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00:00It's kind of funny, the kind of serendipity here. We were talking with Mark just before you and he happened
00:04to kind of bring up, you know, some of the deals that he's worked with and, you know, the idea
00:07of, you know, the timers and F1 and, you know, the grow lights for the pitches and things like that.
00:12I mean, you've kind of made a business in sports, but not investing in sports teams, but kind of investing
00:18in the technology and kind of, I guess, infrastructure, for lack of a better word, that they need.
00:21Exactly. We call it second level enablers. We are investing in the companies that are the backbone and power the
00:28sports industry.
00:28So tech, content enablers, services, and wide ranging of things. It could be virtual technology. It could be lighting fixtures
00:36that light the grass or pitch all around the world.
00:38So there's a whole industry. And so when the NBA sells its rights for $75 billion, you know, we win
00:45because our services are more important.
00:47When the NFL is going to increase its rights fees from 30 to 50 percent, we win. So we're the
00:52backbone. We're powering the growth in the business.
00:55You've done a lot of deals over the years. And I am curious, too, about just the evolution of where
01:00we go with sports.
01:01I mean, we talk about this idea of obviously much more global as a business, I should say, much more
01:06global here.
01:07Did you ever sort of think, OK, I want to actually be invested in the teams themselves or are you
01:12perfectly comfortably being where you are?
01:13We have two different investments. Teams have uncertain liquidity. They typically don't generate cash.
01:19And I love American football, but I'm not going to add value to the New York Giants.
01:22So we invest in companies that have high cash flow, that have certain liquidity, and that you can really drive
01:28and add value.
01:29So that's kind of our niche. Now, we're very international. So, you know, we're 75 percent of our invested capitals
01:34outside the United States.
01:35And what you see through technology is that sports are being globalized. You know, you're going to have the World
01:40Cup this summer, the Olympics.
01:41But you see the NFL going to Europe, going all over the world, NBA going to Europe, maybe someday Asia.
01:46So sports through technology is far more global than it used to be, you know, years ago.
01:51Well, as Romain mentioned, obviously, you're a pioneer when it comes to commercializing sports investing.
01:56But a lot of that conversation is around investing in the teams themselves, in the leagues themselves.
02:01Private equity certainly has woken up to that fact.
02:05But I wonder, you know, whether you see folks following you basically into the enablers that you talk about, sort
02:11of the second tier there.
02:12Yeah, we haven't. We've never competed with the same company twice.
02:15One of the things we have is that we're so international, it's a little bit hard to replicate the footprint.
02:20But you do see there are so many people investing in sports.
02:24And, you know, when you take a step back, why is that?
02:27Nothing brings together millions and millions of people, in some cases billions, like sports.
02:30You have a highly engaged audience.
02:32And if you think about entertainment, it's been commoditized by all the streamers, right?
02:37Entertainment's a little less important.
02:39There's not that show.
02:40You watch it for a period of time, but not like you used to.
02:42And lastly, you know, I was out here at Milken watching some of the panels.
02:46You know, sports, AI enables sports.
02:49It won't disrupt it.
02:50So if you're looking to invest in something that's safe and reliable, sports is that investment.
02:54Yeah, I have to imagine in some way AI enhances the experience or has the potential to the experience of
03:02viewing live sports.
03:03It's not necessarily like people want to watch robots playing sports.
03:06They want to watch people.
03:08So enhances and also, as you say, maybe perhaps you're insulated a little bit.
03:12Yeah, I was watching a panel and I was saying, the safest place to invest is sports because it's not
03:16going to get disrupted by AI.
03:17And as you point, only enhance.
03:19It's going to bring the game closer to people.
03:22Think about this.
03:22For most of our adult life, sports has been B to B to C.
03:26And now sports is going B to C with streamers, but also through new technology.
03:31Well, speaking of streamers, I am curious.
03:32You took a minority stake, what was it, in box-to-box films.
03:35Yes.
03:35And everyone was talking, I mean, let's talk about F1.
03:37I mean, there was obviously Drive to Survive.
03:39A lot of people are saying, crediting this with bringing a lot more awareness, certainly in the U.S., to
03:44open-wheel racing with F1.
03:48Why are you going down that road?
03:49Is this kind of the future where we get more engagement out of the sports fans with these types of
03:54documentaries, unscripted programming that are directly related to the leagues?
03:57Right, things that are sticky, emotional connection.
04:00You know, when streamers are going to love sports because of the advertising, right?
04:03That's the next place for them to go.
04:05So in sports over indexes and advertising, because of the connection and shows like Drive to Survive connect the fans
04:13to their passion.
04:14Yeah.
04:15So yesterday, we actually saw, you know, the head of FIFA did a big panel here.
04:20Soccer balls were being kicked around everywhere.
04:23Everyone's talking about the beginning of the World Cup.
04:25I am curious as to what type of catalyst that is, not only for the interest in the game of
04:29soccer, football, if you will, but also, more importantly, for your business.
04:33Do these types of large events, do they catalyze new investment, new interest?
04:37Absolutely, because you can feel the pull.
04:39So a lot of our businesses this summer are going to have enormous success because of the World Cup.
04:44They'll have enormous success because of the Olympics.
04:46These things just drive interest and awareness.
