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Betrayal: Secrets & Lies - Season 1 Episode 5 -
The Kentucky Conman
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The Kentucky Conman
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00:02Neil was charismatic and witty, just a nice, normal man.
00:08More cuddles, Ralph. More cuddles.
00:12That was the ruse.
00:15There's something very strange about this baby.
00:18You can keep the baby. Great for you.
00:20But it ain't mine, darling. It seriously, seriously isn't mine.
00:26Tina was in absolute shock.
00:29I've spoken to probably 200 people who Neil traumatized.
00:37I've had to pretty much talk girls off the ledge.
00:41I didn't realize the gravity of the situation that I escaped from.
00:45Everything he told me was a lie.
00:47You're not answering my call.
00:50I'd never seen anything as extreme as this.
00:54I'm a reporter.
00:59I would like him to suffer slowly, courteously.
01:04Someone really needs to stop him.
01:27I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal.
01:30A show about the people we trust the most, and the deceptions that change everything.
01:35Today, I'm talking with Tina Maya, a strong, independent woman whose casual fling turned her world upside down.
01:44When she tried to understand what happened to her, she ended up forming a community of women that were all
01:51deceived by the same man.
01:53Can you talk a little bit about the scope of what Neil did?
02:00He just hides behind being this normal guy, but his lies are so damaging.
02:08They're so eroding.
02:09And it's been going on for like 30-something years.
02:13Wow.
02:13There's a whole load of people that think, oh, well, you know, how could you go for that?
02:17But this is my truth.
02:18This is my story.
02:27I was born in Tehran before the revolution in 1975, and things got a little real over there when I
02:35was quite young.
02:36So, we moved back to the UK, because my father was born there.
02:44I lived in a very nice place.
02:46I had great friends, good education.
02:49Tina's full of life.
02:51Carefree.
02:54After I graduated university, I was starting my career in the technology world, and I just sort of had to
03:01figure out what this internet was.
03:05Tina ends up in New York City with a high-paying job, and she's there for about 10 years.
03:10She gets married, has a baby, gets divorced, and then in 2015, she gets a great job offer in London,
03:16and she decides to move home.
03:20I was just sort of starting again, just me and my son, Leo.
03:25He was six.
03:27She was working in e-commerce, and she was very business-minded.
03:36So, it was very early 2016.
03:39I was at one of these conferences in London.
03:43I was speaking with a lot of people, and that's where I stumbled across Neil Lorman.
03:54He had a marketing firm.
03:58He was cute, quite attractive, but I really didn't think too much about that conversation.
04:04He just seemed like a nice, normal man.
04:09Neil Lorman is from Essex.
04:11It's a tough, working-class area outside of London.
04:14He's a successful businessman, and he even has an interesting hobby.
04:18He loves cooking and appears in YouTube videos.
04:21If you'd help this, I'd actually come around for dinner and let you cook for me.
04:25Would you spoon me afterwards?
04:27Why not?
04:30Tina had no desire for a relationship, but after the conference, Neil texted her out of
04:36the blue.
04:38He said that he was going to be in Bromley, a town close to where I live, and did I
04:45want
04:45to meet up?
04:46I was in a good mood, and Leo was at a sleepover, and Neil seems like he might be good
04:53fun for
04:53a drink.
04:54Um, okay.
05:00He was charismatic and witty.
05:03He was a fun guy.
05:07I told him a little bit about my divorce, and he said that he was divorced also, and they
05:17lived together in the States too, and he said that his ex-wife had got quite bitter about
05:23the fact that he couldn't give her children.
05:28He said I'd had testicular cancer, and, uh, I'm completely infertile.
05:34And he said his ex-wife had an affair with his friend and left him for the friend and
05:41gone on to have children with him.
05:43I felt like he was being, you know, quite vulnerable and genuine.
05:48It actually drew me to him.
05:52Tina starts seeing Neil more often.
05:54She still has no desire for a relationship, but she's having fun with him, and she's enjoying
05:59the sex.
06:01That was part of what it was, and part of what was fun.
06:06She didn't need to live like a nun.
06:08The two consenting adults have fun.
06:13Even though he told me he was infertile, I was still worried, because having another
06:18child was not in my plan.
06:21He's like, no, like, I have zero sperm count.
