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Delhi Gymkhana Club approached the Delhi High Court challenging the Centre's directive to vacate its 27.3-acre premises by June 5.
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00:00The Delhi Gymkhana Club approached the Delhi High Court today, challenging the Centre's
00:04directive, ordering it to vacate its iconic 27.3-acre premises in Luttian's Delhi by June 5th.
00:11Some of the country's leading bureaucrats, generals and others are members of the club.
00:15The High Court has now agreed to hear the case on the 26th of May. On May 22nd, the Land
00:20and
00:20Development Office of the Government directed the club to hand over possession of its sprawling
00:25property at 2 Saptarjang Road, not far away from the Prime Minister's office. According
00:30to the Centre, the land is, because it's located close to the Prime Minister's residence and
00:35other high-security establishments, is needed to strengthen defence infrastructure and other
00:41critical public security requirements. I want to raise some big questions, though, at the
00:47manner in which this has happened. Is the Modi government justified in taking over the Delhi
00:52Gymkhana? Is takeover simply a land grab by the government? Are clubs today symbols of
00:57elite privilege? Is the Delhi Gymkhana a soft target in a way for the Modi government? Let's
01:03go to our talking point.
01:06And joining me now on our big talking point today is Dullat, former Raw Chief and importantly
01:11also a past President of the Delhi Gymkhana from 2005 to 2007. Subhash Chandragarh, former
01:18finance secretary, was a member of the club for a few years. And Ashok Khemka, former
01:24additional chief secretary in the government of Haryana, he has come out strongly against
01:29the way the Delhi Gymkhana was functioning. Why do you believe, Ashok Khemka, let's start
01:35with you and play devil's advocate. Why do you believe that this is the right decision the
01:40government has taken to take over the land of the prestigious Delhi Gymkhana in the heart
01:45of the national capital?
01:49Rajdeep, I have tweeted this reasoning that why I support government action on this particular
01:54issue. This is 27.3 acres of prime land on Safdarjung Road and adjacent to the Prime Minister's
02:03office. The land has been taken, the lease has been terminated on the ground of defence needs
02:10of the country. Now, as civil servants, we cannot sit over the government judgment whether it is
02:17required for defence needs or whether defence needs have primacy or not. Otherwise, also on merits,
02:23you see this land of 27.3 acres on Safdarjung Road would be valued at at least 10,000 crores.
02:32And the lease
02:33rental of this prime land at even 5% of its capital value would amount to a substantial 500 crores
02:42plus.
02:43Now, can you give away this land to a select few of 5,000 members for social bonding,
02:50this value at a paltry 1,000 rupees of lease rent? This is the larger question. So, both on the
02:59grounds of
03:00defence needs, as stated by the government of India in its notice, and that whether such prime land of
03:09such value whose opportunity cost of this land is 500 crores of lease rental per year, this can be given
03:16to a select, you know, list. And there is a huge waiting list of 30 years, not a single sports
03:23person
03:23has been recruited, which was one of its activities, objectives of promoting sports. Now, which sports
03:29person has been made a member, a young sports person? Can this club lay claim of that they have helped
03:36in,
03:36you know, achieving for India a single medal at one of the marquee events like the Olympic Games?
03:42Now, much smaller pieces of land in the hinterlands of the state I had served for 35 years, have been
03:49churning out medals for the country. And this particular club sitting over 27.3 acres.
03:59You've made your point very strongly. Mr. Dullat, you should respond to this. Mr. Khemka is saying that
04:06this land essentially is a classic example, I'm now paraphrasing what Mr. Khemka is saying,
04:13is for the privileged elite, it has been given at throwaway prices, and it hasn't even fulfilled one of
04:20its core purposes, which was to promote, according to Mr. Khemka, an Olympian-like sporting culture.
04:27Your response, that clubs cannot just be about social bonding, and if they are, then they must be paying
04:32market rents. They don't get it for free, simply because they are of the privileged elite. Your response?
04:41Yeah, yeah, Rajdeep, I don't think Mr. Khemka knows about the Jimkhana club.
04:46You say he's been a member. I must say he's been a very poor member of the Jimkhana club.
