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catching up with the royals with rev richard coles s01e03
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00:01Hello and welcome to Catching Up with the Royals, the show that never complains but always explains, with me Richard
00:06Coles.
00:07And me, Emily Andrews.
00:09Coming up, we discuss what's really going on behind the scenes as the royal family battle one of their biggest
00:14ever scandals.
00:16That's right, we're talking Andrew, Mountbatten Windsor in just a bit.
00:20Unthinkable thought for me until now, but do you think this could mean ultimately the end of the monarchy?
00:26The King, Queen Camilla, Prince of Wales have all been heckled recently.
00:32The age of deference is now dead, Richard.
00:34Plus, ahead of Valentine's Day, we'll be taking a look at some of the royal family's most enduring relationships.
00:40Well, I suppose Harry managed it with Meghan Markle because he saw her on Instagram.
00:45And looking at how exactly one goes about dating a royal.
00:49If a royal does start dating, how long before you, in your professional life, get to hear about it?
00:58We're both back. You from Ireland, me from the UAE, where I have been on the ground covering Prince William
01:08in Saudi Arabia,
01:09and also Princess Eugenie has been in Qatar.
01:13And I thought it's been very interesting seeing in real time how the royals have had to deal with the
01:20Andrew allegations this week.
01:22For those of you who might have not been across, because it's been so fast moving in politics and royal
01:27world.
01:28Just before William started his three day trip to Saudi, his office, Kensington Palace, issued a statement on his and
01:37the Princess of Wales' behalf.
01:39This was the first time that William and Catherine have ever spoken in the kind of, you know, long running
01:45saga of Andrew and Geoffrey Epstein.
01:47They said that the Prince and Princess of Wales have been deeply concerned by the continuing revelations.
01:52Their thoughts remain focused on the victims. That was on Monday.
01:55I did think that was quite unprecedented when I got, when Lee, their comms chief, sent it to my phone
02:00about like half an hour before the embargo broke.
02:02And suddenly everybody wanted, you know, me to appear as a commentator on all the airways.
02:08And then, of course, that night, Andrew was referred to Thames Valley police by the pressure group Republic.
02:13And that then rather forced the hand of Buckingham Palace, saying that the King has made clear in words and
02:19through unprecedented actions,
02:20his profound concern are allegations which continue to come to light and respect Mr. Mountbatten-Windsor's conduct.
02:26While the specific claims in question are for Mr. Mountbatten-Windsor to address if we are approached by Thames Valley
02:32police,
02:33we stand ready to support them as you would expect. That's pretty big, isn't it?
02:38Two words jumped out at me. One is they are saying the King has taken unprecedented actions, which seems a
02:45big offer, right?
02:46You wouldn't normally say that, would you? The King has done what the King is minded to do. Unprecedented.
02:51Actually, they recognise the seriousness and the gravity and the uniqueness of this problem.
02:54And the other one is continuing revelations in the Prince and Princes of Wales statement.
02:59They are making themselves available for further comment if further revelations come, which I suppose they will.
03:07On the ground, though, the journalists were not happy because the journalists felt, the pack, felt that William needed to
03:15do more.
03:15He needed to say something on camera. He needed to start answering...
03:19Well, yeah, an interview. And he needed to start saying what he knew and when.
03:23As in, not him personally, but the institution.
03:26The idea that you could have a one-size-fits-all response in these things, you can't do that anymore.
03:31Your grandma might have one thing, but actually there's more and more people thinking, no, no, we need more than
03:35that.
03:35No, and what was interesting was that it didn't stop.
03:38So Lee and the team at KP did it to try and get ahead of effectively the elephant in the
03:42room.
03:43In fact, I even texted him an emoji of an elephant and he was like, yeah, exactly.
03:48But they wanted to get ahead of it.
03:49So they felt they had to say something, but didn't stop the questions.
03:52It was a British broadcast journalist from GB news who twice shouted at William on the Tuesday.
03:58So, you know, have the royal family done enough about Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor?
04:04Now either, I don't think William heard.
04:06And if he did hear, he just ignored it.
04:08But, you know, the King, Queen Camilla, Prince of Wales have all been heckled recently.
04:15Unthinkable thought for me until now.
04:17But do you think this could mean ultimately the end of the monarchy?
04:21As you have said, it really does feel that the bastion of the British institution, the government and the royal
04:29family.
04:30I mean, could Epstein bring down the royal family?
04:33I would have thought that was an unthinkable thought until recently.
04:38And if I step back for it, I think, no, they've weathered storms before.
04:42I'm not sure where this ranks among the storms they've weathered, but it's pretty high.
04:46It might get higher.
04:46But just lately, I've started to think, you know, it only works if we want it to work.
04:52And if the behaviour or the conduct of Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor and Sarah Ferguson,
04:57although, of course, they deny any wrongdoing, as we've said,
04:59if that story continues to unfold in the same way, maybe that does make the institution weaker.
