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S01E04 >>> https://dai.ly/xa55i00
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00:00The computer system the Post Office spent an arm and a leg on is faulty.
00:04I haven't got that money.
00:06The losses must have been caused by Mr. Castleton's own error.
00:10You're inside Sir Postmaster's Horizon, and he doesn't know.
00:14We're ready to mount and fund an independent review.
00:18Mr. Rutherford's organization, Second Sight, will be working for us, the MPs,
00:22and therefore indirectly for you.
00:25They had no right to take you to court at all.
00:28They destroyed our whole life for a lie.
00:32Alan, it's Paula Vennels. Where do we go from here?
01:12Sorry, Martin. It's every red light on the way here, mate.
01:18You get later every day.
01:19Oh, come on. You don't get no more cheerful, pal.
01:23Just need to get home.
01:25Oh, we all do, mate. Long day?
01:27They're all long days.
01:28Any specials with these?
01:31Gyro pouch.
01:32Check pouch.
01:33I'll have to come back for them.
01:35Yeah.
01:47Oh, God.
02:00News!
02:02No question!
02:04Oh, come on in!
02:04Get somebody!
02:05Get somebody!
02:07Get somebody!
02:08Get somebody!
02:08I'm dying!
02:09Oh, my God!
02:11No!
02:14Please!
02:16Please!
02:17No!
02:17No!
02:18Just!
02:18Please!
02:19Don't get a hold of them!
02:20Oh God!
02:22Please!
02:23Please!
02:23Don't look at them!
02:25Please!
02:26Please!
02:27Come on!
02:27No, come on!
02:29No!
02:32Come on, there we are!
02:33Please!
02:34Yes!
02:34Go, go, go!
02:55Martin, let's talk about what happened.
02:58His total loss to post office funds that day were £54,354.96.
03:06Well, the police were there in five minutes. They got most of it back.
03:10This is a culpability interview, Martin.
03:13You've had the parcel hatch open and the safe.
03:16In accordance with section 12, paragraph 18 of the subpost master's contract...
03:21Martin!
03:22...you're bound to take reasonable precautions to safeguard official cash and property.
03:26You are therefore contractually liable for an amount of...
03:29£7,500? So now the armed robbery's our fault too.
03:34That wasn't the robbery that got me sacked.
03:37Sacked? What?
03:42I'm already under investigation for the Horizon Shortfalls and now the robbery.
03:47Three months' notice.
03:49Oh, Martin.
03:51For four years of every day opening that door waiting for...
03:56For what?
03:59For the day to end.
04:08Terminated for continued poor accounting performance.
04:12Not operating individual stock units correctly.
04:15Failure to make good losses in a timely manner.
04:17They're just going on and on about the contract and blaming Martin for everything.
04:23Never accepting it is Horizon's fault.
04:26How big did the shortfalls get?
04:31£61,000 altogether.
04:35They've had our savings already.
04:37And our parents.
04:41Alan, we've nothing left to give.
04:45OK.
04:46Wow.
04:47Every time we meet there's more of us.
04:49There's the vegetarian ones.
04:51And we're always ravenous.
04:53Are we eating Alan?
04:56That phone is a full-time job.
04:59I mean, the effect it had on the family was...
05:01I mean, not just me and Lise, but, you know, the kids.
05:05I mean, we had to move the schools, you know, because of the bullying and...
05:09And our daughter, Millie Jo, she hurt her teens and...
05:14I stopped eating.
05:17It was anorexia.
05:20And they say don't blame yourselves, but you do.
05:22Yeah, of course you do.
05:23And nobody understands, do they?
05:26Jo's always been very kind to us, hasn't she?
05:29We call her mum.
05:30Yeah.
05:31If she's mum, what's Alan?
05:34Dad.
05:34We don't call him dad.
05:36Alan's the godfather.
05:38Shall we crack on?
05:41Yep.
05:42The Donna's spoken.
