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All in with Chris Hayes - Season 14 - Episode 07
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00:00Tonight on All In.
00:07The ice incursion in Minnesota continues.
00:14And Americans are rejecting the Trump tactics.
00:19You don't want militarized people in the streets just roaming around, snatching people up.
00:25Are we really going to be the Gestapo? Where's your papers?
00:28Tonight, Congresswoman Ilhan Omar on the siege on her district and Senator Amy Klobuchar on the DOJ exodus over what's
00:36happening in Minnesota.
00:37Then, as the president flips off a heckler for calling him a pedophile protector at the Ford plant,
00:43Paul Krugman on Donald Trump's threat to the Fed and the global economy.
00:49If I had the help of the Fed, it would be easier.
00:52But that jerk will be gone soon.
00:56An All In starts right now.
01:03Good evening from New York. I'm Chris Hayes.
01:05In Minneapolis and across the country, we are seeing a widespread organized nonviolent resistance
01:11to the reign of terror and retribution that Donald Trump's federal agents are bringing to America's neighborhoods.
01:17It's been nearly one week since an ICE agent shot and killed 37-year-old Renee Good in her Honda
01:23Pilot on a quiet residential street as she tried to drive away.
01:27And since then, people in and around Minneapolis have been out in the streets saying,
01:31we are not having it. We do not want you here.
01:34And in response, Trump's armed agents have been absolutely terrorizing their communities.
01:39Just today, in a video shared by the journalist Amanda Moore, who's done great reporting on this,
01:44we saw agents drag a screaming woman out of her own car and throw her to the ground before detaining
01:51her
01:51as she tried to explain that she is disabled and on her way to see a doctor.
02:15They smashed her window. They cut her seatbelt. They pulled her out of the car.
02:19We've seen far too many scenes just like that unfold throughout Minnesota this week in video after video after video.
02:24On Sunday, a number of ICE and CBP agents descended on a gas station in the twin city of St.
02:29Paul.
02:30They started things off by dragging a man out of his car, violently wrestling him to the ground,
02:34and then carrying him off to be detained.
02:37Another man was thrown to the ground as he screamed that he was not resisting
02:40before being carried out by multiple agents.
02:44I'm not resisting!
02:46Hey, I'm not resisting! I'm not resisting!
02:49I'm not resisting!
02:51This is how you spend your life!
02:54Hey, can somebody grab my phone?
02:55Being a cheap JV to stop out!
02:58I got your phone!
02:58That's what you want?
02:59I got your phone!
03:00Who do you need us to contact?
03:02Hey, my girlfriend's right behind you!
03:05Give us a phone number!
03:06My girlfriend's right behind me!
03:08Once you guys get him in, let's get him into Victor 3, okay?
03:11I'm going to Victor 3! That's what they said! Victor 3!
03:14Get up!
03:16Get up!
03:17Get up!
03:21All right, we've got you!
03:23Pick up the stick! Pick up the stick!
03:25Back up, you guys!
03:28Stay back! Stay back!
03:31By the way, just to be clear, as far as we know, the information we have,
03:34this person wasn't, like, a person they were pursuing or looking for
03:37who was accused of a crime or suspected of doing anything violent.
03:40Like, as far as we can tell in a lot of these videos,
03:43these are just people that agents are just seeing and then going after.
03:47Here's another one.
03:48Another gas station in Minneapolis, okay?
03:50We've got video of a federal agent just walking up, harassing a man,
03:55minding his own business, pumping gas,
03:56to determine exactly which kind of American citizen he is.
04:05How do I know you're a citizen?
04:09I can go two ways.
04:10I can take you a...
04:33Do you hear that?
04:34Are you a U.S. citizen or you got naturalized?
04:38To be clear, a citizen of these United States is a citizen of these United States.
04:43There is no tiered citizenship, depending on if you were born here or naturalized.
04:48That's the very promise of this country,
04:50certainly the core promise of the Constitution's 14th Amendment.
04:54But that clearly does not matter to this administration
04:56that doesn't seem to like the 14th Amendment much.
04:59Late last week, we saw agents aggressively detaining two American citizens
05:04working at Target in Richfield, Minnesota,
05:07as one of them implored his co-workers to contact his mother.
05:12Christian, where's the shit?
05:14Christian, do you have anybody who wants to call?
05:16My mom.
05:17What's her number?
05:18That's Christian.
05:19He works with me in tribal.
05:21Stay back.
05:23Where is he?
05:24Where is he?
05:26Christian, just be...
05:28It's okay.
05:34He's a worker.
05:36He's here working.
