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00:00Administrator Isaacman, thanks so much for joining us. How are you?
00:03I'm doing great. It's great to be here.
00:04It's good to have you here. Congratulations on the Artemis II mission.
00:08It certainly, I think, for a lot of people and for NASA marked a new generation or a new moment
00:12in space exploration
00:13in terms of the nature of the flight, the partnerships that made it possible.
00:17So can you explain why you're reprioritizing the moon for people who might be skeptical of why we should do
00:23that?
00:23Well, I would say that I'm not reprioritizing at all.
00:26What I'm doing is working with all the talented minds at NASA to ensure our plan to achieve the policy
00:34that's essentially been in place since President Trump's first term, when he created the Artemis program, is actually possible.
00:40So 35 years, every president has called for a return to the moon.
00:44It sounds great. Certainly, I think, gets the public riled up.
00:48It wasn't until President Trump's first term, when he actually created the Artemis program, that put focus back on it
00:53again.
00:53And then my first day on the job, the day I was sworn into office, he put out a national
00:57space policy that said,
00:59don't just return to the moon. Do so to stay. Build an enduring presence. Build a moon base on the
01:05surface.
01:05What would establishing bases on the moon allow us to do?
01:08So that's a great question.
01:10For 25 years, we have maintained a continuous human presence in low Earth orbit at the International Space Station,
01:16which people probably don't realize, but if you take a step back and think about it,
01:20if you're 25 years old or younger, you haven't lived during a time where there wasn't an American astronaut in
01:26orbit above you,
01:27which is pretty cool to think about because the environment is incredibly harsh.
01:31You have a radiation environment. You have micrometeoid orbital debris.
01:34Those are like billions of bullets just whizzing around, tear through everything up there.
01:39You know, the human body, human physiology does not like microgravity, so you have bone density loss, cardiovascular issues.
01:47We just did the first medical evacuation from the space station.
01:51So things happen there, but we have been learning.
01:54And where do you apply that next?
01:56You take it from low Earth orbit, which is probably the safest place you can be in an incredibly threatening
02:01environment,
02:01and you bring it down to the lunar surface.
02:03Because for all its scientific potential, I mean, we are going to have so many scientific instruments.
02:08There are kids in college right now working on hardware that's going to be on the moon in the next
02:10couple of years.
02:11Its economic potential?
02:13Are we mining helium-3 on the moon?
02:15Are we 3D printing satellites for AI data centers?
02:18I sure hope so.
02:20And then I would just say it's the technological proving ground to get to Mars.
02:23Well, there's a lot of interest from investors in this.
02:26And I'm curious about the timeline for those things that you mentioned,
02:29because when a lot of people think about the space economy now, they think of something like SpaceX or Starlink
02:34from SpaceX.
02:35But the things that you're talking about seem far off into the future.
02:37Well, I would just say that any time NASA undertakes and attempts to achieve the near impossible, we never go
02:44it alone.
02:44We bring everybody with us because it takes the contributions from across industry and academia and, honestly, international partners.
02:50So, 1960s, we had Boeing, we had Northrop, I mean, Grumman built the lunar lander, we had McDonnell Douglas,
02:58and you still have many of those companies today.
03:00But then you have your new players like your Blue Origins, your SpaceX, Firefly, Intuitive Machines, lots of Rocket Lab,
03:07lots of good commercial companies.
03:09And what I would say is there is a real commercial space economy right now.
03:12I mean, launch observation and communication, NASA's one customer of many.
03:17That's how you know it's real.
03:18Lots of customers, lots of demand there.
03:21We're going to put a huge demand signal out for building a moon base, 30 landers, dozens of rovers.
03:26I can't tell you who's buying the 31st.
03:28I can't tell you who's buying the next rover after NASA at that point.
03:31So, we are still that first customer.
03:33But it's a heck of a demand signal in the right direction to ideally spark what becomes a lunar economy.
03:39So, let's talk a little bit about geopolitics because in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, NASA's greatest competitor was the
03:46Soviet Union.
03:46Today, that really seems to have shifted to China.
03:49From your view, how advanced are Beijing's programs?
03:53I think we fool ourselves at times when we refer to the Chinese in various technological domains and call them
04:00a near peer.
04:01The reality is, in many cases, they are a peer.
04:04And I would say, with respect to their space program, and it's hard because they're not as transparent as we
04:10are.
04:10We have our civil space agency, which is NASA, and then we have our Space Force.
04:16And their job is to look out for the national security interests of the ultimate high ground that is space.
04:21In China, they don't draw a distinction.
04:24But what I will tell you, in both of those categories, so their civil space program and on their military
04:30side,
04:30their national security capabilities in space, it's extremely impressive.
