- 5 hours ago
Tradable Bits run data-backed fan engagement for the Dallas Mavericks, San Antonio Spurs, Buffalo Bills, and the AFL.
Mike Morris- after a combined 15 years at Southern Cross Austereo and Cricket Australia- now running APAC.
Mike tells us about Tradable’s pioneering launch of Agentic AI fan solutions for sports teams and leagues.
With 80% of global young fans feeling disengaged from their teams, this could be the silver bullet to execute a tailor-made fan experience.
Mike Morris- after a combined 15 years at Southern Cross Austereo and Cricket Australia- now running APAC.
Mike tells us about Tradable’s pioneering launch of Agentic AI fan solutions for sports teams and leagues.
With 80% of global young fans feeling disengaged from their teams, this could be the silver bullet to execute a tailor-made fan experience.
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SportsTranscript
00:04Hello, everyone, and welcome to Sports Cutting Edge, Australia's sports technology podcast.
00:08We're here for ASTN, the Australian Sports Technologies Network, and we're also here
00:12for our very fine friends at Dailymotion.
00:15Now, today on the show, we're looking at agentic AI.
00:18This is artificial intelligence that doesn't just think, but it acts.
00:22And to do that, we're going to highlight one of the great companies in sports technology,
00:26and they have been for the past 16 years, Tradable Bits.
00:29The guest on the show, an old mate of mine, the APAC boss of Tradable Bits, Mike Morris.
00:34Before we get to Mike, I do want to give a shout out again to our wonderful friends at Dailymotion,
00:40and a special bit of love for Jean-Baptiste, who he himself is the APAC boss of Dailymotion.
00:47And he's actually just become an Australian citizen, and just got a house in the suburbs in Melbourne,
00:53so now truly an Aussie bloke.
00:56So welcome to you, JB, not only to Australia, but as always to your show every day.
01:01This is a Dailymotion special for ASTN.
01:04And sports broadcasters, clubs, federations, this message is for you.
01:09Dailymotion Pro is the most complete video suite for sports broadcasters, clubs, and federations
01:16helping you stream on every screen, grow your fan base, and monetize content.
01:21Backed by AI-driven features designed to engage fans and supported by expert teams,
01:26it delivers a high-performing and immersive video experience.
01:30With over 400 million active users per month and a network of 5,000 partners,
01:35Dailymotion Pro is a trusted provider across the sports industry.
01:39Find out more at pro.dailymotion.com.
01:43As I say, agentic AI, it's fascinating.
01:46It's sort of the next iteration in artificial intelligence.
01:49It's like a super form of artificial intelligence.
01:53Joining us on the show to discuss all of that, from a tradable bits perspective, Mike Morris.
01:57G'day, Mike.
01:58How are you?
01:59Lucky I'm very well.
02:00It's great to reconnect with you.
02:02Mate, it's awesome to see you.
02:04It's funny, so I met Mike when he was working as one of the number one sales numero numeros
02:11at Triple M in Melbourne, and such a successful time.
02:15You had 10 years at Southern Cross Austerio, and I mean, now SCA in coalition with the old
02:21Channel 7, 7 West, biggest media company in Australia.
02:25So you spent 10 years there, five years at Cricket Australia, as well as in the agency space
02:31with Bastion and TGI and Mumbrella.
02:35So, I mean, you've had an amazing career.
02:37I know this year you've logged on at Tradable Bits, and you're doing something really cool
02:42there.
02:43I want to reflect back a little bit, though, your backstory.
02:47So I went to high school in Gloucestershire, and then you went to Loughborough University,
02:52regarded as the number one university for sport and sports science.
02:57And you studied sports science back in the mid-90s.
03:01Like, we're talking the earliest iteration of sports science.
03:05I mean, what was it like back then?
03:06We're talking 30 years ago, sports science.
03:09I mean, my God, it's changed.
03:10What was that like back then, Mike?
03:12Now you're aging me, so I know I feel a little bit older.
03:14But I was very lucky in that when I was at school, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do
03:21sort of post-school.
03:22And I've got an 18-year-old daughter who's just kind of gone through the same process.
03:26And the one thing that was always consistent for me, and my North Star, was always in and
03:31around sport.
03:32And I had ambitions to play it, but it was never good enough.
03:35And I didn't really know what to do until a careers advisor luckily tapped me on the
03:40shoulder and said, have you heard of this place with Loughborough?
03:42They're one of the number one sports universities in the world.
03:45You should think about that.
03:47So fortunately, I got the grades and we studied a whole range of different aspects of sport
03:55around sports movement, sports psychology, and the science of sport, as well as some social
04:03understanding as well.
04:04So I was very, very lucky to do that.
04:06And that sort of set me on my pathway towards working in sport.
04:10And there's still a really healthy and active network from Loughborough, which is really,
04:17really good to see their success.
04:19I can imagine.
04:20All right.
04:20So you leave Loughborough and then you're working in sports marketing, you know, as really just
04:24a kid.
04:25I believe one of your first gigs was the British and Ireland Lions tour of South Africa.
04:34We're talking mid to late 90s.
04:35And then also you were part of a competition at the Daily Telegraph newspaper in the UK,
04:42find a fast bowler.
04:43And given how England played in the late 90s, obviously didn't find one.
04:47Tell us about those sort of early days working in sport and sports marketing.
