thinking
22:21organization.
22:22And if you stick with people who are like, who have been in the organization for 20 years,
22:3030 years, that's not how you develop creativity.
22:33So you need to grow them and bring a new set of team, new fresh blood into the company where
22:40you're building something really, really outside the box.
22:44Does toxicity differ between Gen Zs and previous generations?
22:50Do you see that the way they define a toxic workplace differently, like expecting him or
22:59her to be in the office at nine in the morning?
23:02Is that a toxic workplace?
23:05Look, we've seen it, done it, and we basically have transitioned, in our mind as well, from
23:16the thought process, which is nine to five or nine to six, to really slowly adjusting to
23:24what the new generation wants.
23:28And we would say that, oh, well, nine to six works best for us, because it works best for
23:35us.
23:36We have been tuned, and we have spent so many years of our career doing nine to six.
23:44And in our mind, we have framed this.
23:47I come in at nine, I start my first meeting at 9.30, 10.
23:52Before lunch, I'm done with everything.
23:54And here comes Gen Z, says, my work actually starts after lunch, because that's where I
24:00feel much more energetic.
24:02And the morning time is something I want to do research on.
24:06So it's very different.
24:07Now, it's not toxic when you tell Gen Z that, you know, the work timings are nine to six.
24:14But what I'm trying to say is, you must have that flexibility in the organization for everyone
24:21to blend seamlessly.
24:23Now, even if they want flexi hours, now, how do you blend and integrate different people
24:31in the organization and still get the work done?
24:34It's the beauty of leadership.
24:36Yeah.
24:36So it is, you know, empowering by being flexible, but holding accountable.
24:41Accountability is the topmost priority.
24:44Right.
24:45You can't have employees in the organization, and the accountability is blurred.
24:52No.
24:53Straight, transparent, laid-down guidelines where everyone knows what they're expected to do
25:01and how they have to do is very important for every organization.
25:06So you come in at 10 as long as you're meeting your KPIs.
25:10It doesn't matter.
25:11You can work from the moon.
25:12Yeah.
25:13I want to go back to a very, like, solid examples of a toxic workplace.
25:19Would you be able to name three or five examples that will, you know…
25:26Only?
25:29Let's start with three or five.
25:31That, you know, it's a sign that definitely this is a toxic workplace, and this is what
25:38potential hirees would look for or avoid, and what message would you give or advise leadership
25:46in organizations to make sure that they don't fall into this trap?
25:51Right.
25:52So there are many signs.
25:53When you look at a toxic environment, the first and foremost thing is favoritism.
26:00So, like, I'm a leader, and I have 10 people in my department, but I've got, like, two, three favorites,
26:09and those are the ones who are always getting promoted.
26:12So you have to look at the pattern as in who are the ones who are always shining.
26:19And the other, I would say, is micromanagement.
26:26So some people would say that micromanagement is a good thing because it at least helps us
26:32monitor what's going on, and I say there are other ways to monitor, not just, you know,
26:37when you start going beyond micromanagement and you start controlling how an individual
26:43performs their responsibilities is when you are actually getting toxic because you're actually
26:51controlling not just the behavior but also the way that person performs the task.
26:56So it makes them feel like they're a robot, not a human.
27:00People checking out, as in mentally, that we discussed, like, they stop giving ideas.
27:07They stop contributing to anything.
27:11Lack of teamwork, where people are just going opposite direction.
27:16Blame game is another one which is really top on the list, as in if I ask my team members,
27:22what happened to this project and why are there delays?
27:24Oh, she did it, she did it, she did it.
27:27Oh, I thought she would do it, she would do it, he would do it, and no one does it.
27:31So that's where you know there is no coordination.
27:34No one is acting like a team.
27:36Everyone is doing their job and sitting tight and waiting for the other person to fail.
27:41And that's a very big sign of toxic environment.
27:46I think we can all learn from this because, you know, I can see it in my own organization as
27:51well.
