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The Madhya Pradesh High Court's Indore bench has declared the Bhojshala complex in Dhar district a temple, quashing a 2003 Archaeological Survey of India order that allowed Friday Namaz at the site.
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00:01Good evening, you're watching India First. I'm Gaurav Sawant. It's a historic verdict by the Indoor Bench of the Madhya
00:08Pradesh High Court on the Bhojshala Complex.
00:12The court, after producing documents going through the Archaeological Survey of India report, has categorically declared the Bhojshala Complex a
00:23temple.
00:24And this is a division bench of the High Court. The court has also cancelled the Archaeological Survey of India
00:33order that permitted Muslims to offer namaz at the Bhojshala Temple Complex on Fridays.
00:40The division bench, a two-judge bench of the Madhya Pradesh High Court, the Indoor Bench, declared that the Bhojshala
00:47Complex is a temple, whether it's on a Tuesday or a Friday.
00:52It quashed the ASI circular that permitted Muslims to offer namaz there on select days.
00:59A division bench also said that the Muslim side is free to approach the Supreme Court and seek separate allotment
01:06of land for a mosque to be built in the same Dhar district, but not the same place.
01:13The court said, and I quote,
01:15We have found that nothing ever interrupted the continuity of Hindu worship at this site.
01:21We record this conclusion that historical literature and records established that the character of the disputed area was that of
01:30a Bhojshala, a centre of Sanskrit learning associated with Raja Bhoj of the Paramar dynasty.
01:40Unquote.
01:41Regarding the demand of the Hindu side for the repatriation of the idol of Ma Saraswati, of Vaag Devi, that's
01:50currently at a London museum in the United Kingdom,
01:54the court directed the government to consider this request, also noted that the Muslim side is free to present its
02:01views before the government as well.
02:03Not just courts, but the government as well.
02:06Vaakar Sadiq, the Sheher Khazi or the head cleric of Dhar city said, they will study the judgment and challenge
02:13it in a superior court.
02:15The Archaeological Survey of India and its report filed on the 15th of July, 2024.
02:20In the chapter titled, Brief Findings of the Survey said, citing scientific examination of the archaeological remains that the retrieved
02:31architectural remains, sculptural fragments, large slabs of inscriptions with literary texts.
02:40Inscriptions on pillars suggest that a large structure associated with the literary and educational activities existed at the site.
02:53The Hindus said that the Bhotshala complex is a temple dedicated to Goddess Vaag Devi, Ma Saraswati, the Goddess of
03:04Knowledge.
03:05The Muslim side had contended that it is the site of the Kamal Mola Mosque.
03:11Now, according to an arrangement in 2003, the Hindus were permitted to perform puja at the complex on Tuesdays from
03:18sunrise to sunset, while Muslims were free to offer namaz on Fridays from 1pm to 3pm.
03:26The High Court said the Muslim community may approach the Madhya Pradesh government for allotment of separate land within the
03:33Dhar district for construction of a mosque or prayer facility.
03:37The bench said, this could be considered in order to secure the religious rights of the Muslim community and ensure
03:44complete justice between the parties.
03:47It added that such allotment, if sought through a proper application, should be made according to law and could include
03:55land for associated religious facilities and also for the administration of the said place.
04:03This scientific survey report and ASI report, the High Court, which had ordered the ASI to conduct a scientific survey
04:12at the Bhotshala temple complex on the 11th of March, 2024.
04:18The ASI began the survey on the 22nd of March, 2024.
04:21And after a detailed 98-day-long exercise, submitted its report to the High Court on the 15th of July.
04:29And this is a report that's over 2,000 pages.
04:32The ASI indicated that massive structures dating back to the reign of the Parmar kings of Dhar,
04:38they predated the mosque and that the current disputed structure was built using repurposed temple components.
04:49Now, a lot of reactions that are coming in on this.
04:52Let me quickly get you the reaction of Vakhar, Sadiq on Bhotshala.
04:56Let me get you other reactions, both of the Muslim side, the Hindu side, and on the next course of
05:02action.
05:02What's the plan of action? Listen in.
05:06High Court рдХреЗ рдлреЗрд╕рд▓реЗ рдХреА рд╕рдорд┐рдХреНрд╖рд╛ рдХрд░реЗрдВрдЧреЗ, рд╣рдорд╛рд░реЗ рдЦрд┐рд▓рд╛рдм рдЬреЛ рдлреЗрд╕рд▓рд╛ рд╣реБрдЖ, рдЖрд░реНрдЧреЛрдореЗрдВрдЯ рдХреА рдЦрд┐рд▓рд╛рдм рддреЛ рдпрдХрд┐рдирди рд╣рдо рд▓реЛрдЧ рд╕реБрдкреНрд░рд┐рдо
05:11рдХреЛрдб рдЬрд╛рдПрдВрдЧреЗ.
05:12рд╕реБрдкреНрд░рд┐рдо рдХреЛрдб рдореЗрдВ рдкреНрд░рдердо рд╡рдХреНрдд рдореЗрдВ рд╣реА рдЬрд╛рдХреЗ рд╕реБрдкреНрд░рд┐рдо рдХреЛрдб рдЬрд╛рдПрдВрдЧреЗ, рдФрд░ рдореБрдЭрдХреЛ рд▓рдЧрддрд╛ рд╣реИ рдХрд┐ рд╕рд╛рд░реЗ рдЖрд░реНрдЧреЛрдореЗрдВрдЯ рдХреЗ рдмрд╛рдж
05:18рд╣рдо рдирд┐рдпрд╛рд▓реЗ рдХрд╛ рд╕рдореНрдорд╛рди рдХрд░рддреЗ рд╣реИрдВ, рд▓реЗрдХрд┐рди рдпрд╣ рдЬреЛ рдлреЗрд╕рд▓рд╛ рдЖрдпрд╛ рд╣реИ, рдЗрд╕рдХреЗ рдЦрд┐рд▓рд╛рдм рд╣рдо рд╕реБрдкреНрд░рд┐рдо рдХреЛрдб рдореЗрдВ рдЕрдлрд┐рд▓ рдХрд░реЗрдВ.
