- 17 hours ago
Questions of leadership, accountability, and regional unity take centre stage across the Caribbean Community.
We examine the fallout from the latest CARICOM controversy, and what it means for the future of the region, following the re-election of Dr. Carla Barnett to a second term as Secretary-General of CARICOM.
We examine the fallout from the latest CARICOM controversy, and what it means for the future of the region, following the re-election of Dr. Carla Barnett to a second term as Secretary-General of CARICOM.
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00:19Tonight on Beyond the Headlines, questions of leadership, accountability and regional
00:25unity take center stage across the Caribbean community.
00:28We examine the fallout from the latest CARICOM controversy and what it means for the future
00:35of the region following the re-election of Dr. Carla Barnett to second term as Secretary
00:41General of CARICOM.
00:42Is this a vote of confidence or a missed opportunity for change?
00:47And as tensions rise among member states, can CARICOM still deliver on its promise to
00:53the people of the Caribbean?
00:55Joining us tonight, it is our pleasure here at TV6 to welcome a seasoned diplomat and
01:00a regional voice, Sir Ronald Sanders.
01:03I'm Urvashi Tawari-Rubnarai and this is Beyond the Headlines.
01:08A very good evening to you, Sir Ronald.
01:11Thank you so much for taking the time to join us.
01:15It's a pleasure to join you.
01:17Where do we start?
01:18So the Prime Minister, a short while ago, she would have issued her latest statement.
01:24That's the Prime Minister of Trinidad and Tobago.
01:26But of course, I read just this morning, you said you've publicly said that Dr. Carla Barnett
01:32should consider resigning.
01:34Are you effectively saying, Sir Ronald, that her continued tender is now a liability to CARICOM
01:40unity?
01:42Well, let me make my position on this clear.
01:45And I want to start by saying that what I say in this interview, which you've invited
01:50me to attend, is in my personal capacity.
01:53It's drawing on more than 50 years of engagement with Caribbean affairs and a lifelong commitment
02:00to the cause of regional integration.
02:02I do not speak on behalf of any government or institution.
02:08Now, recent developments concerning the future tenure of Dr. Carla Barnett, a Secretary General
02:14of CARICOM, have brought into focus an issue that goes beyond any individual.
02:21It touches the essential requirement of cohesion and mutual confidence among the heads of government
02:30who guide the community.
02:32It is now evident that at least one head of government of a significant founding member
02:39state of CARICOM, Kamala Passat-Bissessor, does not support a continuation of Dr. Barnett's
02:46tenure.
02:47That reality, in my view, raises a serious question about the practical effectiveness of the office
02:55going forward.
02:56The Office of Secretary General depends not only on formal authority.
03:02But on the full confidence and cooperation of all member governments.
03:07Where that confidence is materially in doubt, the capacity of the office to function effectively
03:14is inevitably diminished.
03:17In those circumstances, and speaking solely for myself as one who has toiled in the vineyard
03:24of Caribbean integration for 50 years, I would consider it untenable to continue in the role
03:31in the face of such opposition, particularly from a member state whose engagement is central
03:37to the work of the community were I, the Secretary General of CARICOM.
03:42For that reason, if I were in Dr. Barnett's position, I would withdraw from consideration for a further term.
03:51This is not a judgment on her service, incidentally, which has been carried out with professionalism
03:58and dedication.
04:00Rather, it is a recognition of a larger principle.
04:03And that is, no individual, however capable, should become the point around which diversion
04:11among member states coalesces.
04:13At a time of considerable global uncertainty, when small states such as ours must rely more than ever
04:23on unity, coherence, and collective strength, it is essential, in my view, that the leadership
04:31of the community facilitates rather than complicates that unity.
04:35It is in that spirit, and with respect for both the office and the regional project, to which many
04:43of us have devoted our lives, that I offer the view that Dr. Barnett ought to withdraw from
04:49consideration for a further term, given the significant opposition of the Prime Minister of Trinidad
04:57and Tobago, who is an important figure amongst the heads of government and the importance of
05:03Trinidad and Tobago itself.
