00:00It is great to have you here. It's a gift, truly, truly.
00:03So nice to be with you, Carol and Tim.
00:05So talk to us a little bit about this news flow and how you're kind of taking all of it
00:09in,
00:10in terms of the U.S. war in Iran. Do you see it as a fragile ceasefire? Do you see
00:13it as progress?
00:14Are we moving back to normal, whatever that may be?
00:17It has been a long and difficult seven weeks, and it's extraordinary, really, how many countries,
00:22while there are only three countries actually involved in this war, so many others have been
00:26drawn in economically and diplomatically in other ways as well. So I think that the last 24 hours
00:32have offered us a moment of hope, but this is a continuing moment of peril, because even,
00:38hopefully, if there is some kind of outcome from this process in Islamabad, it might well still be
00:43fragile. But I think the story of Pakistan emerging as this broker at this moment in time is one that
00:49goes back to the early days of the Trump administration, primarily because Pakistan handed
00:55over a terrorist suspect to the United States, someone accused of being involved in a bombing
01:01in Afghanistan at the time the U.S. was withdrawing. So that was the first sign that brought about a
01:08moment of bonding between the Trump administration and the army chief. And it's that relationship that
01:13has developed. But it is important to remember that the relationship of one man, even in this
01:18setting, isn't everything. And therefore, there has been frantic diplomatic work on the part of
01:23Pakistani diplomats and the government of Pakistan. And that's been happening all this week between
01:28Islamabad last weekend and whatever happens this weekend.
01:31So if talks in Islamabad are successful, and ultimately, this war does come to an end as a
01:36result of negotiations that happened between the U.S. and Iran in Pakistan, what does Pakistan look like
01:41after the war in terms of an emergence as a different kind of country, perhaps viewed differently
01:45on the world stage, perhaps viewed differently by President Trump?
01:48Well, primarily what they will be hoping for in Pakistan is that it looks different economically,
01:53because there's an immense amount of self-interest involved from the Pakistani side. It imports 90%
01:59of its energy, most of it from the Gulf. Schools have been closed, universities have been closed. The
02:04government was desperate to avoid scenes where there are long lines of vehicles waiting at gas
02:10stations. And the only way it could avoid that was to basically say that children were not going to go
02:15to
02:16school. And that, you know, a lot of people couldn't get to workplaces either. So there's been an immense
02:20economic impact. So that will be the primary hope that that changes. But there's no doubt about it, that
02:25of course, this gives diplomatic status. In the words of Maliha Lodi, the veteran Pakistani diplomat we
02:32spoke to last weekend, it's another indication of the importance of middle powers. This is a kind of Mark
02:38Carney, another previous guest on my podcast line, but that there is a role. Often, we just think about
02:46the superpowers, but there is a role for others. And Oman previously was involved in mediation,
02:53had its fingers badly burnt. Turkey was sort of talked about as a player, but really only Pakistan
02:59was, had enough of a relationship with both the US and Iran to be able to play this role.
03:04We have some of your conversation from Maliha Lodi, former Pakistani ambassador to the US.
03:09This was from your conversation, and I believe it aired last week. Let's listen up, everybody.
03:14Certainly, the Middle East has changed forever. It will not be status quo ante at all. Things are
03:21not going to go back to what they were before, that's for sure. Now, what comes in its place,
03:26it depends on, I think, realignments that will take place, reassessments that many Gulf countries
03:33may have to carry out. I mean, what happened to them? Many of them are feeling abandoned by the United
03:38States. Many feel that this American security umbrella, when the push came to shove, it was of
03:44no value to them, because America didn't defend them. All right. So again, Maliha Lodi, former
03:51Pakistani ambassador to the US. That was last week on the Michelle Hussain show. Significant voice and
03:58giving us some really good insight. Because I think one of the things we keep trying, it's very easy to
04:02hear, you know, the American perspective, what we're hearing from the White House. But as you said,
04:06the impact of this war on Pakistan, I don't think we, we don't have the energy lines or gas lines
04:12here. But it's impacting many different nations on that side of the world very differently.
04:17And, Carol, I'd also say the UK, where I live, has been, what the government has been hoping to do
04:23in terms of policy terms, its financial calculations, those have been upended, because the UK is also a
04:28significant energy importer. And so it is not only places in Asia, it is also countries in Europe, and
04:37certainly the UK of the G7 nations is particularly exposed. So the ripple effects of this have been
04:42enormous. And I think Maliha Lodi is right, the world, even at the point that we have an actual
04:47agreed ceasefire, the world is going to look and feel different.
04:50Well, let's, let's push that forward a little bit, because I'm wondering about the view of the United States
04:55and its role in the world, because you spent a lot of time looking into what happened in Venezuela
05:01and featuring guests on your program from Venezuela after the US invaded Venezuela, or rather,
05:07the US took Nicolas Maduro here to New York. What about net what's next and the way that the US
05:15is
05:15viewed? It's certainly driven MAGA apart in the US, but has it put other world leaders on notice?
05:21Well, look, it's understandable that the United States, the Trump administration, but more broadly,
05:27other elements of the United States are going to want to portray this as a positive moment. But
05:33other parts of the world will look at the events of the last seven weeks and think that we also
05:37saw
05:37the limits of US military power, that with all its overwhelming military might, the United States
05:42had to send a high level delegation to Pakistan to discuss things with the American. If you have
05:47overwhelming military power and other power, you don't need to have that kind of conversation.
05:51So Michelle, who feels emboldened then by this? And we've just got about 40, 30, 40 seconds.
05:56Well, I think Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin will both have learned interesting lessons. The
06:02international attention has shifted away from the Ukrainians. And that will have been a benefit to
06:09Vladimir Putin. So I think that, you know, of course, it's grabbed the international headlines. And,
06:16you know, no one really wants to mess with the United States and risk anything like this. But equally,
06:21I do think that we have seen limits to American power in these last seven weeks.
06:26Yeah, it definitely does feel like a different way forward for the world at large. Michelle,
06:30thank you so much.
06:31Great to be with you.
06:32Great to have you here once again. Michelle Hussain, host of The Michelle Hussain Show,
06:36a podcast from Bloomberg Week. And she's also, as we mentioned, the author of Broken Threads,
06:40My Family, From Empire to Independent. But be sure to check her out on the Bloomberg,
06:44on your podcast feed and at Bloomberg.com.
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