04:53Let me correct you, I am not a member, and I aspire to be a member.
04:58Okay, okay, okay. Then maybe Mr. Khemka's grouse is that he was not a member of the Jimkhana club.
05:07No, I do not have any such grouse, Mr. Dullat. Please don't make it personal.
05:12I never aspire to be a member of this elite club, and I have never aspired to any such club
05:18of this country.
05:19I am talking about an elite. So please don't get personal. Please talk about America, Mr. Dullat.
05:23Okay, Mr. Khemka, you made your point. You did not want to... Mr. Dullat, respond to the core issue.
05:27Which elite are you talking about?
05:28Go ahead. Mr. Dullat, why do you believe that the club should not be taken over by the government?
05:36Because this is, you know, it's heartbreaking in the sense that there are people who live there all the time.
05:45You know, they are elderly people. I'm getting old myself. I don't use the club every day.
05:50But let me give you an example. There is one of our senior colleagues, Mr. O.P. Bhutani. He's 97
05:57now.
05:58He still goes to the club twice a day, twice a week on Wednesdays and Saturdays.
06:03And he has nowhere else to go. And there are a lot of others like that.
06:06And I'll tell you, when I joined the Jimkhana club, when I first came to Delhi in March 1969,
06:12to join the Intelligence Bureau, our deputy director in charge of administration asked me two things.
06:22He said, do you have a place to stay? I said, I'm staying with my parents.
06:26He said, no, no, that's not good enough. You better apply for accommodation.
06:30And then he said, you better apply for membership of the Delhi Jimkhana club.
06:34Now, if that is elitist, then I think every government servant who has been a member of the Jimkhana club,
06:42and it has been mostly government officials who have been members of the Jimkhana club.
06:48As you said, I've been president of that club for two years.
06:52I knew every member at that point of time. And it was a home away from home for everybody.
06:58Yeah, but it may be a home away from home, but look at the rents, look at the rents that
07:04the club was paying.
07:04Yeah, yeah. Okay, let me come to Mr. Let me come to Mr. Khemka's point about producing sports people.
07:12Let me remind him, I don't know if he's ever heard of Sumanth Mishra. Sumanth Mishra was, you know, a
07:18renowned Indian tennis player who played Davis Cup, yeah, played Davis Cup for a number of years.
07:24And he was a prominent member of the Jimkhana club. Likewise, now, there's a lady who was a spouse member
07:33because her husband is dead, Mrs. Sonia Pandi.
07:37Her husband, Prem Padi, was a known tennis player. And he played at the Jimkhana every day.
07:44But Mr. Dullat, with due regard, a couple of people playing high-level sports, forget the sport bit, do you
07:55believe that a club, which is essentially about, presumably about socializing, recreation and informal space, let's say for trust building,
08:03unwinding from your government jobs in many cases,
08:07Do you believe that place should have prime property in the heart of Delhi, where it does not pay what
08:14any other club would have to pay for a similar privilege?
08:19So now, if it's a question of payments, then I think the government has to figure out how much we
08:27need to pay or not need to pay.
08:29My question, let me reverse that question and ask you, what about people who paid 30 lakhs to get a
08:35membership of the Jimkhana club?
08:37What about all of us who've been paying so much for membership of the Jimkhana club? What is going to
08:42happen to that?
08:44And mind you, I come back to that, Rajdeep, you understand sports better than anybody else, you know?
08:52Your father was a great Indian test batsman.
08:58This Jimkhana is about sports.
09:01All of us have been playing games there.
09:04I played tennis there, I played squash there, I swam there.
09:07Maybe now I can't play tennis, I'm too old, but I still swim there.
09:11No, but is it about sport or is it about heritage?
09:13Is it about sport or is it about the heritage?
09:16Are you trying to fight to preserve a certain heritage?
09:19That may be an argument.
09:20To say I want to preserve it because the members want to play sport.
09:24They can play it somewhere else.
09:25Why in the heart of the national capital?
09:29Yeah, yeah, you can say that about any place or any club then.
09:33Then close down all the clubs.
09:38Why are you picking on the oldest and one of the best clubs in the country?