05:37Do you see this deployment of resources,
05:39this deployment of federal dollars?
05:42A dozen masked armed agents in camouflage
05:46to apprehend a teenage American citizen who works at Target?
05:53If there's any silver lining here at all,
05:56it is that people are absolutely not willing
05:58to tolerate their friends and neighbors being treated this way.
06:01At seemingly every opportunity,
06:03the people of Minnesota
06:06and every other community being occupied by Trump's agents
06:09are telling these agents to their often masked faces that,
06:13to put it very gently,
06:16they're not welcome.
06:17We would like you to move on.
06:19Take, for instance, the poster boy for Trump's incursion,
06:22Senior Border Patrol Officer Greg Bovino.
06:25He received a particularly vulgar greeting
06:28as his phalanx of masked men stood guard outside
06:31while he used a Target bathroom.
06:33A warning about the language here.
06:38You guys are all broke.
06:39Look what you're doing for work.
06:41This is what you want to school for?
06:42You want to school for four years to be an ICE agent?
06:44Is this what your parents would be proud of?
06:46Huh?
06:47You guys are f***ing bums.
06:48What are you doing, man?
06:49You guys are f***ing bums.
06:51All of you guys are f***ing bums.
06:52What are we doing?
06:53F***ing bums.
06:54You, you're a f***er.
06:55This f***ing got problems with f***ing too.
06:56You have to all f***ing.
06:58You can't do a s*** to me.
06:59You can't do a thing to me.
07:00Get the f*** out of here.
07:02Get the f*** out.
07:03Nobody f***ing wants you here.
07:05Get the f*** out of here.
07:07Nobody f***ing wants you here.
07:09That's basically been the tone of most of the free speech of Minneapolis residents directed at these masked men.
07:18Vowing not to let them know a moment of quiet or peace as these masked men terrorized their neighborhoods and
07:25communities.
07:26Again, a warning on the language here.
07:37Get the f*** out of here.
08:01Get the f*** out of here.
08:16Get the f*** out of our city.
08:18I'm not going to get out of your city, number one.
08:20Yes, get the f*** out.
08:22Yes, you clearly.
08:23Oh, what does that say?
08:25We're in patrol.
08:26Yeah, you're a f***ing Nazi.
08:28You weren't for the f***ing orange fascists in chief.
08:31I mean, I got to say, at a purely human level, I can't imagine what is going through the minds,
08:39hearts of these federal agents who are seeing this.
08:43Is it making them question what they're doing?
08:46For some historical context here, what we're seeing, right, random cops just rolling up on people, demanding papers, really bears
08:54striking a resemblance to what British troops did to the American colonists in the run-up to the American Revolution.
09:00I mean, stopping folks in the street, searching and harassing people on a whim, without any due process, basically using
09:07a general warrant to go door to door, no legitimate justification.
09:13And guess what?
09:14In the year 2026, the people of this country did not much like it, don't much like it any more
09:20than they did in the year 1776.
09:24This is breaking through to people in a way that very few Trump scandals have this term.
09:29And there is no sign of the resistance backing down or letting up.
09:34MSNOW contributor Philip Bumps, a data journalist and creator of How to Read This Chart newsletter.
09:37Nicky McCann-Ramirez is a politics reporter for Rolling Stone.
09:41And they join me now.
09:42It's good to have you both here.
09:43Philip, let me start with you because I think you've been spending a lot of time going through these videos
09:46as we have.
09:47And we should just note here that, like, we live in a world in which, like, you really got to
09:51figure out that you verify the videos, that they're taken by who they say, that they show what they say.
09:55I mean, we have been doing all that work internally of a great news organization.
09:59You cannot just trust anything you see online.
10:01I am just struck by the ubiquity and ferocity, nonviolent militants of people's opposition to this, and also the terror
10:12that people are experiencing at their schools, their gas stations, at their homes, everywhere in Minneapolis, right?
10:17Yeah, it's really remarkable.
10:18And I think there are two things that really jump out to me.
10:20The first is the subgenre of videos that is out there now, which is ICE officers throwing Rene Goodes' killing
10:27in people's faces and saying, did you not see what happened last week as a threat?
10:31There are multiple examples of them doing that, which is striking.
10:34This is them having killed a person and then saying, do you want to be like that person?
10:39That, I think, cannot go unacknowledged.
10:41The other thing is it's important to remember that as we watch these videos, and I think the example of
10:46the guy at the gas station or the naturalized citizen was a great example.
10:49Like, what's the point?
10:50Like, what are they even doing?
10:52Who are they getting rid of?
10:53Like, it's literally just people off the street.
