- 10 minutes ago
It's Apple's 50th anniversary, and to celebrate, Apple's Greg "Joz" Joswiak, Senior Vice President Worldwide Marketing and John Ternus, Senior Vice President Hardware Engineering sat down with Tom's Guide for an exclusive interview.
What can you expect?
Thoughtful reflections on Apple's origins and the pivotal products that brought the Cupertino company where it is today.
A deep-dive on MacBook Neo's smash success and how it's a quintessential example of how far Apple has come (plus, what 'Neo' *actually* means.)
Joz's take on the "inevitability" of spatial computing taking another form factor, such as smart glasses, in the product roadmap.
John Ternus' stance on how Apple is faring in the AI race.
How the "humanity" core to Apple's last 50 years will remain the definition for the next 50.
This interview aligns with introducing you all to the new Tom's Guide. Not only will we see some updated branding across our channels, but we've doubled down on our dedication to upgrading lives one smart buying decision, tech tip and industry insight at a time. If you haven't subscribed yet, now is the perfect time.
What can you expect?
Thoughtful reflections on Apple's origins and the pivotal products that brought the Cupertino company where it is today.
A deep-dive on MacBook Neo's smash success and how it's a quintessential example of how far Apple has come (plus, what 'Neo' *actually* means.)
Joz's take on the "inevitability" of spatial computing taking another form factor, such as smart glasses, in the product roadmap.
John Ternus' stance on how Apple is faring in the AI race.
How the "humanity" core to Apple's last 50 years will remain the definition for the next 50.
This interview aligns with introducing you all to the new Tom's Guide. Not only will we see some updated branding across our channels, but we've doubled down on our dedication to upgrading lives one smart buying decision, tech tip and industry insight at a time. If you haven't subscribed yet, now is the perfect time.
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TechTranscript
00:00Apple is celebrating its 50th anniversary this month, and to celebrate and to kick off Tom's Guide's relaunch,
00:06we wanted to bring in two very special guests in Jaws and John Ternus to talk about Apple's past, present,
00:12and maybe future in terms of some of their products.
00:14So let's start with, and I did say maybe, I did say maybe, right?
00:20So let's start with one phrase that comes to mind, just because it's coming up in a lot of places,
00:25is think different, right?
00:27So if there's one product over the last 50 years, maybe something that you worked on in particular, what product
00:33would that be?
00:34And then I had a follow-up on the MacBook Neo, but for both of you, what is the product
00:38that embodies that think different mentality?
00:40Well, again, you know me, Mark.
00:44Mac is what brought me here.
00:46iPod changed the trajectory of the company, and iPhone changed the world.
00:50So I'm going to have to give you three products.
00:54My answer is even worse, because it's, look, everything we do, even if our customers and users don't necessarily see
01:03it,
01:03everything we do has some new ideas in it, has new materials, new electrical design, silicon design, any of those
01:11things.
01:11And to me, creativity and invention is fundamentally an act of thinking different, right?
01:17And so we feel like we're doing it all the time, because we're always trying to push and make the
01:21products better.
01:21So I can't point to one product, because I feel like it's in all of the products.
01:26Okay, that's a good non-answer.
01:30So just getting to the MacBook Neo itself, I think you could make the case that it is a full
01:35-circle moment for the brand.
01:37So what would you sort of trace back to those early days in the garage, and how does it potentially
01:43bring the Mac itself full-circle after these 50 years?
01:46Well, for me, maybe I'll start.
01:51I joined in 86, right?
01:54So I joined after the garage.
01:55Apple had just about 10 years old.
02:01And then Apple went off the rails for a little bit, right?
02:04So I like to tell people that even though I started in 86, what happened before 97 really kind of
02:10doesn't count for me.
02:11So I'll start at 97, which is, you know, we were a company almost out of business, right?
02:18Literally.
02:18And Steve came back and think different was more than just a marketing slogan, right?
02:30He had to explain to the world, why did Apple need to exist?
02:37We were 3% market share, struggling to stay in business.
02:43Windows PCs dominated.