04:36Extremely impressive.
04:37They are moving very, very fast.
04:40And what you think you know about what they're capable of doing in that domain from six months ago,
04:45they've already surpassed that by a couple generations.
04:47I mean, in a lot of ways, they are moving at SpaceX speeds.
04:51When we were competing with the Soviet Union, the budget that you had at NASA was roughly 4.5%
04:59of total government expenditures.
05:02Right now, what, a quarter of 1% of government expenditures?
05:06Can you compete with China with that level of funding?
05:10Absolutely.
05:10I mean, the president's budget request is more than every other civil space agency in the world combined.
05:15Now, again, that's kind of hard to nail down perfectly with China because they blurred the lines with their military
05:20spend.
05:21And look, it's different times now.
05:23We knew nothing about the great frontier in the 1960s other than that it was an effort worth undertaking.
05:30And today, between the $10 billion one-time and plus-up that came through the Working Family Tax Credit Act,
05:36plus our budget and our appropriations, yes, we can return to the moon, we can build the moon base,
05:41and we can do the other things because we know a lot more today than we did then.
05:45Industry has evolved quite a bit, but it is an extremely close race.
05:48I say it all the time.
05:49Winning success or failure will come down to months, not years.
05:52Jim Bridenstine, the NASA administrator during President Trump's first term, has said that China is likely going to win.
05:59Is he wrong?
06:00I think he's wrong in that to say they would be advantaged.
06:04As I said, we are close.
06:07We've said we're going to land astronauts on the moon before the end of President Trump's term.
06:11The Chinese have said they will land their technonauts on the moon before 2030.
06:15So that does come down to months, not years, if you look at the time frames.
06:18But we have an achievable plan, and we've been there before.
06:22So we're very advantaged in building the moon base.
06:25We're very advantaged in next giant leap capabilities like nuclear.
06:27When it comes to the boots, yes, it's a closer race, but I have no doubt the best and brightest
06:31at NASA, we're not going to come in second place.
06:34You've got this amazing story.
06:35You come from the private sector.
06:36You built this business in your parents' basement in New Jersey.
06:39You're an entrepreneur.
06:40You're an executive.
06:41You're a pilot, a fighter pilot.
06:43You're an astronaut.
06:44You've moved really quickly in your career.
06:47All this to say, you don't really go at Washington speed.
06:50Do the political extremes that we have slow us down when it comes to competing with the rest of the
06:55world?
06:55Well, I would just say I have one boss now, the President of the United States, and I couldn't have
07:00a better boss.
07:01But to your point, there are a lot of stakeholders that have strong views.
07:06The nice thing is they all love NASA.
07:08So right from the get-go, you go to any of my hearings, whether it's a Democrat or a Republican,
07:13there is strong bipartisan support for NASA's mission.
07:16Now, they all think we should do it differently.
07:18So bringing a lot of people together that have different views and getting them aligned around doing extremely hard things,
07:25I have some experience with that.
07:26And I'll tell you, it is a lot of my time trying to get everybody aligned.
07:31I think having a competitor like China that is moving incredibly fast is helpful at clearing out needless bureaucracy and
07:37delays and things that impede progress, right?
07:40And that's working.
07:42Now, if you don't take an active role, if you are not going, like I said, hard charging with a
07:48strong team 18, 20 hours a day, if that's what it takes, yes, the pace of government moves slowly,
07:54and it's not always aligned in the best interest of the mission, it might be aligned in the best interest
07:58of a congressional district or a particular vendor, but we are fixing that now.
08:02So what have you learned about how to make sure you get what NASA needs?
08:06Well, I think being able to be a good communicator and tell the story, right?
08:11And that is what I've been doing.
08:13You know, to have a conversation with an important congressman, senator, an industry leader, and explain to them, imagine what
08:19it was like when you saw Artemis II going on the far side of the moon,
08:22that special moment, you're sitting with your kid, your grandkid or something, now imagine the same thing when somebody's stepping
08:28foot off a land or on the moon, except it's a Chinese techonaut.
08:31What is that going to do?
08:33What message does that send to the world that says something is broken?
08:36And I tell industry, you know, get aligned right now.
08:39Everything you lobby for better be in the interest of America's national imperative of returning to the moon.
08:45Because if not, if we see the Chinese get to the moon before America is able to return, I'll be
08:50fired.
08:50I'll be at home watching on TV as all of you get hauled before Congress and have to explain where
08:55the $100 billion went.
08:57So think about that every time you work against me versus putting your resources in the correct direction.
09:02How do they respond when you communicate like that?
09:04I think we're moving really fast now.