05:06And the other thing I think about it, if you're Prince William and you're thinking,
05:09my destiny is that, really?
05:12Would there not perhaps be a point when you think, maybe this is not really what I want to do?
05:18Or what I would want for my kids to do? I don't know.
05:20For me, this week, we almost saw Epstein bring down a British Prime Minister.
05:26And I want to separate the institution and the people.
05:29So we're talking about the institution for a second.
05:32I do feel it's a bit of an existential crisis for the institution,
05:36because we are seeing a real difference in how the government and how the royal family are treating it.
05:42You've got Starmer on the one hand.
05:43I mean, he sacked Mandelson, the British ambassador to the US last autumn.
05:47And then you've got the royal family.
05:49And the royal family have behaved in quite a different way.
05:51There's very little transparency, I would suggest.
05:54The King has de-princed Andrew.
05:56And he's now a private citizen, Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor.
06:00You've got MPs of every political persuasion saying that,
06:05well, he should answer the US, you know, FBI.
06:09That there's been two lots of attempts from the US authorities to try and question Andrew.
06:13That's come to nothing.
06:14And you've got MPs saying this isn't right.
06:17He should stand up and answer the questions asked of him.
06:21And this is a real, for me, sea change in how the government
06:26and the civil service that run our government are treating the monarchy.
06:29The age of deference is now dead, Richard, because the royals are just like you and I now.
06:35It's the way their comms is working.
06:37They're doing something new.
06:38A very interesting two separate but obviously coordinated statements
06:42from the Prince and Princess of Wales and from the King.
06:45And I just noticed in the one from William and Kate,
06:49continuing revelations.
06:50Normally they're kind of drawing a line, aren't they?
06:53But they're actually opening up the possibility
06:55that they're going to have to address continuing allegations.
06:57This might get worse.
06:59And they're reserving what they're going to do in response to that.
07:03What options have they got?
07:04What more can they do?
07:05Of course, Andrew denies any wrongdoing.
07:07Also, I'm told, Richard, by my sources, that he is in complete denial.
07:13He thinks he's one of the victims.
07:15He thinks that he's been put upon.
07:17I know, I know.
07:17For those of you that can't see if you're listening,
07:20Richard's just rolling his eyes.
07:21But exactly.
07:22It's a classic thing, isn't it?
07:23It's sort of, it's not just victim blaming,
07:26but it's imagining that you are the victim.
07:28I mean, it's the absolute embodiment of entitlement.
07:30Here he is.
07:31Not taking responsibility for that.
07:32He's behaving like, he's behaved like a 19th century prince,
07:35but he's been caught in the culture and media glare
07:38of the 21st century Me Too movement.
07:40I have to say, of course, that he denies all these allegations.
07:43And if that's the case, then, of course,
07:44he's entitled to feel victimised.
07:46But if he does, if he really does think that he's done nothing wrong,
07:50and I know Newsnight is a good example
07:51of why he shouldn't do this, then he should absolutely sit down
07:54with the US and indeed the UK authorities
07:56and tell them everything he knows and saw.
07:59But I was quite surprised, actually.
08:01Lee sent us all a statement saying,
08:03this is what the Prince and Princess of Wales,
08:05you know, on behalf of them.
08:08Personally, Richard, I didn't feel it went far enough.
08:12Right.
08:13Well, a change of mood, change of tone,
08:15because after the break we're going to be looking
08:17for Valentine's Day at Lyre.
08:20Now, question for you in the break.
08:22What was the shortest marriage in the history
08:25of the British royal family?
08:27We'll find out soon.
08:34Welcome back to Catching Up with the Royals.
08:35We left you with a question, Emily.
08:38Which is the shortest royal marriage on record?
08:40Do you know?
08:41No.
08:42I...
08:42I...
08:44I don't.
08:45Well, we have to go back nearly 500 years,
08:48because it's Anne of Cleves, who was the...
08:52The fourth wife of Henry VIII.
08:54She was.
08:56Do you remember, they sent a picture of her over,
08:58and he said, alright, and then she came over,
09:00and he described her as a fat Flanders mare.
09:02Yes!
09:03Which is not very flattering.
09:04And I think, wasn't it Hans Holbein was the artist,
09:07I think, of the portrait he'd gone,
09:09he'd been sent by Henry to go and take a picture of her.
09:12And I bet Henry wished for Instagram then,
09:15but he didn't have Instagram since the 16th century.
09:17And I mean, I can imagine that Hans Holbein got in a bit of trouble,
09:20because when Anne of Cleves eventually came over,
09:23her, apparently, her poor face didn't match the picture.
09:27Yeah, I mean, it's a tricky one, isn't it?
09:29What a difficult commission that would be.
09:31I know.
09:31Can I see what you're doing, Mr Holbein?
09:33Well, if you don't mind, your old highness, maybe just...