09:43Okay, Subhashgarh respond.
09:45I don't see the sense in this.
09:46Okay, you've heard two contrary views.
09:48I'm not saying that the government is entitled to do what it likes, but I don't think this is the
09:54best, this thing.
09:55Okay, respond Subhashgarh.
09:58See, Rajdeep, I think let's get the facts together.
10:02Number one, it was a perpetually set up more than 100 years back for the entertainment, socialization of the defense
10:09forces, people, later civil servants, etc.
10:13Lots of civil servants live in this area.
10:16They need some place for networking, meetings, sports, library and other things.
10:23There is no other club over there.
10:25So, to my mind, there was a great need, justification for this club.
10:32Over the years in this area, lots of security, lots of prime ministerial and other buildings have come up, which
10:39might have and has reduced the sort of appropriateness of this club being right there.
10:46There have also been lots of disputes between the armed forces, civil servants.
10:51The club was also mismanaged.
10:54But the manner in which the government has taken it over, I think, is more indicative of the hubris than
11:03the purpose.
11:05It can be released, can be resumed for public purpose.
11:10They have stated only that there is some defense requirement, public needs requirement, without specifying them.
11:18I think the right way to proceed is that the civil servants and the defense people need some place for
11:27socializing.
11:28Maybe this place is not the most appropriate.
11:31An alternative need to be found out.
11:34And by specifying what exactly the use the government intends to put it to, I think it can be taken
11:42over.
11:42But the manner in which it has been done, I think it smacks off.
11:46So you're saying due process, you're questioning the sudden ad hocism in a way of the takeover.
11:53Am I correct?
11:55Correct.
11:55Almost like a firman.
11:57It's indicative of hubris, as I said.
12:01I don't understand why suddenly you come out and you cite unspecific defense needs and public goods and just order
12:12everyone.
12:12There are 14,000, 15,000 members.
12:16There are thousands of workers who work there.
12:19These members will go where from 5th June onwards?
12:25What would happen to their investments which they have made, their membership rights and all?
12:31I think the least the government should have done is to find an alternative place and say that, all right,
12:38you shift here.
12:39We'll help you.
12:40You're taking over the buildings, courts, everything, without paying anything to them.
12:45That has not been billed by the government money.
12:47That has been billed by the members' contribution and all.
12:51So take it over, provide an alternative place, support the club and then…
12:57I take your point, Mr. Gara.
13:00I want to take that to you, Mr. Khemka.
13:02You know, one of the interesting arguments, Mr. Khemka, which is being made, elitism, elitism, Luttian's elite.
13:07I mean, these are the same government servants, the generals who work for the government.
13:12Is the government of the day saying that those who work for us are part of the privileged elite?
13:16They will retain all their ministerial bungalows.
13:19They will retain all the perks.
13:21They will retain their club with all new facilities at taxpayers' expense.
13:26But no, the club in some ways is a symbol of an imperial elitism.
13:31There's a double standard hypocrisy there as well.
13:34No, Dazdeep, let me respond to that.
13:37You see, number one, one wrong does not justify another wrong.
13:41And number two, if you see the present Prime Minister Narendra Modi ji, when he ascended to the Delhi Darbar
13:48in 2014,
13:51he was absolutely pro-people in his approach and this Luttian's elitism was against his DNA culture.
14:00So, this must be understood that this is what essentially our Prime Minister is.
14:06What is Luttian's elite?
14:08One elite is being replaced by another.
14:09Are you telling me those who are occupying ministerial bungalows are not part of the new elite of this country?
14:14Look, listen, Razdeep, the ostensible purpose of taking over the site is the defence needs.
14:19Please see, this site is adjacent to the Prime Minister's residence.
14:24And tomorrow, if there is one incident which happens,
14:28now which member of the club is going to come forward and take responsibility, own up responsibility,
14:33if there is one incident?
14:35But no other Prime Minister objected to it for 30 years.
14:37How come suddenly the objection?
14:39No, that doesn't mean anything.
14:40The government of the day, there are new technologies, new drone warfares,
14:44the new intelligence, AI is coming up.
