Dateline NBC - Season 35 - Episode 02: Secrets in the Ashes Eng Sub - video Dailymotion

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Dateline NBC - Season 35 - Episode 02: Secrets in the Ashes

Transcript

00:00:03It can't go down as a homicide, it can't go down as anything but an accident.

00:00:10She wanted me to kill her husband.

00:00:12She sent me a picture, like here he is, go get him.

00:00:15I have to go through the fly-in and the whole widow process.

00:00:20You can hear her complaining that she'll have to be the grieving widow.

00:00:23It would all just be an act.

00:00:25Gave me chills.

00:00:26It made me think, this is something she's done before.

00:00:30You started to dig deeper.

00:00:32You find some posts taking your suspicions to a whole new level.

00:00:37Oh yes.

00:00:39I thought back to the affair.

00:00:41It made me question her part in my aunt's murder.

00:00:45There was a fire.

00:00:47She didn't make it out.

00:00:49What do you say to a six-year-old who just lost his mom?

00:00:52We had zero evidence on housing.

00:00:55Lots of suspicion, my own included.

00:00:57Just when you think the story couldn't get any bigger, it just goes on and on.

00:01:03This could have been the perfect crime.

00:01:05Could have been the perfect crime.

00:01:06Secret recordings and two sinister murder plots was one woman at the center.

00:01:12I'm Lester Holt, and this is Dateline.

00:01:24Here's Andrea Canning with Secrets in the Ashes.

00:01:31I'm never going to be able to rest and be happy unless he's just somehow gone.

00:01:36You're listening to something we rarely get to hear.

00:01:39Something's going to happen to him, because that's my only way out.

00:01:43A murder plot being hatched.

00:01:45There would have to be a silence, so there's no sound.

00:01:48And the shot would have to be just right.

00:01:50Like, whatever's going to happen, it has to happen, number one, when I'm at work,

00:01:55or somewhere else where I can f***ing verify that I'm there.

00:02:00A deadly plan, and an unlikely mastermind behind it.

00:02:04I knew that she was a terrible person.

00:02:07I didn't know that she was that heartless.

00:02:09I found Facebook pages online where people complained about her by the hundreds.

00:02:15Hundreds?

00:02:16Hundreds.

00:02:17My initial thought, really, was karma.

00:02:28It was an early June morning in 2003.

00:02:31Mildred Pugh was heading to the grocery store in Goliad, Texas.

00:02:35You're driving with a friend, and you see something.

00:02:38Yes.

00:02:39We see smoke.

00:02:41And the closer that we get to the smoke, then we realize that there's a house on fire.

00:02:47In front of the burning house, a child.

00:02:50I looked out, and I saw a little boy, and all he had on was his underwear.

00:02:56Mildred jumped out of the car and ran over to help.

00:02:59And the little boy said, my mommy's in that house.

00:03:02Can you get her out?

00:03:04That little boy was John Michael Burdett, just six years old.

00:03:08He'd awoken moments before to a terrible sound.

00:03:11Screaming.

00:03:13I'm being woke up to screaming.

00:03:15And it's your mom.

00:03:16This is my mom screaming.

00:03:17The house is on fire.

00:03:18His mother, 31-year-old Patricia Lee Mills, was in the next bedroom.

00:03:23She'd just get out.

00:03:26And were you screaming anything back to her?

00:03:29I was...

00:03:30What do I do?

00:03:32Yeah.

00:03:33I mean, I want to go run towards the front door, but couldn't because the whole wall was on fire.

00:03:39The living room was engulfed in flames, blocking the front door.

00:03:43There was some quick thinking that was going to happen here.

00:03:46Yes, ma'am.

00:03:47I got away from it.

00:03:48You ran and tried to take a different route out?

00:03:50I went through my bedroom window.

00:03:53Yeah.

00:03:53My bedroom window was the furthest away from the fire.

00:03:57Tossed my toy box out the window.

00:03:58My toy box went out, and I went in after her.

00:04:01Once out, John Michael wanted to go right back in to save his mom.

00:04:05Mildred told him to stay put.

00:04:07She approached a window.

00:04:09I could hear this woman's voice.

00:04:11What's she saying?

00:04:12I don't know.

00:04:14I don't know what she was saying.

00:04:16But I was trying to assure her that that little boy wasn't still in the house.

00:04:23Oh, my gosh.

00:04:24And so I told her to hold on.

00:04:27The front of the house was engulfed in flames, so Mildred ran around to the back, but the door was

00:04:32locked from the outside.

00:04:33There was, what, a padlock?

00:04:35There was a padlock on the outside of the back door.

00:04:38By now, two men had stopped to help.

00:04:40Together, Mildred and the men were able to force the back door open.

00:04:43Oh, wow.

00:04:44So are you able to go into the house, or is there too much smoke?

00:04:48We opened the door, and black smoke billowed out of the back door.

00:04:54Inside, Patricia Lee had gone silent.

00:04:57I think the smoke got the best of her.

00:05:00What is the little boy doing while this is happening?

00:05:02Standing there watching it burn.

00:05:05Because that baby was watching his mama die.

00:05:12Do you remember that feeling of being helpless and standing there watching?

00:05:16I very much remember just feeling absolutely like, I could do more, but I can't because I'm going to hurt

00:05:23myself.

00:05:27Firefighters arrived and put out the blaze.

00:05:29They found Patricia Lee in the front bedroom.

00:05:32She was gone.

00:05:34You get a call from your mom one morning with some really bad news.

00:05:39I was home alone, and my mom called.

00:05:43Jessica Lefferts is John's cousin.

00:05:45She was 18 when she got the news about her aunt, Patricia Lee.

00:05:49And I said, Mama, what's wrong?

00:05:52And she said, there was a fire.

00:05:55And I said, okay.

00:05:57And she said, John made it out.

00:06:00And I said, what about Lee?

00:06:02And she got real quiet.

00:06:04And I said, Mama, what about Lee?

00:06:09And she said that she didn't make it out.

00:06:12And that she was gone.

00:06:15That John was okay.

00:06:18Patricia Lee's husband, Delbert Mills, was at work when the fire started.

00:06:22He arrived at the scene to learn his wife was dead, and his son was outside in an ambulance.

00:06:27My dad pulls up and jumps in the back of the ambulance, and he looks me, stone-cold in my

00:06:32face, and your mom's dead.

00:06:35My son is six right now.

00:06:37You are six.

00:06:38I know exactly how a six-year-old behaves and processes everything.

00:06:43And I can't even imagine you in that situation, hearing that about your mom, and also having just gone through

00:06:50a fire.

00:06:50Yeah, I mean, my thing is, like, at six, you don't even really know what death is.

00:06:56No.

00:06:56And being told somebody's dead is like, what does that mean?

00:07:00You just know your mom's never coming home.

00:07:03And you just know that she's gone.

00:07:06And you don't know why.

00:07:07You don't know how.

00:07:11I'm so sorry.

00:07:14Later that day, Patricia Lee's family gathered to comfort one another.

00:07:18As soon as I saw John, like, I grabbed him, and I held on to him.

00:07:22What do you say to him?

00:07:24His whole world is gone.

00:07:25He just kept telling me, he said, the house caught on fire.

00:07:31And I said, I know, baby.

00:07:33He kept saying that he tried to get her out.

00:07:36He said, I couldn't get her.

00:07:38And I said, well, you're little.

00:07:40It's okay.

00:07:41Mama understands.

00:07:43It was a lot.

00:07:45And a lot more was about to come.

00:07:48What was your mom's reaction?

00:07:49She dug her heels.

00:07:51She dug her heels, and she kept pushing.

00:07:53You made it your mission to start warning people about her.

00:07:57Absolutely.

00:07:57She surprises you with a big ask.

00:08:00She did.

00:08:01I mean, I don't want you to be coordinating it, but I need your help finding someone.

00:08:21Investigators were sifting through the charred timber.

00:08:23Trying to figure out what started the fire that took Patricia Lee's life.

00:08:27They quickly surmised the old wood frame house, just 530 square feet, had been a fire trap.

00:08:34Danny Madrigal was a detective with the Goliad Sheriff's Office.

00:08:38Everything in the house had burned down to a crisp.

00:08:42You know, walls, furniture, you name it.

00:08:45Everything had, it was a very intense fire inside.

00:08:49One door was blocked by a bed, another locked from the outside.

00:08:54The only available door was in the living room, where the fire was at its most intense.

00:08:59Patricia Lee never made it out of her room.

00:09:01The official cause of death was smoke inhalation and carbon monoxide poisoning.

00:09:06This was a death trap for Patricia Lee.

00:09:09It was, yes.

00:09:10Yes, it was.

00:09:12Everyone agreed it was a miracle that little John Michael had managed to escape through a window.

00:09:18I was a mama's boy.

00:09:19John Michael was an only child.

00:09:21His dad, Delbert, drove a truck for a septic tank company, while Patricia Lee stayed home with John.

00:09:26What kind of things would you do with your mom?

00:09:29We'd play outside.

00:09:31We'd go to the park.

00:09:33We'd just ride around together.

00:09:35Just spend time together.

00:09:36We'd watch TV together.

00:09:39We'd do almost everything together.

00:09:42She was a big sister that I didn't have.

00:09:45I don't know how I would have gotten through a lot of what I did without her.

00:09:51What did she help you through?

00:09:53Normal teenage stuff.

00:09:54We would talk boys.

00:09:56We would talk everyday life, school.

00:10:00Lee really was that person that would give the shoes off her feet, the clothes off her back.

