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00:28Transcribed by ESO, translated by —
00:59Transcribed by —
01:01Transcribed by —
01:01Anyway, I was expected to wake up at the crack of dawn and go out and watch it race at
01:06a dog track in Adelaide near the Bolivar Sewage Treatment Works.
01:10Now, it was cold and it was miserable, and because I'd never seen a dog race before, I didn't really
01:14understand how it worked.
01:24As far as I was concerned when it was all over, the mechanical rabbit had won.
01:28For me, it was an early exposure to the idea of a group of animals from the same species chasing
01:34another animal from a different species, powered by electricity.
01:40But how do children today get exposed to gambling?
01:45Perhaps the better question is, how can they avoid it?
01:48Hi kids!
01:49It's part and parcel of their world.
01:51Sports betting is a big concern.
01:53Do you know the brands?
01:54Sports bet.
01:54Sports bet.
01:56Ladbrokes.
01:56With children groomed to be tomorrow's gamblers.
01:59Do any of your friends gamble?
02:00Yeah.
02:01Easy prey for slick adverts.
02:03This is what men want.
02:04If you're an Aussie male, why aren't you doing this?
02:06Come on, cuz!
02:07And a new breed.
02:08Come on, come on, come on, come on.
02:09Popularising betting on social media.
02:11People are going, look who did that, I can do the exact same.
02:14The fight for change has begun.
02:16We're the biggest losers in the world, and we have an industry that is just running riot.
02:20With some taking a stand against gambling.
02:22Pokies are lazy, lazy income.
02:24But in the face of overwhelming odds.
02:26You see?
02:27The house always wins.
02:28Can we stop the next generation?
02:30Get gambling.
02:31Going for broke.
02:41Many things puzzle me about the modern world.
02:46Mixed martial arts, for example.
02:47That's another doco.
02:50Another is social media influencers.
02:52The digital hot rollers.
02:55You know, those people on our phones demonstrating how we can be fitter, thinner, healthier, happier and much more attractive.
03:05What's all this have to do with a show about gambling, I hear you cry?
03:09Well, you won't believe what happens next.
03:12Day five of trying to gamble my way from Australia to Vegas.
03:15Come on, cuz.
03:17Apparently gambling influencers are now a thing.
03:20Like this young man, Luca Kante.
03:23I'm at the casino doing $50 spins.
03:25Luca posts short videos of himself using poker machines.
03:29I'm thinking red.
03:29The wins.
03:30Oh!
03:32And the losses.
03:33Oh, I'm an idiot.
03:35All with his catchphrase.
03:36Come on, cuz.
03:37Come on, cuz.
03:38Come on, cuz.
03:41Come on, cuz.
03:44Come on, cuz.
03:44We're in.
03:45Oh, my God.
03:46Oh.
03:49Come on, cuz.
03:50Come on, cuz.
03:50Come on, cuz.
03:51Come on, cuz.
03:51Come on, cuz.
03:52Come on, cuz.
03:52Come on, cuz.
03:56I've come to Queensland to meet Luca.
04:02At a venue with all the glitz and glamour for which the Gold Coast is justly famous.
04:10Oh, it's like walking into the Bellagio in Vegas.
04:28And while I hadn't thought of poker machines as a spectator sport, Luca's pulled a crowd.
04:36Sorry.
04:37Can I just...
04:38Hi.
04:40Hey, Sean.
04:41Look at him.
04:42How's it?
04:43There we go.
04:47Oh, I'll try and walk you through it.
04:49Okay.
04:50So, I put $200 in.
04:51So, right now we've got $265.
04:55So, usually you'd go, $65 profit.
04:57Brilliant.
04:58Yes.
04:58Can't quit my day job, but this is why people watch me, cuz I do this silly stuff.
05:04The silly stuff, as Luca puts it, is betting all his winnings on either red or black.
05:09Okay.
05:10Ready?
05:12Oh!
05:14You did say clubs.
05:15So, we've lost that.
05:16Oh.
05:16Well, that's no fun.
05:18But that is why people watch me, Sean.
05:20If you don't show losses, there's no jeopardy in what you do.
05:22Yes.
05:23If you win every single time, then...
05:25They won't believe you anymore.
05:26You've got to show losses to make the good.
05:28And people will almost think it's fake.
05:29Exactly.
05:31In just over a year, Luca's amassed more than 260,000 followers on Instagram.
05:37Mostly young men.
05:39Yeah, too close.
05:40Some of Luca's posts have clocked more than a million views.
05:43And there you go.
05:45Extremes drive engagement.
05:47Win big or lose big, it doesn't matter which.
05:50Now it's the last spin.
05:51Come on.
05:52Last spin, last spin, last spin.
05:53Come on, come on, come on, come on.
05:55Either means lots of eyeballs.
05:58How much would you have to lose?
05:59I would have to lose a fair bit.
06:00What's a fair bit?
06:02Oh, it'd have to be in the thousands.
06:04But I can justify it because I can say it's my job.
06:08That's what I like to tell myself.
06:09Is it your job?
06:10Do you do nothing else to earn your income?
06:12Yeah, that's my job now, yeah.
06:13Really?
06:14Yeah.
06:15And you earn a good living?
06:17Well, I'm not driving around in a Lamborghini, but...
06:20Is the money that goes into your bank account only from the wins or do you monetise your...
06:25No, you've got to monetise your Instagram account.
06:29People go, where's your money come from?
06:30I'm an influencer at the end of the day.
06:32What does every other influencer do?
06:33Brand deals?
06:35CDs?
06:35I've got these.
06:36That's my saying.
06:38Oh, I see.
06:38Common Cars underwear.
06:39Okay.
06:39So I've got hats, underwear.
06:42Right.
06:43So that's a form of monetisation.
06:44You've got merch.
06:45Yes, merch.
06:45Merch.
06:46Exactly.
06:47And how much do your hats sell for?