09:05It's working.
09:06I think we're moving really fast now.
09:07It's working.
09:08I mean, we're adding missions.
09:09We're launching moon rockets now with frequency.
09:11Artemis 3 is up in 2027, and the world is going to be able to follow along in early 2027
09:16as we put robotic landers on the moon nearly monthly and start building that moon base.
09:21So talk a little bit about Artemis 3 because NASA's already working on that.
09:24What does success in that mission look like?
09:26Success in that mission, well, is going to be you're going to see three distinct and the most powerful rockets
09:34in the world launch in quick succession.
09:35So you're going to see SLS, which is what launched Artemis 2.
09:38That will launch.
09:39You will see New Glenn launch, which will put the blue origin lander into low Earth orbit.
09:46And then you're going to see Starship launch, which will put their HLS lunar lander in low Earth orbit.
09:50So three massive launches in quick succession.
09:54And then you're going to see the Orion spacecraft rendezvous and dock with the blue origin lander, test out the
09:58interoperability, detach, rendezvous, dock with the Starship lander, the SpaceX lander in low Earth orbit, test out, you know, the
10:07full stack controllability.
10:08And then it's going to detach, come back and land.
10:10And what that should tell us, it should teach us more about the Orion spacecraft that should build muscle memory
10:15about launching SLS, which is extremely complicated.
10:18Eight point eight million pounds of thrust.
10:19You cannot get that wrong.
10:20And it's going to teach us a lot about our two landers, blue and SpaceX.
10:23That data, no doubt, will result in hardware changes, software updates, procedural changes to permit in 2028 Artemis 4 to
10:34take the astronauts to the surface of the moon.
10:36How would you rate the readiness of SpaceX and blue origin for those missions?
10:42Both blue origin and SpaceX have provided, you know, detailed responses back to NASA on their ability to meet our
10:472027 timeline for a low Earth orbit test of their landers.
10:52They both are enthusiastic about it.
10:53First of all, they both know that this must be done.
10:56And by the way, so did everyone at NASA.
10:59You know, I didn't come in and say, I think we should launch rockets with with greater frequency here and
11:04build muscle memory.
11:05They all wanted to do that.
11:06They weren't allowed to do that for some time.
11:08Again, they were trying to make everybody happy, which, by the way, usually results in no one being happy.
11:14So the NASA team wants to launch big rockets and start building muscle memory and get back to an iterative
11:20design approach.
11:21SpaceX certainly appreciates it.
11:23I mean, they basically are leveraging our playbook from the 60s of being hardware rich, fail fast, learn and inform
11:29the next one, and blue origin understand.
11:30So we're all aligned about what needs to happen in 27 in order to make 28 successful.
11:35Well, staying on the private sector a little bit, if SpaceX does go public in the coming months, what does
11:40that mean for NASA specifically?
11:41What does it mean for investment in the lunar economy more broadly?
11:44OK, I will happily take every one of NASA's critical suppliers being incredibly well capitalized.
11:51Space is expensive. Space is extremely hard.
11:54We know for sure that launch observation and communications has a real has real commercial viability, that NASA is one
12:02customer of many.
12:03You can get more value out than you put in.
12:05But beyond that, we don't know.
12:07So the fact that the private markets are going to fund this next evolution of a space economy with orbital
12:15data centers and AI satellites, that's awesome.
12:18What about an update on just getting the top talent to NASA right now?
12:22It was a different approach in the 1960s and the late 50s.
12:25Because you were the only game in town.
12:26Exactly. You were the only game in town.
12:28And certainly there were government contractors at that time.
12:30But now there's so much opportunity for young talent to go to places like Blue Origin, places like SpaceX.
12:35You can get equity. It pays more.
12:38How do you get them to come to work for you?
12:39First and foremost is you've got to just inspire the next generation.
12:42They've got to want to grow up and work for NASA.
12:44Fortunately, that hasn't been too much of a problem for us.
12:47We had 200 and some odd thousand internship applications this past year.
12:52We took the top 1%.
12:53So that's good.
12:54And then you launch missions like Artemis 2, Artemis 3.
12:57You put astronauts back on the moon.
12:59You build a moon base.
12:59You launch a nuclear-powered octocopter to Saturn's moon of Titan in 2028 or a nuclear spaceship.
13:04That's a good way to inspire people to grow up and want to contribute.
13:07But how do you get them to want to come to NASA when you don't have the big equity appreciation
13:12like you have from industry and such?
13:13That means we need to work on what no one else is doing.
13:16And that was certainly the case in the 60s when we were the only game in town.
13:20Not always the case today.
13:22We build big rockets.