02:47And by the way, he had explained to us, Apple employees, why did we need to be here?
02:52Why didn't we need to exist?
02:54And the reality was that the PC industry was not exactly innovative in those days, right?
03:02It was all a matter of how do you cut a nickel here, a quarter here, a dollar here in
03:07order to make the cheapest beige box you could.
03:10Because that's what they were all competing against.
03:13And Steve wanted the world to know that Apple, us to know, Apple needed to exist because somebody had to
03:21have the courage to think different.
03:24Someone had the courage to do different things.
03:29And, Mark, I mean, how prophetic that was in 1997 and to see what that thinking turned into, obviously starting
03:38originally with the iMac, the Bondi Blue iMac that shattered what people thought of as far as PCs were going.
03:46So, you know, iPod and iTunes, which revolutionized the music industry, iPhone and the App Store, which changed the world,
03:56changed all of our daily lives.
03:58iPad, you know, a magical sheet of glass that redefined a category.
04:03You know, Apple Watch, our daily companion that, you know, for your fitness, your health, keeping you connected at just
04:09a glance.
04:10AirPods, AirPods, changed the way that people listen to music and cut the cords, you know, from a wireless device
04:17that why should you have a cord and a magical pairing?
04:20And, of course, you know, Apple Vision Pro, which reached into the future to show us how the digital world
04:25and the physical world could be combined.
04:27And incredible services, you know, Apple Pay and, you know, iCloud and Apple TV, you know.
04:35And then leading all the way to what you said, you know, you know, I think the MacBook Neo is
04:40a great embodiment of that because it completely rethought, thought different, right?
04:45When John and his team as to how do you do a lower priced but incredibly high value laptop.
04:52And so it's perfectly in keeping with, again, this think different idea of this company that was almost out of
05:00business.
05:00So to me, that's what it means to me.
05:03Yeah, and I think maybe another one from our past is this idea that Steve talked about as the Mac
05:08being the bicycle for the mind, right?
05:10And, you know, from the very beginning, the vision was let's make personal computing accessible to as many people as
05:17possible.
05:18And that was the mission of the MacBook Neo, right?
05:21And I think probably, you know, I wasn't here back then, but very much back in the very beginning, you
05:25had a team of people who were so excited to make this happen and to bring the Mac experience to
05:31so many more people.
05:32And that was the kind of driving goal every single day for the MacBook Neo team.
05:36And I think they did an amazing job at it.
05:39Yeah, well, John's been very humble.
05:40He was a big part of that.
05:42But what's unique about it is that, like, traditionally, Apple has been known for making premium products.
05:48Like in this particular case, you were targeting a particular price point, but also not willing to compromise in terms
05:54of like the overall quality of it.
05:55But it was a different sort of endeavor.
05:58Can you maybe just talk about that a little bit?
06:00Yeah.
06:00I mean, I think for us, as I'm sure you know well, like we never want to ship junk, right?
06:05We want to ship great products that have that Apple experience, have that Apple quality.
06:10And to do that with the Neo required building something completely new from the ground up, right?
06:15Leveraging both the technologies we've been developing, like Apple Silicon, but also kind of the expertise that we've developed over
06:22many, many years of building Macs and building phones and building iPads and all of these things.
06:27And so there's so much new in the MacBook Neo, right?
06:29We have a completely new trackpad design that is, I think, still better than any PC out there, but it's
06:35like, it's absolutely amazing and it's completely brand new.
06:39We had a way to rethink how we made the enclosure, how, you know, how it all came together.
06:44And by doing that and being very focused at it from the beginning, we were able to create something that
06:48I think, and I think the feedback has been amazing, which is people can't believe how, you know, what a
06:54high quality the product still holds.
06:56The bar, we didn't lower the bar, right? We still made an amazing high quality Mac at this incredible price
07:02point.
07:03Yeah, I think what you've done is actually make the competition start to scramble.
07:07I've read that.
07:10So when you still, when you make a product like this, you do have to make some trade-offs, right?