05:46The thing is, Alan, I'm not sure my computer was really the problem.
05:52I just had endless power cuts.
05:5636 of them in one day.
05:59If you get a power cut in the middle of a transaction, poof!
06:01No wonder it comes out wrong.
06:04You see, my husband died.
06:08And I took over.
06:10It was just before Horizon was installed.
06:14But they didn't put the new electricity lines in properly, you see.
06:18Oh, Pam, really?
06:19Well, doesn't it just go to show how absolutely bloody useless they can be about the simplest bloody things?
06:26I told them when they closed me down.
06:29I said, if you can prove that I stole that money, then send the police around.
06:37Send them now.
06:42Since then, I have not slept.
06:45And I've been scared every waking moment, expecting that knock on the door.
06:52I'm sorry, I'm so sorry.
06:58You've got nothing to be sorry for, Pam.
07:04I'm just so...
07:05I was just so angry.
07:08I hate being so angry.
07:12If I ever say I've got to give this up, remind me about people like Pam.
07:20So, to recap, my chat with Paula Venels has resulted in a new investigation and mediation scheme
07:31which will allow all of us to apply for the compensation we deserve.
07:36Even people like me and Joe?
07:39Alan's got their commitment here in black and white.
07:43The post office says you may put your case through the mediation scheme
07:49even if you've already received a police caution
07:53or been subject to a criminal prosecution or conviction.
07:58If we got our money back.
08:00And they're all good names.
08:02An apology, even.
08:04Study on.
08:04I'll just get into the truth.
08:06So, with your agreement, Kay and I will defend your interests every step of the way.
08:14We will look into each individual case and fight our corner.
08:18I know, but Alan, do you trust them?
08:21I mean, do we trust them, really?
08:26Well...
08:28They're putting money and effort into it and...
08:31It's coming from the top, so...
08:34Well, it's got to be worth a try.
08:38Shall we have a vote?
08:41All those in favour?
08:53Great.
08:5440 soup pens change.
08:56Book of six first-class stamps, please.
08:59There you go. Thank you.
09:00Three pounds sixty.
09:00Sorry?
09:02Three pounds sixty.
09:04Three pounds sixty.
09:15For a long time, he suspected the staff.
09:18You know, of stealing from the tills.
09:23The bad feeling that's still causing.
09:25But if it wasn't them, then it had to be his fault.
09:28Like, he's stupid, which he isn't.
09:31That was before, before we knew about the Horizon thing.
09:36Can I talk to him?
09:38Well, he won't talk to me about it, even now.
09:40It drives me mad.
09:43I know he's got depression.
09:47He's a proud father, and I think he thinks he's failed us.
09:51Failed our family.
09:54Gina.
09:57Put him on.
10:07Love.
10:13It's Alan Bates.
10:15He wants to talk to you.
10:18Please, Martin.
10:29Martin?
10:32Yes?
10:33Listen.
10:34Martin.
10:36You're not alone.
10:39There's a lot of us, and...
10:41There's a new scheme you can apply for.
10:43I'm going to send you the forms.
10:46Martin, you might get some of your money back.
10:49Um...
10:51I can't talk to you right now.
10:53Ma...
10:55People are trying to help!
10:57Hey, I...
10:59I'm so sorry.
11:01He's just...
11:03Gina.
11:04I'll send you the forms, but...
11:07Get him to apply.
11:08It's important.
11:13I'll try.
11:19Bloody traffic.
11:22Hi.
11:23Oh, hi.
11:23I'm a little late for a meeting with Susan Crichton.
11:26Bob.
11:27Good to see you.
11:29Susan's left us.
11:32Why?
11:33New times, new opportunities.
11:36Moving forward, I'll be your main point of contact.
11:41This is Susan Crichton.
11:43I have left the post office.
11:45Thank you for not leaving a message.
11:47Bob.
11:50We need to talk.