27:53I don't want to say I was blind to it, but, you know, you made me more aware of this.
27:59And if there is a message you want to pass to HR departments about a toxic workplace and how to
28:10avoid it,
28:11are there, like, is it a mechanical thing that, you know, one, two, three,
28:16or is it more of a qualitative conversation that you have with the employees?
28:23How does it work?
28:24Advise every single person who is heading up the HR department is to be in close contact with the leadership
28:32team.
28:32Let's say you have many departments in the organization.
28:35How closely you are interacting with every single person who heads up that department.
28:42When you are in close contact with the leadership team, you exactly know their style of leadership, right?
28:49And you always start with that.
28:51Sure.
28:51When you know the style of leadership, you exactly know, you can kind of do the predictive analysis,
28:57or you can do a service, but service come later.
29:02What I'm trying to say is much before the service happen.
29:06When you interact with the leadership team and you get thoroughly involved,
29:11not just in the hiring process, but in the appraisal process,
29:15you get a deeper insight into every single person working in the organization.
29:21We often say that, oh, well, you know, the appraisals are between the employee and the appraising and the appraiser.
29:30Right.
29:31But I say get involved.
29:33If you do even five appraisals together or five interviews together,
29:38you would exactly know what they need.
29:41And now you are into the department working alongside,
29:47helping them with every single problem that they encounter while they run the department.
29:54The biggest gap that I see that happens in the organization,
29:59HR department does not get involved operationally, which is where things slip.
30:06Toxicity builds in the departments HR is not informed of.
30:09And they come to know at a very later stage.
30:13But if they start getting involved in every single department,
30:19start getting in touch with people, individual level,
30:23not just when they have grievances or they are doing an exit interview
30:27or if someone is going on leave and then you are talking to them about whatever questions they might have.
30:33But operationally, if you join hands with every single department head,
30:38you will be able to operate better, you will be able to hire better,
30:43you will be able to sustain better.
30:45And that is important.
30:47The disconnect that we have between HR and the department heads is the main issue that I see.
30:54And truly, like I've known this before, HR is a partner.
30:58I mean, this is how, you know, they're a partner to the business,
31:03they're a partner to the business units and so forth.
31:06Occasionally, that doesn't work.
31:07And this becomes, you know, is this a policy you're imposing on us
31:11versus a policy that you're working with us to implement?
31:15And I think this is where many organizations fail at is they don't see HR as a partner.
31:24One thing I, you know, the size of the organization, does it matter in terms of what we talked about?
31:32Like a startup, maybe they can't afford to have that partnership role with HR.
31:39I mean, maybe they're just outsourcing the bits and pieces and HR entails so many things, obviously.
31:46Does that matter, like, on the size of the organization?
31:49Yes, it does.
31:50So when you are small, let's say a startup, what do you do?
31:53You wear many hats as the CEO.
31:56You're also the CFO and you possibly are the CMO.
32:00You're all the C's put together, right?
32:02Now, definitely, you cannot afford to hire a full-time HR advisor or, you know, HR manager.
32:12But what you must have is somebody who advises you, can be outsourced,
32:18somebody who advises you constantly where you're going wrong.
32:25Because I don't believe there is any startup founder or the CEO who does not have this going on in
32:35their head,
32:35as in, am I doing the right thing?
32:37That's when you need that advice.
32:39So if you're double thinking, let's say, or double guessing, and if you think that, no, this is not right,
32:45maybe I should be more fair to this person, but now I'm in conflict and I'm stuck between two managers
32:51who are possibly doing power play.
32:54How do I deal with that?
32:56If you can't afford bringing a full-time person, do take advice from an expert.
33:01And when you are taking someone's advice, all you need to make sure is be transparent enough,
33:08not take sides, but present the scenario to that person as is,
33:14so that that person can advise you on how to deal with the situation.
33:17So you take baby steps.
33:18So now today you have an advisor and then that advisor, the hours will increase as you grow
33:24because, of course, you will need, you'll have more scenarios to talk.