10:55Like, it's not as though this is being done because there is this cadre of murderers that's sitting in Minneapolis.
11:01It's being done because Donald Trump just wants to get rid of immigrants.
11:03And I think that is important to remember.
11:05It's being done for one more reason, I would submit.
11:07I suspect you would agree, Nikki, is for the content.
11:11I mean, this is what I think is interesting, right?
11:12So part of this is, you know, Bovino, they like the show, right?
11:17And we had that example where they raided an apartment building on the south side of Chicago with Apache helicopters,
11:23rappelled down, right?
11:24Then they cut a big video together.
11:26What I think is interesting, Nikki, and I'm curious what you make of it, is they think this makes them
11:30look strong and intimidating.
11:32And I think the result of the last week of this is that this makes them look terrible, and it
11:37is absolutely alienating the general public.
11:39Absolutely. Much of the Trump administration's strategy over the past year has quite literally been to play to Twitter, play
11:46to their most rabid, most in-tune online supporters, and take that as an endorsement writ large by the country
11:54of their actions.
11:55And I think something that I feel we really need to point out is even going back to very early
12:00in the administration, when the operation to send Venezuelan migrants to SECOT was filmed and distributed in a propaganda reel
12:09much the same way as Bukele.
12:10That was at the very beginning of Trump's term.
12:13Last year was the deadliest year for people in ICE custody in two decades.
12:19This is not just about filming content.
12:22The things we are seeing happening right now in Minneapolis, so many of those videos, so many of those people
12:27that are being dragged out of their cars, threatened with death, asked for their papers, their citizens, their residents, it
12:32pales in comparison to what's going on in ICE detention facilities.
12:37That we don't have cameras, yes.
12:38Because that's what they don't want to show the public.
12:41And we've also got, we've started to hear some stories coming out of ICE detention, particularly in Minneapolis, but we've
12:46had other places.
12:47It also strikes me that you're seeing, you know, if the idea was, to the point you're making about listing
12:53these federal agents invoke Renee Goode as a, like, better behave yourself, it's having the opposite effect.
12:59And it's not just folks on the street.
13:02I mean, the public opinion, you've got three different polls out today.
13:04We've got YouTube, I think Quinnipiac, and one other, if I'm not mistaken.
13:08The numbers are pretty shocking across the board.
13:11Yeah.
13:11I mean, majority saying they think the force was unjustified, majority saying that, you know, ICE should be either abolished
13:19or reduced in size, abolish ICE being a 50-50 proposition, 43-42.
13:24What do you make of what is, what the sort of popular reaction is to what we're seeing play out
13:29on tape?
13:30No, I think you summarized it well, right?
13:31The YouGov poll in particular is very striking, that for the first time that I have seen abolish ICE, actually,
13:36is above the, you know, maintain ICE position, 46-43, if I remember.
13:41This is all broadly unpopular.
13:43But, again, to your point about content creation, Donald Trump has never been about being popular broadly.
13:49He lies and says everyone loves him, which isn't true.
13:51He's always been about having his base be loyal, having his base stick with him.
13:54And they have drawn a very, very clear line in the sand on this, which is you are going to
13:59agree with this.
13:59You are going to agree that Rene Good deserved it.
14:02You are going to agree that what you're seeing is what ought to happen.
14:04And everything that they're doing, all the content they produce is aimed at reinforcing that, that we are the guys,
14:09we're the tough guys, we're the ones doing it, so that he maintains his base, so that his base continues
14:13to put pressure on Republicans, so that Republicans don't go sideways on Trump.
14:16You know, the invocation I had of 1776 in the monologue is intentional, because I think one of the things
14:22that defines a free country is, like, you can stand in front of a federal agent and be like, get
14:26the F out of my neighborhood.
14:27Yeah.
14:27It's like, it's not something I would say.
14:29I'm a pretty genteel guy.
14:32But that's part of being a free society.
14:34Another example of a free society is Donald Trump goes to the Ford plant today.
14:37I mean, I'm serious.
14:38This is what, like, and again, this is like, this isn't just some trivial thing.
14:41This is what the whole fight is about.
14:43Like, do we live in the kind of country where you can do this or not?
14:45And a worker screams at him and calls him a pedophile protector, and he flips the worker off before walking
14:53away.
14:53I think we have this footage.
14:55Play that for me.
15:00Maybe not.
15:02Sorry, we need a second.
15:04So he goes to the Ford plant.
15:06Afterwards, the White House says a lunatic was wildly screaming expletives in a complete fit of rage.
15:11The president gave an appropriate and unambiguous response.
15:14Here it is.
15:19Someone's screaming pedophile protector.