04:51So when I was at Loughborough, I got a bad knee injury, which a lot of people can relate
04:57to.
04:58And that probably put me on the path best suited to me.
05:02You know, the silver lining was I got involved in management and running sport at university.
05:09And then when everyone else was partying and looking to leave university, I wrote about
05:16100 letters to every sports organisation I thought I could find in terms of I want to
05:21give this a go in terms of working in sport.
05:24I knew I could teach.
05:25I enjoyed teaching and coaching.
05:27And I kind of had that as a fallback.
05:29But my drive was I really wanted to work in sport.
05:32So fortunate to get an internship at a company called API Consulting, which has since been
05:40taken over by Octagon and really cut my teeth working in athletics, working at running the
05:48press office for the British and Irish Lions tour to South Africa.
05:52And we did some great work as well with the Daily Telegraph.
05:55So one aspect was find a fast bowler, which is really interesting working with Dennis Lilley
06:00and others.
06:00And arguably the Poms are still trying to find a fast bowler.
06:04And if you are a fan of the last Ashes series, that would probably resonate.
06:09Hopefully we will find a really good one soon to take on the Aussies.
06:14And then we also ran a Daily Telegraph junior golf competition.
06:19So in terms of full circle, the person who won that Daily Telegraph junior golf competition
06:25was a man called Justin Rose, who has obviously gone on to take on the world.
06:31So it's been an interesting journey for sure.
06:34Mate, absolutely sensational.
06:35And good on you for writing those 100 letters.
06:38I mean, that's what it's about.
06:39It's the hustle and the grind.
06:41And speaking of which, like you moved to the other side of the world and you worked for,
06:44as I say, 10 years at Southern Cross, Australia, such a behemoth.
06:48I mean, at that stage, Kyle and Jackie O were inside the SCA stable, Eddie Maguire.
06:53I mean, the biggest names in Australian media and you're selling the airtime.
06:57So you had a huge responsibility and you achieved tremendous results there.
07:01And obviously, as I said, you walked through the different agencies and did your thing.
07:04And then five years at Cricket Australia.
07:07I want to reflect a little bit on that time at SCA and Cricket Australia.
07:11I mean, cricket, the national sport in Australia, SCA, the biggest media brand with the biggest names.
07:17I mean, what was that experience like, Mike?
07:19As a kid from Gloucester this year, you're working at the absolute zenith of Australian sport and media
07:24through those 15 years combined time.
07:27Like, what was some, like, maybe a highlight or two from that time, Mike?
07:31So the main highlight and the consistent highlight from both SCA and Cricket Australia is I've been very lucky to
07:38work with some great people
07:39who really, in both instances, were driving change, making a difference and trying to sort of look to the future
07:47and look at ways that things could be done better and done differently.
07:51When at SCA, we were sort of migrating and I was part of the team that was leading the change
07:57from just doing radio to radio and digital.
07:59And it was, you know, that's 20 odd years ago.
08:02But trying to sort of connect the digital world to the radio world and really engage with the listeners in
08:08a different way.
08:09And then Cricket Australia really driving the transformation from traditional engagement and traditional sponsorship
08:16to how does digital play a meaningful role in the framework of a sponsorship or a governing body
08:24and working with leaders who've gone on to bigger and better things, such as Ben Wise, who I worked with
08:33at both,
08:33who's now at the ICC and alongside Finn Bradshaw and others, who really taught me a lot.
08:39But we had a great philosophy in terms of what can we do to make a difference and how do
08:45we drive that forward.
08:46So too many people to mention, but a great learning and time of my life.
08:54You know what's really interesting about that, sort of the synchronicity of where it all ends up.
08:58I mean, putting Justin Rose to one side, but the fact that around that 2010 time,
09:04when there's a couple of people in Canada thinking, all right, you know what, traditional media, great,
09:10but there's a bigger horizon that's evolving.
09:14Deshaun Kala and Dmitry Krishinov create an amazing company in tradable bits out of the Vancouver 2010 Olympic Games.
09:22So you've got two blokes in Canada going, okay, there's something happening in this digital world.
09:26And then you're in Melbourne doing the same thing from a radio perspective at the same time, literally.
09:32And now, as I say, you come full circle, you're working with their company.
09:36Tradable bits, yeah, they've got a really cool story that is sort of pioneering that digital-based data insights leading
09:43to fan engagement,
09:44trying to reach fans, not just in traditional ways of going to a venue and then watching on a screen
09:49that's on the wall at home,
09:51but connecting with fans 24-7 with the thing that's literally at the finger, you know, in their fingertips all
09:56the time, digital content.
09:59So I want to talk to you about tradable bits.
10:03Like, obviously, Mike, you would have had the pick of whatever you wanted to do with the next phase of
10:08your career.
10:08Why did you decide tradable bits was the right place for you?
10:13Probably two governing regions.
10:16One is the people.
10:18I really felt like when I met with Darshan and I met with the team, we had a similar sort
10:24of philosophy and approach to getting things done.
10:27And the second side of it is I really admired the work that they've been doing over years to lead
10:34the industry,
10:36the type of companies they've been working with, and they had a great track record in terms of not only
10:43working with companies
10:44but also listening to them and looking at sort of how do we do things better
10:48and try and build something for the industry, by the industry, that makes a difference.
