- 19 hours ago
Nigeria is losing a significant number of its most talented professionals, who are leaving the country in search of better opportunities abroad. This mass migration of Nigerians is commonly referred to as ‘japa.' In this week’s show, Edith Kimani asks young Nigerians what is driving them to leave the country.
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00:07This week on the 77% Street Debate.
00:13Almost 90% of the people I went to school with have left the country.
00:17If you're a doctor, there's no reason for you to be in Nigeria.
00:20That is what everybody says.
00:22So the fact that people are running away because of money is a problem to me.
00:25You took an oath to save lives.
00:28This is a sense of belonging.
00:30This is beyond pain.
00:32If everybody leaves Nigeria, so who would build Nigeria?
00:34Come to Nigeria, get the knowledge over there, come back and create opportunity.
00:38I don't agree.
00:40I don't agree because hope is not a strategy.
00:43You don't hope.
00:43We keep hoping for 60 years.
00:45We have people in power who are not concerned about the people that are concerned about their pockets.
00:49Why aren't people able to get what they need from this country?
00:52Well, that's a very tough question.
00:54That's why I'm asking you.
01:02Hello and welcome back to the 77%.
01:05This week, we are back in Nigeria.
01:08And before we continue, I'd like you to picture something.
01:10Imagine living in a country where you feel completely frustrated by your government's efforts
01:14and feel absolutely no way out.
01:17What do you do?
01:18Well, for most Nigerians, they decide to japa, the Yoruba word for run.
01:23And so huge is this problem that recently elected President Tinubu asked people in the diaspora in the U.S.
01:29to come back home and forget the frustrations of the previous government.
01:32But is this enough to allow the young people here to remain?
01:36That's the question we have today.
01:37And I'm going to begin with Samson.
01:39Now, you are one of the people who is saying that, look, this country is not really working out for
01:45me.
01:45And given the chance, I am taking the first flight out of here and never coming back.
01:49Why?
01:51So I'm a digital entrepreneur.
01:52I think about me having solutions to many problems and then still trying to battle with infrastructure,
01:59thinking about power, thinking about my internet, thinking about infrastructure that will help me do many things.
02:04I wouldn't want to do that.
02:06So I would think about me looking for a place where I have all of those things that can enhance
02:10my idea to create the solutions that I'm looking for.
02:13Okay.
02:13So give me an idea of how frustrating it is, this lack of infrastructure on a normal day.
02:18Paint a picture for me.
02:19So just imagine me getting into the airport or the marketplace and I need to quickly attend to one of
02:25my clients
02:25and I don't have access to the internet or me trying to even use my data to do what I
02:30want to do.
02:30But I'm locked out because of the fact that the courts are not working and all of that.
02:34I've had several challenges like this where I'm trying to do something, but I mean, I get into the environment.
02:40There's no Wi-Fi that can make me do stuff.
02:42There's no infrastructure that can give me an idea of what I want to do.
02:46It's very frustrating.
02:47Okay.
02:47So let me hear from other people here.
02:48Just the state of affairs in Nigeria at the moment.
02:51How would you describe it?
02:53Oludayo.
02:53So this case of Nigeria, yeah, you might see things are not working right, but it's not beyond redemption.
02:58Nigeria is going to be a better place if we all contribute our parts to make it a better place.
03:02Okay.
03:03So you say it's going to be a better place, but what is the situation presently?
03:06Yes.
03:06There's a reason why we are a developing nation, right?
03:08We are not as developed as a Western world, yes.
03:11But nevertheless, things are getting better.
03:13You can see unicorns springing up around everywhere.
03:16I mean, the data space, I mean, the tech space.
03:17So I can see a lot of things happening.
03:19So yes, things are getting better.
03:21And you can only hope that things get better.
03:23Okay.
03:24So things are getting better.
03:26And yet, Nimide, as you so beautifully wrote in one of your articles for your blog, people are already leaving
03:32and they're leaving in droves.