09:36Anyway, it was six months.
09:38Six months.
09:39I mean, it really kind of, like, reminds you, doesn't it,
09:42how marriage for royalty was a really transactional affair.
09:47I mean, famously, Henry had six wives,
09:51and whilst he might have, you know, got rid of,
09:55overthrown the Pope for lust with Anne Boleyn,
09:59actually quite a few of his marriages were for dynastic purposes.
10:03Yeah, and that's why royals were often married off to each other
10:05in many times when they were sort of children.
10:08Yes, especially the women.
10:09It also was a great way of acquiring wealth, wasn't it?
10:11I mean, so many Tudor families became enormously wealthy
10:14through strategic marriages.
10:15And even now, I think, aristocrats still factor that stuff in
10:21when they're thinking about what they want for their kids.
10:23Really?
10:23Yeah, I think so advantageous marriages are seen as...
10:25Because you've got to be able to do it, I guess.
10:28And that's why the royal thing is so important.
10:29If you think about what you have to do if you are a queen or a princess,
10:34if you've got some idea about what's coming,
10:36it probably makes for a better choice.
10:38But just because you're an aristocrat, right,
10:40does that necessarily mean you're going to do the job any better?
10:43Because, I mean, Princess Diana arguably changed the face of modern monarchy,
10:48but she almost kind of broke it
10:50because she did it in such a different way to her husband,
10:54who of course was the heir.
10:56You wonder, don't you, how it seems not a distant world,
11:00the world of a daughter of an earl, say, from the royal family.
11:03But actually, in some of the royal family,
11:04it's different from everybody else, aren't they?
11:06So maybe it was quite a...
11:08Although, where did Princess Diana grow up?
11:12Sandringham.
11:13Yeah.
11:13So I think, you know, they would have been around it, if not of it.
11:17I don't know.
11:18Power couples.
11:19Modern power couples.
11:21Modern ones.
11:21Yeah.
11:22From the royals.
11:22What do you reckon?
11:24Have you got a favourite?
11:25Well, I do, but it's not one I would offer as an example to emulate,
11:28and that would be Edward VIII and Mrs Simpson.
11:31Oh, really?
11:31Why?
11:33Well, it was just such a terrible moment in the British monarchy,
11:37such a sort of devastating thing that the king had to abdicate
11:41to marry the woman he loved.
11:42It was just such a fascinating story.
11:44It tells us, I think in a way, created the modern monarchy
11:47far more than anything else.
11:48Are you actually telling me you're an incurable romantic then?
11:51No, I'm not.
11:52I'm the opposite, in fact.
11:53I'm an incurable sceptic, probably.
11:56It went off like a depth charge, and the constitutional after effects
12:00of that match were hard to overstate.
12:04And also, there's something so tragic, in a way, about them ending up,
12:07living in Paris, and not a king and yet once was a king,
12:13not a royal highness and yet a royal highness, and all the bad blood
12:18between them and, you know, the fact that it meant that George VI
12:21had to become George VI and didn't want to do it.
12:23No.
12:24So, okay, so is that a power couple but an impotent couple?
12:28It's what can, I don't know, the other thing about it,
12:31of course, it dazzled the world, didn't it?
12:33I mean, when Edward VIII was the Prince of Wales,
12:35he was the most eligible bachelor in the world.
12:37I think he liked the ladies.
12:38I think he liked the ladies.
12:39And then the one he ended up with, of course,
12:41was the one that cost him his crown.
12:42So there's something about that that is so, it's like a story, isn't it?
12:46It's like a Greek tragedy.
12:47I really like Charles and Camilla because I think that,
12:53despite everything, Camilla has still retained her sense of humour
12:58and she is such a rock.
13:02It is actually quite an enduring love story.
13:06I mean, their relationship has lasted, I think, 50 years
13:10and, you know, some marriages don't even last, well,
13:14like Anna Cleves don't even last five months.
13:17And they're very, very sweet with each other.
13:21There is a thing where you do, you know, regardless of anything else,
13:25a part of you just thinks, oh, thank goodness,
13:27if people finally manage to sort themselves out and get happy together.
13:30Yeah.
13:30And I think she really does make him happy.
13:32I mean, when I've been on tour with them, I remember when I was in New Zealand,
13:36he doesn't, he doesn't eat lunch and, or he does now,
13:40but then for most of his working life, he hasn't eaten lunch.
13:43He's not eating lunch.
13:44Yeah, he doesn't eat lunch.
13:45He just keeps on going.
13:46You're a member of the royal family and you don't have lunch.
13:48No.
13:48What's the point?
13:49Well, I know.
13:50I think it would be very easy as a royal to overeat.
13:53Yeah.
13:54Everywhere you go, you're being offered tea, you're being offered cake,
13:56you're being offered alcohol, you're being offered canapes,
13:59you're being offered delicious three-quart Michelin-starved meals.