00:10:04If she had a penny, the only penny to her name, she would give it to you.

00:10:08Like, she really was a genuine person with a heart of gold.

00:10:12Patricia Lee met Delbert in church.

00:10:14He was originally from Arkansas and said he'd been out east, attending the West Point Military Academy.

00:10:20The two were married in 1996.

00:10:23A year and a half later came John Michael.

00:10:26How badly did she want to be a mom?

00:10:28Very, very much so.

00:10:30So when she did get pregnant, she was so over the moon.

00:10:34You call your mom, like, even at that young age, your best friend?

00:10:38Yes.

00:10:39She was always there when I needed her.

00:10:42Now John Michael would never see his mother again.

00:10:45That evening, just hours after the fire, Delbert shared Patricia Lee's wishes for her son.

00:10:50Delbert had came to my mom shortly after and told my mom that he and Lee had had a conversation.

00:11:00That if anything happened to either one of them, that my mom would get John.

00:11:05Your mom agreed to take John in.

00:11:08She did.

00:11:09So you ended up getting taken in by your mom's sister, your aunt.

00:11:14Yes, ma'am.

00:11:15Did you feel loved by your aunt and your family?

00:11:19Yes.

00:11:20As John Michael and Patricia Lee's family struggled with their grief, fire marshals finished their investigation.

00:11:27They concluded the blaze had started in the living room, where they found three kerosene lanterns in a pile near

00:11:33a coffee table.

00:11:34But the report described them as decorative only and not in use.

00:11:38The fire department does come to you with a conclusion.

00:11:41That it was inconclusive.

00:11:44That they couldn't determine a cause of the fire.

00:11:47So the conclusion was no conclusion.

00:11:50No conclusion.

00:11:52Patricia Lee's family knew the report was wrong about one thing.

00:11:56Those kerosene lanterns in the house were not just decorative.

00:11:59They were in use.

00:12:01Delbert insisted on using the lanterns as lights to save money on electricity.

00:12:06Those lanterns were used, like, all the time.

00:12:09He didn't like to run the electric.

00:12:11In order to move from room to room, you'd have to have a lantern.

00:12:15Lee would have to make sure that dinner was cooked before sundown.

00:12:19Otherwise, she would have to cook using a lantern.

00:12:22If you had to go to the bathroom, you had to grab a lantern if there wasn't already one in

00:12:26there.

00:12:27There was probably 10, 14, I don't know how many.

00:12:32There was a lot.

00:12:33Some hung on the ceiling, some sat on the table.

00:12:36Which is unusual.

00:12:37Yeah, there's a lot of lanterns.

00:12:39Yeah.

00:12:39For such a small house, especially, that we lived in.

00:12:43The report had one more surprise for Patricia Lee's family.

00:12:46Its final recommendation.

00:12:48This case should be closed.

00:12:51And they were going to leave it at that.

00:12:53They weren't going to look into it anymore.

00:12:56And was that case closed?

00:12:58For them, it was.

00:13:00But for Patricia Lee's family, the findings left them reeling.

00:13:04As would what happened next.

00:13:06Delbert came to my mom and told her that he was marrying Allison.

00:13:27After the fire that killed his mother, Patricia Lee,

00:13:30John Michael was adjusting to life with his aunt Sharon and his cousins.

00:13:34Was he really processing what was happening, being six years old?

00:13:38I think he processed it as much as he could.

00:13:40And my mom and I would talk to him about, you know, mommy's in heaven.

00:13:45And that she was always going to be watching over him.

00:13:48I, what do you say to a six-year-old who just lost his mom?

00:13:51That person is no longer around, no longer coming around, no longer there.

00:13:55You can't call on them when you need them.

00:13:59You can't talk to them.

00:14:03You can't reach out for them.

00:14:06Yeah.

00:14:07The adjustment was painful and slow.

00:14:10It was a different story for his father.

00:14:13You get some bombshell news not too long after the fire.

00:14:18Delbert came to my mom and told her that he was marrying Allison.

00:14:25It was just six weeks after the fire and Delbert was already engaged.

00:14:29There would soon be a new Mrs. Mills.

00:14:32Allison was Allison Newman, a divorced mom who shared custody of three young girls with her ex.

00:14:38Allison was always very outgoing.

00:14:40Keisha Ringland was a neighbor of Allison's who babysat for her daughters.

00:14:44She was very kind and compassionate.

00:14:47She was somebody that was so easy to talk to.

00:14:49Allison was no stranger to Patricia Lee's family.

00:14:52She had briefly dated Delbert's brother and had lived with Delbert and Patricia Lee before the fire.

00:14:57Allison came to stay with you.

00:14:58Yeah, she stayed with us probably two months, three months.

00:15:02There was no bed for her or bedroom.

00:15:06No, she had a mattress on the floor in my bedroom.

00:15:09Allison had been living with a boyfriend while her ex took care of the girls.

00:15:12When that relationship went south, she needed a place to stay.

00:15:16The boyfriend kicked her out sometime between Thanksgiving and Christmas,

00:15:19and then she ended up in Goliad with Lee and Delbert.

00:15:22And they gave her a place to stay?

00:15:24Correct.

00:15:25As friends?

00:15:26Yes.

00:15:27But not just friends, according to what Patricia Lee told her niece.

00:15:32She woke up in the middle of the night, walked into the living room,

00:15:35and caught Allison and Delbert in a very compromising position on the sofa.

00:15:40Were they having sex?

00:15:42Yes.

00:15:43Right under her own roof.

00:15:45I mean, there's no hiding it.

00:15:46It was in the living room.

00:15:48Allison immediately moved out.

00:15:51Literally woke up one day, and the mattress wasn't on the floor anymore,

00:15:54and the lady who was sleeping on my floor was just gone.

00:15:58I'm like, okay, well, got my room back.

00:16:02Did anyone say anything about why she was gone?

00:16:04No.

00:16:06That was in February.

00:16:07Four months later, Patricia Lee was dead.

00:16:10Now, Delbert and Allison were married.

00:16:13I would guess that didn't sit well with you and your family.

00:16:16No.

00:16:17What did that say to you?

00:16:19About everything.

00:16:21It just solidified what I kind of already knew, that he never really cared about my aunt,

00:16:27that he never really loved her, that he didn't love his son, he didn't love John.

00:16:32And I'm like, what the hell?

00:16:36I mean, excuse my language, but what the hell?

00:16:39It's so quick.

00:16:39I was still trying to process the loss of my mom.

00:16:43Like, how can you process it that fast?

00:16:45In the coming months, John would see his father less and less, and then not at all.

00:16:51And Delbert wasn't done with making changes.

00:16:53He was soon spotted driving a new truck around town, courtesy of a $15,000 life insurance policy he'd taken

00:17:00out on Patricia Lee before she died.

00:17:02And he took that and bought himself a truck.

00:17:06A new truck, a new wife.

00:17:08Delbert seemed to be living a new life altogether.

00:17:11It made me question whether or not the fire was a way to get rid of Lee so that he

00:17:19could be with Allison.

00:17:21Like, did he do this?

00:17:23That's a scary place to be, to start thinking that, because this fire is undetermined.

00:17:29Right.

00:17:30Patricia Lee's family read the fire marshal's report and noted who had told the marshal those lanterns were decorative only.

00:17:38Delbert himself.

00:17:39He swore to them that they were just decoration.

00:17:42He didn't know how they were all in a pile, that they were never, ever used.

00:17:45The family knew that was a lie and suspected Delbert was trying to cover up something.

00:17:50Did you think maybe Delbert then had put all the lanterns together on purpose?

00:17:55There was no other explanation for it.

00:17:58Jessica's mom, Sharon, took her suspicions about Delbert to the Goliad Sheriff's Department.

00:18:03So she starts telling them how she felt like this was deliberate.

00:18:08And, you know, she's like, I really would like for y'all to look into this.

00:18:13They took her statement.

00:18:15But neither the sheriff nor the fire marshal saw reason to reopen the investigation.

00:18:20Delbert had an ironclad alibi.

00:18:23He had been at work when the fire started, a 20-minute drive away.

00:18:26There was no way he could have set the fire.

00:18:29The case remained closed.

00:18:31What was your mom's reaction when she's being told all of this?

00:18:35She dug her heels.

00:18:37She dug her heels and she kept pushing.

00:18:40She wasn't going to let them stop her.

00:18:42Your mom was just getting started.

00:18:45Yeah.

00:18:46And she was going to hear from an unlikely source who seemed ready to help.

00:18:51And he blurted out that if I left him, that he would do the same thing to me that he

00:19:00did to Patricia.

00:19:16The investigation into the fire that killed Patricia Lee was officially closed.

00:19:20But her family had questions and suspicions.

00:19:24They thought her husband Delbert was somehow to blame.

00:19:27What was your dad like?

00:19:29He wasn't sunshine and rainbows.

00:19:33He was mean.

00:19:35What would he do to you?

00:19:37Hit, scream, yell, just call you names and all kinds of other things.

00:19:46And to your mom?

00:19:47I remember him breaking her nose.

00:19:51We were at one of their friends' house and they got into an argument.

00:19:55And you saw it?

00:19:56Mm-hmm.

00:19:56I called the cops on him.

00:19:58You called police?

00:19:59Yes.

00:19:59I was like five.

00:20:01Wow.

00:20:03Delbert is a very narcissistic person.

00:20:05Very selfish.

00:20:07Very abusive in every way possible.

00:20:10So physical, mental, sexually, like any abusive way that he could be, he was.