06:5030 bucks.
06:5130 bucks.
06:51Oh, you're wearing a hat.
06:52There we are.
06:53Did you pay the full price for that?
06:55Oh, I got this one for free.
06:56Oh, there you go.
06:56You're not going to make any money doing that.
06:58I had to get a tattoo for it.
06:59You get a tattoo?
07:01Where's your tattoo, may I ask?
07:03Oh my God.
07:05Both of you.
07:06There's a real tattoo.
07:07He's a walking billboard now.
07:09Okay.
07:10Does anybody else play the pokies?
07:13You, sir?
07:13Anybody else?
07:14Yes, yes, yes, yes.
07:17A lot of money?
07:19One?
07:19No.
07:20You win some, you lose some.
07:22Okay.
07:22Is it more fun watching Luca play than it is playing yourself?
07:25Oh, you get the entertainment.
07:26If you don't want to gamble, you stop gambling, you can still watch him.
07:29Okay.
07:30If it wasn't for Luca, would you have tried the pokies?
07:32Oh, yeah.
07:34Yeah?
07:34It's Australian culture.
07:35You've got to...
07:36Yeah, it is.
07:37You're brought up with it.
07:38Yeah.
07:39Oh, yeah.
07:40Watching Luca play influencer in real time is, I must admit, a little disquieting.
07:45Watch this.
07:46Even when it's edited down, it seems to me that Luca's an ambassador for the gambling industry.
07:51And indeed, he does have brand deals with online betting agencies.
07:54It's 76 bucks.
07:55I lost 300 before.
07:56Hearts.
07:58You've got a suit at Luca.
08:00Do hearts for me.
08:01Do hearts.
08:03Oh!
08:05And that is why that is my job.
08:08That's my 300 back.
08:09And then take that.
08:10Yeah, yeah.
08:11See, I'm changing lives out here.
08:12You do.
08:13I've always thought the pokies an older person's thing.
08:16Yeah.
08:17Okay.
08:18But it's this generation that's using them the most.
08:21And then we'll go, come on, cuz.
08:23Sure.
08:23Got that?
08:24Got that, yeah.
08:25Influencers like Luca are one reason.
08:28I'm here with Sean filming a doco for the ABC.
08:31Come on, cuz.
08:32Come along, cousin.
08:34But maybe there's another.
08:38Some argue that video games are priming our children to become tomorrow's gamblers.
08:45In many games, players collect loot as they go.
08:49Things like weapons, in-game currency, maybe a fetching hat.
08:54The more proficient the player, the more loot they collect.
08:58Players can also use in-game currency to buy loot boxes.
09:02Their virtual treasure chests are virtual currency.
09:05But there's a catch.
09:07They can't find out what's in the box until they pay for it.
09:10It could be something appealing.
09:13Or it could be something that requires peeling.
09:18Whether loot boxes are Pandora's boxes or not,
09:22underage gambling in the real world is on the rise.
09:26In the last year, more than half a million 12- to 17-year-olds
09:30gambled more than $18 million.
09:34More teens may well be gambling on sport than actually playing it.
09:41That's enough to concern even someone who doesn't really care about sport like me.
09:46To find out how we reach such new lows, I'm scaling the heights of Wollongong.
09:53To insert myself into an afternoon of family fun.
09:58Watching footy on the telly.
10:03Hi kids.
10:04Hello.
10:04What's going on?
10:05What are you watching?
10:06Am I in the way?
10:08Yeah.
10:08I'll sit here.
10:10I bought bananas if you're interested.
10:14Looking for an option.
10:16Finds King Togia.
10:18It's the Dragons versus the Sea Eagles, which sounds very exciting.
10:24Where are his teeth blue?
10:25Because he's a mouth guard.
10:27Oh, mouth guard.
10:27Okay.
10:28Over the top.
10:29Good hand.
10:30Yes!
10:33Where's he holding his nose?
10:34High tackle.
10:35Because it was a high tackle.
10:36That's good, isn't it?
10:37No, not good.
10:38Good way of avoiding it is not to play.
10:42Children under 13 have never watched a football match without also seeing a betting commercial.
10:48In fact, young football fans are likely to see at least one gambling ad a week.
10:54Do you know the brands?
10:56Sportsbet.
10:56Sportsbet.
10:57Ladbrokes.
10:57Ladbrokes.
10:58Ned's.
10:59And they're inviting you to wager on the outcome of this game?
11:03Yeah.
11:03Or future games that day.
11:05Okay.
11:07Isn't it interesting enough just watching the game?
11:09Do you need to have any money riding on it?
11:11No, but it's exciting, you know?
11:13Because then if you win, you're really excited, I guess.
11:16So you get the winning feeling.
11:17What if there's money?
11:19Yeah.
11:19Right.
11:22These young people believe the game and the gambling go hand in glove.
11:26Oh, yeah.
11:28That's why I've invited Professor Alex Russell to gatecrash this afternoon as well.
11:33He's studying how all this exposure shapes teenage attitudes to betting.
11:38The normalisation of sports betting is a big concern.
11:41And for young people, they're seeing that all the way through their adolescence
11:44because there's so much advertising there.
11:46So by the time they hit 18, it's everywhere for them.
11:49They know exactly what they're doing.
11:51Alright.
11:52We're going to play a little bit of a game.
11:54I've got a bunch of pictures here.
11:55And you have to decide if you think the picture is more about sports or more about gambling.
12:00So the first one we're going to start with is this one.
12:04Sports.
12:04Sports.
12:05Sports.
12:05Sports.
12:09Sports.
12:10Yeah.
12:11Let's try this one.
12:15Gambling.
12:16Gambling.
12:18Gambling.
12:20Gambling.
12:20Gambling.
12:20Gambling.
12:20Gambling.
12:22Gambling.
12:23What have we got here?
12:24What is that?
12:25Gambling.
12:26Gambling.
12:27It's a betting website.