33:27Of course.
33:28You'll have more double thinking, double guessing, second guessing,
33:32and then you'll have to take more decisions.
33:34So what they bring to the table is the right kind of advice
33:37because they've seen many organizations, they've dealt with a lot of scenarios,
33:42and they've seen the results and consequences of short-term profits
33:47that people focus on, how do you sustain, how do you take the right decision.
33:52And then slowly and gradually, when you grow to that level,
33:56you have a full-time HR and the most, the biggest challenge that they face at that point,
34:02when they've grown to a level, they are 50, 55, 60 people.
34:06Now, the kind of advice, the kind of HR manager they need is still beyond their budget
34:13because what they need is an advisory function more than an operational HR.
34:19So that's where I say for operational HR, you can manage with more of an administrative tasks and all,
34:26but keep that advisor always available on call.
34:30You can have different terms and conditions with them so that you are getting advice from somebody
34:37who's an expert in their field, and at the same time, they come with experience
34:44where they have seen many cases and dealt with so many situations,
34:47and they can kind of predict the consequences.
34:50Would you call that a fractional?
34:52Yeah, definitely.
34:55Shifting gears to talk more about mental health and mental wellness in the workplace,
35:01organizations talk quite a bit about mental health, and we've seen it, we've talked about it, we've heard it.
35:09What does it mean to you?
35:10To be honest, any organization that says, or this is what they tell their employees that,
35:17oh, you know what, we've come up with a budget of $100,000 in the year 2026 for your mental
35:24health,
35:24and that's all rubbish.
35:27Because you can't guarantee anybody's well-being by conducting workshops.
35:36I want to ask you a question.
35:37How many people report to you?
35:40I think around 12.
35:4212?
35:43Okay, that's a good number.
35:44Yeah.
35:44Can you identify who has the following?
35:52Fear of failure?
35:53I can.
35:55Procrastination?
35:58No.
35:59No, right?
36:00Yeah.
36:01Low self-esteem?
36:04I can't.
36:05Yeah.
36:06So, these are just a few, just three that I said, right?
36:10And there are so many.
36:12What do you call these?
36:13Limiting beliefs, right?
36:17And this is with every single person.
36:20Now, I could be an expert in procrastination.
36:24I know I need to send an email, right?
36:27At three, it should go out.
36:29And I have it ready at 1.30.
36:31I'm not going to send, right?
36:33I have to work on a presentation, which is due tomorrow.
36:38And I'm not going to work until tomorrow morning when I'll sit down.
36:42And I know in 10 minutes I'll be done with it, right?
36:45And then there are so many examples.
36:48Low self-esteem, procrastination.
36:51We face, so we have humans who are working with us, right?
36:56We don't have robots, so they can never be perfect.
36:58But there is always going to be something that you can work on in order to make them perfect.
37:04Or just close to perfect, because we're not looking for perfection.
37:07When you work on these limiting beliefs, there is so much value that you add to every single person,
37:16because this makes them excel at their job.
37:20My best friend works in a bank and at a very senior position.
37:28Very good at what he does, but cannot, is not a public speaker.
37:34And at the same time, it's not just public speaking.
37:38Even presentations, when he sees a couple of people all gathered in a conference room
37:44and he needs to present something, it makes him nervous.
37:50Now, when he contacted me and he said,
37:53you know what, I have this problem and I really feel that I'm losing confidence.
37:59I'm so good at what I do, but when I want to present a report or anything to the management,
38:07I start shivering, and that is really affecting my confidence.
38:13Nobody knows about that.
38:16And we talk about mental health.
38:19We talk about workshops.
38:20So this is what I say.
38:22It cannot, you can't have workshops and, you know, guarantee people an environment
38:31which is, you know, good for them or their well-being.
38:37If you identify people who need help and they will never be open to you
38:44because then they are telling you...
38:46Their weaknesses.
38:46Yeah, but do you have a culture where they can actually tell you their weakness?