00:20:14Jessica says Patricia Lee once threatened to leave Delbert, and he responded with a threat

00:20:20of his own.

00:20:20Without even a single second, Delbert spoke up and said the only way she'd be leaving is

00:20:25in a body bag.

00:20:27With little help from the sheriff's office, Patricia Lee's sister Sharon began her own

00:20:32investigation into the fire.

00:20:33She studied the pictures, she would talk to different people that had any kind of contact

00:20:40with Delbert, and she would just start writing everything down and she would build a case

00:20:45of her own.

00:20:47Two frustrating years passed.

00:20:49Delbert is free to go about his life.

00:20:53Walking around like it was nothing.

00:20:56Walking around like he hadn't just lost a wife.

00:20:58Walking around like he hadn't almost lost a child.

00:21:02He was just going around living his everyday life, and he was living it with Allison.

00:21:08Then, in June of 2005, help came from a surprising source, Delbert's new wife.

00:21:14Allison reached out to Patricia Lee's sister with a story, and Sharon encouraged her to go

00:21:19tell it to Detective Madrigal.

00:21:21You're married to who?

00:21:23Delbert.

00:21:25And how long have y'all been married?

00:21:28Almost two years.

00:21:29Almost two years now?

00:21:30Okay.

00:21:31I did interview Allison when she came in.

00:21:34She said that her and Delbert had had an argument.

00:21:38And she now has something pretty explosive to say.

00:21:43Yes.

00:21:44And he blurted out that if I left him,

00:21:49that he would do the same thing to me that he did to Patricia.

00:21:54Allison told the detective that Delbert went on to explain how he set the fire to ignite

00:21:59after he left the house.

00:22:01He told me that before he left for work that morning, he purposely set a cigarette, a lit

00:22:07cigarette, I guess, up against or by some wiring that he made sure that it was faulty.

00:22:14It was down, pulled down, to where he knew it would cause a spark.

00:22:18Took one of the, I guess, their kerosene lamps and took the top off of it and poured it around

00:22:24that area to where he said that he knew it would set fire after a while.

00:22:31And he left for work.

00:22:33Allison's essentially giving you a confession here.

00:22:36I mean, it's secondhand from her, but she's saying that he confessed.

00:22:41Yes.

00:22:42A couple weeks after that interview, the detective had a plan for what to do next.

00:22:47I contacted her and felt that we needed to get her wired and try to have her have a conversation

00:22:53with Delbert and get him to say something incriminating.

00:22:58Detective Madrigal says she refused to wear a wire.

00:23:02Apparently, whatever fight she'd been having with Delbert was over.

00:23:05She told me, well, you know what?

00:23:09Maybe he really didn't say what I told you he said.

00:23:12So she recanted what she had told me.

00:23:15Jessica heard from her mom that Allison backed off out of fear.

00:23:19She pulled back saying that she was scared that Delbert was going to come after her and her kids.

00:23:24Detective Madrigal never questioned Delbert.

00:23:27I think people watching will say, you know, why didn't somebody bring Delbert in and just

00:23:32put him on that hot seat and just go at him like they do, you know,

00:23:36sometimes up to eight hours, you know, with suspects.

00:23:40We could have done that, but you don't want to ruin that one chance you got.

00:23:46If he denied everything, you know, what do you have?

00:23:49He said, she said situation.

00:23:52If I really felt that I could have cracked this case by talking to Delbert, I would have done so.

00:23:59The red hot lead went nowhere and the investigation went cold again.

00:24:03The years piled up, but Patricia Lee's sister never stopped pleading with the sheriff's office

00:24:08to keep digging into Delbert.

00:24:10A long time.

00:24:12She almost gave up.

00:24:14Why didn't she?

00:24:15That was her sister.

00:24:17That was her baby.

00:24:19And she knew, she knew that he did it.

00:24:24It was just cracking that door and having someone see what she was seeing.

00:24:31That someone was about to enter the investigation and stories from the past would soon get everyone's attention.

00:24:39Delbert told me that he knew a way that he could get rid of my husband and make it look

00:24:45like it was an accident.

00:25:01Seven years after the fire that killed Patricia Lee, a new sheriff was elected in Goliad County, Texas.

00:25:07He had Constable Mike Thompson, a retired homicide detective, take a look at the case file.

00:25:13Thompson set up a meeting with Patricia Lee's sister Sharon, who pressed him to investigate Delbert.

00:25:18Is she really desperate at this point, you know, for help and feeling like, you know, you're kind of her,

00:25:25maybe her final chance to get something done?

00:25:28I think she had been desperate for several years.

00:25:31She felt like nobody was listening.

00:25:33And now here you are listening to her.

00:25:35I think that was one of her comments.

00:25:37I think he's, he's actually taking notes.

00:25:43Thompson suspected arson, but had his work cut out to prove it.

00:25:46No physical evidence had been collected from the fire scene.

00:25:50And by 2010, there was no scene.

00:25:53When I got involved, this, this is basically what I had to work with.

00:25:56An empty lot, no house, no structures.

00:26:02With the lack of physical evidence, this is really coming down to who you're going to be able to get

00:26:08to talk.

00:26:09Yeah, it all came down to people, word of mouth.

00:26:14The family handed over all the information they'd gathered.

00:26:17And Jessica told Thompson about something strange Delbert had said to her the night of the fire.

00:26:23He was telling me how he just didn't understand.

00:26:26And I said, you don't understand what, like how the fire started?

00:26:30And he said, no, I just, I don't understand how John got out.

00:26:35I put plexiglass so thick on those windows and I cocked it up so much, a grown man couldn't have

00:26:40kicked those windows out.

00:26:42Did you say, why would you do that?

00:26:45No, I didn't ask him why.

00:26:48What I looked, I looked at him and I said, well, be grateful that he did get out.

00:26:53Yeah.

00:26:53And he just looked at me and he didn't say anything else.

00:26:57You want to be hearing from a father, thank God he got out, not how did he get out.

00:27:02That's what you'd think.

00:27:03That was not his reaction.

00:27:06The constable also met with Allison's friend, Keisha Ringland, who had a story about Delbert.

00:27:12It was the holidays of 2007.

00:27:13My husband and I had gotten into a really, really, really bad fight.

00:27:19Keisha went over to Delbert and Allison's house for support, and she says this is how Delbert offered to help.

00:27:27Delbert told me that he knew a way that he could get rid of my husband and make it look

00:27:32like it was an accident.

00:27:33And he was like, I can kill him.

00:27:35I can set the apartment on fire and make it look like an accident.

00:27:38And I remember thinking to myself, who would say something like that?

00:27:44What are you thinking about what Keisha is telling you?

00:27:46I mean, these are very damning statements.

00:27:49She's repeating what I've been hearing from other people about Delbert.

00:27:54Thompson had been going through the file and found other witnesses who'd been interviewed years earlier.

00:27:58And would you state your name, date of birth?

00:28:01Sherry Lynn Donnell.

00:28:03Sherry Donnell was Allison's cousin by marriage.

00:28:06Years earlier, she told Detective Madrigal that she heard a drunk Delbert boasting about killing his wife.

00:28:11He was talking about putting boxes in front of the doors to block her way.

00:28:18Delbert said he had turned the gas on when he left to work that morning.

00:28:23And of course, Investigator Thompson listened to the interview with Delbert's wife, Allison.

00:28:28He would do the same thing to me that he did to Patricia.

00:28:32Allison had recanted, but now she and Delbert were divorced.

00:28:36You bring her in?

00:28:38I brought her into my office.

00:28:40Allison told Thompson her original statement was true.

00:28:44So this is a big deal, this statement that she's making.

00:28:48Yes, he actually told her, I'll do to you what I did to Patricia.

00:28:53The constable brought his case to then DA Mike Shepard.

00:28:57He has pieced together with little pieces of evidence a case that strongly suggests that Delbert Mills killed his wife.

00:29:07He had talked to all the peripheral witnesses who helped put the full picture together.

00:29:12So you, you're all in agreement, let's bring in Delbert.

00:29:16Yes.

00:29:17Does that happen?

00:29:18It does happen.

00:29:19Would you strike your name?

00:29:21Delbert.

00:29:22A Texas Ranger named Todd Reed and a second investigator questioned Delbert as Thompson watched from another room.

00:29:29Got my stuff ready for work and everything.

00:29:32Left the house probably roughly about 6.30.

00:29:37Delbert said he left Patricia Lee and John sleeping safely with no sign of any fire.

00:29:41He got to work by 7.

00:29:43Sometime after 8.30 came the call.

00:29:46His house was on fire.

00:29:48By the time I got there, the fire trucks was there.

00:29:50There was an ambulance there.

00:29:52He said he flagged down a first responder.

00:29:54And she told me, she said, Delbert, Patricia didn't make it.

00:30:00Yeah, it still chokes me up to talk about it.

00:30:04And I said, it can't be.

00:30:07Delbert starts the interview by saying he still gets choked up just talking about it.

00:30:12Yeah.

00:30:13Did you buy that?

00:30:14I don't think that was a real emotional reaction.

00:30:17I thought he was staging it.

00:30:19What do you think started the fire?

00:30:21I have no idea and that's what I want to know.

00:30:23Well, you must have some kind of idea.

00:30:26From what I can gather and stuff, from what I've been told, it was an electric fire.

00:30:31Did you burn the house?

00:30:33No, I did not.

00:30:35As far as I know, it was an electric fire and that's what I was told.

00:30:38We know for a fact that you've told several people that you burned that house down and killed your wife.

00:30:46No, I did not.