12:29But you guys are under 18.
12:31So how do you know what a gambling website looks like?
12:33Ads.
12:33All the ads online, like when you're watching the games.
12:36So you've seen these before?
12:38Yeah.
12:38You've seen ads?
12:40Yeah.
12:40Okay.
12:43In 2018, gambling commercials were banned during live TV sport before 8.30pm.
12:49Partly to stop children watching them.
12:52But since then, the number of betting ads across the rest of the television and radio schedules
12:57has increased by 50%.
13:02It's not just the on-air ads.
13:05At the stadium, gambling logos are more prolific than meat pies.
13:09And all that seeps into these malleable minds.
13:13I bought a jersey, but it looked different.
13:16And then I realised it didn't have a little points bet logo.
13:20Just like in between the logos.
13:23It was only little though.
13:24Yeah, but you still noticed it.
13:26Do any of your friends gamble?
13:28Do you know any of your friends who are under 18?
13:30Yeah.
13:32Yeah?
13:32What are they gambling on?
13:33Some of them go to the pokies and stuff and bet with their parents and stuff as well.
13:40Speaking of parents, how do they feel about their children passing the gambling knowledge
13:44test with flying colours?
13:47I was really surprised at how much they were aware.
13:51Are you surprised by that or is that something that you've taught them?
13:54It does feature in our house.
13:56Yes.
13:56So my husband and I have accounts on our phones.
13:59Uh-huh.
14:00And it wouldn't be uncommon for us to say, hey, let's say while we're watching a big game
14:05of rugby league, do you want to put a bet on first try scorer?
14:09And they're keen on that?
14:10They're happy to engage?
14:11Yeah, they'll do it.
14:11Of course.
14:12Because they think they're going to get the winnings.
14:13Alright.
14:13Do they get the winnings?
14:14Sure.
14:15Yep.
14:15I'm not a big gambler, but I can see that my son is somewhat interested in it.
14:20Oh, okay.
14:20He's going to be more clued in than me about gambling because I don't gamble.
14:25Right.
14:25Yeah.
14:26We're one of the first generations of parents that have gone through this with our children
14:30born with devices from go to woe.
14:32You've got your fingertips.
14:34You don't even need a TV.
14:35Okay.
14:37It's pretty hard for parents because there's alcohol, there's sex, there's drugs.
14:41Then here comes gambling as well.
14:43It's often well down the list for them.
14:45A lot of it comes down to having those conversations and education.
14:49If they want to gamble with them, that's up to the parents.
14:52What we do see time and time again in the research is that people who are exposed while
14:56underage are far more likely to have gambling problems down the track.
14:59And those problems can cause a lot of harm for people later in life.
15:02The reach is undeniable.
15:05Ads for online gambling are everywhere, but what's the secret of their appeal?
15:12Especially to young people.
15:15It wasn't always this way.
15:18Take this ad for Tats Lotto, which aired in 1970.
15:23Part art house film, part jewellery commercial.
15:26It's two minutes of middle-aged, middle-class, skivvy-wearing nonsense,
15:31which would have sent any teenager off to read a book.
15:37So what's changed?
15:39I've won!
15:41I've won!
15:47I've decided to take a leaf out of the Gruen playbook.
15:51Place your bets.
15:53And dissect some gambling ads with advertising person, Karen Ferry.
15:58And MemoBets.
15:59Who's been an executive creative director with some of Australia's top agencies.
16:04Black chair.
16:07I'm going to ask you to tell me about an ad that you think is very effective as an online
16:10gambling ad.
16:11Okay, so a pretty conventional kind of ad that works really well is, for example, the Labbrokes campaign.
16:18Here we go boys!
16:21And what happens in the ad is kind of this creation of this belief that this is what men want.
16:28What men think they want to have fun with their friends doing.
16:36The idea of friendship seems very important in this ad.
16:39It's really about no one wants to see a person gambling on their own.
16:43Not just because you don't want to be shamed by them.
16:46We know groups of men after a certain age, they don't know what to do when they meet up with
16:52their friends.
16:53Talking is hard and so giving them a new activity helps facilitate that sense of friendship
16:59that they might be struggling with if it's too awkward.
17:01But also the major apps now will allow you to, they call it like bet with mates,
17:06where you can connect with friends and play with each other essentially.
17:10And having that competitive banter with them is something that you feel proud enough
17:14to then do if you're out in public.
17:16What about another ad?
17:17Okay, so Picklebet are really interesting in that they don't follow any of the tropes
17:20of what we've seen from gambling ad advertising.
17:23They have made it much more artistic in a way, but also with a kind of aspirational style
17:29that you see from like fashion advertising or something like Apple.
17:32They're also trying to target an audience who probably would never see themselves as online bettors.
17:38So they're trying to convert new people.
17:41Women, there's women in this ad.
17:43People kind of dress grungy and fashionable.
17:47And still younger as well.
17:51Imagine what you could be buying instead.
17:53For free and confidential support, call the number on the screen or visit the website.
17:56And there's still the sort of tried and true online gambling ads.
18:01One really great example is Sportsbet, which is almost like anthemic.
18:04And the way it's shot borrows a lot from the long-running VB campaign of the 80s.
18:09A hard-earned first needs a big cold beer.
18:12There is an old sort of belief in alcohol advertising, especially beer,
18:15is that one man drinking by himself looks lonely, two guys look like they're on a date,
18:19three or more seems like they're friends.
18:21Here's to those who have a crack.
18:23So I think Sportsbet, so they're just trying to mimic those things to create a kind of adoption of an
18:30Australian brand,
18:30even though it's owned internationally.
18:32If you're an Aussie male and you value our sense of, like, what are our Australian ideals,
18:37then why aren't you doing this?
18:38Hang in there, mate.
18:39So, what can be done about online gambling?
18:44Well, you could, for instance, set up a national inquiry, hold extensive hearings into the topic,
18:48all culminating in a report complete with recommendations which you then present to Federal Parliament.