38:50Now we are coming back to toxic environment and healthy culture.
38:54And the competitiveness.
38:55Yes, exactly.
38:56So are you transparent enough as an organization or as a leader that people can talk to you
39:03about their limiting beliefs without you judging them or without you using those against them?
39:10Let me ask you, can leaders prompt them?
39:14Of course.
39:15You know, by doing...
39:17I don't want to go to the workshop, but maybe doing training for public speaking
39:22as a way to overcome this.
39:25So instead of waiting for the employee to come and they, like you said, they will not
39:29come to you, maybe we should be taking the initiative.
39:35Leaders always, they know what is happening in the organization more than the people sitting
39:40on the top.
39:41And they exactly know what everyone is capable of.
39:45They know the capabilities of each and every person on their team.
39:48And if they don't know, then we are talking about something else.
39:52So if it's a true leader, they would actually know where to support you.
39:59Now, if I know that you are very good at your job, but with a little bit of support,
40:05in boosting little confidence, you'll start flying, why wouldn't I support you?
40:10But only when I'm able to identify, and the reason I won't be able to identify is I do not
40:19let
40:19that barrier to break between me and them.
40:23If I'm a leader who offers 100% support without judging them, without telling them tomorrow,
40:32oh, you didn't perform, it's just because of that.
40:34No.
40:34Then they will never come to you for help.
40:37But if I'm a leader who is open and who wants to consciously make every single person on my team
40:45grow, they will come to you.
40:47And they will tell you.
40:49Then, for you, the responsibility should be to map every single thing out on a piece of paper,
40:56recommend that to HR, and it can be anything.
40:59Let's say you put an employee in a situation where that employee is experiencing burnout.
41:05Their psychological safety and repair is your responsibility.
41:11So even if you have to tell your HR to send them for anything, any workshop which is more
41:18into building their psychological awareness or health or using the tools, you should be okay
41:26to do that, and you shouldn't feel, your people shouldn't be feeling that fear in them.
41:31If I talk to my manager about my mental health, I'll be the first one to be terminated.
41:36When you run that fear in the organization, people will not speak.
41:41I wanted to interrupt you with a story.
41:43You know, we're all under pressure, you know, all of that work-wise.
41:47But I know I asked an employee to go on a vacation.
41:52It was a paid vacation that we paid him to go.
41:56And it was to one of those exotic islands.
41:58Nice.
41:59Right.
42:00Can I be our next employee?
42:02And I'll tell you, the feedback that came back was just amazing.
42:06Yeah.
42:06Like it's a reset button that you hit.
42:09Not in terms of their productivity, but their outlook on the company itself.
42:15You know, this is a company that believed in me and gave me an opportunity to do something
42:21that I never thought about.
42:24So, you know.
42:25It doesn't stop there.
42:26When you make an employee experience something which is extraordinary, which they were not
42:33expecting, which comes to them as a surprise, a reward for their performance, the experience
42:39and the emotions do not remain to themselves only.
42:43It goes and stretches beyond that.
42:46It touches each and every member in the family as well.
42:49Right.
42:49It's a celebration.
42:50Mm-hmm.
42:51You're not celebrating.
42:52But everyone in your family is experiencing that celebration.
42:56When you send somebody to a vacation, the experience of that vacation, you don't know.
43:03They were working like 24 hours, seven days a week and promising their family, okay, let
43:09me get done with this and then we'll take a break.
43:12That break has a lot of value in it, in itself.
43:17So, it goes beyond what you think as an experience.
43:20It's not limited just to an employee experience and expressing their gratitude.
43:25So, when they come back, they're fully charged and they have full family support as well.
43:30It's unlike the cases where you make somebody work and they're extremely burnt out and next
43:37time they will not have this family support.
43:39In fact, they will have blame from the family that your organization always is doing this
43:43to you.
43:44And then there is no break.
43:46There's no...