05:07I can't hear you.
05:09Say, Ronald, thank you so much for explaining the larger principle behind that, which you said
05:14no individual should be the reason for, in my words, regional disunity.
05:19But let's just say the vote did take place as outlined according to the articles of CARICOM.
05:27Then you don't necessarily have to have the support of all member states or all heads of government.
05:34You just need to have the majority.
05:36And even...
05:37Well, I don't...
05:38You can go ahead.
05:41Well, frankly, we're beyond that discussion.
05:44This is no longer a question of what happened in Nevis and what did not happen.
05:51What is relevant to us now is the situation we have before us, which is that a leading
05:57prime minister of CARICOM and of an important country that makes a 20 percent contribution
06:03to the secretariat is not happy with the current secretary general and does not wish that person
06:11to continue in office.
06:13If I were the secretary general, I would not stay in the way of regional integration.
06:19I would want to do all that I can to promote the cohesion of member states.
06:24And that is the point that is at issue now.
06:29What happened is neither here nor there.
06:32And raking over those coals is not going to make the fire any brighter.
06:36Sir Ronald, I respectfully disagree.
06:39And I do so because let's just say Dr. Barnett does not step down.
06:46Wouldn't we have to go back into and look at the entire process to see if that process
06:51was followed to give Trinidad and Tobago or any other member states that point of legal
06:58objection?
06:59No, there is no need for legal objection.
07:02This is not a legal argument.
07:04We are not at a court of law.
07:05It is a political argument.
07:08This is a matter between the heads of government at a political level, not a legal argument.
07:14If we get it, getting into legalities does not help the situation at all.
07:17So what we should be moving toward is resolving the problem, not trying to inflame it.
07:24Now, Sir Ronald, let me just go back a little bit.
07:27We have clear articles, clear rules.
07:29Then we have the chairman of CARICOM, who appears to be, in the words of our prime minister,
07:35somewhat unbending on that issue.
07:38Do you think at this point the issue is not so much just about Dr. Barnett at this point,
07:45but about the general chairmanship of CARICOM?
07:48Is it, in fact, patriarchal, as suggested by the prime minister?
07:53Is it a boys' club?
07:54Is it truly representative of all peoples of the region?
07:59Well, to say that it's a boys' club is nonsense.
08:03And I don't think the prime minister of Trinidad and Tobago made that statement.
08:07And if she did, it's regrettable.
08:09Because some of the most towering figures in CARICOM throughout its history have been women,
08:17starting with the former prime minister of Dominica,
08:22the present prime minister of Barbados,
08:26the former president of Guyana,
08:29and Prime Minister Misesa herself,
08:33who is now doing a second round as a prime minister and a head of government in the CARICOM caucus.
08:39And they have all participated vigorously.
08:42Nobody can say that because they were women,
08:44they were not allowed the opportunity to speak and speak freely.
08:49They have done that and they've made their mark on the region.
08:51So that is not an argument that is tenable in any way.
08:56In our case, Sir Ronald, let's just say Dr. Bonnet does step down.
09:01What sort of precedent will that be creating?
09:03Is it that the highest paying member, the highest contributor to CARICOM has more of a say?
09:10Is it now a case of money talks?
09:13No, it has nothing to do with that.
09:15Even if the member state that contributed the least to CARICOM,
09:19but was a full and equal member of the organization,
09:23takes an objection to the chief executive officer of the secretariat,
09:28that matter has to be taken into account.
09:32And due respect has to be paid to the representative of a country,
09:37particularly one that is a founding member,
09:40which represents the people of a state.
09:43That is the point that is at issue here.
09:47It doesn't have to do with their contribution or with the size of the country.
09:52Each member state of CARICOM has an equal voice and an equal vote.
09:59Now, just to go back a bit, you know,
10:02you did say that our Prime Minister Kamala Pesad-Besas
10:04is not pleased with Dr. Bonnet as Secretary General.
10:09But of course, she doesn't say this.
10:11Our Prime Minister, in fact, says that she doesn't agree with the process.