10:54So those were probably the governing factors, and, you know, that then cascades into the broader team.
11:02And, again, I'm very lucky to work with some brilliant people both here in Australia and in Canada on a
11:09cool company
11:12that is not only in sport but also involved in the music industry and entertainment more broadly
11:18when you're looking at fans and fan engagement and that broader connection to the communities that we serve.
11:26Well, yeah, tradable bits, they are a world leader, headquartered there in Canada,
11:30but obviously with a really strong presence in Asia-Pacific now led by yourself.
11:34Some of the clients of tradable bits, Dallas Mavericks, San Antonio Spurs, Portland Trailblazers in the NBA,
11:41the Tennessee Titans, Buffalo Bills in the NFL, in the NHL, Petsburg, Penguins, as well as Maple Leaf Sports,
11:48Live Nation from a music perspective, and obviously the biggest competition in Australia, the AFL, from an Aussie perspective.
11:56So knowledge is power, and tradable bits is, you know, the secret to them is the fact that you guys
12:01are able to get the greatest insights from fans,
12:04which allows a sports team or league to make the best decisions to engage that fan.
12:09From a bird's eye point of view, Mike, can you describe what tradable bits does?
12:15Sure, and I'll try and keep it as simple as possible, but we're basically a leading provider of cutting-edge
12:23fan engagement,
12:24data analytics, marketing solutions to the global sports and music industry.
12:30So we're an operating system, and we sit between data systems and execution channels,
12:37like social media, for example, that turn fan engagement into data for real-time action for teams, leagues, festivals, and
12:46events globally.
12:47And we kind of break it down into three key areas, really.
12:51One is, how do you acquire fans?
12:54So fan engagement tools, zero-party data capture, sponsorship activations,
13:01and what do we, how do we make that usable fan intelligence?
13:05The second part is, how do we use, how do we analyze those fans?
13:09So using a centralized fan profile system that is enriched with ticketing, with sales, with affinity data,
13:19with segmentation and filtering to inform around those fans.
13:23And then the third pillar is really, how do we activate?
13:26So how do we provide leagues, clubs, and organizations with the opportunity to drive targeted messaging,
13:36digital ads, outbound integrations, et cetera.
13:40So really bringing all that together in a connected and cohesive way to make it easier to understand what's happening
13:47in the real world.
13:48And a lot of platforms focus on different individual elements of what we do,
13:53but Tradable Bits connects all of them in one system, one platform, to have a single-minded view.
14:01And in terms of agentic AI, I know that's something you guys are pushing ahead in leaps and bounds.
14:08Can you describe, well, once again, in as simple as way as possible, what is agentic AI?
14:14And we'll get into the exact uses of it momentarily.
14:19Well, let's start at the top, right?
14:22Let's start with what is AI.
14:24And AI, or artificial intelligence, is the technology that enables computers or machines to simulate human learning,
14:32comprehension, problem-solving, decision-making, creativity at scale and at speed.
14:38Traditional AI tells you what happens, whereas agentic AI helps you decide and execute against that.
14:46So agentic AI isn't just answering questions.
14:49It's about the action.
14:51So think of it less like a tool and more like a teammate.
14:56Generic AI is reactive.
14:58You ask, and, you know, everyone out there is probably looking at it and thinking about AI in terms of
15:04sort of what they do in their home life around chat GPT
15:08or various systems that are improving in leaps and bounds.
15:12But agentic AI is proactive.
15:14It observes, it recommends, it can act, and it really is that additional team member.
15:21So to put that into context and kind of use real examples to bring it to life,
15:26if you use a sports environment such as, say, the Australian Open,
15:31an AI reactive tool would be an app that gives you match stats or scores or player insights,
15:38whereas agentic AI or an autonomous system can track the matches, predict outcomes, curate highlights, update the watch schedule, et
15:48cetera.
15:48And if you go through music, entertainment, live events, or even sort of fan engagement,
15:56that's the main difference between the two.
16:00So the simplest way to put it is agentic AI is AI that can take a goal, not just a
16:05question,
16:05and figure out how to achieve it, sequence tasks, troubleshoot, et cetera.
16:10And I think a lot of people are using jargon and using things like AI in terms of what are
16:17we going to use AI for.
16:19I think the burning question and the most important question that sometimes is overlooked is not how do we use
16:25AI,
16:26but what is our problem, what is our challenge, and how does AI help us solve that?
16:30And if you start with that question, then you can deploy AI and agentic AI to speed up your decisions
16:41and improve your decision making.
16:43I mean, it sounds, well, it sounds so powerful, and it sounds absolutely fascinating,
16:48and the extent to which it would speed up and make so many greater efficiencies within a business,
16:53and to be honest with you, reduce costs astronomically.
16:58Okay, so say if I'm a sports team, and I come to you, I'm an Aussie sports team,
17:03let's just pick for the sake of it, Hawthorne Football Club, and I come to you,
17:06I've listened to this podcast interview, and I say, look, I've got to talk to this Mike Morris.
17:10I say, look, Mike, we need to get involved.
17:14So if I'm coming to you and you sign up the Hawthorne Football Club,
17:18are they getting the benefit of 16 years' worth of tradable bits IP in terms of, you know,
17:25AI, obviously, it's trained and it's educated itself to the point where it makes these insights,
17:30makes these decisions, or is it something that's tailor-made for the particular client you've got?
