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Calls are mounting for three Malaysian elephants who were relocated to a zoo in Osaka, Japan, to be brought home, amid growing scrutiny over their welfare and living conditions. But is that necessarily what’s best for them now? And what does proper elephant welfare actually require? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Dr Nurzhafarina Othman, Senior lecturer at Universiti Malaysia Sabah and founder of Project Seratu Aatai. She is also a member of the Technical Working Group that developed the country’s first Captive Elephant Management Plan.
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00:10Hi, welcome back to Consider This. I'm Melissa Idris. Let's continue our discussion about the
00:16three Malaysian elephants, Kelat, Dara and Amoy, who were relocated to a zoo in Osaka, Japan,
00:22sparking concern amongst Malaysians over their well-being and living conditions.
00:29Joining me now on the show is conservation biologist Dr Noor Zafarina Othman, who's a senior lecturer at
00:36University of Malaysia Sabah and she's also the founder of Project Seratu Atai, which is a collective
00:44in Sabah that aims to promote coexistence between elephants and humans. She's also a member of the
00:50technical working group in Sabah that developed the first captive elephant management plan for
00:57Bornean elephants. I'm delighted to have her back on the show. Dr Farina, thank you so much for
01:02joining us today. When elephants cannot be returned to the wild, I'm just wondering
01:07what are the realistic options available and how do we determine which option is actually in their best
01:15interest? Thank you Melissa for having me again. A lot of people want me to comment on this issue. I've
01:24been very very silent, very quiet, just monitoring the situation and I feel it's time for me to also
01:31say something. So thank you for this opportunity. So in this current situation that we have in Malaysia,
01:38it's very very hard if we, we can't avoid to have elephants, you know, that that are bringing into
01:47captivity. In Sabah, for example, we have a lot of cases where we found elephant injured or often elephants.
01:56So in these cases where we can't, the elephant we know can't survive in the wild back in their natural
02:02habitat, you have to bring them back. So when this case happened, it's very important to have a good
02:08facilities to make sure the welfare of this elephant taken care of. I have seen so many facilities around
02:17the world, not only in Malaysia, and I see that everyone wants to try their best to give the best
02:25conditions to elephants to fulfill their needs, their biology, you know, they are intelligent animal,
02:32but it's very very difficult and a lot of challenges. So we can try our best to support, you know,
02:39their
02:39social structure, their intelligence, like I said, they, you know, they need a lot of activities to fulfill
02:49you know, all of this, but we can try our best. Yeah.
02:54So, so, so elephants, there are some elephants who cannot be returned to the world and therefore
02:59captivity is the only other option. And when we think about elephants in captivity, we want to make sure that
03:06they are in the best situation possible. Can you talk to me a little bit about some of the challenges
03:11in
03:11managing elephants in captivity? But let's look at the Malaysian environment, Malaysian case. How well
03:19are we addressing some of those challenges here in Malaysia today? Yeah, the biggest issue when it
03:26comes to elephant in the captivity, whether it's zoos or sanctuary in the space. Elephants require a lot of
03:34space. But you know, in any zoos or any centre, we can provide as best as we can for them,
03:43right? And at the
03:44same time, we also need to think about the social structure. So basically, we have male elephants, female
03:50elephants, then both of these gender, you know, male and female require different kind of social needs, right?
04:00And then we have to think also about, you know, the intelligence. So they require a lot, a lot of
04:08enrichment, for example. So most of the facilities that we have, it is very expensive to provide all of
04:17this. We are talking about the elephant. We have also to think about the keepers, the welfare of the keepers.
04:23We
04:23can't only think about elephants when we need each of the elephants to require at least two mahouts,
04:31two elephant keepers to look after them. And this is 24-7 work, 300, you know, daily. So when we
04:40are
04:40talking about the welfare of elephants, don't forget the welfare of the keepers. So this is very, very
04:46delicate and complicated, Melissa. Okay. So let's talk about this case, Dr. Farina. There was so much
04:53public concern around the welfare of dharah, amoe and kelat. I'm just wondering what that means when we
05:01are concerned about the welfare of an elephant. From the perspective of a conservation biologist,
05:07scientist, what does good welfare for elephants actually require in practice? What would you like
05:13the public to understand about what it takes to provide that good welfare for elephants?
05:20So good elephant welfare actually, when we think about, you know, for elephants, we must look at the
05:29nutrition, for example, right? And also the social structure and how about their wellbeing in terms of
05:40like psychological wellbeing. So they need a lot of original life ethic. We want to avoid all this
05:46behaviour like stressative behaviour. So in order to do this, space and environment is very important
05:55for me, for us to be able to provide this. And like I said, I've been to a lot of
06:02facilities, I can see
06:03there are a lot of improvements, but for sure we can't reach or replicate to the wild, you know, environment
06:13for them. Okay. Your work, Dr. Farina focuses on co-existence, right, between humans and elephants.