03:34And it's having an impact already, not just on society, but on your personal life.
03:37Can you tell me about that?
03:39Well, things have gotten really lonely.
03:42Typically, you have to work.
03:43I normally run a very tight schedule.
03:46I love friendships.
03:47And I would be able to say on Monday, I'm hanging out with this person.
03:50I'm hanging out with that person.
03:51On Friday, I'm like, what's the shortage of friendships and the shortage of things to do has, it has really
03:57been on an increase.
03:59Beyond that, I also understand why people are leaving.
04:02The thing about living in Nigeria is that the paradox is that there's a lot of individual brilliance, right?
04:09But it doesn't translate to anything collectively.
04:12Because like he rightly said, there's no structure.
04:15There's no infrastructure in place.
04:16So people want to take that brilliance and take it to a country that works, a structure that works.
04:20And you can't blame them.
04:22So even for those of us who have not, you know, someone of courage or being able to just uproot
04:28ourselves and leave,
04:29we are left with, you know, the keeping up with our friends, with all of the digital media, social media,
04:37Twitter.
04:37It feels like we're seeing every day.
04:39But the truth is, we are separated.
04:40We are alienated from people we've grown up with.
04:42We are separated from family.
04:44Like, I have friends that, one of my friends, today is a mom's birthday.
04:48She's literally the only child.
04:49And she doesn't even know when she's going to see her, right?
04:52And it's just happening like that.
04:54We talk about the impact it has on youth.
04:55But it's also impact on the parents you're leaving behind.
04:58And the people that you don't know when they're going to fall sick, things are really bad.
05:02You don't know when, if the next time you're coming into Nigeria is to bury your mom or to bury
05:06your dad.
05:06So it's really painful.
05:08Yeah, but you said that you understand why they're leaving.
05:11By the way, how many people have friends who've jappered?
05:13Let me see by show of hands.
05:16That's everyone.
05:17That's everyone.
05:18Okay, so let me talk to Dr. Dapo here.
05:20Because he is actually working very closely with the Permanent Secretary here in Lagos for the Youth Commission, correct?
05:26So if Lagos and Nigeria, indeed, is one of the biggest economies in Africa, why aren't people able to get
05:33what they need from this country?
05:35Well, that's a very tough question.
05:38That's why I'm asking you.
05:39One challenge we have is the number of people compared to the resources that we have in this country and
05:48also management of that resource.
05:51We're a low-middle-income country.
05:53So we can't actually compare ourselves fully with the Western world, which is also a high-income country.
06:00So I think it's natural that people move to places where there is a greener pasture.
06:06What I find a bit disturbing is the number of people.
06:12Exactly.
06:13And just for the information or for the benefit of our audience, a recent report stated that nearly 70%
06:18of Nigerians actually would want to leave this country to leave elsewhere.
06:23But not everybody does.
06:25And, in fact, some people want to return.
06:26And that's the story of Antoleki here.
06:28Tell us more.
06:29Yes, I'm actually a rakba.
06:31I wasn't born in Nigeria.
06:32So what is rakba?
06:33Coming back.
06:35I wasn't born in Nigeria.
06:37I didn't go to school in Nigeria.
06:38I didn't do anything in Nigeria.
06:39I came to Nigeria for the first time when I was 20.
06:42And then, so on and off, I've been in Nigeria for 10 years.
06:45And I have absolutely no intention of ever moving back to America.
06:50And it's intriguing because Samson here mentioned something that is the problem to me.
06:54He said that he's a problem solver.
06:56So I don't understand why a problem solver would be leaving a place that has problems.
07:00We need his talents.
07:01And that's my issue with rakba.
07:02People can travel and do whatever the heck they want to do.
07:04But it is our quality individuals are leaving.
07:07And that is what the problem is.
07:09By all means, go and travel abroad.
07:11Go to school.
07:12Have university experiences.
07:13But please bring those experiences back.
07:18Okay.