17:36You know, what's sort of the, what's the underpinning of that intelligence?
17:41So, so we're, our system, and what we're doing, we're on a journey in terms of, so again,
17:47what, what is useful for the club like Hawthorne or the end user,
17:51and we are, have been on a journey around setting up AI to improve that and dashboards to improve that,
18:01and we are still in formative stages of rolling out a new system called Octavia,
18:09which will allow open questions to be asked and people to, to gather data in a closed environment on what
18:17they need.
18:18So, the, the important thing with AI and where the unglamorous foundational work has been led by our team in
18:29Canada
18:29is, is focused on governance, data integrity, and context.
18:34So, basically framing the system and the architecture in a way that AI can be overlaid in a safe, secure,
18:43and efficient way.
18:45So, the, the most important thing when considering AI is, is how, what data is coming in.
18:54So, consider that the teams or the music promoters or the events, it's not necessarily about having more data,
19:03it's just having systems that know what to do with it.
19:06It's not always about being fastest or first, it's actually about getting the foundations right.
19:12So, not necessarily a quick fix, but just creating success for the long term.
19:17And to, to put it into, I guess, a simple phrase, you can't add intelligence or AI to chaos.
19:25So, you need to start with the data.
19:27So, data integrity should be and is for us, absolutely first and foremost.
19:33How do we make it clean, consistent, and connected?
19:35And then, once we've done that, you then have a system where AI can, at speed, interrogate that system to
19:45give you the open answers that you,
19:47that you want to questions that are, that are trying and do it in real time without having to necessarily
19:53trawl through the data.
19:54So, it's just a great efficiency to help drive growth and drive understanding of fans at scale and at speed.
20:03You know, it is, it is just mind-blowing, the potential.
20:07You know, it's, it's interesting.
20:08I read an article in The Australian recently and it was talking about the Canterbury Bulldogs.
20:13And essentially, they have trained an AI model on Gus Gould, Phil Gould, who's, you know, like the godfather of
20:19rugby league in Australia.
20:21And considered to be sort of, you know, the godfather of Penrith Panthers and all the great success they've had
20:28in recent times.
20:28And now, more recently, with the Bulldogs.
20:31And essentially, they've created this AI mechanism whereby, in 40 years' time, when, you know, probably Phil Gould is in
20:37heaven and not able to be as readily accessible as he is now at Balmour,
20:42they're able to just ask the AI platform that has been learned all of Phil Gould's nous and productivity over
20:49the years in rugby league.
20:50So, the ability to train this sort of super intelligence and be able to deliver answers that are so on
20:57point with what, for example, in this case, Phil Gould would say in real life.
21:02The potential is just endless.
21:04So, I want to ask, like, are there some particular case studies that you're looking at, Mike, that sort of
21:11help, you know, when you go to market and are selling this?
21:13So, there's some examples of the success you've had at Tradable Bits over the time that you sort of can
21:19say, well, look, this is what we can achieve for you?
21:22So, we're building those case studies out as we speak and looking at the system.
21:27I think the Phil Gould example is a really interesting one in that the AI tools are powerful now and
21:33getting more and more powerful as technology drives forward.
21:37The important thing in the Phil Gould example is not that the AI can find all these tone and stories
21:47and history on Phil Gould and what he says and how he says it,
21:51but actually doing that in a closed, controlled, and safe and secure system so that whatever AI will grab data
21:59from a system.
22:01And the challenge with AI is if the data is not there and there's no context there and it's not
22:09learned from there and it has access to the broader web or the broader history of Phil Gould, it will
22:17fill in the gaps.
22:18So, what companies, businesses, sports need to do is ensure that there's absolute integrity with that data and to make
22:30sure that it's not pulling in sort of PII or having any security issues.
22:34So, those are really the foundational parts of it.
22:38Getting the usability and the use of AI is probably the simple part of it.
22:43The critical part of it is the security in government and then where it breaks or where the watch out
22:52sort of zones are, if you don't get the foundations right, is that contextual engineering and that data integrity.
22:59And that takes time to get it to that point.
23:02And once you've got that, really, AI as a system, as a tool, is, you know, the world is, it
23:10can do almost anything you instruct it to within reason.
23:14And what's the secret to have that level of integrity?
23:18And I really appreciate you bringing that up because it's such a, it's a powerful point that you make around,
23:23you know, if it starts off on the wrong track, it's going to keep going down the wrong track.
23:26Is, is the requirement to have that clean data and data integrity, does it rely upon you being hyper-specific
23:34with the data that you feed into the beast?
23:37Like, how do you go about getting that?
23:40It's a process.
23:41So, you know, that, it seems quite straightforward in the sense to, to get data and data is sort of
23:48sits in multiple systems in different places.
23:50But it is quite a complex task and process to not only get the data, but also to put it
23:57into a system that can talk to other systems.
24:01So, you know, if you're looking at a sports organization, today's teams might have CDPs, they might have fan engagement
24:09tools, they might have different agencies for ticketing or for media buying or for merchandise.
24:14And you have all this data that's sitting in different silos and different places.
24:19So, task one is how do you get the data into the system in a safe and secure way?
24:25And how do you then map that data in a way that allows it to build out information and insights
24:32around fans or groups of fans?