10:14And now she has gone a bit further in terms of disputing exactly what happened,
10:21who's lying, trying to tarnish this, everyone's character.
10:25Even in Trinidad and Tobago,
10:26we're seeing there's a lot of division over the Prime Minister's stance.
10:31Some believe that she has, she is now attacking CARICOM.
10:36But in effect, I was about to ask you, does she have a right?
10:42Does she have grounds?
10:44Well, I don't know about, I don't know grounds.
10:47I know she certainly has a right to speak her mind.
10:50And she has a right to an opinion.
10:51And she has a right to voice it.
10:53That does not mean everybody has to agree with her.
10:56But in this particular point, which is not about the process, as far as I am concerned,
11:03what it is about is whether or not a CEO of a regional organization
11:09can command the support of all of the member states.
11:14Can she have dialogue with every single Prime Minister that is necessary
11:19to move the regional integration movement forward?
11:22And absent that, then that is the issue with which we have to deal.
11:28Is she playing hardball, holding CARICOM to ransom,
11:32refusing to attend meetings, not recognizing Dr. Barnett
11:36when her term ends in August, threatening to cut funding?
11:41Well, that is a question for her, not for me.
11:44I am not interested in what her motivations are.
11:47What I am saying is that we have an impasse in CARICOM right now.
11:51And that impacts, that impasse surrounds the person who is holding the job of Secretary General
11:58and that person's ability to command the support of every single Prime Minister
12:04and head of government in the caucus.
12:07Now, speaking to you in a pre-interview, I should say, Sir Ronald,
12:13you did say that you didn't think that this entire to and fro ought to have been played out
12:19in the public domain.
12:21Essentially, ideally, what should have happened?
12:24And that is still my view.
12:25I believe that megaphone diplomacy never works.
12:29It doesn't work in international affairs, in regional affairs.
12:33In fact, it doesn't even succeed in national affairs.
12:37The best way to resolve difficulties is through dialogue.
12:41And dialogue requires a mature approach, a sensible approach, respect for your colleagues,
12:46and sitting down and talking about the issues that are before them.
12:50And everybody has a right to an opinion.
12:53Everybody has a right to express the concerns about which are peculiar to them
12:59and which they consider to be important.
13:02What we have to do in CARICOM is learn to listen more to one another,
13:08to respect more the views of each other,
13:11recognize that there are differences in what we consider to be security issues,
13:17and we have to address those matters collectively.
13:21But if we have to do it collectively, we have to start by listening to one another
13:26and not shouting at each other.
13:27So it's time for that to stop.
13:30So, Ronald, we're about to take a break.
13:33When we return, call for transparency from Kamala Passat-Bissessa.
13:37Are those calls justified?
13:38And what does this mean for regional unity?
13:42Stay with us.
13:43There's more from Sir Ronald after the break.
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15:18And welcome back to Beyond the Headlines.
15:20We continue our discussion with Sir Ronald Sanders.
15:24He's, of course, Ambassador of Antigua and Barbuda to the United States and Dean of Ambassadors
15:30of the Western Hemisphere countries, which include many CARICOM countries.
15:34He's also a career diplomat.
15:37Sir Ronald, thank you so much for, of course, staying with us.
15:41You, of course, suggested that Dr. Barnett's presence could deepen divisions within CARICOM.
15:47Has this already reached, in your opinion, a point where CARICOM cannot function cohesively
15:53under her leadership?
15:56No, I do not think so at all.
15:58And, you know, CARICOM is not as divided as people like to think it is.
16:03The truth of the matter is that in its years of existence, it's been through many kinds,
16:10different kinds of turmoil.
16:11Well, I'll remind you that in the mid-1970s, Dr. Eric Williams, the Prime Minister of Trinidad
16:18and Tobago, refused to attend any CARICOM heads of government meetings with the then Prime
16:25Minister of Guyana, Forbes Burnham, and the then Prime Minister of Jamaica, Michael Manley.
16:30He'd fallen out over them, with them, because they wanted to pursue relations with Comic-Con
16:37countries.