05:22рдпрд╣ рдирд┐рдпрд╛рд▓реАрди рд▓рдбрд╝рдИ 2022 рдореЗрдВ рд╣рд┐рдВрджреВ рдкреНрд░рдгрдкреЛрд░ рдЬрд╕реНрдЯрд┐рд╕ рдХреЗ рд╣рд░реАрд╢рдВрдХрд░ рдЬреА, рдЬреЗрди, рд╡рд┐рд╢реНрдиреБ рдЬреА, рдЬреЗрди, рд░рдЬрдирд╛ рдЕрдЧрдиреА рдУрддрд░реА рдЬреА рдФрд░
05:29рд░рднреАрдиреЗ рдЬреЛрд╢реА рдЬреА рдХреЗ рд╕рд╛рде рдЪрд╛рд▓реВ рд╣реБрдИ рдереА, рдЬрд┐рд╕рдХреЗ рдЕрдВрджрд░ рдмрд╛рдж рдореЗрдВ A.S.I. рдиреЗ рд╡рд╛рдХрд╛ рдмреЛрд╢реНрдЪрд╛рд▓рд╛ рдХрд╛ рд╕рд░реНрд╡реЗрдХреНрд╖рди
05:35рдХрд░рд╛, рд░рд┐рдкреЛрд░реНрдЯ рдкреЗя┐╜
05:48рд▓рд┐рдХрд╛ рдореЗрдВ рд╣реИ, рдФрд░ рд╕рд╛рде рд╣реА рдЬреЛ рд╣реИ, рдЬреЛ рдорд╛рдирдиреА рдирдпрд╛рд▓рд╛рдИ рдиреЗ рдЬреЛ рдирд┐рд░реНрдирд╛рдИ рджрд┐рдпрд╛ рд╣реИ, рд╡реЛ рдХрд╣реА рдирдЧрдИ рдкреВрд░реЗ
05:56рд╣рд┐рдВрджреВ рд╕рдорд╛рдЬ рдХреЗ рдЖрд╢рд╛ рдФрд░ рдЕрдкреЗрдХреНрд╖рд╛ рдХреЗ рдЕрдиреБрд░реВрдк рджрд┐рдпрд╛ рд╣реИ, рдЕрднреА рдЬреЛ рд▓реЛрдЧ рдЗрд╕рдХреЛ рдЕрдкрдиреА рдЬреАрдд рдорд╛рдирдиреЗ рд╣реИрдВ, рдЬреАрдд рдирд╣реАрдВ
06:04рдорд╛рдирдирд╛ рдЪрд╛рд╣рд┐рдП, рдареАрдХ рд╣реИ, рдирд┐рдЪрд▓реЗ рдЕрджрд╛рдирдд рдХрд╛ рдлреИрд╕
06:17рдирд╣реАрдВ рд╣реИ, рдЬреИрд╕реЗ рд╣рдордиреЗ рдмрд╛рдмрд░реА рдорд╕реНрдЬрд┐рдж рдХреА рд▓рдбрд╝рд╛рдИ рдХреЛ рд▓рдбрд╝рд╛ рд╣реИ, рдЦреБрд▓реВрд╕ рдХреЗ рд╕рд╛рде, рдЗрдорд╛рдирджрд╛рд░реА рдХреЗ рд╕рд╛рде, рдкреНрд░реЗрдо рдХреЗ рд╕рд╛рде,
06:24рд╣рдо рдЗрд╕реА рддрд░рд╣ рдпреЗ рд▓рдбрд╝рд╛рдИ рднреА рд▓рдбрд╝рдирд╛ рдЪрд╛рд╣рддреЗ рд╣реИрдВ, рдЕрдЧрд░ рдХреЛрдЯ рдХреА рд╣рдорд╛рд░реЗ рджреЗрд╢ рдХреА рдЕрджрд╛рд▓рдд, рдпреЗ рдХрд╣ рджреЗрддреА рд╣реИ
06:32рдХрд┐ рддреБрдореНрд╣рд╛рд░рд╛ рдЕрдзрд┐рдХрд╛рд░ рдпрд╣рд╛рдВ рднреА рдирд╣реАрдВ рд╣реИ
06:33рддреЛ рд╣рдо рдЙрд╕рдХреЛ рднреА рдорд╛рдиреЗрдВрдЧреЗ, рдХреНрдпреЛрдВрдХрд┐ рдЗрд╕рдХреЗ рд▓рд╛рд╡рд╛ рд╣рдорд╛рд░реЗ рдкрд╛рд╕ рдХреЛ рдЕрд▓реНрдЯрд░рдиреЗрдЯ рд╣реИ рднреА рдирд╣реАрдВ, рддреЛ рд░рд╛рд╕реНрддрд╛ рднреА рдирд╣реАрдВ рд╣реИ
07:03рдЗрд╕ рдерд╛рдкрд┐рдд рд╕рд░рд╕реНрд╡рддреА рдХрд╛ рдпреЗ рд╕реНрдерд╛рди, рдЬрд┐рд╕реЗ рдХрд╛рд▓рд╛рдВрддрд░ рдореЗрдВ, рдЬреЛ рдкреВрд░реЗ рднрд╛рд░рдд рд╡рд░реНрд╖ рдореЗрдВ рд╣реЛрддрд╛ рд╣реИ, рдореБрд╕реНрд▓рд┐рдо рдЖрддреНрддрд╛рдИрдпреЛрдВ рдиреЗ рдЕрдкрдирд╛
07:15рд╕реНрдерд╛рди рдмрдирд╛ рд▓рд┐рдпрд╛
07:17рдпреЗ рд╕рдмрд╕реЗ рдкрд╣рд▓реЗ рддреЛ рд╕реНрд╡рд╛рдЧрддрд┐рдпреЛрдВ рдХреА рдлреИрд╕рд▓рд╛ рд╣реИ, рдЗрд╕рдореЗрдВ рдЬреЛ рд▓реЛрдЧ рд▓рдЧреЗ рд╣реИрдВ рд╕рдм рд╕рд╛рдзреБрдмрд╛рдд рдХреЗ рдкрд╛рддреНрд░ рд╣реИрдВ
07:22рд▓рдВрдмреЗ рд╕рдордп рддрдХ рдзрд╛рд░ рдФрд░ рдЙрд╕рдХреЗ рдЖрд╕рдкрд╛рд╕ рдХреЗ рд╕рдирд╛рддрдирд┐рдпреЛрдВ рдиреЗ рд╕рдВрдЧрд░реНрд╕ рдХрд┐рдпрд╛, рдЗрд╕рдХреЗ рдмрд╛рдж рдЖрдЬ рдиреНрдпрд╛рд▓реЗ рдХреЗ рджреНрд╡рд╛рд░рд╛ рдЙрдирдХреЛ рдЬреАрдд
07:30рд╣рд╛рд╕рд┐рд▓ рд╣реБрдИ рд╣реИ
07:31рдпреЗ рдХреИрд╕реА рдмрд┐рдЯрдордирд╛ рд╣реИрдВ рдХрд┐ рдЬреЛ рджреБрдирд┐рдпрд╛ рдХреЛ рдиреНрдпрд╛рдпрдХ рджреЗрддрд╛ рдерд╛, рдЙрд╕ рдкрд░рдорд╛рддреНрдорд╛ рдХреЛ рднреА рдЖрдЬ рдиреНрдпрд╛рд▓реЗ рдХреЗ рд╕рд░рдг рдЬрд╛рдирд╛
07:37рдкрдбрд╝рддрд╛ рд╣реИ
07:38рдкрд░ рдлрд┐рд░ рднреА рдиреНрдпрд╛рд▓реЗ рдХреЗ рдкреНрд░рддреА рдЬреЛ рд╣рдорд╛рд░реА рдЙрджрд╛рд░рддрд╛ рд╣реИ, рдиреНрдпрд╛рд▓реЗ рдХреЗ рдкреНрд░рддреА рдЬреЛ рд╣рдорд╛рд░рд╛ рджрд┐рдбрд╝ рд╡рд┐рд╢реНрд╡рд╛рд╕ рд╣реИ рдХрд┐ рд╕рдд
07:44рдЬреАрддреЗрдЧрд╛, рд╕рдд рдкрд░рд╛рдЬрд┐рдд рдирд╣реАрдВ рд╣реЛ рд╕рдХрддрд╛
08:08AIMIM Chief and Member of Parliament Barrister Asaduddin Novesi cries foul over this Bhotshala verdict.
08:16Asaduddin Novesi, who is a barrister at law, he says that setting aside facts, the judgment was given on belief.
08:26Asaduddin Novesi insists that for the past 700 years, namaz was being offered at the masjid.