06:27But he had sort of dropped into a conversation about having a lot of allergies, and one of
06:32those allergies was latex.
06:35And so he couldn't use protection.
06:40Over the next few months, Tina sees Neil sporadically.
06:45We would see each other once a week or so.
06:48He told me a bit about his family.
06:51He didn't come from money, but I didn't care.
06:56He came up in passing.
06:57Some guy she'd been seeing, I never for a minute thought that he was going to play a
07:02part in her life.
07:06Tina started noticing things about Neil that were off-putting.
07:11I can't believe you're not answering my call.
07:16Hilarious.
07:17I heard him have a phone conversation with his mother, and he was being so awful to her.
07:24And then there was the lying.
07:27He was clearly lying about his education.
07:31He told me he went to the London School of Economics.
07:35No, he didn't.
07:36Because I know the area quite well.
07:38We were talking about it, and he didn't seem to know even where LSE was.
07:44So it was these little things.
07:48Just as Tina's hoping that this relationship with Neil fades away, she starts to experience
07:53this familiar but concerning brain fog.
08:00I started to be quite forgetful.
08:06I remember one particular incident where I threw the rubbish away, and then I couldn't
08:11find my keys.
08:12I'm like, did I not throw the rubbish out?
08:15I threw my keys in the wheelie bin.
08:20Yes, I threw my keys in the wheelie bin.
08:23And I said, that's weird, because the only time I've ever been that absent-minded is when
08:29I was pregnant with Leo.
08:34And then my period was late.
08:37So I got a pregnancy test, immediately popped up, pregnant.
08:45I was like, well, no, I can't be pregnant.
08:48I was like, well, no, I can't be pregnant.
08:49Bought a few more.
08:51That didn't work.
08:54I thought, Neil doesn't know.
08:57He can have children.
08:59I thought, maybe it's a medical mistake.
09:02Or it was truly a miracle.
09:08Tina decides to keep the baby and reaches out to Neil.
09:12And then he really got quite venomous.
09:17I cannot produce children.
09:19If you are pregnant, how you deal with it is not my problem.
09:30I had intercourse with somebody who I knew was infertile.
09:36And I was pregnant.
09:42So I sent him a text.
09:45Saying, we should meet up and we can have a chat.
09:49He's like, I don't see why, if you've got something to tell me, why you can't.
09:53Not tell me here.
09:53I'm like, okay.
09:56I am pregnant.
09:58It's yours.
10:01I don't want anything from you.
10:04But I'm letting you know.
10:07He said, nice try.
10:09I had a vasectomy.
10:12And I sent him a picture of the pregnancy test.
10:16And I said, well, it didn't work.
10:18And he started leaving voice messages, which were insane.
10:26You need to get yourself to a doctor and have a proper pregnancy test, not a piss on the stick
10:31one.
10:32But I have zero sperm.
10:35Don't sit there putting things on me that this could be mine.
10:37Because it isn't.
10:39Medically impossible.
10:42It wasn't like he was like, oh, go and have an abortion.
10:46He just didn't want to be blamed.
10:49You can keep the baby.
10:51Great for you.
10:52But it ain't mine, darling.
10:53It seriously, seriously isn't mine.
10:57He was just rude.
11:00I will have nothing to do with you.
11:03Nothing to do with your child.
11:06They didn't expect him to be angry with me.
11:12This man who all his life thought he couldn't ever have children.
11:18Why isn't he happy?
11:27It got really weird.
11:31So I just said, you're more than welcome to take a DNA test when the baby's born.
11:37Neil refuses to do the DNA test.
11:40But Tina didn't need it.
11:41She knew he was the father.
11:43She hadn't been with anybody else.
11:44She just couldn't understand why he was adamantly denying it.
11:49But she moved on without Neil.
11:51And in January of 2017, Tina welcomed her baby girl, Josephine.
11:55And she calls her Fifi.
11:58When my daughter was born, she very quickly went blue.
12:07She had a lung infection.
12:09She was put into an incubator.
12:10She also had really serious jaundice.
12:15The treatment for the jaundice, the light treatment, wasn't working.
12:20And they said, there's only one more level we can go up before we have to give her a blood
12:24transfusion.
12:25And we're going to need blood types of the parents, any medical history.
12:29Tina was afraid for her baby's life.