16:37Comic-Con is something now nobody remembers, but it was an invention by the Soviet Union
16:44to have socialist countries join together in some kind of economic grouping.
16:49Now, Dr. Williams was never for that.
16:51He believed in Caribbean integration.
16:53He thought that we as a people, one people, one Caribbean people, could find our own destiny
17:00by ourselves, that we did not need to have adventurism into different parts of, into different
17:07kinds of ideologies.
17:08So, for almost 10 years, CARICOM did not have a heads of government meeting.
17:15CARICOM continued at ministerial levels, but not at the heads of government.
17:19Now, what did that do?
17:20It set back CARICOM and the integration movement considerably, because the decisions that only
17:27heads of government could have taken to move the integration movement ahead more quickly
17:33were not taken during that 10-year period.
17:36What happened instead is that national solutions were being found to urgent problems.
17:42After 10 years, when you come back and things have not moved on, what in fact has happened
17:48is that while you have been standing still, the world has moved on.
17:52And so, from 1982 until now, 1982 is when we had the first heads of government conference,
17:59shortly after Dr. Williams died in 1981, and that we revived the CARICOM energy,
18:06and we put behind it the kind of energy that we see that it has today.
18:11And Trinidad and Tobago, leaders of all stripes, have paid a part in making sure that happened.
18:18A.N.R.
18:18Robinson, for instance, and also the former leader of Miss Passant, Miss Passant's political party.
18:30All of these people contributed.
18:32She herself, in her term as prime minister, during the last time she was in the caucus,
18:39made a contribution to the onward movement of our region.
18:42So, that does write off CARICOM because of one incident, which seems at the moment to be insurmountable.
18:50We can surmount this because we have the capacity to do it.
18:54It may take time.
18:55It may take a little urging.
18:57It will cause us to have, what it will demand of all of us is that we should have more
19:04dialogue with each other
19:05than we have had in the past, certainly in the recent past.
19:10And let us get down to the brass tacks of doing something about the region
19:15so that all of us can be safer as a result of it.
19:18We are living in a troubled world.
19:20Small states like ours cannot survive on their own.
19:24We need to be strengthened.
19:26We need to hold each other's hands.
19:29And we need to look carefully at the alliances which we must form in order to survive.
19:37Because even as CARICOM, CARICOM alone cannot defend itself,
19:41which is why CARICOM has always been a part of what we call a zone of peace.
19:46But it's not CARICOM alone that is declared a zone of peace.
19:50And you must remember that.
19:51In 2014, it was all of Latin America and Caribbean and CARICOM that talked about wanting the Caribbean to be
19:58a zone of peace.
19:59That's an important principle.
20:01But it's not a principle that says we cannot look for our security through alliances with others.
20:10It does not in any way deny that from happening.
20:13And I think the Prime Minister of Trinidad and Tobago has been saying that you have more crime in the
20:18Caribbean than any other CARICOM country.
20:21She's also said that you're faced with a bigger problem of drug trafficking than any other country in the Caribbean.
20:27Those two things are probably true.
20:30I'm not saying they are, but she's saying they are.
20:33And I think they're probably true.
20:35And she has a right, therefore, to be concerned about them and to try to find ways in which she
20:40can address them.
20:41Indeed, one of the best ways in which she can address them is to advance the idea that CARICOM should
20:48be pursuing these things together.
20:50So, Ronald, I accept the fact that you're seeing that these discussions, dialogue, should take place behind closed doors.
20:58But the facts are that there are so many documents that are already in the public domain.
21:05Most recently, WhatsApp messages disinviting the designated representatives of the heads from that particular retreat.
21:16Don't these issues ought to be resolved if Prime Minister Kamala Passat-Bassassar indicated from the offset from her speech
21:24at the opening of the heads of government conference that she does not support Dr. Barnett or there appear to
21:29be some resistance and the heads or the chairman knew that a vote was going to take place?
21:35Why have in this program of work CARICOM heads of government only?
21:41Don't we need to resolve those issues?
21:45Because the caucus is a caucus of heads of government only.
21:50Now, that's a different question as to whether it should have proceeded without all the heads of government present.