11:52I'm not bloody signing up to this nonsense.
11:55The post office want me to stay on, but it's pointless.
11:58They've unilaterally taken away our access to the legal and prosecution files.
12:02I can't investigate in a blind foe with both hands tied behind my back.
12:07Alan, professionally, I just can't do it.
12:09Bob, grit your teeth.
12:11We can't do this without you.
12:13I don't know why you're doing it at all.
12:14You do know why.
12:15We have to go to mediation because we can't afford to go to law.
12:19You're an idiot. Trust them, Alan.
12:20I think they're mostly just a bunch of lying bastards.
12:23I don't think they're wasting your time and mine.
12:24Bob, if you walk away now, you'll never find out which of those bastards is lying,
12:30what they knew and when.
12:33And you'll never find out what happens at the end of the story.
12:40We must both be mad.
12:42We are.
12:43Pite.
12:46Big day tomorrow.
12:50Your appeal against dismissal.
12:55Martin?
13:06Why don't I run you a bath? It'll relax you.
13:08I'm all right. I'm okay. I'm okay.
13:15Please let me wash these clothes, eh? You've been wearing them for days.
13:19Don't you want to wash your hair, love?
13:20No, no. Stop.
13:21For tomorrow?
13:22Gina.
13:23It's a big day.
13:25All I'm saying is we could just make a little bit of an effort to look nice.
13:29Gina, leave me alone, please.
13:31Okay.
13:42We've been over this.
13:43A parcel hatch is about that big.
13:45Then you've got a sack of mail, which is, you know how big a sack of mail is, yeah?
13:51Once they were in with weapons, even if the safe was closed,
13:54what would you do if they threatened you and said open the safe?
14:03I hope you're having a fabulous morning. The time is now coming up at 6.20am,
14:07and it's time for a little traffic update.
14:10So it looks like there's congestion on the M62,
14:13and it's building up to the gunkorn turnoff.
14:16Martin?
14:18You're off early, love.
14:19Other than that, the roads are up to 30, yeah?
14:23Have a look at the weather now.
14:24What are the only clouds and average?
14:26That is the one you pulled in to stations and keep going to go home.
14:31But here you go.
14:33What are the wires turned to you show you to what I end to the 25,
14:36on that way?
14:37Yes, right?
14:44In the 6,0.
15:18I don't know.
15:27I don't know.
15:29Morning.
15:30Where is he?
15:31You don't know.
15:32Martin?
15:41It's not working.
15:43No, it's not.
15:44The other one is the other one.
15:46Are you Mrs. Griffith?
15:49Can we have a word in private?
15:51No.
16:09Yes.
16:12Okay.
16:15No.
16:18I...
16:21Of course.
16:24Thanks for letting me know.
16:37He never again consciousness.
16:40Oh, God.
16:45Gina's had to agree to switch off life support.
16:48Oh, love it.
16:53Blood on the hands now.
16:54What?
17:07Oh, dear.
17:12I'm sorry.
17:12I'm sorry.
17:14I'm sorry I'm sorry.
17:17I'm sorry.
17:18I'm sorry.
17:20Come on.
17:21I'm sorry.
17:21I'm sorry.
17:21You're sorry.
17:23I just...
17:23I'm sorry.
17:24I can have it.
17:28He had kids, Lee.
17:32Oh.
17:36I expect he thought he was doing him a favour.
17:43You didn't ever...
17:44No. No, I...
17:48No, not really.
17:58Sorry. Sorry.
18:04I'm sorry.
18:07Don't you ever do that?
18:12I can't have you feeling bad about this for the rest of your life.
18:23I could have just walked away.
18:29I could have just shut the shop.
18:33And just put us on a slow boat to China.
18:36Could have done that.
18:38They would have chased us all the way to China for that money, Lee.
18:41They were never gonna let go.
18:47Hey.
18:50I know you did it for us.
18:58I can't think straight.