07:18Hey.
07:19Whoa, whoa, whoa.
07:20Basically for me, the word japa has a literal meaning and a figurative meaning.
07:25So literally in Yoruba, it means to run away.
07:28And when you say someone is running away, something is chasing you, right?
07:32And most of the time, it's like you don't have a particular purpose or a reason.
07:36You just want to run.
07:38If something happens here, everybody just runs.
07:40Everybody just disperses.
07:41There's no particular direction.
07:43But then there are some Nigerians who still have hope in Nigeria and come in the figurative
07:49path, which is you're moving with a purpose.
07:51There are Nigerians who intend to go and come back.
07:54There are Nigerians who go to improve themselves personally and professionally to come back.
07:59And there are lots of them who have come back to create opportunities for other people.
08:04So Nigeria is a developing country, right?
08:07But then there are countries that have more resources, more infrastructure than we have.
08:11And it's not a big deal if some persons want to go, get better, and come back.
08:16At the same time, you can also stop people from wanting to go and not come back.
08:20It still ends up with individual opinions and choices at the end of the day.
08:27OK, so I want to talk to Dr. Foller for a second because you're a doctor and also, interestingly,
08:32a visual artist.
08:34I have no idea how you manage those two schedules.
08:36I can barely keep mine up.
08:37So your industry medicine is one of the worst affected by JAPA, at least from the reports
08:45that we're hearing.
08:46Tell us a little bit about that.
08:47Are you seeing an impact?
08:49Almost 90% of the people I went to school with have left the country.
08:53There's something about being a medical doctor that Nigeria is really failing at.
08:57If you go to other countries, Western countries, there's this huge amount of respect.
09:03And, you know, there's a care that is given to medical doctors that we do not have here.
09:08The fee is very bad.
09:10Living conditions are very bad.
09:11And, you know, if you break down what the government is giving to the doctors in the
09:17country here, it's really bad.
09:18I have a lot of hope for the new regime, hoping that things will change for sure.
09:25I'm also hoping that my colleagues will also come back to the country when they've developed
09:30themselves and all that.
09:31But most people just want to run.
09:33If you're a doctor, there's no reason for you to be in Nigeria.
09:36That is what everybody says.
09:37Okay, let me come back to Oludayo here for a second, because you said that, you know,
09:42things are bad, but there's no reason to go.
09:44When you hear Dr. Falo speaking, I mean, surely those two worlds don't belong together.
09:49So I'm not saying there's no reason to go, right?
09:52But if you are going, what's your intention?
09:54If everybody leaves Nigeria, so who will build Nigeria?
09:56That's the truth.
09:57We all have to go.
09:58Yes, you can go get the knowledge and come back and build Nigeria.
10:01Come and cause destruction in Nigeria.
10:03Yes, there's a problem, right?
10:04But in the face of a problem, when you solve the problem, you create opportunity.
10:08Come to Nigeria, get the knowledge over there, come back and create opportunity in Nigeria
10:13and make Nigeria a better place.
10:14Okay.
10:15I don't agree.
10:16I don't agree.
10:17I don't agree because hope is not a strategy.
10:19You don't hope.
10:20You keep hoping for 60 years.
10:22We have people in power who are not concerned about it, people that are concerned about their
10:25pockets.
10:26Imagine me get out of the country, get out of the knowledge, come back, and I'm being sabotaged.
10:30I'm being killed just because I need to strike a deal with someone in government to make
10:34my idea come to reality.
10:35I mean, we're talking about a country where you can literally not say what will happen
10:39the next time.
10:40No security, no infrastructure.
10:42You're telling me that I should go.
10:43No, no, no, no.
10:44I'm not saying that all the countries are not like that.
10:46I'm saying that there are things that I should be certain about.
10:49There are things that should be norm for me, provided by the government.
10:53That's the reality of what we are talking about.
10:55Give me a second because Nimide had wanted to say something.