15:21Again, their whole thing is project strength, project popularity, only care about the base.
15:26But that's not the reality out in the world.
15:29No, not at all.
15:30And I think at every turn, whether it's the Epstein scandal, the way ICE is behaving, Trump's economic policies,
15:38the actions of the administration betray a lack of discipline that I think people can really see.
15:44Phil and I were talking about this in the green room earlier.
15:46If you want to make the Epstein scandal go away, which it seems the Trump administration very much wants to
15:51do, the way you don't do that is flipping off someone who calls you a pedophile protector on camera.
15:57And it's just a sign that this administration, the same way the president can't help himself from getting in front
16:03of a camera and just crafting policy right off the bat from screaming at reporters,
16:07the same way this administration is allowing ideological goons to join a Gestapo force with virtually no training.
16:15The way this administration is constantly trying to throw Band-Aids on top of mistake after mistake after mistake.
16:22Those kinds of actions have consequences.
16:25And I think the American people, I think your 1776 comparison is particularly apt because as someone who grew up
16:31in a very conservative family,
16:33one of the core ideological principles of conservatives is the thing you need to be wary about is government repression.
16:40Yes, exactly.
16:40That one day the government will come for you.
16:42And that Joe Rogan clip we play at the top, he's got a longer monologue.
16:45Everybody says, like, this is kind of a nightmare, right?
16:47When people kind of do this, Philip Bump, Nikki McCamery, it's great to have you both here.
16:51Coming up, Minnesota Congresswoman Ilhan Omar, whose district is where Renee Good was shot and killed on the resistance to
16:57ICE outside of Minnesota, in D.C. and across the country.
17:00That's next.
17:03And then I can also see the point of view of the people who say, yeah, but you don't want
17:06militarized people in the streets just roaming around,
17:10snatching people up, many of which turn out to actually be U.S. citizens.
17:13They just don't have their papers on them.
17:15Are we really going to be the Gestapo?
17:17Where's your papers?
17:18Is that what we've come to?
17:20I'm seeing many Americans across the country express a sentiment similar to the one that Joe Rogan proposes there.
17:26In fact, just today, YouGov released a poll showing more Americans now support abolishing ICE altogether than are opposed by
17:34a 3 percent margin.
17:35It's a slogan that many would have considered politically toxic just a few years ago.
17:39In fact, many did.
17:40And now seems to resonate with voters, thanks in no small part to Trump and his allies on the right,
17:45overplaying their anti-immigration hand.
17:49Congresswoman Ilhan Omar represents Minneapolis, and Renee Nicole Good was one of her constituents, and she joins me now.
17:56So, Congresswoman, first let me just ask about how your district is doing and what you have been hearing from
18:02the people you represent in that district over the past several days.
18:09Thank you so much, Chris, for having me.
18:12The district really is on edge.
18:15People are angry.
18:16People are frustrated.
18:17They're confused.
18:18They don't understand why this chaos is necessary, and they certainly do not want this level of militarized ICE and
18:30border agents just roaming the streets, harassing and terrorizing their neighbors.
18:36I read an article today in the Chicago Tribune that had a lead that was about a woman in Minneapolis
18:42who had federal agents knock on her door, asking her to identify the Hmong folks in her neighborhood and Asian
18:51folks in her neighborhood, if she could point them out.
18:55You represent a very diverse and remarkably mixed area.
19:01What does it do to do to a community to have the federal government doing that kind of ethnic, racial
19:08stalking?
19:12Yeah, it's traumatizing.
19:14The level of terror people are experiencing is interrupting their ability to lead their lives in a normal way.
19:24We've had schools that have been canceled.
19:27We have businesses that are closing because they don't want ICE terrorizing their customers.
19:35There are a lot of people who are very much scared to go grocery shopping or visit a friend.
19:44A lot of the community is organizing itself to try to deliver food to people who are feeling that way.
19:52And so this is not only impacting folks who are immigrants, but it is having an impact on every single
20:01person.
20:02The president, once again today, reiterated a bunch of really kind of gutter racist claims about Somalians, Somali-Americans, including
20:11yourself.
20:12I'm not going to play it because it's just too gross to air.
20:16How much do you feel like this animus towards you, towards Somali-Americans, is driving this entire now deadly spectacle?
20:28I do think that he has a target on the backs of Somalis.
20:36Unfortunately, when they came into Minneapolis, they didn't find what they thought that they would find.
20:43What they found was a community that is probably 99 percent legally in this country, many of them who are
20:51citizens, nearly 60 percent of them born in the United States.