08:35This verdict, according to Asaduddin Novesi, is a violation of the Places of Worship Act 1991.
08:42And he believes that the judgment is erroneous.
08:45And he hopes that when this matter is taken up in the Supreme Court, they will get justice on this.
08:53I'll get you more on the story, but let's listen in to Asaduddin Novesi.
09:24Now the relief is identical, completely the relief is identical, that there will be a prayer, there will be a
09:33prayer, there will not be a prayer.
09:34I'm reading there for 700 years, there will be a prayer, there will be a prayer in the 226, and
09:41the court cannot pass an order on declaration of possession or title,
09:46you give them a title when the civil suit is running.
09:50And joining me now on this big story is the man of the moment, advocate Vishnu Shankar Jain, lawyer of
09:57the petitioner, someone who's campaigned very hard.
10:00He got facts together and then approached courts.
10:04Mr. Vishnu Shankar Jain, welcome.
10:07What points did you rely on to decisively put to rest this controversy, whether this was Maa Saraswati's temple or
10:15a Kalaam Maula mosque?
10:18Because Asaduddin Novesi, and you just heard him, he seems to indicate that this is bad in law and is
10:25a judgment that's been given on faith and belief and not on facts on ground.
10:31Or words to that effect.
10:34See, first we have to understand that before the Honorable High Court, indoor bench of the Madhya Pradesh High Court,
10:41the order passed by the ASI on 7th of April 2003 was under challenge,
10:46wherein the ASI had directed the Hindu side to worship on every Tuesday, and in the same very premise, the
10:52ASI had directed the Muslim side to offer namaz on every Friday.
10:56So our first bone of contention was that in the place where the deity is in full control of the
11:03premise in question, where it's a premise of a Hindu temple, a coexistence cannot happen, and direction to offer namaz
11:11in a temple premise is erroneous, and the true nature and character of the premise in question must be ascertained.
11:18On this demand and on this request made before the Honorable High Court, on 11th of May 2022, the matter
11:24was admitted before the indoor bench of the Madhya Pradesh High Court, and later on, the indoor bench of the
11:29Madhya Pradesh High Court directed the ASI to conduct a survey in the premises in question,
11:34and the survey lasted for around 98 days, and 2100 pages report was filed before the indoor bench of the
11:41Madhya Pradesh High Court, which proved to Hilt that this premise in question is of a Hindu temple.
11:46This is the temple of Maa Saraswati Mahavag Devi, and the entire religious character of this premise in question is
11:53that of a Hindu temple.
11:55Various literatures, various historical documents were also cited by us before the Honorable Indoor bench of the Madhya Pradesh High
12:01Court,
12:01and today that portion of the order passed by the ASI of 7th of April 2003 has been set aside
12:08by the Honorable Indoor.
12:09So, let's for a moment talk about the evidence that you produced to counter what is being claimed,
12:17that this is a verdict that came on belief and not facts, and not that ASI report which was able
12:24to prove that uninterrupted prayer was conducted here by the Hindus,
12:31and that this was a temple of Maa Saraswati, because the Muslim side says they will challenge the division bench
12:36order in a superior court, in the Supreme Court.
12:39Now, what are those facts that you will be able to produce and will you be able to defend this
12:44order in the Supreme Court, sir?