12:31She hadn't spoken to Neil in months, but she had kept in touch with one of his friends.
12:36And she reached out to him to express the urgency of the situation.
12:39I suddenly get these long, nasty texts.
12:45How dare I contact his friend.
12:48Even if he did share DNA with my child, he would never want anything to do with someone as vile
12:56as me.
12:57And that he would not be giving any medical history.
13:03Just ugly messages to someone who had just given birth to his daughter who was potentially about to have a
13:10blood transfusion.
13:13Any person would make that phone call to help any baby.
13:19Most people would do more than that to help a kitten.
13:22This is not helping.
13:26Why?
13:32Luckily, she didn't need the blood transfusion.
13:34The next level of light did work.
13:36After a week in hospital, we were able to go home.
13:46Tina and the baby are settling in nicely at home, but she can't let go of how Neil conducted himself.
13:52So she decides to take action against him.
13:55I thought, I'm going to set the Child Maintenance Service onto you for the next 18 years.
13:59Not because I want the money, but because you deserve it.
14:03Because you're not a nice person.
14:06Tina submitted an application to the Child Maintenance Service, which is the UK's agency for child support.
14:12Boy, did it open up a box of worms.
14:17When the report came through, it said that it had been accepted and that he had been assessed five pounds
14:26a week because he was a benefits recipient, which was the first like, what?
14:30Like, I know this guy has business.
14:32But then the next really alarming thing was that that five pounds a week was split between four children.
14:45There were no names or details in the CMS report, so Tina decides to do her own investigation.
14:52The first thing I did was go to Facebook and I look up Neil's last name.
14:58Lawman.
14:59Straight away, up comes a profile.
15:02I thought, well, this must be his ex-wife.
15:06Or his current wife, who knows?
15:09Not in America, right here, not far from where I now live.
15:14And on the profile was a picture of two young girls.
15:19And they looked like Fifi.
15:25I thought, should I write to her?
15:27So I did.
15:29I said, I just had a baby and the father is Neil Lawman.
15:34And quite quickly, she got back to me.
15:39The first line was just, I am so sorry that you have also been his victim.
15:45I'm like, oh, .
15:54Tina reaches out to a woman on Facebook that has the same last name as Neil, which is Lawman.
16:02She wrote back, every word out of that man's mouth is a lie.
16:09And he'd gone and left her with nothing but a mess and his two children's rights.
16:16And she was clearly traumatised.
16:22I used to be married to Neil.
16:30I chose to do this interview anonymously because I have two girls with Neil who are now grown up.
16:36And they don't want this to come back and haunt them.
16:42I would like Neil to suffer, slowly, torturously, and I'd like to witness it.
16:59Neil and I got married on August the 25th, 2002.
17:07We were together until November 2009 when he left.
17:12Neil's ex-wife, who doesn't want us to use her name,
17:14tells Tina that they've never lived in the United States.
17:19She did not leave Neil for his friend.
17:21He's definitely the father of her two kids.
17:24And he is never once mentioned having cancer.
17:29At this point, I realised that he had impregnated me maliciously.
17:35He knew what he was doing.
17:37I didn't really want to do this interview,
17:39but I can't bear the thought of him having any more children
17:43with some other unsuspecting victim.
17:47This is Neil's story to me, so it may have some degree of untruth.
17:56His mother had him when she was 16.
17:59She told him that his father was Kevin Jones, who she was then with.
18:07They sat Neil down on his 18th birthday and told him that Kevin Jones was not his father,
18:12and he had believed all that time that he was his father.
18:16Six months later, Kevin Jones died of a heart attack,
18:19and Neil doesn't know who his father is,
18:22but I can imagine that finding something out like that when you're 18
18:27probably could have contributed to his dysfunctional personality.
18:32His ex-wife also shared that Neil used to go by Neil Jones,
18:36but he changed his last name to his mother's maiden name, which is Lawman.
18:40Neil was very charming and very good at making people feel comfortable.
18:48He appeared to be ambitious, and he appeared to be a hard worker,
18:53but he was very deceiving in all of those things.
18:57He never spent any time with the kids, and he was having affairs.
19:04Even though things were getting really bad,
19:07Neil's ex-wife tried to stick it out for the kids, but Neil left.
19:12He left his ex-wife for another relationship.