07:15So like there isn't a backlit keyboard, for example, or maybe you're using USB 3 and 2 as opposed to
07:21Thunderbolt.
07:21So how do you decide what the right trade-offs are to make, especially for the target audience?
07:27Yeah, I think from the very beginning, the goal when we started was what makes a Mac a Mac, right?
07:33What is the, what are the essential components of a Mac?
07:35And it's a great display and it's great, a great keyboard and trackpad and incredible battery life.
07:40And let's focus on those things.
07:42The beauty is we have MacBook Air, we have MacBook Pro.
07:45So if a customer needs more, if they need the ultimate performance, there's an amazing MacBook Pro that we just
07:50launched, right?
07:51They can go to the MacBook Air and get more battery life and other things.
07:54So we didn't feel like we had to, you know, make compromises that we didn't like.
07:59We were able to build something that was truly the essence of a Mac.
08:02And if people want more, we have that as well.
08:04Well, and the quality of build and the quality of design and construction, you know, you pick up the MacBook
08:10Neo and right away you feel the quality, right?
08:14You feel how amazing this product is.
08:17And Mark, you know, the products in this space that it's competing against, they're plastic, they're literally, you can flex
08:23them.
08:23They're so cheap because what have they done?
08:25They just tried to, again, cut a nickel, cut a quarter, cut a dollar out of everything to try to
08:30make it cheaper.
08:31And as a result, they made it cheap, right?
08:33Which is very different than making it a lower price and a high value, which was the approach we were
08:38taking.
08:39Yeah, I would say the display in particular definitely stands out in terms of the quality, the build quality itself
08:46and the fact that there's no bloatware.
08:49Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, not enough.
08:51Yeah, because that's right.
08:51I failed to mention that point.
08:53What makes a Mac?
08:54Mac OS makes a Mac, right?
08:55They get all of those things together.
08:56And the Mac OS experience on MacBook Neo is just as great as the Mac OS experience on a MacBook
09:02Air or MacBook Pro, right?
09:03It is a true Mac.
09:05But why, but one thing that comes to mind, though, is like, why Neo?
09:09A lot of people were saying, okay, so maybe we're going to get an SE because that usually connotes value
09:13across the different lines.
09:14So, but you went in a different direction with this with an entirely new name.
09:18So, so why Neo?
09:19Yeah, I mean, look, you could even make an argument, did it, should you just call it MacBook?
09:24You know, that's what some people were expecting or we were working on this.
09:27And first of all, to do that would have left it without an identity.
09:30So we did want to give it an identity and we wanted something short and snappy, something that fit in
09:37with Air and Pro.
09:39But we also wanted something to convey its newness.
09:42And Neo literally means new, right, or reinvention.
09:46And as we talked about, this is the reinvention, you know, of a laptop, a low price, high value laptop.
09:52So to us, Neo was the perfect name for it.
09:55And it's really nice because a lot of times names take a little while for people to get used to.
09:58This one, like right away, people are like, oh, I like it, you know, so we're very happy with that.
10:03Cool.
10:04So what about, you know, now that this product is out there, one of the comments that we got on
10:09our first round of videos.
10:10Oh, so it's just an iPad with a keyboard, which I thought completely missed the point.
10:15It's too early in the morning for that, Mark.
10:18At the same time, you know, iPadOS is becoming more Mac-like with some of the changes that you've made
10:23in terms of multitasking and how you open and close apps and that sort of thing.
10:28The lines are starting to blur, but in your mind, are they still very much distinct or are the lines
10:35blurring somewhat?
10:36Like where do you guys like stand on that?
10:40I mean, they're different products, right?
10:42We love the iPad.
10:44We love the Mac.
10:45We love the iPhone.
10:46We love all of our products.
10:47But I think what we always do is we're always focused on how do we make a given product better?
10:52What are we doing next?
10:53What are we doing after that?
10:54We're always pushing.
10:55And we never think about, like, well, what impact if we did something here would it have on a product
11:00over here?
11:01Like we're going to make the best iPad we can possibly make.