10:57Yes, and I also think that you can't discount the fact that the problems in Nigeria are very
11:02institutional.
11:03People leave this country.
11:04I have friends who have left this country, and in three years they have houses because
11:08there's mortgage systems.
11:09We don't have that in Nigeria.
11:11We do not have that in Nigeria.
11:13And it's even if we do, it's accessible.
11:15I think that we come from a place of privilege.
11:21Let's listen to...
11:22I think that it comes from a place of privilege.
11:24If you think that a normal person can access the things that you say that...
11:27Even in the abroad...
11:28No, no, no, no.
11:29It is not...
11:29No, no, no.
11:30No, no.
11:31No, no.
11:31This is the problem.
11:32I think oftentimes, because we have access to social media, we think everyone's life is
11:36perfect.
11:37It's not like that.
11:37Even in the abroad, you have to have a certain kind of salary to get a certain kind of
11:40mortgage to get a certain kind of house.
11:42Everywhere has its own kind of strategies and rules.
11:44He said something about a doctor.
11:45And I know even when I was trying to study medicine, doctors are supposed to have some kind of
11:49ingrained reason to want to help people.
11:52So for the fact that people are running away because of money, it's a problem to me.
11:56You took an oath to save lives.
11:58But don't you think...
11:59Don't you think...
12:00Hold on.
12:01They don't want to die.
12:02Doctors die.
12:03But they...
12:03My problem that took eight years for the government to fix.
12:07That took eight years for the government to fix.
12:10And when this problem was addressed, what did the government say?
12:13They said it was a spiritual attack on the medical profession.
12:15Hold on.
12:16Hold on.
12:16Hold on.
12:16Hold on.
12:17Hold on.
12:18Hold on.
12:19Hold on.
12:19Hold on.
12:19Let's just come back to center for a second.
12:22You said something about the medical profession and questioned what is driving the doctor's
12:28desires and what their motivation is.
12:30Yes.
12:30And Namide is trying to explain something.
12:32This is a sense of belonging.
12:35This is beyond pain.
12:36This is a sense of...
12:38No, he did say that there's a level of ingrained respect that comes to the profession in other
12:43countries.
12:43And we'll be...
12:44I feel like we'll be disillusioned if we say that we don't see it.
12:47We see it.
12:48We hear about it.
12:49We hear about the systems.
12:50I mean, there are complaints in the UK about NHS systems.
12:53Everybody knows that.
12:54But the truth is, if you are a medical doctor, you've put nine years.
12:57Am I correct?
12:59Nine years of your life into caring for people, into catering for people, into making sure that
13:04people are alive, into basically being God in some sense, then you should deserve that
13:10level of respect from the government.
13:12Okay.
13:12Now, because we've invoked the name of doctors here, let's reintroduce him to the discussion.
13:19Now, the question was posed, you know, what is the motivation for a doctor?
13:24But of course, if the conditions are so terrible, as Nimide is explaining, then why should you
13:28stay?
13:29But if you don't stay, that's the other part.
13:31Who then gets to fix the system?
13:33Now, we need to say, the first thing is very important.
13:36You're trying to downplay the importance of pay, and that is very, very bad.
13:41These doctors are non-machines.
13:43Do you understand?
13:44Now, we work in a system where you work morning shifts and night shifts.
13:50You understand?
13:50We have periods where you have to work the whole weekend.
13:54Do you understand?
13:55How do you give your services, your mind, your hands, when you're thinking about your rent,
14:01when you're thinking about your transportation, when you're thinking about data, when you're
14:05thinking about your family?
14:06Do you understand?
14:07Most people come from families where the mother, the father, everybody's borrowing money to send
14:12this boy to school.
14:13You get there, you become a medical doctor.
14:15You're hardly at home because you have a lot of shifts.
14:17So many patients to see, first of all, because in Nigeria, we have about 4,000 patients to one
14:22doctor, so I don't mind.
14:24You know, I'm okay with seeing as many as I want to see.