24:34And then how do you then bring that together to action against the data that you know, but also join
24:40the dots against other information and future information that allows you to ultimately serve the fan better?
24:47So, if you know the fan, you know what they want, you know where their likes are, you know when
24:51they bought a ticket, you know their journey, you're more informed and therefore you can communicate with them in a
24:59better way, a more efficient way.
25:01So, there's a win-win-win there for everyone in terms of that engagement because the fan's getting what it
25:08wants based on its history and what it's telling you through the data.
25:12You know, it's interesting, Mike.
25:14You'll probably appreciate this example.
25:16I literally just read this before.
25:18So, Nine Radio recently sold off to Craig Laundie and the Laundie family.
25:26And now Nine Radio, which is 3RW, 2GB, 4BC, et cetera, are now owned by what is called Tapped Radio.
25:35Tapped Radio.
25:35And essentially when the changeover happened, everyone that had an app with those respective radio stations, 3RW, 2GB, were logged
25:45out of their app.
25:47And from what I read in the report, all of the customer data of all those people that were digital
25:52listeners of those radio stations, all of that data was taken by Nine Radio when they left.
25:58They took it out the door with them.
25:59And so, now there's this sort of backfilling process from what I read that this new mob that owns all
26:04these radio stations has to try and catch up because now they've lost that intimate data of all of their
26:10customers.
26:11So, it is such a vital resource in the modern world that we look at.
26:15And from a sports point of view, it's interesting.
26:17Now, I saw some statistics come out of the Barcelona Sports and Entertainment Summit, and it showed that 66%
26:25of sports fans feel disconnected from their clubs, and 81% of those disengaged fans are under the age of
26:3335.
26:34So, out of all fans under the age of 35, 8 in every 10 don't feel connected to their club.
26:40Now, they are global statistics, but it shows that there is such an absolute pertinence for a sports team or
26:47league to create that genuine connection with a fan.
26:51Can you tell us your attitude at Tradable Bits about how you help your clients get that connection?
26:59So, basically, fans of sports, whether they're unknown fans, new fans, or core fans, they leave a footprint in terms
27:08of sort of their engagement with the club.
27:09And if you look at the old world, a lot of that fan engagement was done through media, through TV,
27:19through radio, and through sort of mass communications.
27:23Over the last 20 or 30 years, that landscape has obviously changed massively.
27:29The under-35s that you mentioned are consuming media and sport in different ways.
27:35You know, if you go back to the good old days when you used to go along and watch games
27:41live, you can now see in high definition all the action from the comfort of your own lounge room.
27:48So, for sports, they need to sort of move ahead with what fans are wanting.
27:54There's also far bigger choice out there for fans.
27:58So, you know, Australia in particular is highly saturated in terms of sports franchises and competition.
28:04And kids of today are kind of growing up with different way of consuming sport.
28:10They're playing sports in a gaming perspective.
28:13They are maybe involved in multiple sports.
28:16Maybe they're interested in global sports as opposed to the traditional Australian sports.
28:21So, their access to different sports is far broader.
28:27Their choice around those sports is different to what it used to be when there was probably less choice.
28:33So, sports have to then work harder in terms of sort of not necessarily engaging with their existing core fans.
28:40But what about the future?
28:42What do they look like?
28:43What do they like?
28:44And even to that point, what do they look like and like outside of the season?
28:48So, traditionally, when you look at sport, and let's take sort of rugby league or AFL as an example, the
28:56season runs from March to September.
28:59It's pretty structured.
29:02And then you might move on to cricket or tennis or a summer sport.
29:09The importance nowadays is how do you engage with those fans, not only on match day, but when there are
29:14away games?
29:15How do you engage with those fans pre-game as well as post-game?
29:19How do you engage with them in the off-season when there's so much sports content out there?
29:24And how do you bring them into the tent, so to speak, around what's happening, what are they interested in,
29:31and give them those moments and those meaningful moments where they have this connection to the club, which is going
29:39to life to lifetime.
29:41It's interesting you say that, and actually, on another note that you might relate to nicely, see, the Surrey Cricket
29:47Club in England, they play at the Oval, and they've actually now created this whole hook where they want people
29:53who are working from home to come and work at the cricket, watching the county cricket.
29:57And they've created all these sort of mini offices in the stands where people can work from there, and they've
30:03boosted their Wi-Fi and everything to basically, if you're going to work from home, don't work from the couch,
30:08work from the Surrey, you know, watching Surrey play county cricket.
30:10So that's a little bit cool, I thought.
30:12But in any case, how big is that intimacy aspect?
30:16In other words, creating that, what you said there, that word meaningful connection with the fan.
30:21And I saw some data from the Formula One team, HUS, and they've gone from sending out emails, you know,
30:28direct emails to their clientele, their fan base, and instead of that, they're using a chat bot and WhatsApp messaging.
30:35And from that, they've got an 80% click-through rate on their WhatsApp message that goes direct to fans
30:41versus a 2% click-through rate on email.
30:45So clearly, I mean, getting 80% click-through is bloody amazing.
30:48So creating that, the closer you can be to your fan, the better, yeah?
30:53100%.
30:54And there's different ways of getting close to them and creating those moments, and the physical side of it is
30:59still critical as much as the digital.