11:03We're going to make the best Mac we can possibly make.
11:05And some customers are going to choose one.
11:07Some customers are going to choose the other.
11:09A lot of customers actually like to have both.
11:11And that's great, too.
11:12So, yeah, we never think about there's never there's never been this idea of mashing these two things together.
11:18There's this narrative outside that there is, but that's never been the case.
11:21Yeah.
11:21I mean, and right from the very beginning, you know, there was obviously obviously some overlap.
11:26I mean, that was the case when we introduced it.
11:28But like John said, we look, we want to make our Macs the best personal computer we could we can
11:33be.
11:33We want to make, you know, the iPad this, you know, magical sheet of glass.
11:37It makes it the best that it can be.
11:41And think about you.
11:43I'm not going to speak for you.
11:44I'm going to guess you might have both.
11:46You know, so many of our customers do.
11:48Well, think about that.
11:50So you're even choosing that you're not converging them.
11:52It's not one, right?
11:53You're choosing.
11:54Now, sometimes the iPad's better for this and the Mac's better for this.
11:57It's good to have them both.
11:58And we love that.
12:01Okay.
12:02Yeah, that makes sense.
12:03So I guess if the MacBook Pro had a touch display, that does not mean, I know that's saying that
12:10you're working on that.
12:11But if it did have one, that doesn't mean that you're going back on your word that the product lines
12:15are distinct because you would just be making one thing better for that target audience.
12:19Is that fair to say?
12:20Well, fortunately, we don't have that product.
12:22So I don't even know how I would answer that, Mark.
12:26So what about, I mean, you brought up earlier about like how Vision Pro was a sneak peek at the
12:32future.
12:32I just wanted to get your guys' opinion on the state of spatial computing overall, just because I think a
12:36lot of people were talking about smart glasses as being like the next wave of computing.
12:41Obviously, you have Meta out there, Gemini glasses are coming, et cetera.
12:45You already have a spatial computing product out there.
12:48And I'm sure Vision OS wasn't created for just one device.
12:51You've already had a follow-up, for example.
12:53So what do you think of that, not talking about your future product plans, but what do you guys think
12:57about that product category in general?
13:01You know, look, I think we're still very much in the early innings of spatial computing.
13:05We are super excited about it.
13:07I mean, the Vision Pro is an extraordinary product.
13:10As Jos said, it's like we reached into the future and pulled it into the present.
13:14And it's continuing to, like, people are continuing to find exciting new use cases for it.
13:19There's a lot of compelling stuff in enterprise and medicine and other things, and that's going to continue to grow.
13:24It's fun.
13:25We're at the beginning of the journey.
13:28Yeah.
13:29Jos, how about for you?
13:30What do you think of the product category itself?
13:31There's some inevitability to combining digital and physical world.
13:36That's what spatial computing was all about.
13:38And as John just said, and as we've said, right, we're reaching into the future with a product called the
13:43Vision Pro.
13:44Can't give you a timeline for, you know, when spatial becomes, you know, anything else.
13:49But, you know, it's an inevitability, right, of digital and physical worlds coming together.
13:54Yeah.
13:55I mean, I'll give you guys a quick example.
13:56So I think when you launched widgets, like the widgets that you could, like, sort of pin into your room,
14:01one of the first things that I did is, like, I put up a picture that I, like, just really
14:04liked.
14:05So just imagine, like, walking into your kitchen each day, and you decide what you want to see,
14:09especially if it's gloomy out, for example.
14:11Yeah, I mean, there's countless examples, right, of where a digital element can augment the physical world
14:17and quite honestly, vice versa.
14:19And some amazing experiences.
14:20The work we've been doing with the NBA with the, you know, streaming the games onto Vision Pro
14:26and an immersive video is just mind-blowing.
14:29It's a completely different experience to be, like, wow, I'm actually at this game,
14:32and people have been super excited about that.
14:34So, again, we keep pushing and finding these new experiences and opportunities,
14:37and, yeah, I'm excited for the future of it.
14:40Cool.