00:30:48Are they lying?

00:30:49Yes, they're lying.

00:30:50And the story that he and Allison started their relationship before the fire?

00:30:54He tried to deny that too.

00:30:57I don't remember whether I kissed her or not.

00:30:58If I did, I never did get caught.

00:31:02Because Patricia didn't catch me kissing her.

00:31:04Did you hear what you just said?

00:31:06Yeah, I said, I know what I just said.

00:31:07I said, if I did, I never got caught.

00:31:09You never got caught.

00:31:10So you're saying you did?

00:31:12No, I'm not saying I did.

00:31:13I'm not saying I didn't because I don't remember.

00:31:15Delbert agreed to come back a week and a half later and take a polygraph.

00:31:19Delbert took the polygraph.

00:31:20Delbert failed the polygraph.

00:31:22The failure of the polygraph is telling me as district attorney, we probably got our guy.

00:31:27Yeah.

00:31:28But I can't show this to a jury.

00:31:30We've got to get a little more.

00:31:32After investigators told Delbert he failed the polygraph, they questioned him again.

00:31:36And now his story started to change.

00:31:39Maybe he did have an idea how the fire started.

00:31:43Put my cigarette in the ashtray or on the ashtray, I don't know which.

00:31:46Where was the ashtray?

00:31:47Sitting on the coffee table.

00:31:49Okay.

00:31:50And when I went out the front door, when I slammed the front door, that lamp fell.

00:31:54And if that lamp would have fell, it would have hit the couch and hit the coffee table.

00:32:00And I think that's what started the fire.

00:32:02It's still hard to admit that I may have started that fire.

00:32:08Of particular interest to investigators, where Delbert says the fire may have started, the living room.

00:32:14In his statement, he pinpoints the actual origin of the point of fire,

00:32:18which is one of the few things we had that was useful from our fire investigation.

00:32:22He would not have known that.

00:32:24That was not public record.

00:32:25Only the killer would know.

00:32:26Only the killer would know.

00:32:28Though Delbert had told multiple stories over the years about how he started the fire,

00:32:32investigators had a theory of their own.

00:32:34What we surmised he did was put a candle in the pool of lantern oil and let it burn down.

00:32:41Giving him time to get to work before the fire started, investigators had heard enough.

00:32:47Eight years after Patricia Lee's death, Delbert was arrested for first-degree murder.

00:32:54How good did it feel making that call to Sharon?

00:32:57It was pretty good.

00:32:58You don't get that kind of opportunity every day.

00:33:03You get emotional just thinking back?

00:33:06At times.

00:33:09What gets you so...

00:33:11Don't tell anybody or you'll ruin my reputation.

00:33:14Delbert was in jail at last, but a question remained.

00:33:18There's no way he did it by himself.

00:33:20There's absolutely no way.

00:33:22I always thought she's more involved than anybody really knows.

00:33:27Yeah.

00:33:27I don't see how she could not be.

00:33:43It was 2011, eight years after her Aunt Patricia Lee's death, when Jessica got a call.

00:33:49My mom called, and she said, they got him.

00:33:52And I said, they got Delbert?

00:33:55And she was like, yeah, they just arrested him.

00:33:57Mike just called me.

00:33:58She just cried.

00:34:00We sat on the phone, and I remember her saying, we got Emily.

00:34:06You can rest now.

00:34:09This was a long time coming.

00:34:12It was a long time.

00:34:13John Michael was a teenager when his father was arrested.

00:34:17If he did this, he had to know that you were in the house as well.

00:34:24It's disturbing.

00:34:25To kill your wife, but then, you know, to potentially kill your young son.

00:34:33I guess that's what happens when you want to move on with your life with somebody else.

00:34:42And investigators had questions about that somebody else.

00:34:46She struck me as just a squirrely witness.

00:34:48She had flip-flopped.

00:34:49She had, at one time, exonerated Delbert before vigorously trying to get him convicted.

00:34:57Over the years, Allison had offered up information to help the investigation.

00:35:01But Constable Thompson asked her to take a polygraph.

00:35:05Did she agree to take it?

00:35:06She agreed to take it.

00:35:07How did she do?

00:35:08She, uh, showed deception.

00:35:12She failed it.

00:35:13If the investigators were right that Delbert lit a candle in a pool of lantern oil to construct an alibi,

00:35:19it was a clever plan.

00:35:21Delbert wasn't smart enough for that.

00:35:24Allison was.

00:35:26Delbert wasn't.

00:35:28Delbert just acted it out.

00:35:30Delbert didn't have much education.

00:35:32No.

00:35:32Though Delbert now denies ever claiming he went to West Point, Jessica says he lied about his education.

00:35:39Not a lot of people get into West Point.

00:35:41But that was part of Delbert.

00:35:42He was a pathological liar.

00:35:44So was Delbert just the brawn while Allison was the brains?

00:35:48Even though there was no hard evidence linking Allison to the crime, that was Jessica's theory.

00:35:54I felt like she was the one that came up with the idea to set this fire and for him

00:35:59to get to work so that he'd have an alibi.

00:36:01Do you think Allison played a role in your mom's murder?

00:36:05Oh, definitely.

00:36:07I mean, they were having an affair together.

00:36:09I always thought she's more involved than anybody really knows.

00:36:13Yeah.

00:36:14I don't see how she could not be.

00:36:17And there was something else in the case file that pointed to Allison.

00:36:20Something her cousin by marriage, Sherry, had said back in 2005.

00:36:24Sherry had some pretty damning statements to make about Allison that she says Delbert told her.

00:36:33Delbert told her that they had planned it.

00:36:35He said that he was glad the bitch was dead, that he's glad that, yeah, Allison had thought of a

00:36:46plan to kill her, and that he went ahead and done it.

00:36:52You know, her and him went and done it together.

00:36:56This is the first person, really, to bring Allison into this in a big way.

00:37:01Into the actual planning and execution of the fire, yes.

00:37:07But Prosecutor Shepard knew that part of Sherry's story about Delbert couldn't be used in court.

00:37:11It would be hearsay and inadmissible.

00:37:14I mean, as hard as Mike worked on this case and as many people as he talked to,

00:37:19at the end of the day, we had zero competent evidence on Allison.

00:37:25Lots of suspicion, my own included, but no evidence.

00:37:29Allison was never charged with anything relating to the fire.

00:37:34Delbert Mills went on trial in January of 2013, waiving his right to a jury in favor of a bench

00:37:40trial.

00:37:41After just three days of testimony, the judge gave his verdict.

00:37:45Based on the evidence, I'm guilty of the offense.

00:37:51Guilty?

00:37:52Guilty.

00:37:53What was his reaction to that in the courtroom?

00:37:56He just hung his head.

00:37:57The whole trial, he kind of looked like a whip dog.

00:38:00And that did not change when the verdict came out.

00:38:03Delbert was sentenced to life in prison.

00:38:06Sometimes it takes a while.

00:38:07I mean, it took 10 years, but it got it, so.

00:38:10It got done.

00:38:12You gave just a heartbreaking victim impact statement in the courtroom.

00:38:16And you faced your father.

00:38:18I had to.

00:38:19I mean, that was the only time I'd be able to ask him that question, you know, face-to-face.

00:38:27Delbert, why did you take away the one and only person who truly believed and loved me?

00:38:33With all her heart and my soul, do I love you?

00:38:47That unanswered question hung in the courtroom and hung over the lives of everyone who knew John Michael and his

00:38:53mother.

00:38:54And in the years ahead, the questions would only multiply.

00:38:58There are going to be people who find what you're saying right now despicable.

00:39:02Mm-hmm.

00:39:03And Allison, she would chart a new life as entrepreneur, podcaster, and politician.

00:39:10Hi, everybody.

00:39:10I'm Allison Salinas, and welcome to Citizen Watch.

00:39:13But what was her next plan?

00:39:16Something's got to happen to him, because that's my only way out.

00:39:19Can you see, though, the similarities between the two cases?

00:39:24You're the common thread.

00:39:39Seven years after Delbert Mills was convicted of murder, and about 300 miles north of that Goliad County courthouse,

00:39:45James Turrentine's phone pinged with a new message.

00:39:49He didn't recognize the number, but when he opened it, the name rang a bell.

00:39:54It was something along the lines of,

00:39:56Hey, this is Allison. I don't know if you remember me.

00:39:59It was Allison Mills, Delbert's ex-wife.

00:40:02She was my first real girlfriend.

00:40:05James dated Allison when they were in high school.

00:40:07Now, nearly 30 years after their teenage breakup, she was reaching out.

00:40:11How random was that?

00:40:13Very random. It was such a long time to go by.

00:40:17What does she want? Just to reconnect?

00:40:21She wanted to spend a lot of time discussing our lives where we've been in the past 28 years.

00:40:28What had been going on in your life, and what did she say had been going on in hers?

00:40:31I'd been living my life. You know, I'd been through some things, but I mean, she told me that she

00:40:39had been married a couple of times,

00:40:40and she told me that she had been married to a guy who had murdered his wife.

00:40:48That's a lot.

00:40:49Yeah.

00:40:50What kind of questions did you have when she told you that her husband had been convicted of murder?

00:40:54I thought it best not to ask a lot of questions.

00:40:56It seemed more appropriate to me at the time to express sympathy, because that's a lot to deal with.

00:41:03Did she tell you what had happened?

00:41:06She said that he'd locked her in a house and set the house on fire.

00:41:09That was the extent of it.

00:41:11A few years after Delbert was convicted, Allison left Texas with her three daughters and started over in central Illinois.