19:18So he left in November 2009. The last time my daughter saw him was March 2010,
19:23and they have not seen him since then.
19:28Tina and Neil's ex-wife, they start a connection.
19:31They start talking on the phone and texting all the time,
19:33so they decide to meet up in London.
19:36We instantly got along.
19:39I remember her saying to me,
19:41all these years I've felt like the stupidest woman in the world.
19:44And then I meet you, and you're like the smartest woman I've ever met,
19:48and you would you!
19:50And I felt exactly the same way about her.
19:54There was a vindication.
19:57I told Tina everything about my relationship with Neil.
20:05They lived very lavishly.
20:07She thought that he was doing well in business,
20:09but actually she found out that he remortgaged their house without her knowing.
20:16He also had £40,000 worth of business debts,
20:20which had a claim over the house,
20:23and I didn't know anything about any of it.
20:25So I had to put the house on the market,
20:27sell it to pay off his debt, and then start again.
20:32Neil's ex and Tina chatted for hours,
20:35and then she dropped a bombshell.
20:38I said to Tina,
20:40I hate to tell you this, but Neil had two other sons.
20:46After Neil left, his ex-wife finds out,
20:49through child maintenance services,
20:51that he had two sons that he had had before they had ever met,
20:54and he had never once mentioned them to her.
20:59Why would you want to have kids if you didn't want to have kids?
21:07Before calling it a night, Tina had an idea.
21:11I thought it would be funny to send him a little memento.
21:17We took a picture, and we're giving him the bird,
21:22and we entitled it The Other Mother.
21:26He didn't take it with humour.
21:30He sent emails to my work.
21:34He wrote very graphic, awful depictions of the time that we dated,
21:40and made it out to actually be something quite lewd.
21:44And he sent it to the entire company I worked for.
21:50If he'd have sent naked pictures of me,
21:53it wouldn't have been less humiliating.
21:57Tina was not about to be bullied by Neil.
22:01So she reports the email to the police,
22:03and they put out a warrant for his arrest
22:05for malicious communication.
22:08The police told me he also had another warrant out
22:11for his arrest at the same time for fraud.
22:15I learned that he was arrested 11 times
22:19and convicted five.
22:22But Neil's never served more than a couple of days in prison.
22:27He always gets suspended sentences.
22:30And so Tina was hoping that with this malicious communications charge,
22:34it would finally land him behind bars.
22:38The police said they couldn't find him,
22:40so the warrant got cancelled after a year,
22:45and they didn't even let me know.
22:48The man is still walking the streets,
22:50and he is still capable of impregnating women
22:52and then walking away with total abandon.
22:54So Tina had this idea to set up a Facebook page
22:57to warn people about Neil.
23:00The Neil Lorman Victim Support Group.
23:04We just hoped that people would type his name into Facebook
23:08before dating him or before going into business with him,
23:13and it'll give them a little red flag.
23:15Neil tried to get the Facebook page taken down,
23:19but Tina fought to keep it up, and she won.
23:24In the Facebook group, there are people who claim they have had
23:29business relationships with him that went very sour.
23:33Women that he has dated who claim he's turned on them.
23:38Family members of people that he's hurt
23:41who claim he's caused problems within the families.
23:44There's quite a few landlords who claim he doesn't pay rent.
23:49And what I wasn't expecting was other mothers.
24:01How did we all meet?
24:04How did you start?
24:06Well, it's the first time I've actually met Adele and Claire in person.
24:11We arranged for Tina to meet with three members
24:13of the Neil Lorman Victim Support Group.
24:16Right now, there are more than 150 members.
24:19And, of course, Karen, yeah.
24:21Karen came to the group through Neil's ex-wife,
24:24and she says she was one of his first victims over 30 years ago.
24:29So, obviously, you know, about 30-odd years ago,
24:32Neil was quite young.
24:34Yeah.
24:34Yeah, he wasn't, like, obviously what he is now.
24:36He was just...
24:37Obviously, like...
24:38Just a normal dude. He was just a normal guy.
24:41The thing is, his ruse is normality.
24:43He just pretends to be a normal bloke,
24:45and that's how he gets you.
24:49When I met Neil, I was 24.
24:52Neil was 20.
24:53He was my neighbour.
24:56In the beginning, he was very charming.