19:02I don't know what to do.
19:05It's really very good of you to come.
19:09We're all so sorry for your loss.
19:13It was four days before his notice ran out and he still hadn't told the staff he'd been sacked.
19:18Yes.
19:20It's very hard.
19:21And his appeal against being fined for the robbery, it didn't come to anything.
19:25He didn't decide one way or the other.
19:29Stressful, obviously.
19:31I used to get so cross with him, Angela.
19:35I never did understand the problem.
19:37And he couldn't explain it just every morning going to work and say he was desperate.
19:41He was really desperate.
19:44Every morning the same words.
19:46I hate it.
19:53I can't bear it.
19:59For years.
20:04Can you imagine?
20:13We, uh, we're going to do right by you, Jaina.
20:21You can rely on us.
20:28So, as we launch this mediation scheme, I can confirm our agreement that Martin Griffith's case will be dealt with
20:35as a priority by this working group.
20:39Now, you've also received a request from the family that any approaches to Jaina should come through me.
20:46Yes.
20:47Yes, we are happy to agree to this too.
20:50Shall we declare this mediation scheme up and running?
20:54Yes.
20:54We have a long list of cases to examine, so let's get started.
21:01Right then.
21:02Start with Martin.
21:04First things first.
21:07Mr. Griffiths.
21:09Profits falling, Mrs. Reynolds.
21:11Government subsidy on its way out.
21:13That means a reckoning is on the horizon.
21:15Does it not?
21:16It does.
21:17Absolutely.
21:17And the whole point about this investment program is to make sure we have models that are commercially sustainable.
21:24And my ambition would be that within three to four years' time...
21:27Horizon.
21:29...the post office doesn't need to take taxpayers' money to support those post offices that can be commercially profitable.
21:35So Paula, if you don't mind me asking, you're CEO of the post office...
21:39Ask her about horizon...
21:41...but you're also a priest in the Church of England.
21:43How do you combine those two roles?
21:45Please.
21:46Very good, thank you.
21:48Good to see you.
21:49Thank you very much.
21:51Just one thing.
21:51This, um, horizon business.
21:54Anything in it?
21:56I beg your pardon?
21:58Horizon.
21:58Horizon.
21:59Some lurid allegations out there.
22:05Well, uh...
22:07Well, after two and a half years of investigations, it is now clear that the horizon system is robust...
22:13...and works as it should.
22:14Good.
22:23And God said to Solomon,
22:26Ask for whatever you want me to give you.
22:29And Solomon said,
22:32Give your servant a discerning heart to govern your people and to distinguish between right and wrong.
22:41The Lord was pleased that Solomon had asked for this.
22:45So God said to him,
22:48I will do what you have asked.
22:51I will give you a wise and discerning heart.
23:00I've been preparing for this mediation hearing for months.
23:04You will remember that I asked to see this data, the ARQ data from your system,
23:10so that I could see if it matched up to my data from my till in my branch.
23:16I kept everything, you see.
23:18Now, you told me I wouldn't be capable of interpreting the ARQ data because I was a silly woman.
23:25Or something.
23:27Anyway, may I direct you to page seven?
23:33Now, you will clearly see a two-hour period when money alterations were being put in,
23:40but not by me because I was serving customers.
23:45There is no functionality in the Horizon system to remotely access branch terminals.
23:50I just proved there is.
23:53Mrs. Stubbs, we have to tell you now that at this mediation meeting,
23:58we are under no legal or moral obligation to do anything whatsoever.
24:04And we are working on the principle of the contract which says that if you lose money, you repay it.
24:13Well, I'm finished with this, actually.
24:17I'm finished with you.
24:18See, I think you're lying to me.
24:20Mrs. Stubbs, calm down.
24:22And I know you're patronising me.
24:24And I'm going to tell the whole world what you are lying.
24:28May I remind you that you have signed a non-disclosure agreement?