00:41:18She had a new life and a new name.

00:41:21She was now Allison Salinas, remarried to a contractor named Patrick Salinas.

00:41:27She told me she was an entrepreneur.

00:41:30She said she was selling things online.

00:41:32It kind of made it sound like life was great for her.

00:41:34Allison had gone to college and was active in her new community in greater Peoria.

00:41:39I'm going to talk about a few things going on.

00:41:41She hosted a political podcast.

00:41:43Hi, everybody.

00:41:44I'm Allison Salinas, and welcome to Citizen Watch, where your voice matters.

00:41:49And she told James she had political aspirations herself.

00:41:52She made a primary run for the U.S. Senate, trying to get on the Republican ticket.

00:41:57Allison was running for U.S. Senate?

00:41:59Mm-hmm.

00:42:00What did she tell you about that?

00:42:01She said that she wanted to change things in the country, and it kind of surprised me.

00:42:06The local news covered a series of rallies Allison organized to support police.

00:42:11We need to bring out the human side of these cops to show them they're just like us.

00:42:15They're no different than us.

00:42:17I thought that's bold to be out in the public spotlight like that, but I wished her the best

00:42:23of luck.

00:42:24The campaign ended before she could get on the ballot.

00:42:27She dropped out, citing a cancer diagnosis.

00:42:30She told me that she'd been a cancer survivor, and then a few months, I guess, into our conversations,

00:42:37she mentioned that the cancer was back.

00:42:39James says Allison told him she couldn't afford her treatments.

00:42:42She asked him for money.

00:42:43That just seemed rather suspicious.

00:42:46And when I didn't answer her texts right away, she responded with,

00:42:51wow, like I had done something wrong.

00:42:54Like you weren't jumping to say, I'll give you the money.

00:42:57Yes, trying to make me feel guilty.

00:43:00And to me, that just seemed really manipulative.

00:43:03And I told her, I said, this feels like a scam to me.

00:43:06I'm not going to do it.

00:43:07So after this whole, like, asking for money for cancer, you decide to do a search?

00:43:14Yes.

00:43:14And what did you find?

00:43:15I found Facebook pages online where people complained about her by the hundreds.

00:43:23Hundreds?

00:43:24Hundreds.

00:43:25Just one after another after another.

00:43:28One of those people on Facebook was a woman named Kate Elliott.

00:43:32Kate first met Allison at a church in Peoria's East Bluff neighborhood.

00:43:36They were both volunteering to help plan a community fundraiser.

00:43:40Was she new to town at this point?

00:43:42Okay, so how did she even hear about it?

00:43:44There were flyers passed out through the neighborhood.

00:43:47And there is a Facebook page that also asks, you know,

00:43:51if you have any ideas for a fundraiser.

00:43:53You know, we're all meeting at a church.

00:43:55Her idea was a concert.

00:43:57Yes.

00:43:57She wanted to call it the East Bluff Jamboree.

00:43:59She came in and said that she had connections and she was going to have

00:44:03Nellie, Brad Paisley, and Gwen Stefani come to our little 250-seat amphitheater.

00:44:11Kate knew immediately that it sounded too good to be true.

00:44:15Allison started talking about, and Brad Paisley's going to be from this time to this time,

00:44:20and Nellie from this time to this time.

00:44:21She started Googling the artists and saw they were booked to be in other places the day of the fundraiser.

00:44:27I'm telling her these things, and she goes, oh my God, I'm going to message their PR people right now.

00:44:33And she gets on her phone and starts, you know, typing away.

00:44:36And I said, you're messaging their PR people right now?

00:44:38She was like, yeah.

00:44:39She's like, I can't believe this.

00:44:40And I said, let me see.

00:44:43And she needed to go to the bathroom.

00:44:46And she went to the restroom.

00:44:47Did she come back?

00:44:49She did not.

00:44:50Kate was convinced Allison was planning some kind of scam.

00:44:54And the ease with which Allison pitched her A-list lineup told her this wasn't the first.

00:45:00With a degree in criminology, Kate trusted her instincts and began investigating Allison's past.

00:45:06You made it your mission to start warning people about her.

00:45:09Absolutely.

00:45:10I made a Facebook post that had every scam I could find about her, and I left that public.

00:45:17Which is how she and James connected.

00:45:20But what they knew about Allison was just the beginning.

00:45:23You find some posts that are taking your suspicions to a whole new level.

00:45:29Oh, yes.

00:45:42By the time Kate and James started comparing notes about Allison Salinas in 2022,

00:45:48Kate had posted her story about the fundraiser on Facebook.

00:45:52In response, she heard from dozens of people with similar allegations about Allison.

00:45:57Over the years, there's been so much more that's come out, and she's never stopped.

00:46:00Right.

00:46:01Your allegation is she would organize a fundraiser, promise big names, sell tickets, then not deliver.

00:46:06Absolutely.

00:46:07I want to talk about this gala for the men and women in uniform.

00:46:11Allison was to host a charity gala honoring first responders as part of her Senate campaign.

00:46:16She booked the event with venue director Patty Green.

00:46:19So this was the event space.

00:46:22This was the event space, what it was to look like with the red, white, and blue.

00:46:28She wanted it very nice, over the top.

00:46:31I mean, it was all orchestrated perfectly because she had down to the menus what they were going to do.

00:46:38All those little touches.

00:46:39Exactly.

00:46:40Tickets sold for $125.

00:46:43Allison said proceeds would go to local first responders.

00:46:46But a few days before the event, Patty says she started getting calls from concerned guests.

00:46:51What were they asking?

00:46:52They were saying, is this event really happening?

00:46:54Because, you know, we're not getting any information from her.

00:46:56She's not returning our phone calls.

00:46:58And are you trying to reach out to her again?

00:47:00Oh, yes.

00:47:01So then she just, she wouldn't answer my phone calls.

00:47:04She wouldn't answer my e-mails.

00:47:06So she's ghosting you.

00:47:07Yeah, 100% ghosted at that point.

00:47:08And there's this big event that is supposed to happen.

00:47:11Absolutely.

00:47:12According to the contract, Allison owed the venue nearly $10,000.

00:47:17She asked me to be her public relations manager.

00:47:20Brandi Dunn says she worked on Allison's Senate campaign for months.

00:47:24She and her husband, Michael, were also supposed to work the gala.

00:47:28Were either of you paid for your work?

00:47:30Never.

00:47:31Not a dime?

00:47:31Not a single dime.

00:47:33How much money were you owed?

00:47:34$12,000.

00:47:36The Dunns sued Allison, hoping to recover their losses.

00:47:40Allison's campaign released a statement contesting the amount.

00:47:44The suit is still pending.

00:47:46So my name is Allison, and I'm a four-time cancer survivor.

00:47:49And remember how Allison asked James for money for her cancer treatments?

00:47:52Kate thinks it's all part of a con.

00:47:55My daughter, Mary, she is completely in love with Post Malone.

00:47:58And I just want to see if anybody can get this out to him and give him a shout-out

00:48:02so he'll see it.

00:48:03She would love to see him.

00:48:04You claim she used the cancer to get perks.

00:48:07Absolutely.

00:48:07So she got VIP treatment at Tiffany's concert?

00:48:11She got VIP treatment.

00:48:12She definitely did.

00:48:13You could see her with the singers.

00:48:15On stage, behind stage.

00:48:18Allison has said publicly that she's beaten several types of cancer.

00:48:22You believe Allison was lying about her cancer?

00:48:27Allison can't even keep track of how many times Allison's had cancer.

00:48:30Every time something goes wrong, she has cancer.

00:48:33So she stopped the Senate campaign because she had cancer.

00:48:36She stopped the bakery because she had cancer.

00:48:39The bakery, as in the Busy Bees Bakery, a business Allison started after her failed Senate run, with financial backing

00:48:47from family.

00:48:48The bakery, not the best reviews all the time?

00:48:51It was dead in the water before she opened.

00:48:54So you think she wasn't, they weren't even making the products?

00:48:5790% of things, no.

00:48:59And the ones that she did make, you can tell she made them.

00:49:03It looks like a three-year-old helped.

00:49:06Busy Bees closed after a few months.

00:49:09Family members who invested in the bakery say Allison lied to them about the business and has yet to repay

00:49:14their money.

00:49:15And former employees filed claims with the State Department of Labor saying they were never paid.

00:49:20Allison defended herself on the local news.

00:49:23I told them I would figure it out and make sure their time was what it was and I would

00:49:28give back to them.

00:49:29No, I didn't give them the time because I don't know how long it's going to take.

00:49:32Allison's criminal record shows one conviction for theft by deception in the state of Illinois,

00:49:36as well as convictions for theft and forgery in Texas.

00:49:41Kate was keeping track of other allegations against Allison and digging around in her past.

00:49:46You find some posts that are taking your suspicions to a whole new level.

00:49:52Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

00:49:54Both Kate and James saw news reports about the murder of Patricia Lee Mills down in Texas.

00:49:59You see people mentioning this murder on social media.

00:50:03Allison had already told you about it.

00:50:05Yes.

00:50:07So you're reading about it and then she's told you her story.

00:50:10How are things adding up to you?

00:50:14Things did not add up.

00:50:15And then I found the court documents where a lot of the testimony was discussed.

00:50:22And, yeah, it was clear she had lied to me.

00:50:25What James saw contradicted what Allison had been telling him about her relationship with Delbert.

00:50:30Delbert, she's telling you that she only got involved with him after his wife died.

00:50:36Yes.

00:50:36She told me that she met Delbert Mills a month after the fire.