24:59It was like he was looking after me all the time.
25:02In this relationship, there was no mention of infertility or cancer.
25:07And nine months into their relationship,
25:09they get engaged, and Karen was pregnant.
25:14When I told Neil I was pregnant, he was happy.
25:16He done the nursery up with me, and there was no problem.
25:21And when my son was born, he was really hands-on.
25:27It's kind of strange how Neil goes from this loving father,
25:31when his son is born in 1994,
25:33to never mentioning him once to anyone he dates for the next 31 years.
25:42My name's Daniel, and I'm Neil's son.
25:48I don't really remember much, to be honest.
25:50I think I try and block most of it out.
25:52I don't really ask many questions about him.
25:54It's not going to change anything for me,
25:55so the less I know, the better I feel.
25:58It's in this relationship where we see a pattern form.
26:02Neil starts off as a great guy,
26:04but then he morphs into a completely different person,
26:07becomes controlling, and just plain mean.
26:09He didn't like to be wrong or be told no.
26:12And if I ever challenged him,
26:14Neil would say that I was really fat and ugly,
26:16and if you leave me, you'll be on your own.
26:19You're going to become a single mum.
26:21It did go from, like, nothing to mad.
26:23He just chipped away at me.
26:29Multiple women on Facebook allege that Neil was violent with them,
26:33including Karen.
26:35At the time, I did love him, but I was nervous of him,
26:38and I didn't want to make him angry because I got a smack.
26:43I kept thinking it was going to be all right.
26:45He didn't mean to do it. He was really sorry.
26:47He said, I'll never do it again. I'm not going to get help.
26:52A lot of what I'm hearing today is obviously the first time I'm hearing these things,
26:57and the more I hear, it's just shocking.
27:00It's nothing less than a scumbag.
27:03In responding to a protective order sought against him,
27:06Neil denies physical abuse allegations,
27:08and he was never convicted of any violent crimes.
27:11But according to Karen,
27:13Neil promised that he would change,
27:15but things didn't get better.
27:16So Karen left Neil when Daniel was just 20 months old.
27:21He was seeing him on weekend visits,
27:23but there was loads of times where he'd let him down and not turn up,
27:26and there was always an excuse.
27:29So growing up, there was a lot of bang on.
27:32I was obviously upset.
27:34There's some bits that damaged you,
27:35but he's not going to come back.
27:36He's not going to suddenly become my father again.
27:39So I just sort of focused on the good parts of my life
27:42and getting to where I want to go to in my personal journey.
27:47Does Neil have a relationship with his son?
27:49No.
27:50He didn't until he was about six.
27:54The last time I seen Neil was sitting in McDonald's.
27:58And there was, like, sea monkeys.
28:01He gave me those and basically said that he couldn't see me no more.
28:04And then he just literally disappeared, went gone.
28:09That was in 2000, the same year Neil met his ex-wife,
28:13who didn't even find out about Daniel until after he left
28:16and she read the child maintenance service report.
28:20There was another son that was listed on the CMS report.
28:23It was a son that he had when he was 18,
28:25and he ran off as soon as he was born.
28:28And Tina tracked down that mother on Facebook.
28:32She's very, very direct.
28:34She said, just forget about him, put him behind you,
28:36don't think about him.
28:37And she said, the day someone calls her to let her know
28:41that he's dropped dead will be the day she pops open
28:44a bottle of champagne.
28:46Through this Facebook group, another shocking detail
28:49comes to light 28 years after it happened.
28:52Two of his kids were born eight weeks apart.
28:57Those two boys were born to mothers
29:00who lived on the same street.
29:02One of the moms was Karen.
29:05He also had a girlfriend down the road.
29:10Tina phoned me.
29:11She just said, how old was Dan?
29:13And I said, he's 28 in August.
29:15And she said, I think you should hear it from me.
29:16There's another child.
29:17And he was 28 in June.
29:19I was like, oh.
29:21Oh, okay.
29:23I was waiting for who else there is.
29:28I call myself the one who got away.
29:35How did it feel to you when you found out there was another woman who had a baby at the
29:39same time?
29:41To be honest, because I've been speaking to you guys, I wasn't actually really shocked.
29:44I just made Daniel a bit further down in the pecking order.
29:49She lived on the same street.
29:51Literally the same street.