43:46But when you reward appropriately and you make sure that not just them, but the family is
43:52also affected by the reward, you're actually multiplying and increasing the output more the
43:59next time they come back on the next project.
44:02I have to give this example.
44:04I mean, I really hope and wish that we're running a healthy organization.
44:09But this morning, I received an email from an employee saying she needs to take time off
44:16because she's getting married.
44:19But she will take her laptop with her on honeymoon.
44:23Wow.
44:24Okay.
44:25And I looked at it.
44:26I mean, while I appreciate the loyalty to the organization, I wrote back and said, it's
44:38your honeymoon.
44:39It's your wedding.
44:40This is not what you do.
44:41So, is there a reason why an employee would go that far?
44:48Is there a fear?
44:50Yes.
44:50I would say yes.
44:52A fear of losing their job while they're away.
44:58And it does happen a lot of times.
45:00I have seen that happening a lot of times with people.
45:04They just don't leave.
45:05They don't want to leave just because they want to make their manager feel that they're
45:10indispensable.
45:11And in my language, nobody is indispensable.
45:13Absolutely.
45:14In the corporate world, everybody can be replaced.
45:17Yes, when people leave, there is a little bit of hit that the organization takes.
45:20But then every organization has ability to recover.
45:26There could be two reasons.
45:28Fear of losing their job and losing the ground.
45:32The second could be the broken system.
45:35You can't function without that person.
45:37So, it's not their problem.
45:38It's your problem.
45:39Right?
45:40So, you decide.
45:41You said you received a call.
45:42You decide which one is that.
45:45So, if it's a broken system, then you'll have to make sure that while everyone deserves
45:52a break and special moments, of course, if a person is getting married, they can't be
45:55on their laptop while they are on honeymoon.
45:58Right?
45:58I did that, but that's a different story.
46:01Yeah, our generation.
46:02But if that is happening very, very regularly, like every single employee goes on leave
46:09and still works, then there's something wrong that's happening in the organization that
46:17do we not have the second in command where the responsibilities could be shifted while
46:23this person is away or that person is deliberately doing that.
46:27So, that's what's something that you need to understand.
46:31This question is a bit challenging because we talked about all the negativity.
46:39Let me talk about a positive environment.
46:43Do you believe positive environment may have negative impact on the organization?
46:50Yes, because there are some organizations, they're full of positivity, and nobody wants
46:56to be seen as a negative person.
46:59So, I feel you can be positive, but at the same time, you should be open to feedback.
47:08But people have different styles of expressing themselves.
47:12Like, my style of giving you feedback may not necessarily be positive, because how can you
47:19give a negative feedback in a positive way?
47:21Not always.
47:22Right.
47:23Sometimes it's very situation-based where I could be just pissed off.
47:26So, the language that I'm going to use while I'm pissed off may not be very polished.
47:32So, and again, you will not have all positive humans under one roof.
47:38You'll have different people, different personalities, and they have different style of delivery.
47:42So, I say when you speak about positivity in the organization, you should actually talk about
47:54constructive feedback, but at the same time, allow people to express negative emotions as well.
48:01That gives people a much better expression of themselves.
48:06Because I've seen in organizations where they were too positive, and everything was positive,
48:14where the truth started dying, honesty started dying, because people didn't want to seem as negative.
48:21Why am I the only one always talking about negativity?
48:25Am I the only person?
48:27So, that's where they stop themselves.
48:30And when they stop themselves, you will hardly have anybody coming to you with an issue.
48:37We want people to come to us with issues so that we can resolve.
48:41When there are no issues, there's no resolution, there's no resolution, means everything is perfect.
48:46There can never be an organization fully perfect.
48:48So, it's not, you know, having a free ice cream on a weekday doesn't fix the problem here.
48:55Yeah, true, true.
48:56Definitely.
48:56Yeah.
48:57It goes deeper than that.
48:58The exit interviews that every organization have in place.
49:03My first question to you, is it of any value?
49:07And then two, what do you read out of an exit interview?