14:27You understand?
14:28But what happens to me?
14:29Where do I go to after seeing everybody?
14:32Where am I sleeping?
14:34What am I eating?
14:34All right.
14:35Let's bring in Eseosa because I hear her nodding.
14:37You have something to add to this?
14:39I was nodding because I had an experience where I went to the doctor to get a diagnosis,
14:43and in the middle of diagnosing, he was dozing off.
14:46And I asked him, I asked him, are you okay?
14:49He said, yes.
14:50I have been, I'm not okay.
14:51I have been working all day.
14:53We do a hundred, one person to a hundred people per day as a doctor.
14:58That is crazy.
14:59And I'm hearing 4,000 to a doctor.
15:01That's even, you know, much more explosive.
15:03I want to agree with something she said when she talked about looking at dynamics.
15:07There is the dynamic of privilege.
15:09I'm not trying to downplay your, yes, because she said that she lived abroad all her life and
15:15then she came.
15:16It's a different feeling when you're coming from there, when you've been raised from there
15:20and you come down here.
15:22We need to also look at the dynamics of privilege when we're discussing these things.
15:27We cannot give a one-size-fits-all approach of view to everybody's reason for leaving.
15:33All right.
15:35Dr. Dopper, let me get you for a second because you've been silently observing everyone very
15:41pensively.
15:42What are your thoughts?
15:43All right.
15:43So I think there is what I would describe as a push and pull factors to people living.
15:50Something is forcing people out.
15:53On the other hand, something is being incentivized to bring people in.
15:58It's important we know that the countries we're talking about are not interested in taking
16:03the worst of us.
16:04So there's a dynamic.
16:06We train skillful people at low cost.
16:09And we have a huge, huge population of young, hardworking people.
16:15Yes.
16:16And the question, of course, that Dr. Foller then comes to mind, how do you incentivize
16:21him to stay, you know, in spite of these conditions?
16:25Okay.
16:26So, yes.
16:26Now, there are several things we can do to incentivize him to stay.
16:31Firstly, we have to answer the question of our love for country.
16:35I mean, every citizen of every country should be primarily interested in their country, first
16:41of all.
16:41Then secondly, there are things that the government can do to make life a bit better for people,
16:48which is also what I believe that we should be clamoring for.
16:52Not necessarily, because again, we have to look at being resourceful.
16:57We have to look at being resourceful.
16:58We cannot, you cannot have somebody have an opportunity to practice somewhere in the United
17:04Kingdom and the person would naturally want to be here.
17:09I mean, the person would obviously want to live for something better, because that's
17:13the normal human tendency.
17:15Okay.
17:16Please.
17:16Go ahead.
17:17I am, let me just say this.
17:18I am not against people leaving.
17:20By all means, do what you want to do.
17:23But I'm often hearing some things like that side is amazing, and it is not.
17:27First and foremost, we need to look at the color of our skin.
17:29I'll say it here, being black and being abroad is not friendly.
17:34I was, in America, I was American, I was black American.
17:37So now that's even different than being an immigrant in America.
17:41It's an extremely different experience.
17:43Everyone should go and have a blast.
17:44But those stories we hear about people living abroad and how they feel, they are very valid
17:48and true.
17:49So by all means, if you'd rather deal with racism over tribalism, go and have a blast.
17:53But I don't want people to think that automatically, once you go, it's going to be amazing.
17:58Even if you are that skilled, excellent talent, you will still face challenges.
18:02So my charge is that if you're going to go, please just take those resources and please
18:07bring them back to Nigeria.
18:09We need it.
18:09Okay.
18:10That's it.
18:10We need it.
18:11There was another statement here from the back.
18:12Let's see.
18:13I just want to say, I would rather be discriminated against in a foreign country than be killed in
18:17my own country.
18:18And then you don't have to do nothing to be killed in Nigeria.
18:21Nigeria, there's something called, don't let Nigeria, it's a phrase, don't let Nigeria
18:25happen to you.