14:02So I think Charles has always been very careful what he eats
14:06and therefore he doesn't eat lunch.
14:07He does his military exercises every morning to keep fit like Prince Philip
14:10and then he doesn't eat lunch.
14:12But when I've seen them, I mean, sometimes Charles can get a bit grumpy.
14:18Sorry, sir.
14:18Sorry, sir.
14:19He can get a bit grumpy.
14:19And I remember we were flying on a private jet, on a PJ.
14:25A PJ?
14:25In a PJ.
14:26Not pajamas, but private jet.
14:27Not in our pajamas, on a PJ, private jet.
14:31And Charles, I can't remember, had we left?
14:33Timekeeping is very important.
14:35And we'd left a bit late or he was worried about,
14:37I can't quite remember now about the time.
14:39And I just saw, obviously I was at the back of the plane.
14:41It was only a small plane, but I was at the back, obviously, where I should be.
14:44They were seats 1A and 1B.
14:46And I could just see Camilla, she went over the gangway
14:51and was just sort of gently verbally stroking him.
14:55And I spoke to one of their very senior members of staff
14:59and he told me, he said, Emily, she can just sort the boss.
15:03They call Charles the boss.
15:04She can just sort him and mollify him in a way that no one else can.
15:11A few words from her, a little joke, a little bon mo, and she can turn his humor around.
15:18And that is so important, I think, both for their public and their personal relationship.
15:24I'm not at all surprised that, you know, royals can be bad tempered or peevish
15:28because the kind of frustrations of their life must be so awful.
15:33Well, I think actually they love it when things go wrong.
15:36And when you sometimes see, I remember at the Braemar games in the Highlands,
15:40there was something went wrong.
15:41Someone dropped a caber or someone...
15:43You should be so careful with those cabers.
15:44You've got to be careful with the cabers.
15:46Someone tossed it wrongly, maybe.
15:49And Charles was then Prince of Wales with the Duchess of Cornwall,
15:55or the Duchess of Rossi, as she then was.
15:57And they just caught each other's eye and they were just giggling.
16:02They're really trying to stop laughing, take it all seriously
16:06because they love it when things go wrong.
16:08Because there's this sort of apocryphal saying that all members of the royal family
16:12think that every place they go to smells of paint
16:15because everyone gets so stressed and worried when they get a royal visit.
16:19Everything has to look amazing.
16:20So everything gets a paint job.
16:22Do you know what I thought would be a weird thing for the late Queen?
16:25Towards the end of her reign, people stop clapping.
16:29Whenever you turn up anywhere, applause, applause, applause,
16:30and people stop clapping.
16:31Why?
16:32Because they're holding up their phone.
16:33And you can't clap if you're holding a phone in one hand.
16:37And I wondered if that must have felt a bit weird.
16:39They hated it.
16:40I remember a courtier saying to me
16:42that they hated the rise of mobile phones.
16:46They didn't like being filmed all the time because, exactly as you say,
16:50it got in the way of the interaction.
16:52But also, if you're holding up a phone, not only can you not clap,
16:55you can't talk to the member of the royal family.
16:59And getting snapped and papped all the time, they hated it.
17:03For their security detail,
17:05everyone in a crowd holding up an arm might be quite an uneasy.
17:10Threatening.
17:10Well, in a way, it might be sort of tricky for them.
17:12Yeah, I think so.
17:14I mean, the police protection officers, the PPOs,
17:16are very, very good at sort of spotting, they call it,
17:19spotting the crowd and making sure that, I mean,
17:23but there's only, you know, intelligence will only take you so far.
17:27But I think that meeting members of the public, obviously,
17:29is a very important part of the royal job.
17:31But here's the revenge.
17:32How on earth do you go on a date?
17:34How on earth do you woo someone?
17:36If everyone's filming you, everyone knows who you are.
17:39You have no private life and the media's all over you.
17:42Well, I guess the answer to that, wait for it, is you go to university.
17:48Oh, cool.
17:50Because if we look at someone like Lady Louise Windsor,
17:52now I know that you know that Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor,
17:57to give her her full title, is the daughter of the Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh.
18:01She's currently at university in St Andrews and she is courting.
18:05She's courting a young man, a fellow university student,
18:08but because she's at university, a bit like William and Kate before her,
18:12same university, St Andrews, it's kind of protected.
18:16The press have, there's under, you know, the press leave them alone
18:21because they're still in education.
18:24Occasionally, if he goes to watch her carriage driving with Sophie,
18:28there might be pictures of him.
18:30Carriage driving?
18:31Oh yeah, Louise has taken after her grandpa, Prince Philip.
18:34Kind of a big ask on a first date is,
18:36why don't you come and watch me carriage driving,
18:38a habit I acquired from my grandfather, Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh.
18:43Do you know what I mean?
18:44I know.