20:56And so because they can't fulfill this promise that they made that they were going to round up Somalis, they're
21:03basically now just harassing everyone else in in in that anger of not being able to do what they wanted
21:09to do.
21:10There is an increasingly loud debate over what Congress should do about what we're seeing.
21:17Some Democrats have been pushing for a fight over DHS funds.
21:21I've read members of Congress announced that there'll be a no on the upcoming continuing resolution.
21:28It's called minibus, small omnibus to keep the government funded, barring some changes for DHS.
21:33Where do you come down on this?
21:36Yeah, we just put out we just had a press conference as the lead for the progressive caucus.
21:45Our caucus took a stand in not supporting any funding for DHS unless there are some real changes that take
21:55place when it comes to ICE and border control.
21:58Well, you, along with several other members, had a visit to a facility this weekend.
22:05We've seen a number of these visits facilities.
22:08Now, there's legislation that requires admittance of Congress, members of Congress unannounced to inspect these facilities.
22:15That was something that was put into the law years ago.
22:18And yet we've seen resistance from DHS officials, including famously in Newark, where Monica McIver was, you know, sort of
22:28roughed up a bit by agents.
22:30She's now being prosecuted for that.
22:32What happened to you when you tried to visit a facility this weekend?
22:37Well, we arrived, myself and two other members from the Minnesota congressional delegation.
22:45We made our presence known.
22:49We told them we were there to do oversight.
22:51We were originally let in and given initial tour and then, you know, 10 minutes or so in, the person,
23:03the agent who was taking us around got a phone call.
23:06We do think it was probably someone from D.C. and was told that we couldn't we could no longer
23:15continue because something about the big, beautiful bill prohibited us from being able to do our oversight.
23:24The president today is promising a day of reckoning and retribution coming in Minnesota.
23:29There's announcement of more agents that are being sent to your district, to your city, to your state.
23:34It's now the largest operation.
23:36I think DHS is bragging the largest operation they've undertaken.
23:39What do you want?
23:40What needs to happen immediately for this situation to, I don't know, calm down, dissipate, find some equilibrium?
23:49This seems what's going on right now just utterly dangerous and unsustainable.
23:56Yeah, I mean, it is it is more than dangerous.
23:59We've seen somebody already get murdered.
24:02We don't want to see anything like that take place.
24:06They have not been able to tell us what is the purpose for for this search.
24:13They haven't been able to produce any evidence that they are finding people who are undocumented, who have committed crimes.
24:21Almost every single person that they have information and shared information with us has been someone that has already been
24:30adjudicated and was already in prison.
24:33And so there's no way to justify what they are doing.
24:37It is unleashing complete terror on the residents of Minnesota.
24:44Do you have a message for the president who has targeted you a lot about what you want to see
24:51happen in your district?
24:55We want ICE out of our district.
24:57We want them out of our state.
25:00We want this terror to stop.
25:03The lives of people are being interrupted.
25:06And it is not justifiable for for the president to target our state and the residents of the beautiful state
25:15of Minnesota this way.
25:18Congresswoman Ilhan Omar represents the district where Rene Good was shot and killed.
25:22Thank you so much for coming on tonight.
25:25Thank you for having me.
25:27Still ahead, Senator Amy Klobuchar on the exodus of federal prosecutors in the Minneapolis office.
25:33This story blew up today.
25:34It is really wild.
25:36That's going to be next.
25:41The past 24 hours, the Department of Justice has had enough scandals to overwhelm any previous administration of my lifetime.
25:47So first, in a story first reported by MS Now, at least six top prosecutors in the DOJ Civil Rights
25:53Division have resigned in protest after their boss, a right wing Twitter addicted Trump appointee, stepped in to stop the
26:01standard federal investigation into the shooting of Rene Good by that ICE agent, according to three people briefed on the
26:07departures.
26:08And in Minneapolis today, another six federal career prosecutors, including the number two official in the U.S. attorney's office
26:16there, also quit their jobs in protest because they were pressured by senior officials in Washington to open a criminal
26:23probe into the widow of Rene Good, the woman who watched her wife get killed by an ICE agent.
26:30That's according to people with knowledge of their decision.
26:32Senator Amy Klobuchar is a Democrat in Minnesota.
26:35She previously served as the Hennepin County attorney, and she joins me now.
26:40Senator, we don't have all the details here.
26:42The reporting indicates that D.C. has been pushing to essentially open a punitive criminal investigation into the, quote, activist
26:50associations of the widow of Rene Good and that this was too much for six officials, including the number two
26:58in that in that office.
27:01What's your response to that?
27:03This is unbelievable, Chris, and I appreciate you covering it.