18:26And what that means is don't let the system fail you.
18:28And I think a lot of people are leaving because Nigeria has failed one too many people.
18:33And if we all, I mean, if this country is empty, maybe the government would finally wake
18:38up because they'd be sleeping on the bicycle.
18:41Okay.
18:41Okay.
18:42Now, there's something interesting, which I discovered as I was doing research on this
18:45topic, which is where exactly Nigerians are going.
18:48And not surprisingly, the countries that topped the list are Canada.
18:51US, Europe, and only one African country featured on that list.
18:56And that was Ghana.
18:57So if the idea is to better your lives and not really to live in the abroad, as we are
19:01saying, why not move to fellow African countries?
19:04Why not go to Senegal?
19:05Can anybody help me with that answer?
19:07It's a developing country.
19:08I mean, so I'm sure you know what is happening currently in Ghana.
19:11You know the situation in Ghana currently.
19:13It's a developing country.
19:14Yes, true.
19:15But I mean, if you're telling me that the problem is infrastructure, internet, access
19:22to health care, there are many African countries which can support you in those fields.
19:26Okay.
19:26So tell me one or two of the countries.
19:28Kenya is one of them.
19:29Okay.
19:29Yeah.
19:30I agree with you.
19:30So I'm not saying that you, no.
19:32Remember that I didn't mention.
19:33I'm just trying to figure out if it's a fantasy about living in a Western world or if it's
19:39about truly improving your life.
19:41You had a point and then I'll come to you.
19:43Okay.
19:43So what I wanted to talk about is where he mentioned that the disadvantage outweighs the advantage,
19:51but he doesn't mind.
19:52Right?
19:53I wanted to ask him, like, have you checked the number of people who are currently trapped
19:58and who are in trouble but can't come back home?
20:01I mean, even in the countries that you are attracted to, that you think everything is
20:06rosy and beautiful and then you can develop your skills.
20:09There are so many Nigerians that are trapped but cannot come back home.
20:13So that's the point I wanted to make.
20:14And the effects, the effects years later are devastating.
20:18We don't talk about mental health issue a lot in this country.
20:21We don't even care about it.
20:23Like, uh-uh, you fell down.
20:25Stand up.
20:25Stop being silly.
20:26We have a system of shame.
20:28When people jackpot and they don't make enough money, they come back home and people are laughing
20:32at them.
20:33When people go through stuff, they come.
20:35And so they hide that shame.
20:36So there is already that system.
20:38We have so many things we need to change.
20:39It is not just the government.
20:41It is us.
20:42Each and every one of us.
20:43Our mindsets.
20:44There is pride when a child goes abroad and then he's sending money home to build houses
20:49and all.
20:50So there is that shame.
20:51I'm coming back home.
20:52I'm going to hide myself.
20:54Even here, let's forget about people that go abroad.
20:57Even here, right, you would see someone riding a big car and you see someone checking and
21:03he talks to you, would you agree with the person?
21:05You wouldn't because there is already that ingrained in us from when we were little.
21:10Girls are raised to be a competition with each other.
21:13You know, so it is, it's a hard topic.
21:16But yes, the shame is there.
21:17It is in family.
21:18It is in every system, every unit from the family.
21:22So if we're going to build confidence, it has to start from the family.
21:25So we're going to change that with this generation.
21:28All right.
21:28Oh, we've never had clapping mid-debate before.
21:34Yes, you can.
21:36And as Dr. Fola says something, I want you to think about solutions, right?
21:40I completely agree with what she said.
21:42You understand?
21:43Having, the shame is not just only about if you leave and you're forced to come back.
21:48If you fail in Nigeria too, you will hide yourself.
21:51So nobody wants to fail.
21:53There's also the issue of the glamour.
21:55You mentioned, why don't people go to other African countries?
21:58It's true.
21:59Everybody wants to be with white people.
22:00I don't know why.
22:01I don't understand it.