14:41Just along those lines, in terms of, like, straddling, like, the present and future,
14:45obviously, AI is a big part of what you guys have been doing for a while.
14:48Even before it was called AI popularly, it was machine learning, right?
14:52So that's sort of been in your DNA for a bit now.
14:54Well, we originally called it proactive, if you remember, Mark.
14:57We didn't even use machine learning or AI.
15:00We talked about how your devices could be proactive because they were learning these things.
15:05That was not my biggest marketing genius moves, but we had a name.
15:10So, at the same time, I feel like AI is at a crossroads at the moment.
15:14I feel like you have just as many people who are passionate about AI
15:18and how it helps them on a daily basis, especially in terms of productivity,
15:21but then you also have a lot of people who are skeptical
15:23or maybe even afraid of what happens if it goes rogue and that sort of thing.
15:26So now that we're, like, at least, like, a few years into, like, at least ChatGPT era and beyond,
15:33has your thinking changed about AI and what people want out of it
15:37when it comes to your own products?
15:39Well, first of all, I'm not sure I'd use crossroads, right?
15:42I would use early innings.
15:44I mean, this is still very early days in what is going on with intelligence.
15:48And, you know, you've heard us give some of our thinking on it, right?
15:53We want to use intelligence, meet the customers where they are
15:58to make our products and our features better.
16:01And, by the way, we've been doing that with intelligence for many years, right?
16:05And Gen AI allows us an opportunity to do that even more, you know?
16:09So I'm excited about that.
16:10But, boy, this is not a sprint.
16:13This is a marathon, right?
16:15We're going to be doing stuff with intelligence for decades, not for months or years.
16:21Yeah, and I think, you know, we never think about shipping a technology.
16:25We always think about how can we leverage technology to ship amazing products
16:29and features and experiences for our users.
16:31And so that's how we think about AI is, you know,
16:35and you've already seen plenty of it, like, happening in different places,
16:38live translation on AirPods and other things.
16:40It's like we're taking the technology and leveraging it into really meaningful experiences.
16:44And that's how we think about approaching it.
16:48Yeah, I feel like we're, maybe what I meant by crossroads is, like,
16:51I feel like people are excited by the technologies,
16:53but they might not be quite at the point where they're using AI
16:56as the decision factor for buying a product or maybe not buying it.
17:00But we may get to a point where something is so exciting as a feature
17:03in terms of making your life better that it does become a tipping point.
17:06Do you guys see that on the horizon?
17:08Or do you feel like because we're in early innings, we're not quite there yet?
17:11Well, I like what JT said because it is about these experiences,
17:17not about the technology itself, right?
17:19And, again, we see it as a way to make our products and our features better.
17:25I love it when those things are happening
17:27and somebody doesn't even necessarily know that it's AI, right?
17:31It's just better.
17:33And that's what I think the world expects from us, right?
17:35We make things personal.
17:37We bring humanity to things.
17:39We make it so that you don't have to be a chatbot expert
17:44in order to get the most out of that technology.
17:47We want the technology to come to you, right,
17:49and just make those experiences that you live through every day better,
17:53whether you know you're using AI or not.
17:56Yeah, an example of that might be,
17:57and I know it's not technically AI,
17:59but if I'm getting to the bus stop in the morning,
18:01if I swipe down, the first thing that I see is the transit app.
18:05Like, it knows where I am, it knows what the time of day is.
18:07That's exactly right.
18:08It knows your habits, it knows.
18:10I love that.
18:11I mean, that's a great example.
18:12That was one of the, quote, proactives, right,
18:15that we introduced maybe, gosh, more than 10 years ago,
18:17which was the idea that it had a pretty good idea
18:19what app you needed to use next.
18:21It wasn't just random, right?
18:23You pulled down, as you said, from the screen,
18:24and it took a bunch of things that it knew
18:28about what was going on right now,
18:30what your habits were,
18:31and had a pretty good shot of offering you up the right app.