31:02I think in that Haas example, you know, the 80%-plus click-through and connection is really important, but
31:08what they've probably done very well is actually understood that not all fans are created equal.
31:14So what are they interested in, what sort of – what's been their journey before, what motivates them to do
31:22things?
31:22So actually, rather than sending one message to 100,000 fans or how many fans in your database is that
31:29you can send a personalized and a contextual message to those 100,000 fans, but you put them into 100
31:37different buckets.
31:38So there may be new fans, there may be core fans, there may be fans with a particular interest in
31:44a certain aspect of that sport or that personality or that player.
31:48The data will give you information around that, and you can use that in a way so that you're talking
31:54to the fan in the right way at the right time to make their experience as good and as optimized
32:02as possible.
32:04Mike, it's funny, I do a little bit of teaching work at La Trobe College and sports and media students
32:12and such, and there's a group of girls in the class, and they love AFLW, and one thing that they
32:21talk about is the fact that, you know, it's just so hard to get coverage to women's sport,
32:27and that's what they're sort of saying, like, you know, how can we make it different and all this sort
32:31of thing when they get into their careers in media.
32:34What do you reckon, what sort of role could a company and does a company like Tradable Bits play to
32:40shine a greater light on, you know, whether it be women's sport, disability sport,
32:47aspects of sport that haven't got, you know, over the journey, those huge levels of coverage like obviously AFL, NRL,
32:55and cricket get, you know, year after year?
32:58One of the things I'm super proud of for Tradable Bits is the leadership that we've shown in and around
33:06women's sports.
33:07So in broad terms, we're working with over 30 clubs and leagues around the world, so netball, hockey, AFLW, WNBL,
33:17and in North America across PWHL, NSL, LPGA, and even Hong Kong Rugby Union.
33:25And some of those clubs have come from a zero fan base, so they're building a club and they're building
33:31a culture and they're building a team,
33:33and they need to connect with and find those fans, and they're starting from a low base.
33:40So while you might have the mega clubs like a Collingwood or other clubs in the Australian system,
33:52the women's clubs or the smaller clubs have got a arguably more connected database,
33:59they're more meaningful connection.
34:02They consume and watch sport in slightly different ways because it's not necessarily always on mainstream TV.
34:09So technology is an enabler to bring those fans and that sport closer together.
34:16I think in many cases, personalities and stories and the different aspects of women's sport or disabled sport,
34:27there's a really rich storytelling to be done and data and digital and content can actually help tell that story
34:35in soundbites or short videos or through social media.
34:41And you can then use data and digital to find similar people to who would like that story and drive
34:50a real connection to those teams over time.
34:53It's interesting you say that, that the connection with women's sport is actually greater for the fan.
34:59And there was a 2023 report by the Victorian state government, and essentially it showed a seven times greater return
35:08on investment
35:09for a dollar spent by a corporate on women's sport versus men's sport.
35:13So while the volume was obviously a lot more money being spent on men's sport, the return on investment was
35:19seven times greater.
35:21So I want to maybe get into that a bit deeper, Mike.
35:24When you're talking to your different clients out there, are you sort of reinforcing that, that greater connection,
35:29that more meaningful connection actually can lead to greater profitability?
35:32And if that story was told more broadly, it might actually help create a bit more of a self-fulfilling
35:37prophecy around women's sport?
35:41I think that, I mean, the words here are interesting.
35:46So I wouldn't necessarily say women's sport and men's sport have got a greater connection.
35:49I think the connection is different and the storytelling is different and the environment is different.
35:53At the end of the day, it's around any sport, whether it's of any type.
36:00It's about finding your audience and connecting to then players or participants or fans to it in a meaningful way,
36:09whether they're starting the game for the first time or whether they're an armchair fan.
36:15So once you have an understanding of the sport and the messaging and the story of that sport in any
36:24league or different environment,
36:27I think you have a really powerful tool to then go and talk to sponsors or go and talk to
36:33an audience in terms of this is who we are,
36:37this is what we do, come on the journey with us because we think you'll fit.
36:43So it's about that level of engagement and that detail.
36:47It doesn't always have to relate to scale.
36:50Scale obviously drives investment and drives interest, but you can also be very effective in terms of communication
36:57and in terms of sponsorship around how you connect with a smaller fan group in a meaningful way
37:02and getting those high level of engagement, that high traction, that high two-way conversation to drive an improved outcome.
37:14Mike, what do you do with the AFL?
37:16Obviously, the AFL, from an Australian perspective, we can all relate to it.
37:20It's the biggest game in town.
37:23Tradable Bits has got a longstanding relationship with the AFL.
37:26Can you tell us about the journey that your company has been on with the Australian Football League, please?
37:33Yeah, so we've been working with the AFL for coming up to seven years.
37:37I'm really proud of that relationship in terms of how we work with the league, but also all 18 clubs
37:45across the men's side and also at AFLW.
37:49So what we've tried to do with the AFL is help drive efficiency and value through better use of data.
37:58So while data can sit in multiple different systems and across different structures, we help bring that together in a
38:09cohesive way that helps to clubs to engage with their fans in a range of different ways across the season,
38:17either pre-game, in and around the games itself, post-game, in-season or out-of-season.
38:23And really, it's about seeing data as the future, which I believe wholeheartedly it is, and is going to be
38:32the consistency across all aspects of sport.