06:22Can I ask you what this case has to do or how does it connect to the broader issue of
06:30human-elephant
06:32co-existence and human-elephant conflict? Right. So that's why I think one of the,
06:40one of the, we can't look at individuals, individuals, elephants, Melissa. I feel that this
06:47case we are only talking about the impact of what happened in the wild. We are, we, we tend or
06:56we
06:57hesitate to avoid talking about what the root causes of these elephants are being taken
07:03out from their natural habitat right now. Human-elephant conflict caused by, you know,
07:10fragmentation of the habitats, you know, and we will translocate them, we'll bring them all these
07:20injuries out because they are more contact with people. So it is a very long process. So we tend to
07:28look at issues that for us is tangible, it's easy for us. It's like a low hanging fruit for me,
07:34I feel,
07:35right? If we manage to bring this elephant back, yahoo, we are a success. But how about the other elephants
07:42who are suffering in the wild? So I feel that it's very good. I'm very proud of Malaysian, a lot
07:49of,
07:50you know, public people who are concerned about this issue, but how can we tackle the, the root causes
07:58of this issue? So if I actually just may follow up on that, Dr. Farina, what, what role then should
08:05the
08:05public be playing? What is it that you would like to see, not just the public, but also advocacy groups
08:10who have been very vocal and active, proactive about calling for the return of our, of the three
08:18elephants? What role can we all play that is in a, I guess, constructive and informed way? Right. I feel
08:28that this case, this issue of Dharah, Kelat and Amoy, I think in the issue of Kelat, Dharah and Amoy,
08:38it's highlight another, what a form of human-human conflicts around conservation division. So this
08:46is what I'm also working a lot in, in human wildlife conflicts, right? So you have a different groups of
08:52people, you have the scientists, you have the NGOs, you have the government that really concerned about
08:58elephants, but we have different view on how solution looks like, right? So this is where I feel that
09:06conservation is no longer about managing wildlife, but it's also transparency. It's about managing
09:11expectation, values and things like that. So I feel that for both, for everyone who are concerned about
09:18the fate, the destiny of these three elephants, what we can do right now, for example, so the
09:24government can be more proactive rather than, you know, when there is an issue, then everyone wants
09:30to say anything. So for example, the skeptic elephant management plan by the Sabah government is actually
09:35an action that we are trying to be more proactive. We know that we can't avoid at some point if
09:41you have
09:41to send the brilliant elephants to external facilities, but we make sure we have the standards right now. We have
09:47all the
09:48requirements. We make it in a book so everyone knows that what's the process before we decide to send it
09:54to external facilities. We don't want to do it, but our facilities in Malaysia, we must improve it to the
10:02international standards. And there are a lot of complications to do that. One day, maybe Melissa,
10:08you can come with me. I can bring you everything that we do. We get everyone from, you know,
10:14international bodies to come and advise us on. Don't be shy to get experts to come and advise us on
10:20this.
10:20And for the activists, for public people, yes, we want to have this elephant coming back. But when they
10:26are back, what will we, what will all of us do to support the government, to look, to take, to
10:37look after
10:37the welfare of this elephant? Are we going to do like a fundraising? Because like I said, it's not
10:43only the food, it's the veterinary care. It's the training of the elephant and the welfare of the
10:49keepers. Don't forget, if the keepers are happy, then the elephants will be happy. Remember, imagine
10:55yourself in the shoes of the keepers. They have to work daily, every day, the whole year to make sure.
11:02So
11:02let's think about how we can support the government, solid, you know, more solid action rather than just,
11:09you know, complaining. Yeah. So what would you consider the most ethical, the most responsible
11:15and ethical outcome for this case, Dr. Farina? So I, first of all, I think we should give some time
11:25to the zoo because they have been there. They have been, you know, a long process to put the elephants
11:31in
11:31the crate, a long journey to go to Japan. It's only one month. And let's see, let's keep, you know,
11:40monitor closely how it goes. For example, let's look at how they train our elephants. Are they doing
11:47protected contacts or are they doing a free contact, for example? Give some time. And if we see that,
11:53I'm pretty sure there is like an ethical committee that the government in the Perilistan have
12:00established to monitor, making sure that the welfare of these elephants are taken care of.
12:05So give some time. And then from there, we'll see how it goes. And then if they are, you know,
12:11really, really in a bad condition, then we should bring them back. All right. Dr. Farina, have we ever
12:16done this before? Have we ever sent our Malaysian elephants over to another country? What was that
12:22experience? What lessons can we learn from that? Yeah, we did actually. In 1997, our Bornean elephant,
12:28Chandra, she was found in the oil pump plantation with injuries in her eyes. So at that time,
12:35welfare is still not a big issue yet. So the Sabah government decided and together with Oregon Zoo,
12:42which we are at that time, sister's city, we call it. So we send our elephant over there. And since
12:47the Bornean elephant has been, you know, categorized as a subspecies of Asian elephants,
12:54Chandra is no longer bred with other subspecies of Asian elephants. And she's become our ambassador.
13:00Until now, the Oregon Zoo has came to Sabah every year. They supported our in-situ
13:07consumption activities. And they also provide, you know, trainings to the keeper, sending them to,
13:14you know, to get more experience, for example. So I think we can get something benefit out of this
13:21kind of program if we do it properly from the beginning, transparent, according to the standards.
13:28And our elephants can be ambassadors for their own species in the other country.
13:33So did Chandra's experience inform how Sabah created the Captive Elephant Management Plan?
13:41Did her experience inform how the plan turned out to be?
13:46Exactly, exactly. And through her, we get to know more experts and we learn so much
13:51from this experience, which we then include in the Captive Elephant Management Plan and even improve it further.
13:58All right. Thank you so much for joining me on the show today. That was Dr. Noor Zafarina Uthman there,
14:05wrapping up this episode of Consider This. I'm Melissa Idris, signing off for the evening.
14:09Thank you so much for watching and good night.
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