12:48Yes, yes, yes, I am very confident because we have a very strong case on merits.
12:52The ASI report is a very important piece of document in this case.
12:57Apart from that, we have given various historical documents to show that this is the premise of Maa Saraswati.
13:03So, if the Muslim side will approach the Honorable Supreme Court, definitely we will file our caveat before the Honorable
13:09Supreme Court,
13:09and we will also present our arguments before the Honorable Apex Court when the time comes.
13:15The court order tells the government to make efforts to bring back the idol of Maa Saraswati or Maa Vagdevi
13:24from the London Museum, from the UK Museum.
13:28Will you rely on the good offices of the government to bring back that idol or will you move court
13:34to seek directions to the government to expedite that process?
13:40See, definitely we have to first file an application.
13:43We have already made several representations to the government of India as well as the ASI to bring back the
13:49idol of Maa Saraswati, Maa Vagdevi.
13:51And today the Indore High Court has directed the government to consider this request.
13:55And if the government does not consider this request in a time-bound manner, we will again move the government.
14:01We will again file our application before the concerned authorities to bring back the idol, which is originally, which is
14:07still existing in British Museum in London.
14:11Mr. Vishwashankar Jain, critics of your petition in court say that the petition itself was a violation of the Places
14:20of Worship Act 1991.
14:23The religious character of the place as it existed on 15th of August 1947 should remain so.
14:33Does that bring into question this verdict by the Indore bench of the High Court?
14:43See, Places of Worship Act 1991 is not attracted in this case by operation of Section 4, Subclose 3, Subclose
14:50A, wherein it has been held that Places of Worship Act will not apply to those places which are monuments
14:55which are protected under the ASI.
14:57So, this monument in question, Bhoshala Complex was protected by the ASI under the 1904 Act, which is Ancient Monuments
15:06and Preservation Act 1904, as well as by virtue of Ancient Monuments and Preservation Act 1958.
15:12So, both these acts come within the exception of Section 4.3a.
15:17I request you to please show your viewers Section 4.3a and this monument in question comes within the purview
15:26of ASI and therefore the Places of Worship Act is not attracted.
15:30It is not Vishwashankar Jain who is saying it is mentioned in the act itself.
15:35We have that on air, Mr. Jain.
15:37Now, critics also say that your petition, apart from being a violation of Places of Worship Act, will open up
15:44Pandora's box.
15:45There are other cases that you are fighting for restoration of right to pray?
15:54It definitely, I feel that the judgment passed by the Honourable Indore Bench of the High Court will have some
16:02bearing on the issues which are there before the different courts of this country.
16:06This is an issue which concerns our entire civilization.
16:09This is an issue which concerns the acts of invaders, the cruel acts of invaders who have demolished our Hindu
16:16temples in the past.
16:17So, to restore back to its glory, its fundamental duty of each and every individual.
16:22So, the judgment passed by the Indore High Court will have bearing so far as other disputes are coming.
16:29You are fighting another case of sambhal, which you insist is the Kalki Aftar, Harihar Mandir, Kalki Aftar Temple that
16:39the Muslim side insists is a mosque in sambhal.
16:43But, are there other cases like this across the country that you are fighting for restoration of right to worship?
16:53Yes, definitely my petitions are pending so far as restoration of Gyan Vyapi is concerned, so far as Mathras Shri
16:59Krishna Jan Mummi is concerned, Tele Wali Masjid in Lucknow is concerned, Adina Masjid in Bengal is concerned, and Malda
17:06which is Adina Temple, Kutum Minar, Taj Mahal, Bhoshala is already there, Vidisha Bija Mandel.
17:13All these things are already for judicial scrutiny before courts of law, and at appropriate time, I feel through legal
17:21struggle, we will be able to restore back our glory.
17:26There are those who say, Mr. Jain, that yes, Ayodhya was an important case, Ayodhya had civilizational value.
17:34Then there were those who insist that Ayodhya, yes, and Mathura and Kashi.
17:40These are places of civilizational importance for devotees of the Sanatana dharma in the land of where their religion started.
17:50But, if you seek justice, as you put it, in different parts of the country, won't it lead to tensions
17:59in society?
18:01You know, there are those who say that you can't keep looking for a temple under every rock.
18:11Why will it lead to common tension? We are not on the streets, we are before the court of law.
18:16And this is a country which is governed by the rule of law, this is a country which is governed
18:20by the constitution.
18:21They also believe in the constitution, I also believe in the constitution.
18:24So, everything is happening through constitutional means and constitutional institutions.
18:29So, it is not about feeling anyone left out.
18:32It is the issue about rule of law.
18:34If the courts are holding something, you cannot say that, oh, I feel bad or I feel good.
18:40It's the court's verdict.
18:41After hearing both the sides, their lawyers were given chance to argue the matter.
18:45We were given chance to argue the matter.
18:47And ultimately, on the facts of each case, the verdict comes.
18:51And when the court verdict comes, the feeling don't matter.
18:54Okay.
18:55It's a big day for you, Mr. Vishwushankar Jain.
18:58Many congratulations on your victory.
18:59It is a massive, massive verdict.
19:02The indoor bench of the Madhya Pradesh High Court has very categorically said that Bhodshala is Maas Saraswati's temple.
19:09For joining me here on this India Today special broadcast, many thanks, sir.
19:16The big question is, will this verdict settle the issue once and for all or actually threaten to open a
19:22Pandora's box?
19:23Let me now throw it open for a wider discussion.
19:26Atikur Rahman is a very well-respected researcher of Islamic studies.
19:31He joins us on this broadcast.
19:32Also with me is Shubh Rasta, an author, an analyst, perhaps two very divergent views.
19:38Atikur Rahman, the indoor bench of the Madhya Pradesh High Court has clearly, on the basis of the Archaeological Survey
19:45of India report, concluded that this was a temple.
19:49This is Maas Saraswati's temple.
19:51The Archaeological Survey of India, sir, recovered a total of 94 sculptures, fragments.