14:46Today, there are new risk threats coming up.
14:49And you cannot say that since 30 years, government has not invoked the right under Clause 4 of the agreement.
14:54It has no right to do so and it has done very validly under the defence needs.
14:59It has not done under the mismanagement of the club.
15:02And regarding Mr. Gurgh's assertion regarding two points,
15:06regarding some 600 odd employees who will be laid off,
15:09I would suggest that the government should give them a golden handshake
15:12or the members may contribute and give them golden handshake
15:15or re-employ them in some concern.
15:17Why not give them alternate?
15:18No, why not give the club alternate space?
15:20Absolutely.
15:21Why not give the club an alternate space?
15:23Are you telling me bureaucrats have no right to have any social place of social bonding?
15:27Give the club an alternate space.
15:29Absolutely, you know, seconded.
15:32But at the same time, do not close the membership.
15:35The membership is close to 5,000 members and there is no new entry.
15:40So, any civil service, they should define.
15:42The club should define that this category of civil service,
15:45once he enters the service, becomes automatic member subject to certain contributions.
15:50So, this is not a gated club that, look, I'll allow you in and I don't allow you in.
15:56Okay.
15:56So, this cannot be the…
15:57Okay, interesting because a similar thing happened in Bombay
16:00where another club of which I am a member was,
16:03its lease was coming to an end.
16:05The government intervened and as part of the deal,
16:08ensured that bureaucrats then got membership.
16:10So, everyone wants at one level to be part of this Eritka,
16:14but, you know, the time in a way Mr. Dullat has come.
16:18That some of these privileges cannot be that you create a gated community.
16:21You have these…
16:23A membership that a citizen will only get membership after 20, 25 years
16:29while the sons and daughters of the members will get their membership automatically.
16:33All of this has to change also in some way or the other.
16:36It cannot remain the same forever, Mr. Dullat.
16:38Nobody gets membership automatically, Rajdeep.
16:44If you know the clubs of India,
16:48everywhere, children of members do get preference, you know.
16:53There is an advantage of being a member's son or a daughter or a child or whatever it is.
17:00There is an advantage.
17:01But it doesn't mean that automatically they become members.
17:05No, but Mr. Khemka is saying you're creating a small gated community.
17:08You're creating a small gated community of the privilege.
17:11You're not opening it up.
17:15Open it to whom?
17:18I am in favor of stopping all membership, you know.
17:22I agree with Mr. Khemka or whoever it is that there are people who had to wait 30 years to
17:28get membership.
17:29And it's not very fair.
17:30Why do you keep somebody waiting for 30 years?
17:34When I was president, I came across a gentleman who was from UP and he said, you know, I want
17:44membership.
17:44He was about 60 years old.
17:46I said, what do you want to do with membership now?
17:48And he showed me photographs when he used to play tennis at the Gymkhana Club.
17:52Basically, this has been a club for government servants, whether it's from the defense or the civil servants, you know.
17:59And they do get preference.
18:01But you know that…
18:02So, I would say, I would suggest that that outside membership should be stopped.
18:09That's one way of dealing with it.
18:11Well, that would all again create…
18:13You know this question on the Prime Minister's…
18:14That would again create the impression that this is a…
18:15One minute.
18:16I take your point, Mr. Dullat.
18:18I want to give a final word to you, Mr. Garg.
18:23You've suggested an alternative.
18:24Give an alternative accommodation, follow due process.
18:27You seem to believe that this entire way in which it is being done is objectionable.
18:32It conveys the impression of almost a monarchical diktat.
18:36Am I clear?
18:37In order to remove the so-called elitist club, you are resorting to a monarchical diktat.
18:42That's your problem.
18:44See, Rajdeep, for the last four years, this club is being managed by a government body.
18:50So, anybody alleging that mismanagement can be a ground or preventing membership, etc.,
18:55can be a ground for taking over now.
18:57The land is working at the wrong door.
19:02You can reform the membership rules.
19:04You can reform…
19:06No, no.
19:06According to Mr. Khenkar, this is because of defense and security needs.
19:10National security defense needs is the reason why the government needs it.
19:14It's too close to the prime minister's residence.