27:06This is a treasure of an office, this U.S. attorney's office.
27:10Twice has won the national award for taking on complex cases like sex trafficking, solved one of the biggest missing
27:18persons case, along with our federal local state law enforcement.
27:21The Jacob Wetterling case took the lead on that, prosecuting a major fraud ring.
27:27And in fact, the guy, Joe Thompson, 16-year-old veteran with the office who is so respected by law
27:34enforcement, is leading the fraud cases, which I think are very important to bring.
27:39And he is the one, along with five other excellent attorneys who stepped down today.
27:46They didn't give their reasons, but the news reports appear to be similar to other cases around the country.
27:51I mean, they took an oath, Chris, they took an oath to serve justice and they took an oath to
27:57follow the law.
27:58And when they are asked to do something that they feel is not consistent with that oath, and I was
28:04a prosecutor, so I understand this, they make their own decisions.
28:08And in this case, you already had the Justice Department shutting out the seasoned professionals at the State Bureau of
28:14Criminal Apprehension in the investigation.
28:16And now we see this.
28:19And I just, I talked to Joe Thompson today and thanked him for his incredible service.
28:25I didn't go into the reasons I didn't want to do that because my job was to thank him.
28:30Because they literally got rid of the guy, he took himself out of this, who was the lead on the
28:37cases that they claim they're sending the ICE agents in.
28:40And, you know, more power to him to do more on the investigation of righteous cases on fraud.
28:46That's not what this is.
28:47As you see the videos, which you showed, they are just literally stopping random citizens who yell,
28:54I have my passport, or following DoorDash delivery people into private homes, or stopping American Indians and holding them, or
29:04legal citizens who work at Target.
29:07And I want to make clear to the viewers, these aren't just huge organized protests, which, honestly, it's going to
29:13be super cold in the coming seven degrees in Minnesota.
29:17But what they are are just people who are in the Menards parking lot who say, wait a minute, this
29:22isn't right.
29:22And they film it, or they say, stop this.
29:25Or neighbors who are just organically coming up because there are 3,000 ICE agents, we believe, in our state.
29:32It was 2,000, now they're adding more, which overwhelms 10 metro police departments and is actually double the amount
29:40of sworn police officers we have in Minneapolis and St. Paul.
29:43So when they went into L.A. and Chicago, it's bad.
29:46But in this case, they are more people and more agents than we have our local cops.
29:52Yeah, and these are some quotes from Brian O'Hara, who's the Minneapolis police chief.
29:58Very well-respected Minneapolis police chief, who I will note, when those kids were shot down in that church, his
30:03departments are the one that got there in three minutes, got everyone on the ambulance, saved so many lives, 20
30:08-some people in 18 minutes.
30:11That's the police chief you're talking about here.
30:13So go on.
30:14And I've been listening to several interviews he gave, one of them about the departure of Mr. Thompson, again, who
30:19was the lead prosecutor on that fraud ring, which is a very real thing and being pursued, and was, as
30:26you said, the kind of pretext for this.
30:28He said that the resignation dealt a major blow to efforts to root out rampant theft from state agencies, the
30:34fraud cases, which involve schemes to cheat safety net programs for the chief reason the Trump administration cited for its
30:39immigration crackdown in the state.
30:40When you lose the leader responsible for making the fraud cases, it tells you this isn't really about prosecuting fraud.
30:45One more thing that I've heard from Mr. O'Hara I would like to hear your response to is that
30:50there has been a real cost to local policing and law enforcement from the ICBP presence, that they are getting
30:59lots of 911 calls of vehicles abandoned in the road, of people calling 911 when ICE is at their door
31:06because they don't know who else to call,
31:07that it is actually made a tangible, like it's tangibly obstructing the public safety portfolio of the local police in
31:17Minneapolis right now.
31:19They are making us less safe, not more safe.
31:22And there's millions of dollars in overtime now that is at a taxpayer expense for our police department and others
31:30in the metro area simply trying to respond to citizens in their homes who say, I don't know, they're surrounding
31:36my home.
31:37What is going on?
31:38They don't have a warrant.
31:39What should I do?
31:40And Chief O'Hara has spent a lot of time building trust with the community, trust with his officers, and
31:47has done an excellent job.
31:48And so he is a voice of reason in all of this.
31:51And as he said, these fraud cases must go forward.
31:54Taxpayers shouldn't be ripped off.
31:56People who did this should go to jail.
31:58But right now what's happening is they are literally picking up random citizens just because they look different, asking them,
32:06as you saw in your video,
32:07where they're from, and they say, I'm legal, here's my ID, or they yell as they're being wrestled down to
32:13the ground, I'm legal.