19:57The depictions include Bhagawan, Ganesh, Brahma, Narasimha, Bheirav, other mythological figures, animals like lions and elephants, horse, snake, tortoise.
20:10The presence of Kirti Mukh motifs, divine imagery.
20:15Where is any of this in any mosque, sir?
20:20The question is, should the Muslims not gracefully accept the verdict and move on, take land elsewhere, build a place
20:28of worship, instead of challenging this worship, a verdict in a superior court, sir?
20:35Well, Gaurav, I welcome your suggestion that the Muslims should open their hearts and allow the Hindus to have their
20:45civilisation to see.
20:47No, sir, Muslims will not allow, sir. Courts have allowed, sir. Courts have allowed.
20:51I am saying, I am saying.
20:53Just for clarity's sake, Muslims challenged it, courts allowed it. But go on, sir.
20:59No, since you said that the Muslims should do it, I am responding to that.
21:04I also say that the Muslims should do it. But where are the Muslims? Where are the Muslims recognised in
21:11the past 10 years, other than demonising every evening on media channels?
21:17Otherwise, even I don't want to go into these controversies.
21:18Oh, now you blame media channels, sir.
21:20Yes, not all media channels. Thanks for your listening.
21:24No, Gaurav, this is not a matter for me, at least, sir, concerning Hindus and Muslims. This is a matter
21:31of law.
21:32For me, I am looking at this particular verdict that this verdict absolutely goes in violation of the Ayodhya verdict.
21:41In the Ayodhya verdict, the Honourable Justices had assured me and the nation that non-retrogation is the principle.
21:50The court, here, they said that not are sitting to correct the past mistakes of the past rulers.
22:01The court, in the Ayodhya judgment, assured me that henceforth, the Hindus and Muslims will be living amicably.
22:09There won't be any further dispute.
22:11At that moment, the court, the Honourable Justices were in praise of the 1991 Places of Worship Act.
22:21And Gaurav, last point, I would like to say, even in the absence of the 1991 Places of Worship Act,
22:28the Section 16 of the Ancient Monument Act, 1958, is having a very, very large day.
22:37Even this is in violation, the court is in violation of Section 16, Gaurav.
22:43Let me get Shubh Rasta to respond.
22:47You know, RSS Chief Mohan Bhagwat in 2022 had said that there is no need to look for a shivling
22:54under every rock or words to that effect or under every structure.
22:59Given that statement, and you also heard what Atikur Rahman Saab had to say,
23:06should that not be accepted and move on from what Atikur Rahman describes as a mandir masjid issue almost every
23:15day, ma'am?
23:17So, Gaurav Ji, there are two views to this.
23:20And I would most humbly, I not only accept what Mr. Mohan Bhagwat Ji said,
23:25I also accept what Atikur Rahman Ji is saying, but we need to understand certain, you know, moral and emotional
23:32positions.
23:32Look, the Places of Worship Act, which is always invoked in certain discussions like these,
23:39was enacted as a civilizational compact against perpetual conflict.
23:44Because that was, you know, post-partition India trying to deal with a lot of violence and trying to deal
23:49with a lot of communal tensions.
23:51Now, the intention then is understandable.
23:53However, today, a newly liberalizing and still fragile republic needs to not be trapped in endless historical dispute.
24:05But we need to understand that not everything can be solved constitutionally and legally.
24:12I mean, you may, of course, give a certain kind of a statute to say that from here on we
24:18do this.
24:18But do the moral dilemmas and do the emotional dilemmas get resolved?
24:22They don't.
24:23So, then there is a deeper philosophical...
24:25No, so, but it has to be as per courts of law, ma'am.
24:28Absolutely.
24:29You know, we may be a young republic, but a young republic that moves as per law or will end
24:34up being, you know,
24:35like that nasty neighbor of ours on the western side.
24:39I completely agree with you, Gaurav Ji.
24:41My limited point that I'm trying to make is that the law of any land, and in this case, has
24:48arguably converted a historical question into an administrative one.
24:52And one is all for the administration.
24:54And nobody is here.
24:55I don't think even Vishnu Jainji, who you interviewed prior to this conversation, nobody is talking about taking to the
25:02streets and taking law of the land in their own hand.
25:05People are fighting the entire, you know, dispute in a very legal constitutional framework.
25:10But because we are here on a television debate, I think we need to also move beyond, you know, courtroom
25:18conversations to have more honest, emotional and moral conversations.
25:22My question, my submission is very direct.
25:27Emotional and civilizational reconciliation needs something beyond courtrooms.
25:33We need to understand that legal settlements alone rarely heal these civilizational wounds.
25:39We have, you know, we have examples from post-apartheid South Africa, post-dictators in Chile, indigenous reconciliation efforts in
25:47Canada, Australia, New Zealand.
25:49We need to understand.
25:49So let me get Atikur Rehman.
25:51Okay, let me get Atikur Rehman to respond to a very pertinent point that you raise.
25:56Sir, you know, when you raise the Places of Worship Act, and I did put that question to Vishnu Shankar
26:03Jain, and he said this is an ASI protected monument.
26:06It does not attack the Places of Worship Act.
26:09Then Shubhraashtraji raises that point of a festering wound, speaks of reconciliation.
26:16After all, places like Ayodhya, Mathura, Kashi, Bhodshala, they have a civilizational impact and influence for the Sanatana dharma followers.
26:27Clearly, for the Muslims, there is no significance of Ayodhya or Mathura or Kashi or the Bhodshala, sir.
26:35And yet, you have to battle it out in courts.
26:41For all, I completely agree with Subhraashtra, and I think the Moody government has missed the bus.
26:48They had a golden opportunity in the past 10 years to have recognized some liberal Muslim leadership in our country,
27:00either political, social, or historical.
27:03It could have, you know, had discussions with the Muslim community, some religious leaders, some liberals, some historians, like Mr.
27:13Irfan Habib, and like Mr. the legal laureate, I'm not getting the name, Faizan Mustafa, and that could have built
27:24the bridges.