38:36And then how do you then use that data to understand what the fans want, what the fan needs are,
38:43how those fan needs are changing?
38:46And then you can react to it and understand it and work with the clubs and with the league to
38:53foster that strong connection, which the AFL has been at the forefront of for many years.
38:59And really, within that, we're an enabler in terms of helping them to drive that connection with new fans, with
39:08unknown fans, as well as with their core fans who are part of the membership base.
39:13It must be such a fascinating challenge as well, because obviously, you've got such different ends of the spectrum.
39:18Like I heard the Collingwood president recently say on SEN that they're looking for 120,000 paid-up members this
39:26season, all-time record in Australian sport.
39:29And the other end of the spectrum, obviously, a Tasmanian team about to start up, GWS out of Western Sydney
39:37trying to find its feet.
39:38It must be really cool from your perspective, Mike, having worked in this game for a long time, that you're
39:44trying to sort of meet different needs for different clubs within the AFL, so diverse, so different.
39:51Yeah, and you've got to think of clubs and their fans in different ways.
39:55So, you know, our fans, if you think of the Tasmanian example, are Tasmanian fans local to the stadium so
40:04they can come to games?
40:05Or are they of Tasmanian heritage and feel an affiliation or connection back to Tasmania?
40:12Do they live overseas?
40:13Do they live in different states?
40:14If in 2028, if the Tasmanian devils are travelling to Gold Coast, how many Tasmanian residents are now living up
40:25there?
40:26So how do you then connect to that fan base?
40:27So when you're looking at the fan base, how do you understand that?
40:31There may also be people in Tasmania who are not fans of footy, but they're fans of Tasmania.
40:38So they kind of showcase their passion for the state through the football club.
40:42So you're bringing in a new type of fan who isn't necessarily a footy fan, but wants to be part
40:48of that culture and that celebration of all things that link back to that club.
40:55Yeah.
40:56And, Mike, with your tools, would you be able to sort of specify, like hyper-specify a message?
41:02So say if there's a call to action, you know, tickets go on sale for round one in Tasmania's first
41:07season on X date, right?
41:08And then, you know, if you're putting that message out to an 18-year-old kid versus a 70-year
41:15-old grandma versus someone who's never seen footy before, but just loves Tasmania, as you say, wants to represent, versus
41:21someone who lives on the Australian mainland, but has signed up to be a Tassie member because they just want
41:27to support.
41:28Like, would you be able to hyper-specify the messaging that goes out in direct comms, whether it's a WhatsApp
41:33message or email or what have you?
41:35We can certainly inform that and drive that, whether it's through our system or through supporting systems.
41:41The key there is actually the data.
41:43So, you know, what data are you collecting on individuals and when do you start that data journey?
41:50And how do fans engage with the sport across in different ways across seasons?
41:56So, that data, you know, as you would appreciate and everyone would appreciate, we're not advocating or supporting sort of
42:05going out and having a sort of 20-page checklist of data in terms of all this information.
42:09That data can be collected over time, bit by bit.
42:16Signals from the data can be sent based on your actions, so whether you're buying merchandise or whether you're buying
42:22tickets or whether you're engaging in activities with a club.
42:27So, once you are working within a data system over time, you start to get these signals.
42:32You can bring the signals into a centralised platform.
42:36Those signals provide clues as to how you might engage with different fans at different points.
42:41So, you get to a point where, you know, you have Tasmania playing in Melbourne and somebody goes to the
42:50game for the first time.
42:51You can understand that through the data and, therefore, you can use that knowledge in immediate effect and straightaway by
43:03saying,
43:04thanks for coming to your first game.
43:05We really appreciate it.
43:07Or you can go, thanks for coming, thanks for being a season ticket holder for the last three years and
43:12coming to your first AFL game.
43:13Or thanks for coming to your 100th game.
43:16Your fandom is really important.
43:17But your fandom as a first gamer versus your fandom as a 100th gamer or a lifetime member is slightly
43:24different.
43:25So, how do you then communicate to that person with that nuance to kind of show the fan that you
43:32understand them and you care about them and you care about what they care about?
43:38And, Mike, having your perspective of having worked in this industry broadly for the best part of 30 years, what
43:45are your insights about that data collection?
43:47Obviously, friction-free, zero-party data is where it's at.
43:50In terms of how you collect the data and where there might be greater scope for data collection that is
43:57friction-free for the fan but ultimately serves the fan because it enables a greater tailoring to their needs, where's
44:04the growth there, do you reckon?
44:06I think it's going to be built on really, really strict principles.
44:12So, data responsibility and the gathering and use of that data is a non-negotiable.
44:19So, making sure that the governance and the privacy frameworks and that focus and that permission is really respected and
44:28they've got really strong guardrails around it and that control matters.
44:34Absolutely.
44:35You can then go out to fans in different ways and ask for data, either as a mandatory or as
44:42an open field and allow the fan to sort of, rather than tell them what you need, you can sort
44:48of ask their permission or bring them into the club or into the environment whereby, you know, this is the
44:56data we're asking for.
44:57And maybe give them a reason as to why you're collecting it so there's not that surprise or not that
45:02fear that the data will be sort of disappear into the ether and be used in the wrong way.
45:08So, you know, so long as you're clear and transparent in terms of how you're using it and what is
45:13it going to be used for and even to the point of what you're not going to use the data
45:17for.