18:44But I think, I think in the modern age,
18:47you can probably court in exactly the same way.
18:52What, hinge?
18:53I reckon you could.
18:54Could you have a royal hinge?
18:56Grinder?
18:56Grinder.
18:57Now there's a thought.
18:58I imagine you'd do it through a pseudonym, wouldn't you?
19:00You wouldn't have a real identity.
19:01Or perhaps you would, I don't know.
19:03Well, Harry used to be on Facebook.
19:06As himself?
19:07Under, no, under a pseudonym.
19:09In fact, funny story, actually from your neck of the woods.
19:13Harry used to be on Facebook under the name of Spike Wells.
19:16And there's actually quite a famous jazz musician called Spike Wells from the Brighton-Lewis area.
19:27And he had to send a cease and desist letter to Kensington Palace to say,
19:35will you please tell Prince Harry, stop impersonating me because this is actually my name.
19:41And stop impersonating me on Facebook.
19:43But I mean, when I talk to my nephews and nieces and younger people, they're all dating on apps now,
19:48right?
19:49But pictures and biographies and describe yourself in a sentence sort of thing.
19:53How do you do that if you are Lady XYZ or the Duke of Odyssey?
19:58Well, I suppose Harry managed it.
20:00Prince Harry managed it, didn't he, with Meghan Markle, because he saw her on Instagram.
20:06Famously, he tells the story himself that he saw her.
20:09They never revealed the friend, but I think it was Violet von Weston Holtz.
20:12So somebody said, oh, there's a blinded.
20:15She was with Violet.
20:17There's this filter that you can use on Instagram where you can put like little dog ears.
20:20I mean, I know it all sounds, yeah, I'm with you.
20:22So Harry was flicking through his mate's Instagram and there was Meghan and Violet with the dog ears.
20:30And he was like, who is that?
20:32Who's that lovely woman with the ears of a dog?
20:34Yeah, yeah.
20:35Yeah, exactly.
20:36And then he got Meghan's number and pursued her with texts for dates.
20:41So actually, that's a very modern way, isn't it?
20:44If a royal does start dating, how long before you in your professional life get to hear about it?
20:49Generally speaking, not long.
20:53I mean, with Harry, it was about three months.
20:56They met in the July and then it was Halloween when the story broke about him and Meghan.
21:03Obviously with William and not just Catherine, who he dated at St. Andrews.
21:13He'd had a couple of earlier girlfriends.
21:16They weren't really written about partly because he was at university and so kind of protected.
21:25With Kate, it was a skiing holiday that he had gone on with her and they were pictured together, which
21:36was why kind of the hairs were set running.
21:38So I think it kind of depends.
21:39I mean, but I guess my inference to your question is that they don't have long, do they?
21:45No.
21:45When it's still quite private.
21:47And it's really hard.
21:47I think it must be incredibly hard to try and conduct a relationship in the full glare of the public
21:54gaze.
21:54And also, if you're trying to keep it quiet, how very difficult to do that too because, I mean, a
21:58cab driver or somebody in a shop or a travel agent could say, oh, that's interesting, and could phone you
22:03up, right?
22:04They could.
22:05Yeah, definitely.
22:06I mean, we did get tip-offs when Harry and Meghan used to go to the theatre and, you know,
22:12an actress, she liked to go and see shows when they were still living in London.
22:15We used to get tip-offs from members of the public.
22:17They used to get pictures taken, mobile phone pictures, put on social media.
22:22Better journalists than me were brilliant at super sleuthing, finding all these things.
22:27And so I think it means, I mean, William and Kate still can go on dates, for instance.
22:35With each other?
22:36With each other.
22:37And indeed, they take the children.
22:39I mean, I think recently, Kate.
22:40Date nights?
22:41Date nights.
22:41Yeah.
22:42Yeah, be on date nights.
22:43Yeah, William and Kate, actually, they, it's a local pub near their Anmer Hall home in Norfolk.
22:51And they used to have, when the kids, when they were still living in Norfolk and the kids were really
22:54small,
22:55I think it was every Tuesday night or every Thursday night, they used to go there for date night.
22:59Just the two of them, just to kind of, and the locals, and the locals just completely left them alone.
23:04A packet of crisps, game of dominoes.
23:05Yeah.
23:06No, genuinely.
23:07Sometimes they didn't even have food.
23:08They would just go and have, he'd have a pint of cider or a pint of beer.
23:12She'd have a small white wine.
23:14Just to kind of have a chat, be normal.
23:17It's funny when you do hear about the times when they were happiest, especially in their married lives.
23:22It's before they were, like with William and Catherine, it was when they were in Anglesey.
23:27Yeah.
23:27When you're kind of not in the middle of things and not having to do all that heavy lifting.
23:31No, absolutely.
23:33I think that's maybe when they felt they could be the most real.
23:36The Queen and Prince Philip when they were first married.
23:39In Malta.