21:55But usually in these things, when heads of government cannot be present, and incidentally, there were two other heads of
22:02government not present at that meeting.
22:04The Prime Minister of Antigua and Barbuda was not there, and the Prime Minister of the Bahamas was not there.
22:09And why weren't they not there?
22:11Because they are both facing elections.
22:13Guyana has, Antigua and Barbuda has elections on the 30th of April, and the Bahamas has elections sometime in early
22:20May.
22:20So they were not there for good reason.
22:23Neither, incidentally, were their foreign ministers for the same reason.
22:26Their foreign ministers are candidates in the election, and they're fighting to hold on to their seats.
22:30So they had perfectly legitimate reasons for not being there.
22:34If you come back to the question, therefore, of whether this decision should have been taken without all heads of
22:40government present, my view is that we should have waited until they all were there.
22:45There was no rush.
22:46Dr. Barnett's term goes until August.
22:49We've got four more months to go.
22:51It's not something that needed to be rushed through.
22:54Why there was an urgency about it, I have no idea.
22:56But the truth is that big decisions of Caracol have always been made unanimously by heads of government.
23:08And the best decisions to make are those that are unanimously backed because everybody is behind it.
23:14So should there have been time to allow all heads of government to be present?
23:19Yes.
23:19That's an administrative and a judgment by the chairman.
23:24He made a judgment that he could go ahead with this and then talk to the other heads of government
23:29afterwards, which he did in the case of Antigua and Barbuda, and which he did in the case of the
23:34Bahamas.
23:34And I understand that he tried to do in the case of Trinidad and Tobago.
23:39I think where we had a difficulty is that he didn't reach the prime minister of Trinidad and Tobago, and
23:46they did not have that conversation.
23:48But I'm sure that had that connection been made, and the prime minister of Trinidad and Tobago had said to
23:55the prime minister of St. Kitschnevis, look, I am absolutely not going to go ahead with this.
24:00I oppose it.
24:01He would have had to take that fully on board before the announcement was made.
24:05But I would also remind you that Prime Minister Drew is new to this business, and we must not expect
24:12him to have the same kind of experience and knowledge that we may attribute to other heads of government who
24:20have been here before and who have the experience and knowledge to know better.
24:24Should there have been more transparency instead of cloaking the re-election of Dr. Barnett under the term financing and
24:33governance of the community?
24:35Well, it is a governance matter, so it wasn't cloaked.
24:39And I think everybody who had that timetable knew what governance meant.
24:44They didn't put it into the timetable for a very simple reason.
24:48You have that timetable in your hand.
24:50Journalists would have had it to their hand before the meeting began.
24:53So it would have signaled that the caucus was dealing with the selection of the secretary general.
25:00And incidentally, the selection of the secretary general of the commonwealth is also made in caucus by heads of government.
25:09So that's nothing new.
25:11I will ask for some clarity, Sir Ronald, because Article 24 of the revised treaty said that the secretary general
25:18shall be appointed by the conference.
25:20Now, according to Article 11, the conference is the heads or any person designated by a head.
25:28That would mean if we had a representative there in the name of our minister of foreign and curriculum affairs,
25:35Sean Sobers,
25:36he ought to have been allowed to vote in that conference.
25:40But he wasn't at the conference.
25:42He wasn't at the retreat because he was disinvited.
25:44But he was not, but it was at the retreat that the caucus rescheduled.
25:49Everybody knew that.
25:50So I'm not sure what the point you're making is here.
25:54If you're trying to go back to the legality of this and to rake over the codes of it.
25:58It seems deliberate, sir, Ronald.
26:00I know you can say that as much as you like, Ms. Ruth, the right.
26:04I'm not, and I'm not questioning your right to say it.
26:07All that I'm saying is that it's behind us now.
26:10We've gone past that stage.
26:12What we must look for now is not raking over codes, trying to assign blame and getting, in the words
26:20of the Caribbean, vexed with each other.
26:21What we have to do is to look to resolve this issue in the interests of the people of the
26:27Caribbean.