29:52I didn't know that, obviously.
29:53How did they keep you separated and not cross paths?
29:56We had to move quickly.
29:58You have to think to yourself, how has he managed to do this to people and keep doing it?
30:05It just gets more and more insane.
30:14I kind of struck up in a relationship with Neil through a Facebook business group in 2015.
30:22I was going through a divorce and I had two young boys.
30:26I wasn't looking for a relationship or anything like that.
30:30But there was this underlying charisma that kind of came across once you started speaking to him.
30:36That's when he reeled you in.
30:41The first time I heard about the infertility, we'd been out for drinks.
30:52And the next morning, I woke to find him in my bed.
31:01We hadn't been intimate prior to this.
31:04I remember saying to him, oh my God, did we have sex last night?
31:08And he was like, don't you remember?
31:10And he made it all jokey and made me feel a bit stupid for not remembering.
31:16And I said, did we use something?
31:19Obviously, I didn't want to have any more children.
31:21And he said to me, listen, don't worry, don't worry.
31:25I can't have children anyway.
31:28I've had testicular cancer.
31:30I had to go through chemotherapy.
31:32I have no more spam cells.
31:36I was ashamed.
31:38I needed to close that chapter.
31:43Neil tried to see Claire again, and even though she never became pregnant by him, she cut him off.
31:50He targets divorced women with children and with careers.
31:54And yeah, he's definitely followed a pattern.
32:00He goes for successful, secure women and then tries to drag them down.
32:10When I reached out to his most recent girlfriend, she was really under his control.
32:21I'm Rachel, and I met Neil Lorman through my business I had at the time.
32:27Neil came across very, like, a successful businessman and caring person.
32:32In the beginning of the relationship, he was really good around my kids, and my kids really liked him.
32:37Neil did tell Rachel about his two daughters with his ex-wife.
32:40But there was no mention of any other children.
32:43And in the two and a half years that they are together, there was no mention of infertility, no mention
32:48of cancer.
32:49But he had other stories to tell.
32:51He told me about all the property that he owns, and how he used to work for the government.
32:57And how he used to be an ex-pro ice hockey player.
33:01Everything he told me was a lie.
33:03But he says it in such a way, it's very believable.
33:06So I never really questioned it.
33:09Rachel and her kids moved in with Neil.
33:11At first, they stayed in his two-bedroom apartment.
33:13But then Rachel bought her own house, and Neil came with her.
33:17And according to her, he slowly started to change.
33:20It was mentally controlling.
33:22It's weird, he had that thing about you where he would pick you up and lift you up.
33:25You'd think, great, I feel amazing.
33:26But then he would really drop you down and just kind of pick on the things you don't like.
33:33The way I dressed, the way I look.
33:35And then by the end, he was distant from everyone.
33:38He didn't really show any emotional care or interest in me or my kids.
33:44Rachel's family is concerned about Neil.
33:47And Rachel has an aunt that decides to do her own investigation and finds this Facebook page and shows Rachel.
33:54And Rachel is horrified by what she sees.
33:56And it motivates her to leave Neil.
33:58She sends him an email saying that she's left.
34:01And then he starts bombarding her with voice messages.
34:05Rachel, I've just got your email and I am absolutely gutted.
34:12I want to be with you.
34:14I love you.
34:16Please answer my call, Rachel.
34:19Please.
34:19Please come home.
34:22At the beginning, it was very desperate and then it kind of turned nasty.
34:26You snuck off and I'm walking around the house thinking, well, all this is mine.
34:31All this is mine.
34:33I have got nowhere to go and I am not leaving this house.
34:40I just ignored it.
34:41There's no way to get me back now.
34:43Not a chance in hell.
34:45Rachel's lucky that she was able to completely cut Neil out of her life.
34:49So many women are still connected to Neil through their children.
34:52And how many children Neil has is hard to confirm.
34:55When it comes to kids that there's either a DNA test or he's on their birth certificate, there's five.
35:04Some people have reached out and said that they have his child.
35:09I think there's 13 alleged children.
35:15Tina got one of the UK's largest newspapers, The Times, to cover the story.
35:23My name is Ben Ellery and I am the crime editor for The Times.
35:29Every person we spoke to opened another doorway into this world of Neil Lawman.