23:39In Malta, yeah.
23:40If you want to continue catching up with the Royals, hopefully you're watching this on a Thursday.
23:45We come out every Thursday on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.
23:49And don't forget, you can watch us on Saturday on 5 or stream us on 5.
23:56Now.
23:56Yes.
23:57Richard.
23:58Yes.
23:58I've got a question for you.
23:59I'm excited.
24:00I love questions.
24:01I know you do.
24:02You'll probably know the answer.
24:03How many royal weddings have there been in Westminster Abbey?
24:10Millions, I'd have thought.
24:12We'll tell you after the break.
24:20I asked the lovely Richard how many royal weddings he thought there'd been at Westminster Abbey.
24:25Now, did you know the answer?
24:28What?
24:29Did you?
24:29Well, I thought it must be dozens.
24:32I did say millions.
24:33It must be dozens and dozens over the centuries.
24:35Well, this surprised me.
24:3816.
24:38Really?
24:3916 royal weddings at Westminster Abbey.
24:41I guess because some of the biggies, like Charles and Diana got married at St. Paul's.
24:46And actually, I think if you go back into the kind of history books, a lot of weddings were not
24:52the big royal spectacle that they are now.
24:54They were quite small affairs.
24:56Maybe it's St. James's Palace or...
24:58Yeah.
24:59I mean, I think the older you would have...
25:00It's like royal baptisms tend to be done at home.
25:02Yeah.
25:03Yeah.
25:04Or, well, I mean, not at...
25:05Well, at home, but in a place of worship at home.
25:07Exactly.
25:08And I guess when you were doing dynastic marriages, I mean, sometimes they had proxies, didn't they, stand in for
25:13it?
25:13Yeah.
25:14Because they were, I don't know, eight years old and in Bohemia.
25:18Harry and Meghan's, we went to St. George's.
25:21They got married in Windsor Castle and St. George's Chapel.
25:24And I remember I was actually in Windsor Great Park when I got the communique saying that there were going
25:31to be no journalists actually in St. George's Chapel.
25:34Now, for William and Kate's wedding, we were in Westminster Abbey.
25:39Yeah.
25:39Sort of press gallery.
25:40Yeah.
25:40We're kind of up in the gods or like right at the back, but...
25:43But there.
25:44And we could, you know, there were screens and stuff and we could see it.
25:47But Harry, he was so angry with all of us, he banned us from the chapel.
25:52In fact, we had to fight really hard to have one member from the Press Association actually in the chapel.
25:58And we were in the Undercroft in the upper ward in Windsor Castle, watching it all on a TV screen.
26:06All that way.
26:07It was quite a stressful day.
26:08But, you know, a nice day.
26:10A nice day.
26:12Well, I mean, royal weddings are complicated things, aren't they?
26:15Because the whole, it's not just...
26:17It's not just about love.
26:18No.
26:18It's not just about the love.
26:20Do you have a favourite complicated royal wedding?
26:22Or a royal wedding that didn't happen because it all got kind of thwarted for dynastic reasons or legal reasons?
26:27Well, I always enjoy learning and reading about the Virgin Queen, Elizabeth I.
26:36Everyone's favourite monarch.
26:37Everyone's favourite monarch.
26:38Well, not everyone's favourite monarch.
26:39But, I mean, she's a behemoth, isn't she, of history?
26:45And she famously was the Virgin Queen.
26:49She never got married.
26:50But she had a lifelong relationship, friendship with Robert Dudley.
26:56And, but she never got married.
26:59Now, she probably couldn't have married Dudley.
27:02I think she made him the Earl of Leicester.
27:04Yeah.
27:04I think she created him as the Earl of Leicester, but even so, he wasn't royal.
27:09Well, that would have given him a reason to be around, to be in court.
27:13Well, exactly.
27:13Yeah.
27:13Because she ennobled him.
27:14But really, as a queen regnant, she had to make a political and dynastic marriage.
27:20But, of course, had she married Archduke Ferdinand, or like one of the Habsburgs, or had she married
27:29whomever else might have been on the political scene, then that would have put someone else's nose out of joint.
27:35So if she'd have made a decision to marry, that might have, you know, put the French king's nose out
27:42of joint, or the Scottish king's.
27:44So by not marrying, she kept everyone on their toes.
27:47And an added complication, of course.
27:49It would be about a time of huge religious turbulence.
27:51Yeah.
27:51Was England going to be a Catholic country?
27:53Had it been under Mary, returned to the old management, as it were, or was it going to be a
27:57Protestant country?
27:58And that took a while to settle down in her reign.
28:00But, you know, there was a high stakes game in those days, wasn't there?
28:03There's a lovely poem by Ursula Fanthorpe, in which she talks about Tudor states all being portrayed with big ruffs
28:08on, as kind of neck protectors.
28:10Because they all kind of knew.
28:12Keep your neck, keep your head on.