24:30I'll talk to anyone who will listen.
24:33I'll stand up with all my papers and I will prove you lied about this.
24:38Mrs. Stubbs, this will have legal ramifications.
24:40You want to take me to court?
24:43I couldn't give a toss.
24:49The way they treat people.
24:54They are disfakable.
24:56I've never, ever been able to feel like it in my entire life.
25:01Pam?
25:02Pam?
25:04You're breaking up.
25:05Are they lying or just stupid?
25:10Hello?
25:16For a while there.
25:18Right at the start of mediation.
25:23You got close to trusting them, didn't you?
25:27Maybe.
25:30Despite every awful story they've heard.
25:34Despite all the work we've done.
25:36They still don't get it.
25:39They actually believe they're right.
25:42I understand your impatience, of course I do.
25:45But Alan, really, four closely typed pages of complaint.
25:50Finding the truth is the last thing they're interested in.
25:53Well, that's been our experience of their investigation.
25:57Well, will you at least acknowledge that before writing to the minister it might possibly have been useful to raise
26:02your concerns with Paula?
26:06Martin Griffiths is dead.
26:10Yes, I know.
26:12I, too, am concerned about the length of time mediation is taking, but Paula is very exercised.
26:19I'm sorry, James, but these mediation hearings are a joke.
26:24Well, let's just ask Paula about that, shall we?
26:31No, we have not dragged our feet.
26:34I've had 22 people working on this full time for more than a year.
26:38But not a single case finalised.
26:41And now I am told that people are walking out of their mediation meetings.
26:45Yes, it has taken longer than we would have liked.
26:48As Chief Executive of the Post Office, I could not put this scheme in place and not do it properly.
26:53The system and the people who work in our branches are too important for that.
26:59Well, at least we can agree on that one.
27:01Let's be clear, we still have allegations here of miscarriage of justice.
27:07Our lawyers advise the correct route for challenges to criminal prosecutions is via the Criminal Cases Review Commission to the
27:15Appeal Court.
27:16Hold on, hold on. No, you make promises, Paula.
27:17You promised me personally that my constituent, Joe Hamilton, whom I believe was wrongly convicted and with whom all of
27:25this started, would be eligible for mediation.
27:27Our lawyers advise that no mediation scheme has the power to overturn a criminal conviction.
27:33Paula, this is quite wrong.
27:36You have broken your words to me.
27:39And you have broken your word to the sub-postmasters.
27:43You have broken your words to Parliament.
27:51The Post Office has broken its word to members of Parliament in so many different respects.
27:57It may, of course, be that the trade of sub-postmastering was infiltrated by a sudden rash of criminals.
28:03I have met a lot of these people and I personally do not believe it.
28:08Frankly, I no longer trust the Post Office and will not be negotiating with it further.
28:14It has spent public money on a mediation scheme that it has set out to sabotage.
28:20He says he can get some interest from the select committee.
28:23Oh, not another talking shop.
28:26Personally, I'm looking forward to it.
28:28Probably more than Paula.
28:30Is it possible to access the system remotely or not?
28:35I hope it is that we know it is not possible and that we're able to explain why that is.
28:39I need to be able to say, no, it is not possible and we're sure of this because of XXX.
28:45I need the facts.
28:52That's Paula.
28:54She looks very smart.
28:56Very corporate.
29:00Who's the other one?
29:02Jilla van den Bogen.
29:04The gruesome twosome.
29:07Don't they have any blokes at the Post Office?
29:11I have spent a lot of the past 12 months...
29:14Yes, come on, Bob.
29:16...requesting access to documents that have been challenged.
29:18One issue we're looking into relates to Fujitsu's office in Bracknell.
29:24Now, we first requested documents relating to that almost two years ago and we have still not been provided with
29:31those documents.
29:32Um, may I respond?
29:34We did provide a year's worth of emails that Second Sight requested.