18:55Which is exactly what happened in 2023.
18:57We understand community concerns about the current volume of betting ads, particularly those that offer inducements.
19:03It's not just television advertising.
19:06Led by the late Labor MP Peter Murphy, the inquiry grilled big hitters from the gambling industry,
19:11major sport and the media.
19:13Alright.
19:13Australians are world record holders when it comes to gambling.
19:19We bet more than any other country in the world.
19:21We lose $25 billion per year on gambling in Australia.
19:28The Murphy report was handed down a few months before Peter's passing in December 2023.
19:35One of its key recommendations, that all gambling advertising be phased out over three years.
19:42I'm positive that we will see a very strong response from the government.
19:48A couple of years on, the Federal Government's response has been so much less than Peter Murphy hoped.
19:56Here it is, a singularly unimpressive place.
20:04They had this great opportunity to do something nice here and it's just like a Chinese restaurant.
20:12Not that there's anything wrong with a Chinese restaurant.
20:17Independent Senator and former Wallabies Captain David Pocock was one of Peter Murphy's staunchest allies.
20:24And is one of the government's loudest critics when it comes to gambling reform.
20:29Senator?
20:31Hey Sean.
20:33Welcome.
20:33Are we allowed to sit down and talk or shall we?
20:35Yeah, sure.
20:35Okay.
20:36Have a seat.
20:36Thank you very much.
20:38You're pushing what effectively was a Labor generated inquiry anyway, the Peter Murphy report.
20:43It is odd that nothing's happened in the two years.
20:45Do you find it odd?
20:47I think it's very rare in this place to have a parliamentary inquiry put forward.
20:53A report and recommendations where everyone signs on.
20:56And no one says, well actually, yeah I like most of them but this is bad or these are the
21:01additional things.
21:02Everyone said, this is a great piece of work.
21:04Let's do it.
21:05Two years later nothing.
21:06Why is that?
21:07I mean the support hasn't disappeared has it?
21:09No, it's there.
21:09I think we're seeing a Prime Minister who is, rather than listening to the late Peter Murphy, is listening to
21:15Peter Volandis.
21:16We did approach Peter Volandis for an interview but he didn't reply.
21:20As he runs both the NRL and race in New South Wales, he's obviously a very busy man.
21:24It's the gambling ads that are actually grooming the next generation of Australians to think that gambling is just a
21:32normal part of enjoying sport.
21:34It's what you do.
21:36Okay.
21:37Alright, I'll wait here and I'll have a chat to you when you get back.
21:42I won't look at anything.
21:45Senator Pocock did warn me that he might have to interrupt our chat to attend a press conference but he
21:50said we're welcome to hang in his office until he returns.
21:54It'd be wrong for me to go through his desk.
22:10Oh, David's shirts.
22:13And some soil stuff in there.
22:16I don't think we need to see that.
22:18Politicians are entitled to their private lives.
22:20How dare you?
22:25Disgusting.
22:26Listen to this.
22:27Our lips met in a frenzy of darting tongues.
22:32This is meeting Boutrous Boutrous Gali.
22:36The coalition should have won the 1990 election.
22:40The Australian economy was in recession.
22:45Unemployment was over 9%.
22:47And a big, big...
22:50Oh, hello.
22:51Oh.
22:52I assume you've read this.
22:54The... the bottom shelf is designed to confuse.
22:58Well, to confuse your enemies.
23:00Oh, just to confuse everyone who comes in here.
23:02So, am I right in saying you'd like to see no gambling advertising at all on any of the platforms,
23:07whether they be free to wear or whether it be...
23:09Yeah, not just me.
23:11Experts, advocates, people with lived experience.
23:13Some of the more recent research is showing that when young people are heading towards
23:18the end of high school, they already have a preferred gambling company.
23:23They have brand loyalty to a company.
23:25And they say, when I gamble, I'm going to gamble with that company.
23:29When it comes to gambling, we're the biggest losers in the world, and we have an industry
23:32that is just running riot with no checks and balances, having huge impacts on young people,
23:39hear the solutions, and then governments either go, yeah, no, we're not going to do that,
23:45or they come up with some half-baked thing that most Australians look at and go, well,
23:49it's not actually that great.
23:51It's probably not going to work.
23:5270, 80% of Australians agree with, just get it done.
24:01Hi.
24:02Well, the minister charged with the responsibility of enacting the recommendations in the Murphy
24:07report is Annika Wells.
24:09She is the Minister for Communications, and she is the Minister for Sport.
24:14As I'm at Parliament House, I thought I might be able to doorstop her for an interview.
24:18Hello.
24:19What?
24:19Just like a real hard-hitting journo would.
24:23It's not her.
24:25Just hang on.
24:26I know there's a good program on some other station, but...
24:29You haven't seen Annika Wells, have you?
24:32No.
24:32I think she might be hunkering down now.
24:35Really?
24:36Yeah, I don't blame her.
24:37Sorry.
24:38I feel I've let you down.
24:42Whether it was the fear of being interviewed by me, or the wave of public opinion, change
24:47was in the air.
24:48And on the 2nd of April this year, just 1,009 days after the Murphy report was handed down,
24:54the government delivered a surprise announcement.
24:57Between 6am and 8.30pm, we will cap the number of TV ads for betting agencies at a maximum
25:05of three per hour.
25:06We will ban all gambling ads on radio during school pick-up and drop-off.
25:12We'll end advertising on jerseys and jumpers and in stadiums.
25:17And we'll ban online advertising unless the user is verified as being over 18 and has the ability
25:25to opt out.
25:26Just as importantly, we will block illegal offshore gaming sites and ban online keynote-type
25:33products, the so-called pocket pokies, which represent a huge percentage of Australian
25:40gambling losses.
25:42Steps in the right direction, certainly.