18:36And as Siri gets smarter,
18:37like some people are saying,
18:38okay, it could be the, quote, unquote, death of apps
18:40because it could control apps for you and get things done.
18:44I'm assuming that you assume
18:45that there'll be more of a symbiosis going forward
18:47as opposed to one winning out over the other.
18:49Like, what do you guys think about that?
18:51Well, the App Store is alive and well,
18:53I can tell you that.
18:54We are getting lots of great submissions
18:56and lots of great apps,
18:58and intelligence is certainly part of those apps.
19:02So, you know, I think the rumors of its death
19:06may have been greatly exaggerated.
19:11And, yeah, so I guess, John, from your perspective,
19:13as you look at, like, sort of, like,
19:15the hardware landscape right now,
19:16obviously, Neo is, like, the latest and greatest
19:18that you've done,
19:20but, like, do you feel like there's anything
19:21that you can learn from that
19:23as you, like, move forward?
19:25Because there always seems to be, like,
19:26a trickle-down effect,
19:27not even, like, in a product line,
19:29but across product lines.
19:30Yeah, I mean, we are always
19:32kind of building upon
19:35what we've done in the past.
19:36You can see our whole product lines
19:37have been that way, right?
19:38I mean, the iPhone was born out of
19:41what we've learned on the Mac and the iPod, right?
19:43The iPad was clearly, like,
19:45built out of what we learned on the phone.
19:47But also, in terms of how we build our products,
19:49we're doing that all the time.
19:50And so, you're right.
19:51You see things pop up in different places
19:53as we develop, you know,
19:55a new technology
19:55or we start working with a new material
19:57or things like that.
19:58And, yeah, and then Neo,
20:00you know, there's so much good new stuff.
20:02It's certainly going to influence
20:03how we look at other products
20:05and how we can take kind of core technologies
20:07and pieces to make them better as well.
20:09Great. So just to wrap up,
20:11I would just say, like,
20:12love to get your thoughts on
20:14what the 50th anniversary means to you
20:16and maybe share, like,
20:18a very quick anecdote
20:19of, like, your favorite story
20:21being at Apple during that time.
20:24Well, look, again,
20:25I've been here for 40 of the 50,
20:29which is kind of nuts.
20:31So I have more stories
20:33than you have time, Mark.
20:34But if you ever want to grab a beer
20:36or a glass of wine,
20:37I'll make you cry, Uncle,
20:39at some point.
20:41I have so much.
20:42But I obviously
20:44during this very rare time
20:45for us to be reflective,
20:46because as we talked about,
20:48we're way more forward looking
20:50than we are backward looking.
20:52But this is kind of a special week
20:53and a special lead up to this.
20:55So we are reflective.
20:56And I can't help
20:59but think of
21:00when Steve returned to the company
21:02and our very first meeting
21:04with Steve,
21:04because here again,
21:05we were struggling
21:06to say the least
21:07at that point.
21:09And we
21:10we had the meeting
21:12with the leaders
21:12in product marketing
21:13and leaders in engineering.
21:15Our first meeting with them
21:16and I was working for Phil
21:18at the time, Phil Schiller.
21:19And, you know,
21:21we weren't quite sure
21:22how to start the meeting.
21:23And Phil says,
21:24hey, do you
21:24you want to show you
21:25our product roadmaps,
21:26which are, you know,
21:27our plans for the product
21:28for the next couple of years.
21:29And Steve stops
21:31and he says,
21:31no,
21:33let's talk about
21:33where we're going.
21:35Because if we don't know
21:36where we're going,
21:37no map's going to get us there.
21:39And we started
21:40to retrench our thinking
21:42and him reminding us
21:43that great companies fail
21:45because they forget
21:46about creating great products.
21:49And that we were going
21:50to put the product
21:52back at the focus
21:53of everything
21:54that we do.
21:55Right.
21:56And with this naive belief
21:59that if you create
22:00great products,
22:01there'll be a market
22:02for that.