45:18Having that clarity in a world where there is a bit of fear about data, but in the bigger picture,
45:25the general public is providing a lot of data clues through different systems as part of their everyday world, through
45:34their apps, through their travel, through their activities.
45:41It's how you use that data, which is the critical key and the governing factor rather than sort of what
45:48data you collect.
45:51Now, all right, what do you reckon based on, and you've been very generous with your time, Mike, so last
45:57couple of questions.
45:59When you look at what you were talking about earlier, where, you know, the different room to move for greater
46:05fan affinity, whether it be during the off season, in stadium, in venue, during a match, you know, second screen
46:14whilst watching a broadcast at home.
46:17Where would you advise, for clubs and leagues that are listening to us that are trying to get greater fan
46:22engagement, where do you think the biggest room for growth is in terms of creating that greater fan connection?
46:29Is it during off season? Is it sort of staying 365 in someone's presence?
46:36I think that can help. I think that's part of the consideration.
46:39I think you've got to go back to first principles and go, what is the purpose of what we do?
46:44What do we want to do as a club? How do we want to be seen or engaged with our
46:49fans?
46:49So, you know, I think there is massive upside for fans within their existing fan base.
46:56So while growth is important, it's how do you actually understand more about the core fans that you've got and
47:03then be able to act on it in different ways with them.
47:06I think there's opportunity around how you talk to fans in the off season and leading into games, how you
47:15might engage them after game, like bring them in and make them feel part of the club.
47:20So really in the digital world, it's like, how do you treat people in the same way as you might
47:24treat them if you meet them face to face?
47:26How do you how do you treat them with respect? How do you how you bring them into the into
47:32the journey and give them content or give them a story that they might be interested in and then work
47:38hard with your IP, with your players, with your content around how you might tell that story.
47:46But when you're looking at sport these days, it very much is very much 24 seven and understanding that, you
47:54know, fans are not just fans of one sport.
47:56They can be fans of multiple sports. You know, you think of parents who are going from a netball game
48:01to a basketball game to a footy game of a weekend.
48:04That's kind of what people are doing digitally as well. So understand that they're not necessarily a single minded fan.
48:11They support many sports. So how do you as a sport connect with them better than maybe other sports?
48:17How do you how do you bring them in when there isn't the noise going on around around the season
48:23and talk to them in the offseason?
48:25So it's still got to come back to being meaningful and and getting the right messages to the right fans
48:32in the right way.
48:33That's a different way to look at it. You know, in the old days, there were two seasons in Australia,
48:36footy and cricket.
48:37And but when you look at the biggest brands in the world, Kim Kardashian, she's three, six, five.
48:42And even here where I'm in New York, you know, you go to the gym and on the TV, the
48:46NFL is on every day.
48:47Every day there is NFL content every single day. The season goes for four months, but the content goes for
48:5312.
48:54OK, my last question. So you've been behind the desk now for about four or five months.
49:00They're at tradable bits. What's your big goal for the next two years?
49:04What do you want to get done in the APAC region for this Goliath of sports tech tradable bits?
49:11So the long term vision for me and for us is to is to continue to work hard with our
49:17existing leagues and clients and serve up new solutions to to be at the make sure they're at the forefront
49:25of what's happening in around data.
49:26So use our global network to inform, to educate, to learn from what's happening in different markets and share that
49:34to to look at sort of crossover around what we're doing in music and how that can relate to sport
49:40and vice versa.
49:42But ultimately, the vision for us is the same. We want to get to a point where we're making it
49:48easy for sports and leagues to connect with their fans.
49:51And we think we can do that through unifying that into a system that enables a single minded view of
50:01a fan profile.
50:02How does that system help capture, enrich and activate that data?
50:08How do we reduce dependency on fragmented tools and systems over time?
50:13That doesn't mean we're going to replace them, but how do we join them and bring them together and how
50:19do we provide smarter, more efficient ways of marketing, of looking at sponsorship and partnerships and make sure that we're
50:29easy to work with.
50:30We are open. We're asking questions and we're curious.
50:34And really, we're here and the team behind the team, so the smart people back at HQ who are really
50:42at the sort of the coalface of building these frameworks and building this architecture and talking a language which is
50:49way above my pay grade, is how do we solve problems?
50:52And how do we make the fan experience as good as possible for as many people as possible across as
50:59many sports or music or events or communities activities as we can?
51:06Mike, I know with you leading the charge, APEC's greatest ever time for Tradable Bits is in the next couple
51:11of years.
51:12Congratulations to you on all that you've done and all you're going to do.
51:15I encourage everyone to jump on tradablebits.com, tradablebits.com, or even just slide into Mike's DMs on LinkedIn, Mike
51:24Morris on LinkedIn.
51:26I reckon Mike's got the solution for you.
51:28Thank you very much, Mike.
51:29I appreciate your time.
51:30Wonderful to see you.
51:31Great to talk, Lockie.
51:32See you again soon.
51:34Magnificent stuff.
51:35Mike Morris from Tradable Bits, as I say, tradablebits.com.
51:39That was all.
51:39Thanks to Daily Motion.
51:41Thank you very much, JB and the team.
51:42We'll catch you next time here on Sports Cutting Edge.
52:00We'll catch you next time.
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