32:14This is not doing anything to advance the fraud cases.
32:18It's the opposite.
32:19And also it is creating this tinderbox situation.
32:24And we just keep telling the people of Minnesota, because they're also going to suburbs, talk to a number of
32:29suburban mayors, they're going to small towns.
32:31We have told them, don't take the bait to the citizens, don't engage in anything but peaceful protests, and be
32:38very careful right now.
32:40Because it feels to us like they just want to have more trouble instead of listening to our seasoned law
32:47enforcement and making our state safer.
32:50And that's why we want them to leave.
32:52Senator Amy Kloesher, Minnesota, thank you for your time.
32:55Thank you, Chris.
32:56Still to come, Paul Krugman on Donald Trump's wild attack on the centerpiece of the global financial system.
33:05Next.
33:11When the news broke that Trump's Justice Department launched a criminal investigation into Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell, Powell did
33:17something he never does.
33:18He responded forcefully on camera.
33:22The threat of criminal charges is a consequence of the Federal Reserve setting interest rates based on our best assessment
33:29of what will serve the public, rather than following the preferences of the president.
33:34Public service sometimes requires standing firm in the face of threats.
33:38I will continue to do the job the Senate confirmed me to do, with integrity and a commitment to serving
33:45the American people.
33:47And that pushback is working. Already, that statement has gotten more than one million views on YouTube.
33:52And now, even Trump allies are kind of trying to distance themselves from the probe, which was opened by former
33:57Fox host and current U.S. attorney for D.C., Janine Pirro.
34:01Senate Republican Tom Tillis, who sits on the banking committee, has vowed to oppose all of Trump's nominees for the
34:07Federal Reserve until, quote, this legal matter is fully resolved.
34:10Trump's own Treasury Secretary, Scott Besson, has also pushed back with two sources informing Axios.
34:15Besson told Trump the probe, quote, made a mess. And it's not just here at home.
34:20Global central bankers, including the heads of the European Central Bank and Bank of England, issued a joint statement earlier
34:26defending Powell.
34:27Now, despite the lack of support, Trump, you might not be surprised to hear, does not appear to be backing
34:32down, repeatedly going after Powell just today.
34:38He either is incompetent or he's crooked. He's been a lousy Fed chairman. He was reappointed by Biden.
34:44I had the help of the Fed. It would be easier. But that jerk will be gone soon.
34:52Paul Krugman is a Nobel Prize winning economist, author of the Krugman Wonks Out Substack, which I read and enjoy.
34:57And he joins me now. Paul, let's just start on the pushback we have seen.
35:03I mean, you've got, you know, a bunch of bank CEOs saying this is bad. You've got the Wall Street
35:08Journal editorial page.
35:09You've got the business press. You've got Republicans getting pretty worried about this.
35:15Do you think it's meaningful that we're seeing the reaction we have seen to this obviously pretextual, abusive investigation into
35:25Powell?
35:26Well, sure. I mean, this is, you know, it would be one thing, would be a bad thing if Trump
35:32were simply trying to impose his will on the Federal Reserve.
35:35There are very good reasons why we want a fair degree of independence.
35:39Independent central banking has been, you know, one of the things that has kept the world relatively stable.
35:44It's gotten us through a lot. So if you were just infringing on the independence, that would be bad.
35:48But to say that, make it personal, to use, you know, trumped up charges against the Fed chairman, that's completely
35:57over the top.
35:58There's been nothing like this in any, you know, in any advanced stable country ever.
36:04This is completely, as there was a letter from a bunch of former Fed chairs and other former officials that
36:10said, it was kind of a Fed speak,
36:12but it said, basically, you're behaving like a corrupt third world country. That's not supposed to happen in countries at
36:18our level.
36:20There's today, I think there's a sense of, you know, there's all this pushback and this hope that he won't,
36:26you know, they won't go through it.
36:27They won't prosecute Powell, whose term is up in six months anyway.
36:30But it does seem to me that everyone's whistling past the graveyard a little bit to the point you just
36:34made,
36:34which is the obvious end point here is to produce a Federal Reserve where the Fed chairman is a lackey
36:43for the president.
36:44And the president tells him what he wants the rates to be. And he tries to push that through.
36:49Now, the board has to vote. And I just want to show people this is Turkey's Erdogan did this in
36:54Turkey, straightforwardly.
36:56And here's what happens. Like he's when he fires the central bank president like there.
37:02You see that in 2021, they have fairly high inflation and then it goes absolutely through the roof.