22:03And again,
22:05first of all,
22:06our heads were like,
22:07wow,
22:08we'd never had a CEO
22:09who was telling us that,
22:10that we were going
22:10to talk about
22:11where we're going
22:12and how the products
22:12were going to be
22:13getting us there
22:14and where we,
22:15you know,
22:15how we were going
22:16to transform this business.
22:18And, you know,
22:19talk about having us
22:19that hello.
22:21and then to see,
22:22as I went through earlier,
22:23to see all the different
22:25places that that thinking
22:26took us,
22:27you know,
22:27and where we are today
22:28is, you know,
22:30it's been an incredible journey.
22:31I feel incredibly blessed
22:33to have spent
22:34the last 40 years
22:35of my life here.
22:36And what's more exciting
22:37is all the great stuff
22:39we have in front of us
22:40because we are working
22:41on some pretty cool stuff,
22:43Mark.
22:43But I think that's
22:44what you wanted
22:44to hear from us,
22:45but we're not telling you
22:45about that.
22:48Well, I did like
22:49the inevitable part.
22:50I mean, you know,
22:51it tells me something.
22:53So, John,
22:54how about for you?
22:56How would you sum up
22:57the 50-year anniversary
22:58and then just like
22:59your favorite moment
23:00from your time at Apple?
23:02You know,
23:03I think it's been really fun.
23:05You know, again,
23:06we talked about this
23:06sort of odd sense of,
23:08okay, we're going to spend
23:08a little time looking back.
23:09Not a lot
23:10because we've got lots to do.
23:11But to me,
23:12there's this recognition
23:13and, you know,
23:15hearing a lot of the old stories
23:16and stuff like that
23:16that we really today,
23:18the team here at Apple
23:19stands on the shoulders
23:20of giants, right?
23:21I mean,
23:21and as I said before,
23:22so much,
23:23everything we do
23:24is built on
23:25what came before,
23:26what we've done before.
23:28And that makes me
23:29so excited for the future
23:30because I see where we are now
23:31and I just know
23:32things are going to keep
23:33getting better and better.
23:35I think, you know,
23:36one of my favorite stories
23:37and it actually was a,
23:40you've probably heard it before,
23:41it was about Steve
23:42when he was moving
23:43a piece of furniture,
23:44a chest of drawers
23:45and pulled it away
23:48from the wall
23:48and looked at the back
23:49and was just reflecting on,
23:51you know,
23:51that the Carpenter
23:52had made it,
23:53had made it beautiful.
23:54It finished the back
23:55as beautifully
23:56as the rest of it,
23:57even though nobody
23:58was going to see it, right?
23:59And I think about that
24:00all the time
24:01because I think
24:01that perfectly exemplifies
24:03what we do here, right?
24:05And, you know,
24:05we've been talking
24:05about the MacBook Neo.
24:07I mean,
24:07here is our most affordable
24:09Mac we've ever made
24:10and it's absolutely beautiful
24:12and if you open it up
24:13and look inside,
24:14it's just as beautiful, right?
24:16And that's true
24:16on an iPhone Pro Max
24:19or a MacBook Pro
24:20or an iPad Pro
24:21but it's also true
24:21on a MacBook Neo.
24:22That's what we do
24:23and so
24:25it's just been really good
24:26to kind of think about that
24:27and reflect on that
24:28because that
24:28is probably the best
24:30kind of clue
24:31as to where we're going
24:32in the future
24:33is we're going to keep
24:33pushing in that same way.
24:35Yeah, I love that.
24:36So that's why
24:37the bottom of the MacBook Neo
24:38has the color-matching feet.
24:40It's all a part of it.
24:41It's just every day.
24:43Details, exactly.
24:45All right, cool.
24:45Well, thank you so much
24:46to both of you,
24:47Jaws and John Ternus
24:48for your time today.
24:49Thanks, Mark.
24:50Thank you, Mark.
24:51And for you out there,
24:52if you really liked
24:53what you saw today
24:54and want to see
24:54more interviews from us,
24:55make sure you like
24:56and subscribe.
24:57For Tom's Guide,
24:58this is Mark Spoonhour.
25:10I'll see you next time.
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