19:17No, no.
19:18Prime minister's residence, by the way, prime minister's residence is being shifted somewhere else.
19:23It's not going to be there.
19:25This is a temporary residence.
19:26And these arguments that you're sitting next door only can become a security risk.
19:31It's not a…
19:31And by the way, that has not been specified.
19:34What has been specified is the defense infrastructure and public goods.
19:38It's not the prime minister's residence threat which has been specified.
19:42So, you have to specify the public.
19:44You can't simply use any word to take away these valuable rights.
19:50Okay.
19:51You know, Mr. Dullat, you just heard also Mr. Khenkar saying that this is Lattien's elite.
19:56You are part of Lattien's elite.
19:57And the prime minister has said, I'm going to now cut the Lattien's elite down to size.
20:02Your response?
20:06Yeah, yeah.
20:06Fair enough.
20:07I mean, if he wants to cut it down to size, you can't argue against the prime minister or
20:12the government of India.
20:13It's all right.
20:14But this question about the prime minister's security that somebody raised, this has been
20:19reviews done by the SPG a number of times.
20:22It was done when I was president.
20:24And they said there is no threat from the Gymkhana Club to this thing.
20:29The only thing they said was that loud music should stop at certain times.
20:33That's all.
20:34You know, I…
20:36There was never a question of any threat.
20:37They looked at every building.
20:39They went up to everything.
20:40Okay.
20:41A final point, Mr. Khemka, you know, it's almost as if the Gymkhana is a soft target.
20:46Government servants will ensure their children will get the best admissions into the best
20:50school.
20:51Nobody there raises charges of elitism.
20:53Government servants and those in power and privilege will, as I said, get all the best
20:58ministerial bungalows, facilities.
20:59Nobody says elitism.
21:01Suddenly, Lattien's elite.
21:03The Delhi Gymkhana is a soft target.
21:05True or not?
21:07No, no.
21:08I don't agree that that is a soft target.
21:10The government has applied its considered mind and said that this is required for defence
21:14of the country.
21:16And as former civil servants, one must not question the wisdom of the government so lightly,
21:21unless there is very strong evidence in one's favour.
21:25If there is an incident, there was an attack on the parliament in our own country.
21:29There was pehlgaam.
21:31So, we are living in the hotbed of terrorism in South Asia where we are bordered by terrorists
21:36on both sides of the border.
21:39So, it is not that, you know, this threat can be taken too lightly.
21:42Because we have woken up to the security threat.
21:44But yes, there are two points.
21:44The club was being managed by the government for the last four years after charges of mismanagement
21:49and irregularities.
21:50Suddenly, we have woken up to the defence threat.
21:53No, this is not sudden.
21:54So, I would like to question the wisdom of the government unless you have evidence with
21:58you that this has been a colourable exercise of power.
22:02You must have solid evidence that there is a colourable show.
22:06Without that, regarding the two aspects, alternate space for the club, yes, I do support it in
22:13person.
22:14And the second is regarding the re-employment of the 600 people.
22:18Yes, I also support that the interests of the 600 employees must be taken care of by the
22:22members.
22:23And if the members are unable, then by the government of India.
22:26Okay.
22:26Yes, Mr. Dullad, you wanted to say something at the end.
22:29Very quickly.
22:30Rajdeep, one last, this thing.
22:33Let me ask whoever said that, you know, the staff should be given a golden handshake.
22:39I'm all for the staff.
22:41You know, I've always supported the staff.
22:43But what about the members getting a golden handshake?
22:47Let's leave it at that, sir.
22:49I think the members had a good time for the past hundred years.
22:53Now they want a golden handshake.
22:55Okay.
22:55Let's leave it there.
22:56Let me leave it there.
22:57Let me leave it there.
22:58I've heard three former bureaucrats and civil servants speaking on an issue which goes to
23:04the heart of, in a way, elite privilege, some would say.
23:08Others would say a crucial part of the history of Delhi and the national capital and important
23:15for social bonding.
23:16Thank you all very much for joining me on my talking point.
23:20Thank you, Rajdeep.
23:24Thank you very much to all my guests.
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