28:12Keep your neck protected.
28:13Keep your neck protected.
28:14Well protected, yeah.
28:15But I think that's the thing, but I think Elizabeth was very, Elizabeth I was very canny, because she used
28:20her virginity and her femininity more adroitly by not getting married.
28:27And I personally, I mean, I guess we'll never know, I don't think, I'm sure there are greater scholars than
28:32me, certainly, definitely, who have considered the question of whether she ever consummates your relationship.
28:38But it would have been very, very risky.
28:42It would have been very risky for Elizabeth I to do so.
28:46Because, of course, if you bore a child outside marriage, it was illegitimate.
28:51And it didn't really matter whether you're the monarch or no, because Henry VIII had an illegitimate son, Henry Fitzsimmons,
28:57but he was obviously not allowed anywhere near the throne.
29:00And it made you, if you're an illegitimate child, more likely to be killed.
29:04And let us not forget, Elizabeth I's mother was Anne Boleyn.
29:08Yeah.
29:09And she discovered that the accusation of having messed around when she was married to King Henry VIII was a
29:15very costly thing.
29:16I am not a Tudor historian, but I personally don't think she was unfaithful to Henry.
29:24No, I think it's highly unlikely.
29:26But that wasn't the point.
29:28That's not the point.
29:28She was surplus to requirements because he'd moved on to Jane Seymour.
29:32Yeah.
29:32And I think also with Henry VIII, there's a speculation that he had had a jousting accident, hadn't he, and
29:37that his mental health was badly affected by it.
29:40And, you know, he'd got into a habit then of wives were expedient.
29:44Yeah.
29:44And Anne Boleyn, well, ended up getting beheaded.
29:48Yeah.
29:49And wasn't the only one.
29:51No.
29:52Catherine Howard.
29:53Yeah.
29:54I mean, in our own days, there have been people who had to choose in a very romantic way, putting
29:59it between live and duty.
30:02Princess Margaret, the late Queen's sister, and group captain Peter Teller was in the Aquarii, I think, wasn't he?
30:06He was.
30:07Yes, to her father.
30:07And she fell in love with a dashing airman.
30:10And they had an affair.
30:12She famously brushed a piece of lint from his tunic outside West Windsor Abbey or something, didn't she?
30:17That's right.
30:17And that's how the press cottoned on.
30:20Cottoned on.
30:21Cottoned on.
30:22Do you like to see what I did there?
30:23But unfortunately for Margaret, he was divorced.
30:26And of course, in the 1950s, it was completely unconscionable for a royal princess to marry a divorcee.
30:35We have to put that, I mean, as we said earlier, we have to put that in the context, obviously,
30:39of Edward VIII and Wallace Simpson.
30:41I mean, he wasn't allowed to marry a divorcee, so then you couldn't have his niece.
30:44It also would require the consent of the Queen, and the Queen was the Supreme Governor of the Church of
30:49England, which at that time didn't allow people to re-marriage divorcee.
30:53So you can see that that was, if you're going to do that, then you need to walk away from
30:57your royal life.
30:59The narrative is that she was forbidden by the Queen, but I personally understood that actually she was given the
31:08choice to effectively renounce her titles and, crucially, the money.
31:14Yeah.
31:15And she said no.
31:17My sense of Princess Margaret was that she wasn't someone who was really designed for a life that was less
31:21than five star.
31:23No.
31:24I think that's a good description, a bit like the prince formerly known as Andrew.
31:28Well, I don't know.
31:30I couldn't possibly comment.
31:31But, of course, Princess Margaret then went on to marry Anthony Armstrong Jones, later Lord Snowden, and unfortunately that marriage
31:37didn't turn out so well.
31:38No.
31:401952 is only 70 years ago, which in the grand scheme of things is quite a short space of time.
31:46But there was absolutely no problem with Prince Harry marrying a divorcee, because, of course, Meghan was divorced from her
31:52first husband.
31:54And it's easy, I think, to forget how seminal it was for the late Queen, Queen Elizabeth, about a British
32:03member of the royal family marrying an American divorcee.
32:07And if it did sort of give her any trigger warnings, the late Queen, she certainly didn't show it.
32:13I mean, I guess a lot had happened as we kind of gradually got used to the idea of Prince
32:17Charles, who was then, and Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall, as she was then.
32:20As that relationship became more normalised, then you thought, oh, well, this can work.
32:24And also, I think one of the roles of the royal family is to reflect society and culture at the
32:32time, at our time, whatever that time may be.
32:35And obviously, now, quite rightly, we're a very inclusive society.
32:40The Church of England has changed a lot.
32:43I mean, I could definitely see a member of the royal family coming out publicly as gay, and it'd be
32:48absolutely fine.
32:49No, it would bat an eyelid.
32:51Could you imagine a sort of, well, you can't do the work as a Church of England rules don't permit,
32:55but a sort of same-sex marriage in St George's Chapel, Windsor, one day.