37:08We've seen this in Argentina as well. We've seen it in Zimbabwe famously like this seems to be the end
37:13goal is to get rid of Fed independence
37:15and have the rates be set by Donald Trump, who's going to want them always low to the possible demise
37:21of the U.S. economy.
37:22Do you feel like that's being priced in adequately right now?
37:26No. At the moment, the markets are acting as if, look, this is not really going to happen.
37:32And for the next, you know, for the next year or so, even if, you know, Trump replaces Powell with
37:40somebody more amenable,
37:42even if he replaces him with a hack, which seems highly likely, if the Fed is not run by one
37:47man, the Fed is, you know,
37:48the decisions are made by committee and most of the committee will not be Trump appointees.
37:52But of course, if we're heading for, first of all, that's, you know, over time, it gets worn down.
37:56And secondly, if we're talking about a situation in which every Fed official knows that, you know,
38:02trumped up criminal charges will be brought against them, that they instead of just saying, I demand you do this
38:07or that we will ruin your life.
38:10We will destroy you if you don't go along.
38:12Well, that's a situation in which things can rapidly unravel.
38:15I don't think the markets are fully taking that on board.
38:19Trump was in Detroit today to give a sort of economic speech.
38:22He went to a Ford plant, sort of a fascinating little moment where a Ford worker,
38:28we now found out his name, he's a UAW worker at the Ford plant, heckled Trump.
38:32He called him a pedophile protector.
38:34The president gave him the middle finger.
38:36Here's how that went down.
38:51An FU, an FU, and then a middle finger.
38:54Are you struck, Paul, by how much people seem to hate this economy right now in every single measure of
39:02it,
39:02particularly in what we call the soft data, consumer sentiment and all that stuff?
39:07Yeah, I am a little surprised because, you know, I kind of thought that there's a partisan element.
39:15And I thought, you know, we do know that Republicans tend to cheer louder and boo harder.
39:19And so, you know, just having a Republican president thought that people would start to be,
39:24at least say they were more optimistic about the economy.
39:28And, you know, the inflation, the big inflation spike is receding in the rearview mirror.
39:34So I kind of thought that people would start to, you know, be more positive.
39:38But there's really two things going on here.
39:40One is that in some important ways, the economy really is bad.
39:43This is, unemployment isn't that high, but the getting a job is very hard.
39:48It's a frozen economy.
39:50So people are very, very nervous.
39:52You know, you have a job, but if you have a dispute with your boss and you try to step
39:56out that door,
39:57there may not be another job.
39:58It's a very long time now to find a job.
40:00It's very poor for people who are not comfortably seated.
40:05And the other thing is that I think the cognitive distance between all the things that Trump promised.
40:11You know, we were supposed to have prices falling.
40:13We were supposed to have the greatest economy you've ever seen.
40:15And even he keeps on saying that we have this wonderful, hot economy.
40:19And that's not what people are experiencing.
40:21That's a great point.
40:21And that collision between what Trump says and what Trump promised and the kind of dreary reality of the economy
40:28is what's doing it.
40:29But, you know, it is amazing.
40:32Paul Krugman, thank you so much.
40:38Before we go tonight, I want to take a moment to talk about a piece of American history in the
40:41news.
40:42The largest synagogue in the state of Mississippi.
40:45Temple Beth Israel in Jackson has been a sanctuary for the Jewish community there since just after the Civil War.
40:51And nearly a century later, in 1967, the synagogue was firebombed by KKK members because the rabbi was a civil
40:58rights leader.
40:59Members of the congregation held services for their high holy days in the ruins.
41:03They repaired the damage.
41:05Some of them even helped infiltrate the KKK to bring the arsonists to justice.
41:10But over the weekend, amid an ongoing spate of violent anti-Semitic attacks and desecrations of synagogues across the country,
41:19Temple Beth Israel was burned again.
41:22The temple's library was destroyed.
41:24Some of the same spaces that burned in 1967 were damaged in Saturday's blaze.
41:28Federal prosecutors have charged a 19-year-old man who was turned in by his father.
41:33In an affidavit, prosecutors said the man laughed as he told his father what he did and said he finally
41:38got them, apparently referring to Jews.
41:41But just like after the 1967 attack, there's been an outpouring of support from temples, churches, and individuals.
41:48And Beth Israel's rebuilding, raising money on their website, BethIsraelMS.org, to fix what's been destroyed.
41:56In a statement this week, a congregation vowed to, quote,
41:59proudly, even defiantly continue Jewish life in Jackson in the face of hatred.
42:04Amen to that.
42:06That is all in on this Tuesday night.
42:07The briefing with Jen Psaki starts right now.
42:10Good evening, Jen.
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