35:36Each one took us further and was slightly more unbelievable.
35:43We got to a stage where if we wanted to run the story, we needed to gather some hard evidence.
35:50We did a DNA test between my daughter and his ex-wife's two daughters.
35:58Neil's on their birth certificate.
36:01The markers came through on their DNA test.
36:04More than most bald siblings have.
36:07It's ironclad.
36:12I know Tina is campaigning for lying to someone about being infertile to be made a criminal offence.
36:19There is absolutely justice that needs to be served against Neil.
36:24I want him to be convicted of rape by deception.
36:35Neil had gone to such lengths with his lies to impregnate me with a child he had no intentions of
36:45being part of.
36:48At one point there was a police officer who did take a great interest and start investigating Neil's actions.
36:57And she said it really did fit with rape by deception.
37:02Rape by deception falls outside the typical definition of rape.
37:05It's an argument that says a perpetrator deceived someone in order to get consent.
37:11I didn't consent to be with a fertile man.
37:16There's another high profile case in the UK where a man lied about having a vasectomy and got a woman
37:21pregnant.
37:22And the rape by deception argument was used and he was found guilty.
37:26But ultimately he was able to have that verdict overturned.
37:30It was overturned because rape by deception has to be connected to the sex act itself, not the circumstances around
37:40the act.
37:41Now it's precedent, so Tina's investigation was dropped.
37:46You can't seem to pin him down and prosecute him for anything.
37:50The rape by deception, malicious communication, fraud, all been swept under the rug.
37:55And I'd love to see change happening.
37:59But what we have managed to do is, if not stop him, slow him down.
38:05These women aren't expecting Neil to make any admissions anytime soon.
38:10They're just left wondering why Neil is the way he is.
38:15Do you think it's a control thing?
38:17I do think so.
38:18Because he goes for women that are freshly divorced.
38:21So there's that vulnerability about them, even though they are strong, independent women.
38:24He finds the vulnerability.
38:25And that's where he gets in at.
38:27And it's from then, he kind of monopolizes everything.
38:31You can't put it down to trauma or anything for him because he had a good upbringing.
38:35He's got a good family.
38:36He's got no excuse whatsoever.
38:40I know because of the Facebook group.
38:43And after the Times article, people aren't buying into his fraud so much and his romantic charms.
38:52And so I think his lifestyle has definitely taken a downturn.
39:01Betrayal's investigative team went to Neil's home in Jaywick to get his side of the story.
39:15Hi.
39:16Hi.
39:16We're looking for Neil Lawman.
39:17Is that you?
39:18Hi.
39:19I'm a reporter.
39:20Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
39:23I don't like you.
39:27I think all the mothers have worried about nature and nurture.
39:35But I've met a number of the children and they're all beautiful souls.
39:43My girls have really developed into successful, smart adults in spite of what he did.
39:53My daughter is the most empathetic, kind, sweet little girl.
40:01There's no faulty wiring in her.
40:05That looks like me.
40:08I think it looks just like you, actually.
40:12We've had some conversations about Neil.
40:15And what I've let her know is that she's been lucky that she's grown up being given a lot of
40:23love and a lot of affection and a lot of attention.
40:25So she's able to go and give it to other people.
40:29And I said, not everyone is filled with that when they're growing up.
40:34And unfortunately, he's one of those people that just doesn't have it to give.
40:38She doesn't ever seem particularly fazed by it.
40:43When Neil's ex-wife told her daughters about Fifi, they wanted to meet her.
40:48And now they have a relationship.
40:49They've been in her life since she was three months old.
40:53She absolutely adores them.
40:54She's met Daniel, her half-brother, as well.
40:57And I think she just feels quite fulfilled by having people who genuinely care about her.
41:04So why would she care about someone who doesn't?
41:09I wish for his future that it's exactly what he deserves.
41:14But let's end on a positive note and say that doesn't he have amazing taste in women?
41:20Oh, absolutely.
41:24Whether he'll actually face justice or not, I hope so.
41:28But all I can do is tell my story and hope that someone listens who has the power to do
41:37something about it.
41:39I love you, I love you.
41:45A great concept of a dream!
41:50I love you, I love you.
41:56It's too dark too loud toarken.
42:01You are very excited.
42:01I love you, man.
42:03And I'm dying...
42:04I need ya!
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