26:29So your proposal in that case is that Dr. Barnett ought to resign.
26:37She ought to step down.
26:38Now, what I'm saying, and let me be clear, is Dr. Barnett, if I were she, I'm not telling her
26:45what she should do.
26:46I'm saying what I would do if I were in her shoes.
26:49If I were the Secretary General of CARICOM and I recognized that I did not have the support of one
26:56of the major founding members of the country and its representative,
27:00and that I would never be able to have the trust and confidence of that person and to be able
27:06to share with them my own views and listen to theirs about the development of the region,
27:11then I would feel myself so encumbered as not to be able to carry out my function.
27:17And therefore, I would be doing the CARICOM secretariat and the people of the Caribbean a disservice.
27:23On that basis, I would withdraw my name from consideration.
27:27Bottom line, though, if Dr. Barnett does not resign, what happens next?
27:32Is CARICOM heading towards a deeper fracture or even irrelevance?
27:37I am not going to speculate on that because I think Dr. Barnett is a Caribbean integrationist, just as I
27:43am.
27:44And I think she will always put the region before the individual, including herself.
27:49As an advocate for regional unity, as you have been for decades and also for CARICOM,
27:56what is most dangerous at this time? What do we stand to lose as a region?
28:02Well, what is everything? And that is the truth of it.
28:05We are living in a troubled time in the world.
28:08There are conflicts happening all over the world which are impacting us now.
28:13To be concerned about this political point, when we are facing increases in the cost of living,
28:20shortages of all sorts of commodities, including vital fertilizer for agriculture,
28:25when we are facing a situation in which oil prices are skyrocketing and the cost of living is going up
28:33along with it,
28:34we should be concerned about how we alleviate that situation and how we as a region can try as best
28:40we can
28:41to build the resilience to deal with it and make the best contribution we can to the belligerents in these
28:48wars
28:49to come to the table of discussion and seek peace.
28:53Because peace and prosperity is what makes the Caribbean, which allows the Caribbean to develop.
28:59We cannot develop in times of conflict anywhere in the world.
29:03And we know that today better than at any other time in our history.
29:08As we close, one final question to you.
29:10Will you be willing to mediate, if necessary, between heads or between parties?
29:17It's not for me to mediate.
29:19I think that the heads of government themselves will reach the point where they will talk with each other.
29:25And I hope that the Trinidad and Tobago prime minister will be magnanimous herself in saying,
29:33I will sit with my colleagues and talk, because that's what's required.
29:37And less of the tweets, less of the WhatsApp messages, less of the social media stuff.
29:43And get down to the real business of governing the country.
29:46Let's all be adults.
29:47Let's all be mature.
29:49Let's recognize that the stake, what is at stake, is the future of the people of the Caribbean.
29:54What is at stake, is the future of the people of the Caribbean, Ambassador of Antigua and Barbuda to the
30:00United States.
30:00And, of course, Dean of Ambassadors of the Western Hemisphere countries.
30:05Of course, you're also a career diplomat.
30:07So, Ronald Sanders, let me thank you so much for joining us tonight.
30:11And, of course, sharing your expertise with us.
30:14Tonight's conversation, of course, reminds us of what is unfolding in CARICOM goes beyond personalities.
30:21It speaks to trust, process, and the kind of regional unity Caribbean people expect and deserve.
30:29Thank you so very much again, Sir Ronald, for your candid views.
30:33The questions surrounding the reappointment of Dr. Carla Bonnet have exposed deeper concerns,
30:38but also an opportunity for reflection, for accountability,
30:42and ultimately for strengthening the institutions meant to save us all.
30:48Whether this moment leads to greater division or meaningful reform
30:53will depend on the choices made by regional leaders in the days ahead.
30:57Thank you for joining us on Beyond the Headlines.
31:00I'm Urvashir Tawari Rupnerain.
31:02Good night from me.
31:03For this more news, up next.
31:05Beyond the Headlines.
31:07Beyond the Headlines.
31:10Beyond the Headlines.
31:14Beyond the Headlines.
31:15Beyond the Headlines.
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