29:40Unfortunately, those emails that were provided were for the wrong year.
29:44That seems to me an amazing error. Are there any other issues?
29:49Probably most important would be full access to the legal and prosecution files held by the Post Office.
29:56Paula, why don't you make those files available?
29:59What's the problem?
30:01Er, the point I want to pick up first, if I may.
30:03No, no. Answer my question.
30:07Er, it is the first time, personally, that I've heard that. I'm happy to go away and have a look.
30:11They've been told that under no circumstances could they be given those files.
30:16Is that right or wrong?
30:18I... I do not recall that.
30:21And you could piss right off.
30:23That sounds to me like a shambles.
30:26We are hearing from Bob that your organisation has been obstructive to his independent work.
30:32Is that right or wrong?
30:33We have provided for every single case detailed, thorough, independent investigation.
30:38Let me stop you there. We've just heard from Bob, who is independent, that you have not.
30:44You are the head of the organisation. Will you provide the information? Yes or no?
30:49This is the first time that I have been asked for this information.
30:52Yes or no?
30:53I am not aware.
30:54Will you provide it? Yes or no? Give me a simple answer.
30:58Yes or no?
30:59I am not prepared, on behalf of the Post Office, to give...
31:02Right, I think I've got my answer. You won't provide it.
31:04No, you have not got your answer. You have not heard a yes or no.
31:08I am simply saying, at the moment, I am not able to answer your question.
31:12Honestly, I find it quite astonishing that you don't seem to know anything about an issue that is so politically
31:17and socially sensitive.
31:19I know a huge amount about this. I know the really important things about it.
31:23You are the Chief Executive, so the buck stops with you.
31:26It does stop with me. I am not denying at all that there are problems. Of course there are.
31:31There are problems in any organisation. But this is about the reputation of the Post Office.
31:36What?
31:37No, it's not. It's about people's lives, you moron.
31:49I slaughtered her.
31:52Paula's face. She had no idea what just happened.
31:56Gina Griffiths has pulled out of the mediation scheme.
31:59Well, that can't be right.
32:00Alan would have known that.
32:02Unless they went to her behind our backs.
32:04And what kind of people go back on a promise to a grieving widow?
32:09It's not a huge amount of money. Not, you know, life changing.
32:15And in return, you had to pull out a mediation.
32:19I've got nothing coming in, Alan. I was going to have to sell the house just to live.
32:25I imagine they also got you to sign a non-disclosure agreement.
32:29Proposy not to talk to anyone about Martin's case.
32:33I shouldn't even be speaking to you.
32:36They rang up, Alan. They said it was a one-day offer.
32:38If I didn't say yes by the end of the day, then...
32:44I'm sorry.
32:45It's all right, really.
32:48I understand.
32:53I don't blame you.
32:57When Angela came to see me...
33:00Angela Vandenbogert came here.
33:02She was nice, I thought.
33:05Kind.
33:08Now I don't know about any of them.
33:10I think you just...
33:12We just...
33:13cling to a notion, don't we?
33:18That people can't be that bad.
33:36Alan?
33:39Hello, Angela.
33:40Good news.
33:43No more reports for Bob to write.
33:45No more need for you to trail down to London.
33:47No more working group meetings.
33:49A new way forward.
33:51You're closing down the mediation scheme?
33:54No, no, no.
33:55No, no, no.
33:56No, no.
33:56Not closing it down.
33:57We're simplifying it.
34:00We're taking it in-house.
34:02We'll decide each case individually.
34:05Closing it down?
34:07After 18 months, it's in everyone's interest to speed things along now, don't you think?
34:15Well, if that's what you want to do.
34:18Oh!
34:19Right.
34:21Well, good to talk.
34:23Bye, Alan.
34:24Goodbye, Angela.
34:41Oh, you sots.
34:44Suzanne?
34:56I'm calling to tell you that I'm not allowed to talk to you anymore.