27:24So, what I think is, you know, if the Muslims are expected to open a big heart towards all these
27:32controversial issues, Irfan Habib Saab, the historian, and various other authorities have accepted the fact that there were despot leaders,
27:43Muslim rulers, who used to serve the temple.
27:45Is it not a big heart for them to accept this particular funny? Despite this, you know, we all day
27:54and night are moving in the courts, and right now, since the past three months, nine just Supreme Court bents
28:01now are at the verge of saying that, why are we wasting time on issues of faith and legality?
28:09Sir, you know, you know, Irfan Habib will not decide whether Hindus will have the right to worship in Mathurada,
28:19Sri Krishna, Jan, Bhumi, you know, that farman is there when Aurangzeb orders its destruction, and you must understand, you
28:28must understand, if Aurangzeb, and I want Shubrashtra to elaborate on it,
28:32If Aurangzeb destroyed either Mathura or Kashi, 1669, those farman are there, I could not, as a Hindu, and I
28:44don't mean I, I mean Hindus could not get justice under Muslim invaders or their descendants, they could not get
28:51justice under the British rule, will they never get justice, Shubrashtra?
28:55Will they have to, you know, bear this cross of not being able to pray in their places of worship,
29:03in the manner in which they would want to, especially in a place of civilizational importance for the Sanat and
29:09Dharm, whether it's Ayodhya, Mathura and Kashi, and they're seeking through a legal recourse, through courts of law?
29:18Gaurav, firstly, I need to respond to Mr. Atikur Rahman, that, you know, one of the reasons why historical reconciliation
29:24in India remains a difficult conversation to be had, is because of very polarized historiography.
29:31Sections of post-independence academic historians, especially the likes of Irfan Habib, have ensured that they have, you know, they
29:40have dealt with civilization and religious memory with excessive suspicion.
29:43And I don't think, you know, people are going to respond to people like Irfan Habib, you know, in the
29:50light that Mr. Atikur Rahman expects the Hindu community to.
29:53The question that you asked, Gaurav, is very pertinent.
29:57Let me tell you that irrespective of Kashi, Mathura, or in this case, the Vaak Devi temple being legally and
30:04constitutionally mandated and built, etc., etc.,
30:07People, Hindus are going to continue the kind of faith that they have invested in these, not just institutions, but
30:15deities.
30:16I come from a land, and it's only now that my eyes have opened to see the kind of destruction
30:21that has happened.
30:22I come from a place in Nalanda, and in our temple, in the temple of our village, the one of
30:28the Shiv, you know, it's a Shiv Parvati deity, and the nose of the deities are cut off.
30:34It's only later that one came to know that it was because of Islamic invasion and all that.
30:39However, despite the fact that it's a khandit murti, everybody in the home does ahwaan of Shiv and Parvati in,
30:46say, a bel patra or a gural ka hool, and we have carried on that tradition.
30:51So that is irrespective of whether tomorrow somebody like me puts in a petition to say, or whatever, whatever.
30:57I'm saying that there are ways to go legally, administratively, constitutionally about it, and we all, as conscientious Indian secular
31:05citizens, will continue to fight that battle.
31:07But please do not take away from us the historical, civilizational, emotional right to lay claims to religious and spiritual
31:18properties that are ours.
31:20It's a simple point one is trying to make.
31:23Also, Gaurav had, you know, the last point that I was raising in the previous remark about these truth and
31:28reconciliation commissions that came about in all these countries that one mentioned.
31:36India needs a similar kind of a structure.
31:38And it will come from, I'm sorry to say, it cannot come from Irfan, Habib and Romila, the upwards of
31:43the world.
31:44It has to come from perhaps people like Atikur Rahman.
31:47He needs to come in a leadership position.
31:49So let me get Atikur Rahman to quickly respond to this.
31:53You know, when the initial conversation was Atikur Rahman, that Ayodhya, Mathura and Kashi, let's talk about this, settle this
32:02amicably,
32:02so that then you don't have to have these frictions every day.
32:06But when there is no movement from the other side, when you talk of so-called Ganga-Jamini-Tahzeeb,
32:13sir, then if I have to go through courts of law for one place of worship,
32:18then why just restrict, you know, the effort to one place of worship?
32:21And why not reclaim all through courts of law, through legal means?
32:28So, Gaurav, I think if we are trying to sail, you know, in two boats, this won't work.
32:35Either Subrashtra has to tell the viewer that she is for civilisation, correctness,
32:43or for the legal course of action.
32:49You are suggesting that the legal course of action is the right way.
32:52In the legal course of action, we were assured, we were assured in the Ayodhya judgment for non-retrogression.
33:05Henceforth, there will be a full stop, and both Muslims and Hindus will be living amicably.
33:12Religious disputes were kept, ended 15th August 1947.
33:18No, they may have ended for some, they did not, those festering wounds remain for others.
33:25They may have ended for some, but not for all.
33:28But we will have a longer debate on this in times to come.
33:31I have run out of time on this part of the show.
33:32We are also getting a quick reaction from Madhya Pradesh Chief Minister Mohan Yadav on the Bhotshala verdict.
33:39The Madhya Pradesh Chief Minister has said that the decision by the Honourable High Court recognising Dhar's historic Bhotshala
33:47as a protected monument and a place of worship of Maa Vagdevi, of Maa Saraswati,
33:55is a significant moment in honouring our cultural heritage, our faith and our history.
34:04The dignity of Bhotshala will be further strengthened under the protection and management of the Archaeological Survey of India
34:12and the right of devotees to perform worship will be ensured.
34:18The directive to the central government to consider bringing back the idol of Maa Vagdevi back from the United Kingdom
34:26to India,
34:27according to the Chief Minister of Madhya Pradesh Mohan Yadav, is commendable.
34:32The state government will also make all necessary efforts in this direction.
34:38He's reassured his people the decision of the Honourable High Court, he says, is commendable.
34:45The state government will provide full cooperation in ensuring necessary arrangements for its effective implementation.
34:58Shifting focus to the other big story we're tracking here on India today, Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to the
35:05United Arab Emirates.