00:50:40Kate's background in criminology drove her to build a timeline.

00:50:44I ended up going back and looking up the dates of her marriage.

00:50:49And with it being within 90 days of his wife dying, you know, she had a hand in it.

00:50:57You believe that.

00:50:58Firmly.

00:51:00It was quite a leap from con artist to potential killer.

00:51:05Investigators back in Texas could never prove it.

00:51:08But for Kate and James, what happened next made their suspicions hard to ignore.

00:51:14She surprises you with a big ask.

00:51:17She did.

00:51:18I'm never going to be able to rest and be happy unless he's just somehow gone.

00:51:39James Turrentine believed Allison Salinas was a con artist.

00:51:43And he wondered if his high school ex was more involved in that murder down in Texas than she let

00:51:48on.

00:51:48Did you confront her with that at all?

00:51:51No.

00:51:52Why not?

00:51:54Because I wanted to maintain the status quo with her to where she felt that she could trust me and

00:51:59tell me if she was planning any kind of new scams, what was going on with her.

00:52:04James says Allison texted and called him relentlessly for months.

00:52:07A lot of the discussion was about her husband, Patrick.

00:52:11What was she saying?

00:52:12She said that he didn't pay any bills, that he didn't really work very much.

00:52:17She referred to him as stupid as though that was his actual name.

00:52:21You say she love-bombed you?

00:52:23Yes.

00:52:23How so?

00:52:24That I was the gold standard, that I was the one.

00:52:28She painted a very romantic picture.

00:52:30Allison also texted selfies to James.

00:52:33Regular selfies?

00:52:34Any suggestive pictures trying to win you over?

00:52:39She did in fact send me nudes, if that's what you're asking.

00:52:42And did you ever bite or...?

00:52:45No.

00:52:46Never?

00:52:46No.

00:52:47But yet she believed that I was in love with her.

00:52:50She sounds like she's right out of a Lifetime movie.

00:52:52She does.

00:52:54And like a lot of Lifetime movies, things took a very dark turn.

00:52:58She surprises you with a big ask.

00:53:01She did.

00:53:03She wanted me to kill her husband.

00:53:07Patrick, the husband she'd been complaining about.

00:53:10How does this even come up?

00:53:13It started with subtle remarks.

00:53:16Things like, I wish he would just go away and never come back.

00:53:21And it progressed from there into full-blown conversations about orchestrating this man's death.

00:53:27If she is being truthful, her husband's life could be on the line.

00:53:32It is.

00:53:33She sent me a picture of him and said, there's your pick you need.

00:53:37As though that's what I need to know who he is, what he looks like, so that I can go

00:53:42up there and kill him.

00:53:42What did you say to her when she asked you to do this?

00:53:46I told her I'm not going to kill him.

00:53:47And she, at that point, instead wanted me to find someone else and hire that person to kill him.

00:53:55This is Officer Williamson, the Pekin Police.

00:53:57Just, you know, my body camera's on.

00:53:59James reached out to police in Pekin, Illinois and spent more than 15 minutes telling an officer the story.

00:54:05She's like, well, you know, you have some money.

00:54:08Why don't you, you know, hire me a hitman or something like that?

00:54:12It needed to look like an accident and it couldn't be traced to her.

00:54:16Do you know if she has any, like, mental disabilities or, you know, anything of that nature?

00:54:27I'm trying to figure out the seriousness of this.

00:54:32So, to be perfectly honest with you, so I'm not a medical professional, but I do have my own suspicions.

00:54:38I'm going to document, you know, everything that you're telling me.

00:54:41But, you know, my advice to you would be not contact her at all anymore.

00:54:46I would just block her number.

00:54:50I can block her, but, you know, here again, if I do that, I think she's going to know something's

00:54:55up.

00:54:55I don't want to give her a reason to come down and, you know, cause problems for me in Texas

00:55:00or, you know, who knows, whatever else.

00:55:03Yeah. Well, if you don't want to cause any issues by blocking her, then just don't respond to her.

00:55:07I mean, blocking her calls, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's just over.

00:55:13Yeah. That's not an end.

00:55:15She can just find someone else.

00:55:18Absolutely, she can.

00:55:19If James was waiting for the Pekin police to take immediate action, he was in for a disappointment.

00:55:25Months went by and I never heard back from anyone.

00:55:29And it was at that point that I came to the understanding that I was on my own.

00:55:35He did have Kate on his side, and together they wondered if Allison's own words might get investigators' attention.

00:55:42So James developed a plan.

00:55:44Use an app on his cell phone to secretly record his conversations with her.

00:55:53Once James hit record, it wasn't long before Allison was offering detailed scenarios about how to kill her husband, Patrick.

00:56:00Yeah, it's not about the fact that he's allergic to selfish, but even that's too iffy.

00:56:06Huh.

00:56:07Because it takes a while for it to react, so he would have time to get help.

00:56:12So instead, she suggested luring Patrick to a remote location where a hitman would be waiting.

00:56:18I have to position him in a place where there's nobody at, but something happens.

00:56:23Right.

00:56:24And if there's anything involved with gunshot, there would have to be a silence, so there's no sound.

00:56:29Mm-hmm.

00:56:29And the shot would have to be just right.

00:56:32Right.

00:56:33Once again, Allison asked James to find a killer.

00:56:36I need your help finding someone.

00:56:39Huh.

00:56:42Well, that's not guaranteed.

00:56:43I mean, it's not like I have assassins on speed dial, you know what I mean?

00:56:47I know that.

00:56:49She chuckled, like, this is just such a laughable situation.

00:56:54There was nothing funny about it.

00:56:55On these recordings, she's very calm and collected and matter-of-fact.

00:57:01Like, she's having a conversation about where you should go eat lunch.

00:57:06Yeah.

00:57:06It was very callous the way she discussed these things.

00:57:09I don't know what it's going to cost.

00:57:11Am I up to social?

00:57:12I don't know.

00:57:14But I'll do what I got to do.

00:57:16Allison seemed to be thinking of all the angles.

00:57:19She suggested they start to withdraw cash in small increments to pay a hitman, a strategy

00:57:24to avoid suspicion.

00:57:26First time, you do, like, $60 or $80 or $100 even.

00:57:32Right.

00:57:33Don't keep the amount the same.

00:57:35Because then that looks suspicious.

00:57:37And over time, you've pulled out $40, $50 here, $100 here.

00:57:43Eventually, you have that $5,000 in cash now.

00:57:46She talks on these recordings that you have about how important it is that it not trace back.

00:57:54And she gets very detailed.

00:57:57The first thing she wanted to discuss was how she would alibi out.

00:58:02She always had to have that plausible deniability every time.

00:58:07That was first and foremost on her mind.

00:58:09Like, whatever is going to happen, it has to happen, number one, when I'm at work.

00:58:14Mm-hmm.

00:58:16Or somewhere else where I can f***ing verify that I'm there.

00:58:20A work alibi was familiar to Allison.

00:58:24Her ex, Delbert, used it himself when Patricia Lee died in that fire.

00:58:28Allison also talked about the role she would have to play if and when the plan succeeded.

00:58:33The only thing that's going to suck is I have to go through the whole mourning process and all the

00:58:38whole f***ing crying and the whole widow process.

00:58:42You can hear her complaining that she'll have to be the grieving widow?

00:58:46Mm-hmm.

00:58:47She said that she would have to act like she was upset, and it would all just be an act.

00:58:53What do you think when you hear all of these things that are being said on these calls?

00:59:00I knew that she was a terrible person.

00:59:03I didn't know that she was that heartless when she said,

00:59:06I'm going to have to play the grieving widow for a while and oh, boo-hoo.

00:59:11And it was just so cold.

00:59:13I'm never going to be able to rest and be happy.

00:59:17Unless he's just somehow gone.

00:59:20Allison had no idea James had recorded the calls.

00:59:24But she was about to find out, along with thousands of strangers who would hear every word.

00:59:30Not to mention a few people back in Texas who knew Allison all too well.

00:59:35My initial thought, really, was karma.

00:59:52In the years after his father's conviction for his mother's murder,

00:59:56John Michael struggled to find his way.

00:59:59There was substance abuse.

01:00:02I mean, that's how I dealt with it.

01:00:04I was trying to run from my problems, and that's the way it happened.

01:00:09He eventually got clean, got married, and had two daughters.

01:00:13I'm not the easiest to deal with.

01:00:16But my wife does a very, very good job at it.

01:00:19And I'm pretty sure every step of the way, my mom is there helping her.

01:00:24John Michael had lost track of Allison, the woman he always suspected had a hand in his mother's murder.

01:00:30He had no idea that two complete strangers had become obsessed with exposing Allison's plot to kill her husband.

01:00:38It can't go down as a homicide.

01:00:41It can't go down as anything but an accident.

01:00:45James and Kate's mission had reached a tipping point.

01:00:48They thought they'd recorded enough evidence to put Allison in prison for a long time.

01:00:53But since police hadn't taken an interest in the case,

01:00:56James put together highlights of the calls, and Kate posted them on Facebook.

01:01:01Something's gonna happen to him.

01:01:04Because that's my only way out.

01:01:06None of you know me.

01:01:08James also used an AI-generated voiceover on the clip

01:01:11to suggest this might not be the first time Allison was involved in a murder plot.

01:01:15I can't help but notice some similarities between my situation

01:01:19and the murder of Patricia Mills in Victoria, Texas.

01:01:22Within a couple hours, we had 7,000 views, and then it just kept going.