13:23SpaceX builds big rockets.
13:24SpaceX equity goes off the charts.
13:27NASA doesn't have any equity to go off the charts.
13:29So what does that mean?
13:30We have to recalibrate constantly at NASA to do the near impossible with no company, with no other government agency,
13:37with no other nation is capable of doing.
13:39That's why we're working on nuclear power and propulsion.
13:41I put the model on the president's desk in the Oval Office of SR-1 Freedom.
13:45It's going to launch in 2028.
13:46It's the first of its kind nuclear-powered interplanetary spaceship.
13:50It's going to go past Mars, drop off a couple helicopters, like the Ingenuity-class helicopters with ground-penetrating radar.
13:57It's going to scout out future landing sites for astronauts and look for water eyes.
14:00That's the kind of thing you do that no one else can do.
14:03No one wants to mess around again with highly enriched uranium or launch nuclear reactors.
14:07It should be inherently government function.
14:10Only NASA can do it.
14:11And as a result, you're going to attract the people who want to work on those programs, and you're going
14:14to retain them because you're not competing with industry.
14:16I've heard you tell a story about when you were in kindergarten and you went to the library and just
14:23had this insatiable demand for checking out books about the space shuttle.
14:28What's the equivalent of that right now?
14:29How does this program, how do you inspire the next Jared Isaacman?
14:33Well, I would say it starts before you even get that picture book, right?
14:38For me, and I think it's this way for a lot of kids around the world, is when you just
14:42simply look up at the night sky and look at the stars and just wonder about the possibilities.
14:46That's why I love running NASA, right?
14:48I mean, we have so much great content to work with.
14:50The whole universe is available to us.
14:52But what's inspiring kids today after they get that initial curiosity, is it self-landing rockets on ships like we
14:59see SpaceX and Blue Origin do?
15:01Is it the video that comes back from curiosity or perseverance on Mars, like we have giant rovers on Mars?
15:09Is our nuclear-powered octocopter going to Titan?
15:11Is it Artemis 2, Artemis 3, 4 when astronauts are walking on the moon?
15:15I guarantee you when American astronauts return to the lunar surface, you're going to have a lot of kids dressing
15:19up as astronauts for Halloween.
15:21And then we just got to take them the rest of the way from there.
15:23I did get to put my kids in front of the screen, a 3-year-old and a 7-year
15:27-old, to watch Artemis 2 take off, and it was just awesome.
15:30We're just getting going.
15:31You've said before that the odds that aliens exist is pretty high.
15:36NASA is actively looking for them.
15:38That's part of what NASA does.
15:39Of course.
15:40What exactly are you looking for?
15:42So I would say a lot of what we're doing is just looking for, you know, what are the building
15:47blocks to life and biosignatures that are out there.
15:50It's hard because you are taking measurements, you know, at great distances from Earth itself.
15:58You know, I think that if we had the same data that our robotic rovers on Mars have been able
16:06to transmit back home to us, but we had those samples here instead of being on the surface of Mars,
16:11I think better than 90% chance you bring the samples home from Mars, you will prove that there was
16:15once microbial life on Mars.
16:17Most people look up at the night sky and say, surely it's out there somewhere.
16:22And, you know, you have 2 trillion galaxies.
16:24We barely know our own star system, let alone all the other stars in the Milky Way galaxy, let alone
16:292 trillion other stars.
16:30And it is inherent to what we do at NASA is trying to answer the question, are we alone?
16:34But you get samples back from Mars that say there was once microbial life there.
16:38Europa Clipper sends back biosignatures.
16:41You know, Dragonfly goes to Saturn's moon of Titan and sends back biosignatures.
16:46Habitable Worlds Observatory launches and says, oh, we looked at all these other exoplanets and Goldilocks zones.
16:52There's biosignatures there.
16:53It changes the game to what if it's everywhere?
16:56What I love about this conversation and what I find fascinating is that we often approach it from the perspective
17:02of us finding them.
17:05What are the odds that someone else or another species or another form of life has found us?
17:11I would say extremely low.
17:14I mean, you think about it, human civilization is just a small span of time relative to the age of
17:21the universe, even relative to the age of our planet itself.
17:24As long as you acknowledge that the speed of light is your galactic speed limit and how close we are
17:31to other stars and how close we are to other galaxies on a scale that's extremely hard, I think, for
17:40most people to really appreciate.
17:41It's very hard for me to even appreciate.
17:43The odds of intelligent life finding us at a time period where we are alive as we as we know
17:50ourselves to be right now, it would be, I would say, almost impossible.
17:54Administrator Isaacman, thanks so much for joining us on Bloomberg.
17:57It's great to be here.
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