35:06It may have been short on time, but it's huge in impact, especially on bilateral ties.
35:14From inking the Strategic Defence Partnership framework to critical energy security deals for petroleum reserves to be established in India,
35:24LPG,
35:25and of course, from a 5 billion UAE investment pledge to maritime and infrastructure, MOUs, and a ship repair cluster
35:35in India.
35:36Multiple takeaways from the visit of Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his interaction, that warm interaction that you see images
35:44of on your television screens with Sheikh Mohammed bin Zaid al-Nahayan, the President of the United Arab Emirates.
35:51India and the UAE signed a major agreement establishing a framework for the Strategic Defence Partnership.
35:58Now, this builds on earlier defence ties and covers manufacturing, cyber security is extremely big, counter-terrorism cooperation is extremely
36:07critical, energy security,
36:09and especially given the current situation in West Asia, in the Strait of Hormuz, and considering the UAE is directly
36:16impacted by this,
36:17energy security deals for petroleum reserves, the LPG pact that includes an MOU on strategic petroleum reserves to bolster India's
36:26emergency storage.
36:28Especially in this times of uncertainty and regional tensions and a long-term agreement for LPG supplies from the UAE
36:36to India.
36:37These aim to insulate India to a large extent from oil supply disruptions.
36:44The conversation on a 5 billion dollar UAE investment pledge.
36:49The UAE is committed to investing about 5 million dollars in India in infrastructure projects,
36:55plus stakes in financial entities, for example, the RBL Bank.
36:59Now, reports say this supports a broader economic growth structure and energy-related initiatives.
37:07Maritime and infrastructure MOUs between India and the UAE, there's been maritime cooperation,
37:14civilizational cooperation between India and the UAE, or that region that time,
37:20since the time of the Indus Valley civilization, so there's an agreement signed for setting up a ship repair cluster.
37:27And this would be in Vadnagar in Gujarat.
37:29And this is aimed at enhancing maritime cooperation, shipbuilding, and ship repair capabilities.
37:37Then the agreement on bilateral engagement.
37:40Prime Minister Narendra Modi met the President of the UAE, Sheikh Mohammed Zayed Al-Nayan,
37:45for discussions on energy cooperation, trade, investment, building on the CEPA.
37:52So far, the conversation is around 80 to 85 billion dollars annual trade.
37:57How do you increase that?
37:58How do you build on regional security structures and welfare of that large Indian community in the UAE?
38:06The Prime Minister condemned recent attacks on the UAE that impacted Indians.
38:13The Prime Minister insisted dialogue and diplomacy.
38:16That's the way forward.
38:17That's the mantra for peace and stability in West Asia.
38:21And this was the Prime Minister's message on the first leg of his five-nation tour.
38:26Now, there is a very fragile ceasefire that's currently in place in West Asia.
38:30But this meeting becomes all the more crucial after UAE's exit from OPEC.
38:37The Prime Minister stopped for a brief visit to Abu Dhabi.
38:40As you see in these images, he was very warmly received by the President, Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed Al-Nayan.
38:47The Prime Minister condemned the attacks on the UAE.
38:50The Prime Minister said, the focus must remain on diplomacy.
38:54The focus must remain on dialogue to find a solution to the current crisis.
39:00He also thanked the President of the UAE for looking after the Indian community in the UAE.
39:07Indians residing in his country being looked after very well.
39:11The Prime Minister's next stop in this five-nation tour is the Netherlands.
39:16Then he'll travel to Sweden.
39:18Then Norway.
39:19And finally, Italy.
39:21Let's listen in to the Prime Minister.
39:22I'll get you more on the story.
39:53The Prime Minister.
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41:19That's a very important statement by the Prime Minister that in every situation India stands strongly,
41:26especially in these difficult times with the United Arab Emirates. I quickly want to bring into this conversation India Today's
41:33Foreign Affairs Zerita Geeta Mohan. Also joining me is Professor Dr. Khinraj Jangir, Professor and Director of the Jindal School
41:40of International Affairs. Welcome. Geeta, key take away, very short visit, a visit which was short on time.
41:47But big on time, but big on impact, key take away from the Prime Minister's visit, Geeta.
41:53Well, the messaging, it's the messaging, it's the enhancing of the defence strategic partnership between the UAE and India, that
42:03was key. Apart from the Fujaira port deal, the importance over here, Gaurav, is the fact that both countries are
42:12looking at mutual interest, in the
42:17security and security and stability. That's an important message. This comes at a time, Gaurav, when we're looking at a
42:25Saudi Pakistan defence pact that could have far reaching ramifications for the region and for for the neighbourhood in India.
42:34And in such a scenario for Prime Minister Modi, while he's embarking on a four nation tour, he adds a
42:41fifth nation and that nation is the UAE. It's quite clear that they want they want to have a strategic
42:47partnership, which is enhanced, which is more fulsome, and which will take care of India's interests in West Asia.
42:56If you zoom in or zoom out a little from the West Asia war and the America question in all
43:04this, it does seem like one where they would want to have alignments to focus on IMEC or bring back
43:11the focus on IMEC, maybe after a resolution to the U.S.-Iran conflict.
43:16Because that is something that has been key to India's growth and connectivity vision.
43:24And so the focus is going to be on how to carry that forward. And in that, the UAE becoming
43:31a key partner.
43:32Okay, so the India-Middle East-Europe economic corridor is something that we will talk about, conceptualised during India's G20
43:40presidency.
43:41But Professor, when you look at the situation right now, the Prime Minister's visit, the optics and what was substantive,
43:48a very clear signal being sent to not just the UAE, but to West Asia.
43:53India stands shoulder to shoulder with the United Arab Emirates. So symbolism and what is the key takeaway according to
44:00you, sir?
44:02Thank you, Gaurav.
44:03Thank you, Gaurav. I think to begin with, we must keep in mind that this is crisis diplomacy and crisis
44:11leadership.
44:12I think more than UAE, more than the region, I think Prime Minister is also showing a great amount of
44:18assurance to the Indians.