01:01:27Most importantly, presumably the police are going to see this video.

01:01:32Yes.

01:01:33And hear about it.

01:01:34I tagged them in the post.

01:01:37Oh, that'll do it.

01:01:39That'll do it.

01:01:40Thirty-six hours after that video was uploaded,

01:01:42I got a phone call from Detective Palmer with Pekin PD.

01:01:46There you go.

01:01:47Hello?

01:01:48Hi, this is Detective Palmer with the Pekin Police Department.

01:01:52I have to let you know just my phone calls are recorded.

01:01:55Okay.

01:01:56I'm not sure why.

01:01:57It was never followed up on before,

01:01:59but I am very, very interested in

01:02:04all of what was going on in this situation.

01:02:07She apologized to me for them not taking it seriously before.

01:02:14She said that she had been assigned to the case

01:02:15and that she was going to investigate.

01:02:18Now you had their attention.

01:02:19Mm-hmm.

01:02:20I'm sorry that it took this long for us to, you know,

01:02:23jump on the information.

01:02:24It definitely fell through the cracks and shouldn't have,

01:02:28but I am going to do my best to look into all of it.

01:02:33This time, the police moved at warp speed.

01:02:35In a matter of just days,

01:02:37the detective had done a deep dive into Alison Salinas,

01:02:40listening to the recordings,

01:02:42interviewing James and Kate,

01:02:44and reading up on the murder of Patricia Lee.

01:02:46And I appreciate how...

01:02:48On July 22, 2025, Alison came in for an interview.

01:02:52I just want to make sure that you understand

01:02:54the severity of how things could have played out.

01:02:59Oh, I do.

01:03:00I'm not oblivious to what could have happened,

01:03:03and I'm really glad it didn't.

01:03:05I don't want harm to come to anybody,

01:03:07and I really don't.

01:03:09Like, words were coming out of my mouth,

01:03:11and it was just words.

01:03:13When you say it's, like, just words coming out, though,

01:03:15you were thinking through all of the possible ways

01:03:19that, like, you could get caught.

01:03:22Like, you were thinking through all of those minute details.

01:03:26Like, that's the part that alarmed me.

01:03:29Well, and that would alarm anybody.

01:03:32But...

01:03:32Yeah.

01:03:34I definitely didn't mean any of it.

01:03:38It looks like you were talking with...

01:03:40about the possibility of finding somebody to murder your husband.

01:03:44That's what it, at least...

01:03:47That's what it looks like in the moment.

01:03:48In that moment.

01:03:49I get that.

01:03:50But understand, I don't want anybody to be hurt.

01:03:54Ever.

01:03:54There's still consequences for having, like, those conversations.

01:03:59So, the seriousness behind how you were in the context...

01:04:05At this point, you're under arrest.

01:04:13Federal.

01:04:14Speaking PD, one female.

01:04:16Solicitation of murder.

01:04:17She's compliant.

01:04:19How are you feeling because of what you did?

01:04:21She has now been arrested.

01:04:23I felt a sense of relief.

01:04:25I thought, this will finally be over.

01:04:28I have a side of nerves.

01:04:29Patricia Lee's sister, Sharon, died two years earlier.

01:04:31But others and her family found poetic justice in Allison's arrest.

01:04:36My initial thought, really, when I saw what the charges were, was karma.

01:04:43Yeah.

01:04:44It may have not been for her part in my aunt's murder,

01:04:49but at least there was something coming to her, finally.

01:04:53You had one question after Allison's arrest in 2025.

01:04:58Mm-hmm.

01:04:59What's the statute of limitations on murder?

01:05:02You're thinking about your mom.

01:05:04Always.

01:05:05Always will be.

01:05:07Incredibly, the one person Allison chose to call after her arrest

01:05:10was her husband, Patrick.

01:05:13Yes, Patrick.

01:05:15The man she was accused of plotting to kill.

01:05:23Patrick has stood by Allison.

01:05:26He agreed to sit down with us to defend his wife.

01:05:31I don't believe what they say.

01:05:32I don't believe that she is a bad person.

01:05:36She's put me in front of everything, even our kids sometimes.

01:05:40So, therefore, I have no reason to believe that this is where her true heart is.

01:05:46She's your ride or die.

01:05:48Mm-hmm.

01:05:49We've been through so much, and we're still here.

01:05:54There are going to be people saying,

01:05:55come on, Patrick, you know, wake up.

01:05:58How can you defend this woman?

01:06:00How can you defend your wife?

01:06:01When it's right there, you know, in these calls, these things she's saying.

01:06:06What is your response to that?

01:06:09You don't know her.

01:06:13They don't know her.

01:06:14Nobody knows her the way that I do.

01:06:17To him, Allison was a victim of James.

01:06:21I don't have anything bad to say about Allison,

01:06:25and I haven't listened to none of those tapes.

01:06:28It's not necessary.

01:06:29I already know what's going on here.

01:06:30You're never going to listen to it.

01:06:32I'm not going to.

01:06:33It's not, there's no reason for it.

01:06:35He was selectively talking to her and trying to manipulate her

01:06:38and get in her head.

01:06:39He got in her head.

01:06:40To the point to where she started talking about this stuff.

01:06:44Patrick says Allison was manipulated.

01:06:47What would she say to us?

01:06:50There are some people who feel that

01:06:52if you're capable of asking James to kill Patrick,

01:06:58that you were capable of asking Delbert to kill Patricia Lee.

01:07:19For Allison Salinas, it was a dramatic fall.

01:07:23Once an entrepreneur and Senate candidate,

01:07:25she was now charged with plotting to kill her husband, Patrick.

01:07:28From behind bars, she agreed to talk to us.

01:07:32I didn't want to hurt my husband, not truly.

01:07:36I didn't want anything bad to happen to him.

01:07:38He says that he is with you forever, despite it all, that you were his ride or die.

01:07:44Aw, that's my baby.

01:07:47You do love your husband?

01:07:50Very much.

01:07:51He's my soulmate.

01:07:53Allison says she was going through a rough time with Patrick

01:07:55when she first reached out to her old high school boyfriend, James.

01:07:59I didn't ask for anything, except for him to be nice, for him to be loving.

01:08:06That's all I wanted, is I wanted to be loved.

01:08:10James says that you initiated, you know, the possibility of being together,

01:08:17that it was you, that you love-bombed him,

01:08:19you sent him nude photographs of yourself,

01:08:25and that he wanted nothing to do with a romantic relationship.

01:08:28That's a lie.

01:08:30Um, that's a bold-faced lie.

01:08:32Wow, okay.

01:08:34Allison says she went to Texas, where they consummated their romance in a hotel room.

01:08:38James says that never happened.

01:08:40He was able to manipulate my feelings.

01:08:43He played on my emotions.

01:08:44I mean, you said some pretty bad things in those calls about Patrick.

01:08:54I'm never going to be able to rest and be happy unless he's just somehow gone.

01:08:57You talked about using a silencer, you know, that he's allergic to shellfish.

01:09:03Maybe it could look like he had an allergic reaction and died.

01:09:06Yeah, those were all things that James brought up and he made me believe.

01:09:09But in my head, you're going to understand my mental stability at that point, too.

01:09:13That plays a big part.

01:09:15I've been on medication most of my life.

01:09:17Allison, you do know what was said on those calls looks bad.

01:09:20Just because it looks bad doesn't mean that that's the whole story.

01:09:24And people need to know what really happened.

01:09:26People need to know the manipulation.

01:09:30In Illinois, the charge against Allison was about a theoretical murder.

01:09:34But as for the actual murder in Texas committed by her ex, Delbert Mills?

01:09:39That was a horrible, horrible situation.

01:09:42Delbert is probably the worst human being I've ever met.

01:09:47The family says you started this affair before Patricia Lee died.

01:09:53See, that's not true.

01:09:56We didn't start seeing each other until shortly after and got married three months after.

01:10:05That ended up being one of my worst mistakes.

01:10:08Did you have any involvement in the murder of Patricia Lee?

01:10:12Absolutely not.

01:10:14Absolutely not.

01:10:15That was horrible what happened to her.

01:10:17And that little boy did not deserve to lose his mother.

01:10:20Can you see, though, the similarities between the two cases?

01:10:25You're the common thread.

01:10:27See, I don't see it like that, though.

01:10:29I see it like I had problems with my husband and some other man stepped in and played Night

01:10:37in Shining Armor, but I never really wanted to hurt my husband.

01:10:40There are some people who feel that if you're capable of asking James to kill Patrick, that

01:10:48you were capable of asking Delbert to kill Patricia Lee.

01:10:53No.

01:10:56Not at all.

01:10:57To me, that's an insane thought.

01:10:59Because I don't want my husband dead.

01:11:01I never wanted him hurt.

01:11:02I never wanted anything to happen to him.

01:11:04Allison claims the charges against her are tainted because of something very ugly she learned

01:11:09about James.

01:11:10You say that James is not to be trusted.

01:11:14Well, yeah, I know that now.

01:11:16Yeah.

01:11:16You have specific reasons for saying that.

01:11:21James is, I found out he's a registered sex offender, and I found out he lied to me for

01:11:26two years.

01:11:28Allison and Patrick brought up something very sensitive.

01:11:33That you, James, are a convicted sex offender and that you are not to be trusted.

01:11:40Okay.

01:11:42So, 20 years ago, I was charged with a sexual offense, and when I completed probation, the

01:11:50charge against me was dismissed.

01:11:51I am not a convicted felon.

01:11:53They claim that you essentially manipulated a young girl to get what you wanted.