25:45But as these reforms amount to barely half of just a handful of the Murphy report's 31
25:50recommendations, they are perhaps the most tentative of baby steps.
25:55To be clear, is the most significant reform on gambling that has ever been implemented?
26:01That may be true, but is the PM damning himself with faint praise?
26:07Is reducing the current rate of eight gambling ads children will see per hour on TV between
26:126am and 8.30pm, down to three, that significant a reform?
26:17What do you make of the Prime Minister's announcement today?
26:20A response that is not enough, but at least in the nation that has the greatest gambling
26:28harm in the world, at least we've had a response.
26:31Would we be happy if there were three cigarette ads an hour, another legal adult product, and
26:37said, oh well, job's done?
26:39One of the clearest findings of the Murphy report is that partial ad bans don't work.
26:44A ban is an absolute proposition.
26:47It's not capable of compromise.
26:49Politics, though, is, more often than not, about exactly that.
26:54Obviously, I have quite a lot of different parties in this space, all of whom have very
26:59firm and deeply held views.
27:01I have had to land in a middle.
27:03I have managed to land in a middle, and I do genuinely believe that we have struck a
27:08balance between Australians who see their right to like to have a punt, and Australians
27:13who want to make sure that kids are best possibly shielded from gambling advertising.
27:20Now, there's an interesting coda to the David Pocock story.
27:25While we were there, we filmed the senator partaking in a vigorous session of the Parliamentary
27:29Sports Club, where pollies of all stripes have a runaround before giving the rest of
27:34Australia the runaround.
27:37I'll let David take up the story.
27:40I was shocked to learn that the club takes money from big businesses in return for access
27:44to morning sports, and in turn, the politicians and their staff that participate.
27:50And this includes groups like Responsible Wagering Australia, who represent the big gambling
27:54companies here in Australia.
27:56After raising concerns about this privately, they've kicked me out of the club.
28:01They've told me that I can't be a member and am not welcome to attend fixtures operated
28:06by the club.
28:08The Prime Minister said the ban should be lifted.
28:10But the senator has declared he won't play while the gambling industry sponsors the sporting
28:15club.
28:17Which is a shame, because, as I'm sure you'll agree, he's really let himself go since he
28:21retired from rugby and needs all the exercise he can get.
28:23I mean, look at those legs.
28:25They're so skinny.
28:28If Senator Pocock is right, and the majority of Australians support reform, why is so little
28:33happening?
28:34You'd think politicians would be falling over themselves to bend to the will of the people.
28:38It's a question I may well ask myself.
28:41Well, the problem is that rootin branch of all evil, money.
28:45Because we lose so much, the gambling industry has lots of it spent on advertising, which
28:50the media companies like because it makes them money.
28:53The media companies then use that money to pay for the rights to show the sport that people
28:57then bet on to make more money for the gambling industry, who use some of that money to sponsor
29:01the sports clubs themselves, or give them a cut of the action.
29:04The AFL and the NRL net millions each year in a deal which sees them receive a percentage
29:09of every bet placed.
29:11Plus, there's on-ground advertising.
29:13This vicious circle runs rings around the federal and state governments.
29:17In fact, they're a part of it.
29:18The more we bet, the more we lose, the more the gambling industry makes money, and the
29:23more the government receives in tax revenue.
29:25And donations.
29:26Up 600% in the last decade.
29:29Thus, the vicious circle is squared.
29:39Of course, it's very easy to cast companies who make millions from the misfortune of others
29:43as the villains of the piece.
29:47But we shouldn't be cynical.
29:51Kai Cantwell is the CEO of RWA, or Responsible Wagering Australia.
29:56Right, you ready for a withering cross-examination?
29:59Absolutely.
30:00Okay.
30:01RWA is the peak industry body representing a clutch of online bookmakers.
30:06Yes.
30:07We're a membership organisation, represents 60% of the online wagering market.
30:12We're really there to join the dots between the wagering industry, the government, and the
30:19community and the punters, the people who use our services.
30:21The RWA is also required to help protect punters from themselves.
30:26All online bookmakers are bound by the National Consumer Protection Framework and federal law.
30:32They must offer deposit limits, refuse credit card payments, and ensure new customers haven't
30:39self-excluded.
30:41We have invested significantly in consumer protection tools.
30:45In the online space, you are logged in, age verified, and identity verified.
30:51And that means that we have an understanding of who we're dealing with and what their behaviours
30:56are like and what their patterns of gambling are like.
30:58And we can intervene in real time or in some instances ahead of real time.
31:02How does that intervention manifest?
31:04Basically on an escalating scale.
31:06So the algorithm might kick in at the lower levels of, you know, potential risk.
31:11And so it might just pop up on the screen saying, are you sure you want to place this bet?
31:14So if things start to get more erratic or, you know, the time of day, the betting escalates
31:21or the amounts escalate to a more extreme point, then you'll have a real human intervening.
31:26Are there counsellors available? Is that something you provide?
31:28So we have safer gambling specialists we have to have as a part of our licensing arrangements.
31:33When it comes to the Murphy Report's recommendation that all gambling advertising be banned,
31:39Kai Cantwell is hedging his bets.
31:41We think the volume of advertising over the past few years has been broadly out of step
31:46with community expectations.
31:48What we've been supportive of is volume and frequency caps on free-to-air television.
31:53So it might be three ads per hour.
31:54In addition to the regulations that already exist around live sport and other things.
31:58What about the branding within the game?
32:00Yeah, look, I think that's a difficult one because it's also not entirely within the federal government's remit.
32:05No, but if we have our imagined state uniformity in a perfect world...
32:11I think it's also challenging in that we need to understand the impacts of advertising spent as well.
32:18..and so there is impact on broadcasters themselves.
32:21And it is important to sports to continue to operate, continue to keep ticket prices down,
32:25which is important to families in particular taking kids to the game.
32:29Five decades ago, the tobacco industry said the same thing.