22:03But I would say this lastly, right?
22:05If you want to move, you move with purpose.
22:07You have a skill.
22:07You have a reason.
22:08You know your plan.
22:09You know what you're going to do.
22:10And you have to come back for sure.
22:12You understand?
22:13Don't leave people.
22:14A lot of people, and it's true, there are more people leaving without a plan,
22:18without a purpose, more than those living with purposes.
22:22Okay.
22:22So, at the beginning of this debate, there was a question of whether you believe and trust
22:27that what the government is doing right now is enough to secure your future,
22:30because that's really what you're fighting for.
22:33And I want to see, how many people would rather stay, based on this conversation today?
22:38How many people will say, I'm going to be in Nigeria, come what may?
22:43Okay.
22:47We're not going to have manipulation of the election here.
22:50All right.
22:53And let's see, how many people would still want to Japa?
22:58Okay.
22:58I think we're almost split down the middle.
23:00So, the question is, how do we make sure that not that people don't leave,
23:05there's nothing intrinsically wrong with people wanting to emigrate and leave,
23:08but that people want to come back and build this country?
23:11How does that happen?
23:13Any ideas?
23:14First, I think it's very important that we look within, like we've been talking about purpose.
23:18I think it's also very key that we need to be honest with ourselves and do research.
23:23I know many people are speaking from a point of frustration and anger,
23:26but we can even look at this current administration from states to the federal government.
23:31There's so many more young people, so many more technocrats,
23:34educated people who deserve to be in their positions that are actually getting positions this time around,
23:38different than what we have possibly seen in the past.
23:41So, I want people to realize that we do have some of the infrastructure that we want,
23:44but because we speak from a point of anger, that we kind of just dismiss things.
23:47So, we have to absolutely look within.
23:49And most importantly, again, we need to run for public office.
23:53Okay, let me hear from one of the young people who said that they would want to stay.
23:56Would you like to speak to me?
23:57Okay.
23:58What do you think it would take for you to say that I'm never going to leave Nigeria,
24:02or even if I do, I'd really want to come back and settle here?
24:05Nobody here talks about Nigeria's educational system, which is like really terrible.
24:10I'm currently in 311, and I've seen people like constantly not attend classes,
24:15but those of us that are like always reading at night, like study classes,
24:20we don't get that score.
24:22And people that don't attend the class, they just pay the lecturers or something, and they pass.
24:27So, even that is really discouraging for me to like,
24:31okay, I want to stay in Nigeria and like learn.
24:32Because even if I work hard, get the degree, get my first class, everything,
24:36if I don't have the right connection, if I don't have the money,
24:38getting a job is like really difficult.
24:40So, you don't see any way that, you know, your stance on JAPA is going to change?
24:45No, it's not going to change.
24:46But I actually have the intention of going abroad, getting a good degree,
24:51getting the like technology, because most of the technology are not available in Nigeria.
24:56So, going abroad, getting the degree, the knowledge especially,
25:00coming back to Nigeria and like try to help, yes, and develop it.
25:04All right.
25:05Let's hear some more solutions before we wrap this debate, please.
25:08All right.
25:09So, for me, you're giving me a solution of how to stay and you want to leave.
25:13Yeah, yeah.
25:14The problem's over.
25:15No.
25:16So, for me, I think it's about mindset.
25:18I think it's about you becoming the value player in wherever you find yourself.
25:24I think about you thinking about the fact that you are the assets to the country
25:27and not a liability, thinking about the fact that you are a solution provider.
25:31Okay.
25:32So, that purposeful living that you were talking about.
25:34So, earlier at the beginning of this debate, we did have a very simple question.
25:38Why are so many Nigerians leaving in droves?
25:40I think we've heard the very many reasons.
25:43Should they stay?
25:44Should they go?
25:44I think they will continue to go.
25:46And whether or not they come back is something that we only have to wait and see.
25:50Well, something we don't have to wait and see is you next time for our show.
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