01:12:00That you are capable of manipulating anybody, including Allison.

01:12:07I choose to do the right thing because it's the right thing to do.

01:12:10Yes, there is something terrible that I did in my past.

01:12:14I've done right by society since then.

01:12:17This was a very serious thing that you did.

01:12:21Yes, it was.

01:12:23You know, I made the decisions that brought me to the situation that I'm in today.

01:12:40James says he was never the mastermind trying to convince Allison to kill her husband,

01:12:44and the recordings of their conversations prove it.

01:12:47He says Allison, with her long history of alleged cons, is the real manipulator.

01:12:52You've been accused of taking money from firefighters, police, veterans, duping the people all around

01:12:59you for money.

01:13:04What do you want to know other than I didn't do it?

01:13:07I mean, there are many, many, many accusations.

01:13:12Accusations.

01:13:13So, you've never stolen a dollar from anyone?

01:13:17No.

01:13:18No, no.

01:13:20And it's just, then just everyone else is lying but you?

01:13:24It's not everyone's lying.

01:13:25There's more to the story than that.

01:13:28How's there more to the story?

01:13:30It's a lot of allegations, and nobody can seem to prove anything.

01:13:33It's just allegations.

01:13:35Allison says she is a cancer survivor and denies allegations she faked any illness.

01:13:40I've had cancer, I beat it.

01:13:42That's how there is to clear it up.

01:13:44Allison says Kate is an internet troll out to get her.

01:13:47And James joined in her campaign of spreading lies.

01:13:51They keep replaying the same things to try to keep it in people's head, to make people

01:13:55hate me.

01:13:56When I opened my bakery, my first customer walked up to me and said, I'm in here because

01:14:00of the hate.

01:14:01Kate also said that you sold frozen pastries at the bakery that you didn't even make

01:14:05yourself.

01:14:06First of all, I never once said that I baked everything fresh.

01:14:1190% of what I did make was homemade.

01:14:13Made killer brownies, made killer cookies, made killer cupcakes.

01:14:19That's an interesting choice of words.

01:14:21Well, sorry.

01:14:21Interesting way to describe it.

01:14:22I mean, I don't mean it like that.

01:14:24I mean, they were just very good.

01:14:26No, no.

01:14:27It's just given why we're here.

01:14:28I mean, they were very delicious.

01:14:30What do you say to anyone who feels like you're blaming everybody but yourself?

01:14:37I'm not blaming everybody but myself.

01:14:40I'm filling in the holes that nobody cared to listen to.

01:14:44I just want the truth out there.

01:14:46It's all I want.

01:14:49Hundreds of miles south in a Texas prison, Allison's ex-husband Delbert is also proclaiming

01:14:55his innocence.

01:14:56And after two decades, he's ready to reveal the person he says is responsible for the fire

01:15:02that killed Patricia Lee.

01:15:04You have to know there are going to be people who find what you're saying right now despicable.

01:15:23Charged with solicitation of murder, Allison Salinas was facing a maximum sentence of 30

01:15:29years in prison if convicted.

01:15:31But the state offered a deal, plead guilty in exchange for a lighter sentence.

01:15:36After consulting with her public defender, she took it and is serving a 16-year prison

01:15:41term.

01:15:43You accepted a plea deal?

01:15:45Because I was told I had to.

01:15:47Yes.

01:15:47What was said to you?

01:15:48I was told that if I even thought about having a jury trial, you're going to get 30 years.

01:15:54He scared me into a plea deal.

01:15:56He told me that was my only hope.

01:15:59So I agreed.

01:16:00I feel like it should have been a lot more.

01:16:03I do feel like had she gone to trial, had there been a jury, she would have had a longer

01:16:10sentence.

01:16:12John Michael is glad Allison is behind bars.

01:16:15Karma's a bitch.

01:16:17You get what you deserve.

01:16:18Is she diabolical?

01:16:20Is that how you would describe her?

01:16:22No, that's not.

01:16:24I just use the word evil.

01:16:26Evil.

01:16:27You think she's evil?

01:16:28She is evil.

01:16:29What did you think when you heard that she was indicted in Illinois?

01:16:36Well, I'd like to tell you I was shocked, but I was not.

01:16:40I thought, well, that tracks.

01:16:43That tracks.

01:16:46Delbert Mills, the man D.A. Shepard prosecuted for the murder of Patricia Lee,

01:16:50is serving a life sentence in a prison outside of Amarillo.

01:16:54Why did you decide to sit down and talk with us?

01:16:58To get the true story out there.

01:17:00What is the true story?

01:17:01The true story is I really don't know what happened that day.

01:17:04Did you kill your wife?

01:17:05No, ma'am.

01:17:07I did not.

01:17:07Did Allison have anything to do with the death of your wife?

01:17:11That I do not know.

01:17:12I was not there.

01:17:14Despite those claims of ignorance,

01:17:16Delbert says he does know who is responsible for the fire

01:17:19and has kept it a secret for more than two decades.

01:17:23From what I was told by a six-year-old boy,

01:17:25and I swore to him in the back of the ambulance that day,

01:17:27I'd never tell another living soul, but I'm going to tell you.

01:17:30This is your son you're referring to?

01:17:31Yeah, this is my son.

01:17:32He said he set the couch on fire playing with a lighter at the end of it,

01:17:36which probably in turn set the curtains on fire,

01:17:38set the wall on fire that burnt the house down, that killed his mother.

01:17:41So now you're blaming your son?

01:17:43No, I'm not blaming my son.

01:17:44I'm telling you what my son told me when he was six years old in the back of an ambulance.

01:17:48Okay, well, it sounds like you're blaming your son.

01:17:50You have to know there are going to be people who find what you're saying right now despicable.

01:17:54Mm-hmm.

01:17:54Based on all the statements that you made to people about killing Patricia.

01:17:59I know.

01:18:00Now you're saying that you think it was your son.

01:18:04No, I'm telling you what my son told me in the back of an ambulance.

01:18:07Why believe you?

01:18:08Why not believe me?

01:18:10Why not?

01:18:11Because there's witnesses who have said that you told them terrible things about Patricia Lee

01:18:16and that you confessed to starting the fire.

01:18:19I can understand that, too.

01:18:21I didn't do it.

01:18:23I could have been bragging about something I didn't do.

01:18:26Could have been or didn't.

01:18:28Probably did a couple of times.

01:18:30Delbert has professed his innocence for years, but he never implicated his son until now.

01:18:37I swore to him that I'd never tell nobody else.

01:18:39And he's my son, and I'll protect him to my last dying breath.

01:18:42If you're protecting him, why are you telling me?

01:18:45So the truth can be known.

01:18:47You know, your son has been through hell.

01:18:52I know he has.

01:18:53And now you're saying this, and you're acting like you're trying to be this good father,

01:18:56that you're protecting him.

01:18:58And you're not.

01:18:59This is...

01:19:01So basically what you're telling me, I should have said this from the start.

01:19:04I should have told somebody.

01:19:06Well, sure, if it's the truth.

01:19:08This feels so unfair to him to be doing this right now.

01:19:11I have to tell you, as a parent...

01:19:13I know it feels unfair.

01:19:14It feels really awful.

01:19:15Now, I don't know whether it's true or not, or whether he was just scared.

01:19:20But that's what he told me.

01:19:22And that's the only thing I know.

01:19:24I don't think you're going to win father of the year anytime soon, Delbert.

01:19:27I know that, Hank.

01:19:28I ain't trying to win father of the year.

01:19:30If he really wants to know what happened, son, the only thing I can tell you is to get hypnotized,

01:19:36remember that day, and see whether what you told me is true or not.

01:19:41Other than that, I don't know.

01:19:44This sounds like a bunch of bullcrap, Delbert.

01:19:47I know what it sounds like.

01:19:48We showed John Michael what his father said about him.

01:19:51He set the couch on fire playing with a lighter at the end of it.

01:19:57I'm going to stop right there.

01:19:59I feel like I'm done because he's blaming me.

01:20:08After composing himself, John Michael returned.

01:20:11If you can blame a six-year-old for killing his mother when you're the one that actually did it,

01:20:18you don't have a heart.

01:20:21That's the most cold-hearted thing you can do.

01:20:24It's so infuriating.

01:20:29John Michael's anger extends to Allison, too.

01:20:32He'd like to see her prosecuted for his mother's murder.

01:20:35But the current district attorney in Goliad says that won't happen unless credible new evidence emerges.

01:20:41Would you like to see the Goliad district attorney take another look?

01:20:45I say no because it's been so long and we've, you know, we've, we've gone all this time.

01:20:53Yeah.

01:20:54And my aunt deserves to rest in peace.

01:20:59It's been a struggle, but John Michael has found a measure of peace for himself.

01:21:03Your mom would be really proud of you.

01:21:08Yes.

01:21:09You turned your life around.

01:21:10I had to.

01:21:12It was either turn my life around or end up in the ground.

01:21:18These days, John Michael dedicates himself to his role as husband and father

01:21:23and holds tight the memory of his best friend, the mother he lost so many years ago.

01:21:30She was the first person to show me what love was.

01:21:33I mean, how can that not be your best friend?

01:21:40She might not be here physically, but she's, she's here in my mind.

01:21:43She's here in my heart.

01:21:49She's here in my heart.

01:21:50She's here in my heart.

01:21:50I'm Lester Holt.

01:21:52Thanks for joining us.

01:22:02She's here in my heart.

01:22:02You

Dateline NBC - Season 35 - Episode 02: Secrets in the Ashes Eng Sub

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