32:33G'day, all I've got here is a new brand of cigarettes, Winfield.
32:38Then the bands kicked in...
32:40Anyhow, have a Winfield.
32:42..and Winnie Blues disappeared from our broadcasts.
32:45You're so glad you're there!
32:47Those in the lung cancer business decided to sponsor sport instead.
32:51Winfield Cup.
32:52Now the big game is even bigger.
32:56But in time, their logos were stripped from our stadiums,
33:00which sounded the death knell for sport.
33:05Or so we were told.
33:07As it turned out, sport didn't kick the bucket.
33:10Marketers did what marketers always do.
33:12They found new sponsors.
33:13Premier, if I'm wrong, RWA's first executive director was Stephen Conroy.
33:18Yes.
33:19Former Labor Minister for Communications.
33:21Yep, correct.
33:21Most recent one before you was Justin Madden.
33:24Yes.
33:24Former Labor state politician.
33:27Yes.
33:27And minister.
33:28Yes, you've done your research.
33:29I have done my research.
33:30I've been very good on this.
33:31It's like a real interview.
33:33And you yourself, you worked in politics.
33:35You were chief of staff to Anne Ruston,
33:38the former social services minister in the Morrison government.
33:42Yes, I was.
33:42Would it be fair to say that RWA is a lobby group?
33:45Look, I think we're more than a lobby group.
33:46We're absolutely engaged politically.
33:49We've been working over the last two and a half years
33:52on potential improvements to policy.
33:54And that is not to push back against regulation,
33:57which is often a sort of misconception,
33:59but often to improve regulation
34:02and in some instances increase regulation
34:04to ensure we're sort of aiming for consistency across the country.
34:08So where to now?
34:09I mean, I'm assuming that at some point
34:11the Labor government will be under such pressure
34:13they'll have to do something with that Murphy report
34:15because it would be a complete waste of money and time
34:18to have done it in the first place if nothing happens.
34:20We need to understand that 75% of the gambling
34:23and therefore the majority of gambling harm
34:25happens outside of the online world at the moment.
34:28We have an environment that has really strong consumer protections,
34:31but regulation that goes too far,
34:35blanket bans on advertising,
34:37will drive the consumers,
34:39the 25% growing in the online space,
34:42more and more into those illegal offshore sites
34:45where none of those protections exist.
34:48So Responsible Wagering Australia
34:50is not a fan of a blanket ban
34:53or doing anything it doesn't have to.
34:55And in many ways,
34:57banning TV advertising
34:58is a bit like shutting the stable door
35:00after the horse has bolted
35:01and placed third at Moonee Valley.
35:06Because over on social media,
35:08it's virtually a free-for-all.
35:10Yeah, I've got two papers.
35:11While there are stiff penalties
35:12for promoting illegal gambling products
35:14like online casinos
35:15and online slot machines,
35:18there's currently nothing to stop people
35:20posting themselves playing the pokies.
35:22All right, ladies and gentlemen, we've got two on.
35:24Boom, dude.
35:25Influencers like Luca Cante are on a winner.
35:29There's people that gamble way more than me on Instagram,
35:31but they don't have many followers of me.
35:32Because these people are late.
35:35Luca did that.
35:36I can do that.
35:36I can go down to the pub and do the exact same.
35:38Is everyone in?
35:39I don't want to miss anyone out.
35:41All right, ready?
35:42Three, two, one.
35:43Come on, guys!
35:45It's easy to see why young men
35:47would be attracted to this sort of content.
35:49Yeah, good on you, lad.
35:50But experts warn that Luca's brand
35:52of devil-may-care betting
35:54could be putting his legion of young followers at risk.
35:58Could it be fair to say that posting your stories,
36:01there is a certain group of your followers
36:03who would emulate what you're doing?
36:05People think I'm promoting gambling.
36:07It's out there.
36:08My thing is, like, you get a cigarette packet, right?
36:10You've got a bloke dying on the front of the packet.
36:12The smokers are still going to smoke the cigarette.
36:14It's like you walk into the pokies.
36:16Stop gambling here.
36:17Help.
36:17Gambling help there.
36:18I'm still going to play the pokies.
36:19Would you ever address that, though?
36:21As Luca, would Luca ever say,
36:23maybe this is a good idea, this is a bad idea?
36:25Or don't you see that as your position?
36:27I don't.
36:27Back in the day,
36:28I literally did a gambling ad helpline thing at the end.
36:32A disclaimer at the end?
36:33A disclaimer, that's the word.
36:34A disclaimer.
36:34I did that for many months,
36:36and then one day I was like,
36:37the government are getting millions of dollars
36:39off the pokies, right?
36:41They love it.
36:42They love the pokies.
36:43Pubs, clubs love the pokies.
36:46I'm thinking, who am I?
36:47Do I work for the government?
36:48Like, at the end of the day,
36:49you guys are adults.
36:52Luca's social media isn't all devoted to gambling.
36:56Among the travelling, other hijinks,
36:59something called flexing,
37:03one of his posts stands in stark contrast.
37:06In Australia, nine people take their life every single day,
37:10and three out of four are met.
37:11I did a little series where,
37:13when I reached a certain amount of followers,
37:15which was $250,000,
37:16I'd donate $10,000 to men's mental health.
37:19Very proud to present Livin' with a $10,000 check.
37:22Thank you, Kaz.
37:22The idea was motivated by the suicide of one of his followers.
37:26It's almost ironic as well,
37:28a lot of people would say.
37:30Given the nature of...
37:32Of gambling.
37:32Yes.
37:33I did wonder about that.
37:34I wondered whether it was linked in some way,
37:35whether you were assuaging some guilt or...
37:39The biggest criticism I got was,
37:41you say men's mental health,
37:42but gambling causes it.
37:44I go, yeah, but this is what I've signed up for.
37:46This is what I do.
37:47If I then do use a platform to do something good as well.