35:01Sacked again, eh?
35:03That was quick.
35:04Well, I consider pointing out that they're not allowed to just kick you and me off the working group.
35:09Well, not allowed to go around ruining people's lives or breaking their promises, but since when did that ever stop
35:16them?
35:17They are not just dropping us, Alan. They're rubbing our noses in it.
35:21They're making us destroy or return every single document they gave us.
35:26The whole investigation.
35:28Three years' work up in smoke.
35:32I'm so sorry, Alan.
35:38Nice knowing you, Bob.
35:41Yeah.
35:43Goodbye, Alan.
35:45Cheers.
35:53Hello?
36:01There you are.
36:03They're going ahead without me, without Bob, without anyone fighting our members' corner.
36:10I did look at paint charts, but in the end I think I just want white.
36:15I'll get it done this weekend and help take my mind off it.
36:21You what?
36:25Yeah, so, um...
36:30Tess came back positive.
36:37Hardly time to catch cold, is there? Let alone get cancer.
36:44Yes.
36:49You'll allow it for me.
36:54Yeah.
36:58They'll operate.
37:00It'll be fine.
37:02I'll live.
37:04I want to live.
37:05I have to.
37:07See some bastards go to prison.
37:17I'll put the kettle up.
37:30I'll put the kettle up.
37:38I'll put the kettle up.
37:39I'll put the kettle up.
37:44I'll put the kettle up.
37:46Hmm.
37:49Still here, then?
37:51Tough old bird.
37:57I've, er...
38:00I've been thinking.
38:02Oh, God.
38:04No, no.
38:08If we can't find a lawyer by, I don't know, December,
38:14maybe it's time to call it a day.
38:20You once said to me, if I ever start talking about giving up...
38:24That was then.
38:26Don't you dare give up on account of me, Alan.
38:29Well, I'm not. It's just, you know...
38:3412 years is long enough to keep banging my head against a brick wall.
38:40Don't you dare.
38:43Cos that wouldn't mean the last 12 years of my life meant nothing, too.
38:49OK.
38:51New plan, then.
38:53Oh, maybe you could have fought me a bit harder there.
38:56What about if we all apply, all of us,
39:00to see everything the post office has got on us?
39:04Horizon logs, investigation reports, accounts, all of it.
39:08And, er...
39:10And then, if we can see them...
39:18You have a lovely day.
39:20And don't dawdle when Mummy comes to pick you up.
39:24You can come in and help.
39:26No, darling, not today.
39:30Bye-bye, Joshua.
39:33Granny Jo loves you.
39:36Bye-bye.
39:39You were only going to be helping them make paper hats.
39:42Yeah, it's not the school's fault.
39:45They can't let me be alone with the children,
39:47and they know I've got a criminal record.
39:50Oh, God.
39:53I can't remember, will you?
39:55Oh, stop it.
40:07It's all right.
40:09Yeah.
40:10It's fine.
40:11I'd love a toast-based meal.
40:19Are you all right?
40:24Yeah.
40:26Never was any good to me, was it?
40:28All that defective equipment.
40:30Never did manage to pop any babies out of it.
40:34Let me know.
40:36When you think about the life we ended up having,
40:40maybe it's okay when children never came along.
40:55I'm here.
40:56Sorry.
40:58Oh, I think this might be what I've been waiting for.
41:00Citing.
41:01Signature there, please.
41:06Cheers.
41:06Do they think we're idiots or what?
41:09146 pages blacked out is ridiculous.
41:12Can you make any sense of exactly what's been redacted?
41:17No, I can't tell.
41:18It's all black.
41:18But I'll tell you what's definitely not there.
41:20The memo from my investigator.
41:23The one where he admitted there's no evidence against me.
41:25The one that proves it's a miscarriage of justice.
41:29Ridiculous.
41:31The sub-postmasters applied to see this information,
41:34as is their right.
41:36And the post office think they can just refuse to share it.