49:11What do you think?
49:15There are parts of it that I read into, but there are other parts where I feel like this individual
49:22checked out.
49:23So, I don't know how much of the feedback is of value.
49:28Of course, sometimes it is.
49:30But, you know, it's a case-by-case, I guess, about the individual.
49:34Why did they leave?
49:35That makes me, you know, have a better idea behind the reason of this exit interview.
49:41So, I think two thoughts.
49:43As in, there could be people leaving the organization thinking, you know what, I'm already out.
49:49Why do I need to speak negative about anybody?
49:52It's about relationship, reference check, background check.
49:56And, you know, you should never burn bridges is something that people say very often.
50:01So, you never know when you need them in future.
50:05So, let me just, you know, be cordial and leave the organization, not say a word.
50:09They are happy, I'm happy, and we move on.
50:12But there will always be people who will be extremely pissed off and are not leaving on good terms.
50:19And they will make sure that they will tell every piece of information to HR.
50:25Just, I'm not saying it's revenge, but at the same time, they felt upset about something.
50:30And they want to express themselves.
50:32And they also want to tell this to HR with a view that HR is going to take that feedback
50:37and make things better for other people who are staying in the organization.
50:41So, yes and no, sometimes it can be useful because it can really give you information that you can use
50:50in order to make things better for people who are still working in the organization.
50:57And somewhere you can't find stuff, unfortunately.
51:01But the role that HR should be playing here is not to wait until anybody's exit interview.
51:10They should already know what's happening in the organization.
51:14And you nip it in the bud, as in when you see things happening which are not aligned with your
51:22culture,
51:22not aligned with your values, because somebody coming and bursting, and then you finding out,
51:29oh, and then you turning, you know, into that shocking situation.
51:34The damage is done.
51:36Yeah, the damage is done.
51:37One, it means that you are not quite hands-on.
51:40Because if you are hands-on and you are in touch with every single department head,
51:45you are working with them, you should know what's happening.
51:50And it's not difficult to know.
51:53It's a good reminder.
51:55Gulneet, a way to conclude this episode, very insightful.
52:01What advice would you give to an HR leader who's listening to this conversation today?
52:06Employees think that we should be on their side.
52:09We are for them.
52:11But in reality, we sit at the intersection of business, people, and risk.
52:18Our main job is to balance all three.
52:22We take a special place on the table, which is rented, and we pay that rent every single day
52:29by balancing and making both the organization and the employees grow.
52:38So we are not here to take sides.
52:40People think that we should be on the side of people, employees.
52:44But in reality, we have a very crucial role to play, which is to maintain a balance in the organization,
52:51to tell the management when they go wrong, and to give them the right piece of advice.
52:57And that is only for the interest of the organization.
53:01And same goes with employees.
53:03If we have to deliver a tough message, which is not possibly in everyone's favor,
53:09there will be some people not very happy with the decision.
53:13But how do you make sure that people are not affected adversely,
53:19and you're keeping still a tone of fairness in the organization by balancing both sides?
53:25And that is the role of HR.
53:27Just want to wrap up with something I, you know, as I was listening to Guneet throughout this time.
53:37I think the bravest leader is not someone who builds a product or pivot a company.
53:45It is someone who sets a culture in their organization that will always take them forward.
53:53It's not about a product or a service.
53:58It's about how we treat our own employees in an organization.
54:02And I think this is where leadership comes through.
54:04Right.
54:05I want to add something.
54:07So, one of my very dear friends, Bruce Cryer, he is the ex-CEO of HeartMath Institute,
54:13and an organization that focuses on well-being of employees and training them to achieve the best output.
54:24He once said, which is something really meaningful,
54:30intellect is the engine of the organization, but passion is the fuel.
54:37So, the more you focus on building passion in employees, the more successful the organization will become.
54:46And that responsibility is with the leadership.
54:50Thank you, Guneet, for the conversation.
54:53You're welcome.
54:54Time is up.
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