37:51Today, whatever I win on the pokies,
37:52I give to the homers.
37:53You are hungry?
37:54Here you are.
37:54Here's $100, brother.
37:55I want to help you out a bit.
37:57Can I give you $100?
38:00Luka is obviously a smart...
38:02I just graduated uni with a bachelor
38:03and being a legend.
38:04Time's in the casino, lads.
38:06Come on.
38:06...and savvy online operator
38:08making the most of his Insta fame.
38:10Bula!
38:12How long that fame will last is anyone's guess.
38:16Let's say that Instagram suddenly says
38:18you can't refer to gambling anymore.
38:20Would you be happy if that happened?
38:22Would you think,
38:22oh, great, I don't have to do this pokies anymore,
38:25or I could do other stuff?
38:26It's funny, kind of.
38:28It's one of those.
38:29Kept going, brilliant.
38:30I'll ride the wave, keep going.
38:31If it doesn't, brilliant.
38:32I'm confident with my abilities
38:34to come up with content
38:35in whatever way it is.
38:37But, yeah.
38:39We'll see.
38:40We'll see.
38:40Hopefully not too soon.
38:46As we've already seen this series,
38:49gamblers can lose a lot more than money.
38:52When betting becomes an addiction,
38:55physical and mental health suffers.
39:00No more bets.
39:02OK.
39:02Professor Charles Livingstone,
39:03one of Australia's leading researchers
39:05into gambling policy...
39:06Hit me.
39:07..thinks it's time gambling was treated
39:09not as entertainment...
39:11I'm going to sit.
39:12..but as a disease.
39:1421.
39:15Oh, you see?
39:17The house always wins.
39:19Why do you think it is a public health issue?
39:21Well, it's what we call a dangerous commodity,
39:25a harmful commodity.
39:26It's a product which,
39:27even though lawful,
39:28can cause serious harm to people.
39:31A serious gambling habit
39:32can basically destroy your life.
39:35And I think most of us would want to see
39:37the health minister take responsibility
39:39for the regulation of gambling.
39:42That's the case in New Zealand, for example.
39:44Is it often the mantra of...
39:45..of that it's a personal responsibility,
39:48it's an individual's responsibility,
39:50and we shouldn't be interfering?
39:52What do you think about that?
39:53Well, the good thing about responsible wagering,
39:55if you happen to be a gambling operator,
39:57is that it has a tendency to imply
39:59that people who can't control their gambling
40:02are irresponsible.
40:03But, in fact,
40:04it's not about individuals who are weak-willed,
40:06it's about products that are extremely addictive.
40:09Responsible gambling, as a mantra,
40:11came around at the turn of the century,
40:13when the industry started to realise
40:15that its impacts on populations
40:18were becoming known
40:19and people were becoming concerned.
40:21Around the world,
40:22it was seen as a brave initiative
40:24to help us address this...
40:26Really? Yes.
40:27I'm surprised.
40:27Am I being cynical to think
40:28that was just obviously disingenuous?
40:30No, I don't think you're being cynical.
40:32I mean, I think I always thought
40:33it was pretty disingenuous myself.
40:35Well, unless and until this is put in the hands
40:37of the Minister for Health,
40:39do you think the Murphy Report's going to be taken seriously?
40:43The Prime Minister clearly doesn't want to interfere
40:46with existing arrangements as far as possible,
40:49love of sports and so on.
40:50I think it's also partly because
40:54these people are major donors
40:56to political parties.
40:58They provided all sorts of jobs
41:00for retired politicians
41:02for many years now.
41:04There are probably more people
41:06with Parliament House passes
41:07representing the gambling industry
41:10than any other single industry.
41:17When all is said and done,
41:18maybe the deck is stacked
41:20against meaningful gambling reform.
41:24It would mean a massive upheaval.
41:27But perhaps the only way forward
41:29is for the government
41:30to phase out advertising
41:31and fund sport itself
41:33until other sponsors are in place.
41:38While we wait for a change nationally,
41:40there are some at a local level
41:42who prove it is possible
41:43to wean yourself off gambling's ample breast
41:47and still turn a profit.
41:50On a Saturday afternoon,
41:53Petersham Bowling Club
41:54in Sydney's Inner West
41:55is a hive of activity.
41:57People are playing social bowls.
42:01A one-year-old's having a birthday party.
42:04A local author is launching her latest book.
42:0920 years ago,
42:10this club was entering
42:11the last stages of rigor mortis.
42:13Embership had stagnated.
42:15Developers were circling.
42:18Then, George Katzi stepped in.
42:22How many years ago
42:23did you become president?
42:23I became president in 2006.
42:27So, we're up to around 19th year.
42:32I became involved
42:33because the old guard,
42:34the bowlers,
42:35were lost for ideas
42:36on how to kind of rejuvenate the club.
42:40What was the problem?
42:42Basically, ageing demographic.
42:44They couldn't bring new people in.
42:46And we had to build it up
42:47from really low income,
42:49like no turnover,
42:51very low,
42:52and just get people
42:53through the door.
42:55The question was
42:56how to do that.
42:58Back then,
42:59a bar and eight
43:00out-of-date poker machines
43:02were all the club had to offer
43:03in the way of entertainment.
43:07We contacted
43:08Clubs New South Wales,
43:09the Peak Body.
43:10Their advice was
43:11you need to spend
43:12about $20,000
43:13to upgrade the machines.
43:15And then that way,
43:16when you make money
43:17on the poker machines,
43:18you can then subsidise
43:19the food and drink.
43:20We went,
43:20so you want us to exploit
43:22some members of our community
43:23so that other members
43:25of the community
43:25can get us subsidised
43:26food and drink, right?
43:28And we just went,
43:29oh, that's just revolting.
43:33Instead,
43:34the club took a punt
43:35and scrapped
43:36all poker machines.
43:38A bold move
43:39when so many clubs
43:40claim they need
43:41gambling money
43:41to survive.