41:38Simply inexplicable.
41:40What the post office is saying is this,
41:43that there have been about half a million users of the Horizon system
41:46since it was introduced in 2001, involved in post office business,
41:50and that only 150 people have applied to the mediation scheme
41:55for events spanning more than a decade.
41:58The post office is saying that the idea that there is widespread unfairness
42:04is simply not true.
42:05Well, I would disagree.
42:07These are people who have been pillars of the community,
42:10who've had their reputations dragged through the mud,
42:12who've been sent to prison, some of them,
42:15and I understand that at least one has committed suicide.
42:19And Mrs Hamilton, you believe that you have done nothing wrong.
42:24I have done nothing wrong.
42:28I did not take a penny from the post office,
42:31but unfortunately the contract which runs...
42:34Excuse me, could you just turn the radio up?
42:36Thanks.
42:36Which many of us in the justice for sub-postmasters alliance
42:39didn't receive a copy of, says quite clearly
42:42the postmaster is contractually responsible for the losses.
42:45That's great.
42:46We did ask the post office for an interview.
42:49No one was available.
42:54Alan Page?
42:56Hi, Alan.
42:57My name's James Hartley. I'm a solicitor.
43:00Yeah, I just heard the Radio 4 piece.
43:03I think I can help.
43:05I always say to lawyers we're fighting a war
43:09against an enemy owned by the British government,
43:12which means they have mighty forces and bottomless pockets
43:16funded by the taxpayer,
43:18while we're just skint little people.
43:23Well, I specialise in contract law,
43:27and this contract is...
43:31114 pages of complete rubbish.
43:33I only got the two-page version.
43:36It's unfair. It's out of date.
43:38It even says you're not allowed to gamble on the premises.
43:41Yeah, when we've got lottery terminals.
43:43Yeah.
43:44But, you know, we all signed it,
43:47or some version of it, so...
43:48Well, yes, but...
43:50A contract that is not properly understood by both parties
43:55is not necessarily legally binding.
43:58OK.
44:00Look, I think it may be possible to raise the money
44:03to fight them in court.
44:05There are specialist funders
44:08who are willing to take the risk,
44:11but only if there are enough of you.
44:13We had 130 applicants to the mediation scheme
44:17before the post office destroyed it.
44:19Hmm.
44:22Well, how many would you need?
44:25At least 500.
44:31Well...
44:33I can do that.
44:51Hello?
44:53Is that Alan Bates?
44:55Yeah, who's this?
44:57I worked at Fujitsu.
44:59In technical support.
45:01I was going to call you yesterday, but...
45:03I wanted to make sure if I was on that planet, but...
45:05Hang on, hang on.
45:07You're breaking up. I'm going to pull over.
45:18Hello?
45:36Hello?
45:39Sorry, I got cut off.
45:40No, no, I...
45:41I lost you.
45:43I don't want anyone knowing I'm talking to you.
45:46Of course.
45:47I understand.
45:49But they're lying.
45:50That's the point.
45:52They say there's no remote access to branch accounts,
45:55but there was a whole room
45:57full of us inside Fujitsu,
45:59working overnights,
46:01doing thousands of corrections on horizon
46:03while the postmaster slept.
46:06Nobody's going to admit it, obviously.
46:09Are you still there?
46:10Yes.
46:11Sorry, just getting comfortable.
46:15Please, go on.
46:17We were just constantly firefighting.
46:19Coding errors, bugs, data corruption.
46:22Horizon was much worse than I thought.
46:24It was shocking. It needed scrapping, really.
46:26It was hard for me.
46:28It was hard for me
46:29and harder than I was personally.
46:31Cardinal's what is hiding
46:33In those weak and drunken hearts
46:37Guess he kissed the girls and made them cry
46:41Those hard-faced queens of misadventure
46:45People, help the people
46:51And if you're homesick, give me your hand and I'll hold it
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