44:20Let's acknowledge that in the last two months, there was anxiety and that anxiety got realised when the Prime Minister
44:29went on a national emergency kind of a situation where he advised people to bear the responsibilities.
44:38So I think by making this trip, he achieved not only a remarkable success in the region as somebody who
44:46is stepping into the region while there is a chaos.
44:51India was known to have the neutrality and the fence sitting. He is confident to take political positioning in this
45:01conflict, as your colleague Gita mentioned.
45:03He is certainly making it very obvious that he is on the UAE, Israel and America kind of understanding on
45:13the issue at the moment.
45:15So we are part of the I2U2, but at the same time, you also have, you know, Iran's Foreign Minister
45:22who is currently in India as part of the BRICS Foreign Minister's Meet, Gita.
45:27You know, taking forward the conversation with Professor Jangib, is India being seen as very clearly as part of the
45:38I2U2 camp or is India equally strong on the BRICS footing, India's bilateral interactions with Iran?
45:47How is this all panning out because there are several balls that are still up in the air?
45:52Well, it's not a very absolute in one camp or the other. It's not a black and black or white
45:59Gaurav.
46:01But yes, many would say that there is a tilt because just before the war, Prime Minister was in Israel.
46:08And while the war is on and UAE has shown it's aligned more to Israel, Prime Minister is in the
46:16UAE.
46:17India is looking at her own interests. Even in a travel to the UAE, the interests are clear.
46:22They're looking at the other bigger nation aligned itself to a country that is not a friend of India in
46:30the neighborhood.
46:30I'm talking about Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. So India is looking at her own interests.
46:34But yes, the Iranians are looking at this very closely. And I say this because the Iranian representative and the
46:40UAE representative actually had a spat in their own country's statements during the BRICS, during a session in the BRICS
46:48foreign minister's meeting.
46:49So it's very clear that anybody who is looking at an enhanced strategic cooperation with the UAE and is looking
46:58at alignment with the UAE is sure to be looked at from the prism of being aligned with Israel and
47:06the United States of America.
47:07It doesn't bode well for India when it comes to Iran. But Iran is also looking at her own interests.
47:12No, but aren't we multi-aligned?
47:13Yes. Go on, complete your point, Geetha.
47:19I'm just saying that, you know, in that, the fact that Iran is looking at its own interests in that,
47:25they would want to remain engaged with India because India is a very important country in the region.
47:30And Iran needs India as much as India needs to have good engagement with Iran.
47:35Absolutely. And that's the point I was coming to, Professor.
47:37Why does it need to be seen in silos or India being in either this camp or in that camp?
47:44We are, if it suits India's purpose in all camps, if it helps us, you know, to remain engaged positively
47:51with Iran,
47:52we'll see the best that we can get out of Iran, the best that we can get out of UAE,
47:57and the best that we can get out of either Israel on one side, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar on the
48:02other.
48:04I wish you were right. I think, rhetorically, it makes sense to use the word multilateral world, but it's not
48:13about India's decision making.
48:14Let's understand that the geopolitics has fundamentally shifted in the Middle East.
48:20The status quo of the Middle East has broken.
48:23And in this status quo, India cannot stand with Iran on very tangible interest issues.
48:32As Gita pointed out, India will do what serves its national interest the most.
48:38Yes.
48:39In the region, Indian workers, Indian trade, Indian strategic partnership is one of the most important ones with the UAE.
48:46Yes.
48:47Not with Iran.
48:48The only nostalgia that Indians can have with Iran is the civilizational ties.
48:54But beyond that, in the contemporary decades, that relationship died, and not because of Israel, by the way.
49:01India's relationship with Iran dried up because of India's American nuclear deal in 2008.
49:08And the Modi didn't have to come and shift this Indian foreign policy.
49:12I think it's Manmur Singh who shifted this foreign policy in a significant manner, and he started voting against Iranian
49:19nuclear program with American proposals.
49:22On the BRICS question, I would say BRICS has been swallowed by China and Russia.
49:29If you look at the last four years, three years of the summits, India even abstained when BRICS wanted to
49:37pass a blanket resolution against Israel during the Gaza war.
49:42And India didn't want to sign that resolution.
49:45So I think BRICS, maybe five years back, was a hope for Indian positioning.
49:52Okay.
49:53It's no more space India can really maneuver.
49:57So India has given it up, to my best of the, you know, understanding.
50:02Fair enough.
50:03That's such an interesting point that both of you have raised, and this is something that we will continue to
50:08talk about.
50:09And since you mentioned BRICS, their statement has just come, India has released a chair's statement at the end of
50:17the annual BRICS foreign affairs meeting in New Delhi,
50:21instead of a joint declaration citing differences among member nations over the situation in West Asia.
50:28This statement reads, and I quote,
50:31There were differing views among some members as regards to the situation in West Asia, the Middle East region.
50:39BRICS members expressed their respective national positions and shared a range of perspectives.
50:47Unquote.
50:48The BRICS ministers reaffirmed their commitment to tackling terrorism in every form, including cross-border infiltration, terror financing and provisions
50:58of safe havens.
51:00It also stressed that terrorism should not be linked to any religion, nationality, civilization or ethnic group.
51:08On the situation in Gaza, BRICS ministers, the foreign ministers, called for an immediate, permanent and unconditional ceasefire.
51:19They urged the full withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza and unhindered humanitarian aid access,
51:26while reaffirming support for the United Nations relief and works agency.
51:32Moreover, the BRICS chair's statement also expressed serious concern over unilateral tariffs and non-tariff measures,
51:41that it said were not in line with the WTO, with the World Trade Organization rules.
51:48The chair's statement emphasized the importance of safeguarding navigational rights and freedom,
51:54both in the Red Sea and Bab al-Mandab Strait.
51:59So, this just goes on to indicate how precarious the situation is,
52:06not just in West Asia, but also amongst the BRICS member countries.
52:12And that's a story we'll be tracking very, very closely.
52:15I've run out of time on this part of the show.
52:18Many thanks for watching.
52:19News and updates continue on India Today.
52:21Stay with us.
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