43:45Almost immediately,
43:47George's gamble
43:48started to pay off.
43:51But people started
43:52to come.
43:54People saw it as a virtue,
43:55the fact that there
43:56were no poker machines here.
43:57Some people saw it
43:58as a safe space.
43:59Okay.
44:00So those who had
44:01a history with addiction
44:02and clubs,
44:03they thought we could
44:03come here and it's safe.
44:04People with young families
44:05said we want to bring them here,
44:06we don't want them
44:07to see the poker machines.
44:10In an age
44:11where so many venues
44:12are ditching live entertainment
44:13in favour of poker machines,
44:15Peter Shambolo
44:16has gone in the other direction,
44:18where once poker machines
44:20chirped and jangled,
44:22there's now a stage
44:23where musicians
44:24chirp and jangle instead.
44:26Look, we didn't know
44:27we were making
44:28a political statement,
44:29we were just making
44:29what I see
44:30as a business decision.
44:31I call it an engagement model
44:32over an exploitation model.
44:35There's the music community,
44:37there's the poetry community,
44:39there's the authors' community,
44:41there's the young families' community,
44:43just people socialising.
44:44And what I love is
44:45is that they all are operating
44:47on the same day
44:47so it's kind of a microcosm
44:49what I think is
44:49of a civil society.
44:51That is our model.
44:52Your membership has increased
44:53how many fold?
44:55We're up to about
44:56900% increase on membership.
44:58We've increased turnover
44:59by 1,170%.
45:02Welcome to the
45:03Peach and Bowling Club
45:04and we're now become
45:06the exemplar
45:07for poker-free existence.
45:09Not just surviving,
45:10but we're thriving.
45:13Do you think it's a good idea
45:14for, say, state government
45:16or even local government
45:16to support clubs
45:18in their quest
45:19not to have pokie machines?
45:20In other words,
45:21that there be some sort of tax advantage
45:22or that there be
45:23some sort of encouragement.
45:24There's huge, huge opportunity there
45:26for federal
45:27and state governments
45:29to take that on.
45:29Those clubs that don't want
45:31to get rid of pokies,
45:31I actually think it's lazy.
45:33Pokies are lazy, lazy income.
45:35You've got to help them
45:36transition off
45:37to reduce the amount,
45:38the percentage of the income
45:39of the club,
45:40reduce it, reduce it, reduce it,
45:41to the point where
45:43they're no longer significant.
45:44So it's all about power and control.
45:46So you'll be good at this.
45:47All right.
45:48Yeah.
45:50So did you look
45:52where your bias was?
45:53Well, no,
45:54I have an unconscious bias.
45:56It's not a bad ball
45:57for their game.
45:58I could pretend
45:59I won that one.
46:00So there we go.
46:00So that's it.
46:01Yeah, that's pretty good.
46:03This pokies-free place
46:05is proof,
46:05if proof were needed,
46:07that there's a growing appetite
46:08for change.
46:10Oh, that's much better
46:11than they usually do.
46:16Australia's relationship
46:17with gambling is,
46:18it must be said,
46:19in need of some couples therapy.
46:21The evolution of the beast.
46:23Yes.
46:25And while it's a relief
46:27to learn there are
46:27fewer of us gambling...
46:28Oh, don't take a look.
46:29Second is all right.
46:31And I've seen the social benefits
46:33that can come
46:33with the odd flutter.
46:35If you become a poker player,
46:37don't blame me.
46:39I've also seen
46:40the terrible price
46:41extracted from those
46:43for whom gambling
46:43is no longer
46:44just a bit of fun.
46:46I'd be gambling
46:47in the toilet.
46:47I'd be gambling
46:48when I check my messages
46:49at night time.
46:50It just did not stop.
46:52And the enormous struggle
46:53they face,
46:54putting their lives
46:55back together again.
46:56What have I done?
46:58How have I done this again?
46:59And while some
47:00wage a fierce campaign
47:02to make sure
47:02the next generation
47:03can start their adult lives
47:05without a roll
47:05of the loaded dice,
47:07we've got to stop
47:08normalising gambling
47:09in this country.
47:11I wonder if it's possible
47:13to untangle
47:14the Gordian knot
47:15binding our politicians,
47:17media and sport
47:18to the gambling industry.
47:22I'm not a betting man,
47:23but I'd say
47:24it's a long shot.
47:30I guess one of the big differences
47:32between having a punt
47:33in the old days
47:34and having a punt now
47:35is that more often than not
47:36now we do it on a device
47:39or machine
47:39and whoever's
47:41on the other end
47:41of the wager
47:42doesn't have an opportunity
47:43to assess our vulnerability.
47:45And this tends to work
47:46in favour
47:47of the gambling companies,
47:48especially when they start
47:50giving us the VIP treatment.
47:52Now, we're all vulnerable
47:54at some point
47:55in our lives
47:56and the deal is
47:57is that when somebody
47:58stumbles and falls
47:59you don't rush over
48:00and rifle through their pockets.
48:02You try and help them up
48:03if you can
48:04or you catch them
48:06before they fall
48:08or you warn them
48:09they're about to
48:09trip over something
48:11or you'll get together
48:12and remove that something
48:14because we all know
48:15that at some point
48:15somebody's going to trip over it.
48:16That's the deal
48:18when you live together
48:19in a community
48:19with other human beings.
48:22For me
48:25life's a lottery anyway
48:28and I just don't see
48:29any point
48:29in trying to turn it
48:30into a series of multis.
48:34That's good
48:35we should put that
48:35on a t-shirt
48:36and sell it.
48:38Only there were
48:38still ABC shops.
48:41Anyway
48:42I'm ruining the moment
48:43aren't I?
48:58Imagine what you could be
48:59buying instead.
49:01For free and confidential support
49:03call the number
49:03on the screen
49:04or visit the website.
49:05click on the next
49:05side.
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