04:49Even you can see markets, you know, like in Saudi Arabia in 2034, they're going to be hosting the World
04:54Cup.
04:54You can already feel the pull in what I call football, but in America you call it soccer.
04:59You can feel the pull.
05:00You know, we're building production studios.
05:02We're selling players in the Saudi Arabia.
05:05For 2034 already.
05:06Wow.
05:06We're building fields in Saudi Arabia.
05:08So these big events drive enormous economic activity on top of coalescing people together.
05:15Absolutely.
05:16Well, you mentioned, you know, you're building fields in Saudi Arabia.
05:18You're a very international business.
05:20And I do wonder, you know, how you think through geopolitics, the fact that we do have, you know, a
05:25hot war unfolding in the Middle East that has ripple effects for the region.
05:29How have you been approaching that?
05:30Carefully.
05:31Yes.
05:31Go on.
05:32I don't have a silver bullet.
05:34You know, one of the things, you know, I've been doing business internationally for 30, 20 years, and we're in
05:40business in 71 countries.
05:42And so, you know, it's an interesting time being an American-led business.
05:45I think humility is important and goes a long way.
05:48It's kind of how we approach things.
05:50So be careful.
05:51Be humble.
05:52That's good advice in any situation.
05:53Careful and humble.
05:54I think it's good advice for everybody.
05:55There you go.
05:56But talk to us a little bit more from that international perspective.
05:59What markets are you seeing the most growth in?
06:02What are you most excited about here?
06:04Well, you know, really what I see is, like I said, the globalization.
06:07So you see, you know, we're talking about the World Cup and football, European football coming to America, and American
06:13sports going around the world really through technology.
06:16So I think that's the future.
06:17I think also the one-to-one relationship.
06:19Well, I'm a Liverpool fan.
06:21I might be in Los Angeles now.
06:22I can experience Liverpool in ways that I couldn't 25 or 30 years ago.
06:26And so that's direct messaging, other direct-to-consumer products.
06:30It's different types of content.
06:32People are consuming content differently, and those people are able to deliver it.
06:35That's the future.
06:37So I think more international and experiencing your passion point in a way that you couldn't before through technology.
06:42Yeah, we had Manny Roman who had Spimko on during the interview.
06:45He was just paying attention to the Arsenal-Madrid game.
06:47Yeah, yeah.
06:48So there you have it.
06:49We had it up for him on the screen.
06:49We literally had it up for him.
06:51I mean, you know, there's Alabama Crimson Tide or Georgia Bulldogs.
06:55It's the same thing if it's Liverpool or Chelsea.
06:58I do have to ask you about fair play and sports betting, which kind of went from illegal to now
07:04$100-plus-billion-dollar business.
07:06But there's now a lot of disruption there as well.
07:08I mean, we've seen some of the traditional, you know, DraftKings, FanDuel, which just today lost their CEO.
07:16There's a lot of competition in that space right now.
07:18Now you have prediction markets, like how she's trying to, you know, hone their way into that space here.
07:23It's hyper-competitive.
07:24I mean, what are you trying to do?
07:25So we're international, and so we were very fortunate to benefit from being a global company.
07:30America's been a tough market for a lot of people.
07:32First of all, while they have legal gambling, there's still a lot of illegal gambling.
07:37So there's a lot of leakage in the pipes.
07:39And also, as you point out, the prediction markets are now starting to take share.
07:43So it's a tough, it's a tough, it's been a lot more difficult, I think, than people realize.
07:49But as a business, I understand it's tough.
07:51There are a lot of people that also credit the legal gambling, the growth of legal gambling, as driving a
07:57lot more engagement to some of these leagues.
08:00And I do wonder, is that kind of your vision when you bought OddsChecker, Fair Play, or whatever we're calling
08:06it now, was that kind of your vision with it?
08:08Or was there something different?
08:08Well, you were trying to go for the hardcore fan, right?
08:10So if you bet on a game, you're 19 more times likely to watch it.
08:14So you're trying to connect brands to these hardcore consumers.
08:19That was kind of the vision behind it.
08:20But the U.S. market's been challenging.
08:23The rest of the world, ironically for us, we were having enormous success in the United Kingdom and Spain and
08:28Italy.
08:29But the U.S. has been a challenging market.
08:31There was a lot of competition.
08:33It's nascent.
08:34You have taxation.
08:34You have illegal gambling.
08:36Now you have prediction markets.
08:37It's a lot more challenging than it looks at on the surface.
08:40When you look at, though, just how some of the lines are getting blurred between all of these things,
08:45where we talk about entertainment with, you know, obviously the unscripted programs like Drive to Survive,
08:50which are now becoming scripted programs in some of those cases, sports betting,
08:53and then the actual games or matches themselves here.
08:56Is this becoming a much broader ecosystem?
08:59100%.
08:59I mean, so I have two boys in their 20s.
09:01I mean, if you know a young man, they're all betting, right?
09:04They're betting on the UFC.
09:05They're betting on this.
09:06They're betting on that.
09:07So it is part of the way certain people grow up.
09:09And it's connecting the consumer, again, B to C versus when I grew up, it was B to D to
09:16C, right?
09:17B to B to C, sorry.
09:18B to B to C, and now it's B to C with a whole array of products coming at you
09:22from all different directions.
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