32:59That'd be lovely.
33:00That really would be, you know, times changing.
33:03William and Catherine's relationship was allowed quite a lot of privacy at the start when they were at St Andrews.
33:08But obviously, when they left university, that was a bit more tricky.
33:13And actually, I remember going to a nightclub in Fulham, where I know those were the days.
33:19You hang out in all the racy places.
33:20Those were the days, Richard, just off the King's Road.
33:23And it was a basement, subterranean nightclub, where a bottle of champagne was probably only at that point about 30
33:32quid.
33:33But I remember a newly single, Prince William, was at this nightclub.
33:39And I and a very foxy friend managed to talk our way into the nightclub.
33:45And it was full of kind of Blues and Royals officers.
33:50William was in the army at this point.
33:52And he'd just split up from Catherine.
33:54They had left university.
33:56Someone said he was at the club.
33:57And I was like, oh, yeah, whatever.
33:59I was there with my foxy friend.
34:01And we were getting bought drinks left, right and centre, which was lovely.
34:05Those were the days.
34:06Anyway, it was about one o'clock in the morning.
34:08And suddenly, I mean, I don't know about you, but I go to bed.
34:11I'm in bed by 9pm these days.
34:13But so those were the days.
34:14Anyway, there was a really big song at the time, 50 Cent Inder Club.
34:20And suddenly there was this kind of like rush of energy and air.
34:26And a very tall, good looking man with a full head of blonde hair erupted onto the dance floor
34:34and started jumping up and down to 50 Cent Inder Club and literally rocking the nightclub.
34:39And it was it was Prince William.
34:41And so everyone kind of all the girls were like, oh, and all the guys.
34:44Oh, my goodness.
34:45Because he'd been in a private bit, I think, drinking with mates.
34:49But what was so extraordinary.
34:50I mean, it was quite funny watching Prince William jump up and down to Inder Club.
34:55But what was so funny.
34:56Can he move?
34:56Pardon?
34:56Can he move?
34:57Yeah.
34:58Yeah.
34:58The boy can dance.
35:00Yeah, I was quite impressed, actually.
35:01He had some sense of rhythm.
35:02But what was quite funny after was that there was just dance music, you know, cheesy dance.
35:08And then at one point, quite a few people on the dance floor started doing ballroom dancing to the club
35:14hits of the time.
35:16That's so weird.
35:17And my slightly alcohol-addled memory tells me that it was called windmilling.
35:22I don't know why, you know, other recollections may vary.
35:25But that was my memory of clubbing Prince William.
35:29And then my mate who I was with, he started dancing with her.
35:32And I slightly drunkenly was taking some pictures.
35:36And then the police protection officer came and had a word with me and said, could I stop, please?
35:44I was like, yeah, of course.
35:45Did he want you to delete those pictures?
35:48I think he was just really nice about it and just said, can you just stop?
35:51Right.
35:51I didn't.
35:52I didn't delete them.
35:53Okay.
35:54Show me next week.
35:54I'll bring them next week.
35:56Excellent.
35:57Is that the only time you've danced with the Royal?
36:00It's not the only time.
36:02I mean anything.
36:03I know.
36:03I love a bit of dancing.
36:04I've done a little dance with the King.
36:07Now he can dance, King Charles.
36:10Yeah.
36:10And he loves music.
36:11Yeah.
36:12He loves music.
36:12Have you ever danced with the Royal?
36:13I don't think I have.
36:15No.
36:16Well, if I tried to, they'd run a mile.
36:18I'd probably be shot by the close protection squad.
36:21No, you wouldn't.
36:22Well, Camilla loves Strictly.
36:24Well, yes.
36:25Well, the Queen watched Strictly too, I was told.
36:27And voted.
36:27There was a story, and I was sad actually, and apparently it was going to happen, I think,
36:32but COVID got in the way.
36:33They were going to host an edition of Strictly at Buckingham Palace.
36:37Really?
36:38Yes.
36:39In the ballroom.
36:40And that would have been brilliant.
36:42I mean, forget Blackpool.
36:43The ballroom of Buckingham Palace would have been brilliant.
36:45One of those things you could see.
36:46I could just see how that would get derailed before the final green light.
36:49Great idea, but you're just sort of thinking, no, maybe not.
36:52Really?
36:52Maybe not.
36:53Why would it get derailed?
36:55Security?
36:57Or just, would they think it's a bit naff?
36:59Can you imagine if Craig Revel Horwood just did a nought, and it looked like a judgement
37:02on the monarchy rather than a judgement on a dance?
37:05I don't know.
37:05All that stuff needs to be...
37:07Well, you don't.
37:08You're too young to remember the It's a Royal Knockout fiasco, but I remember that.
37:11Time for a break now, but before we do, here is your question.
37:14And it's this.
37:16In medieval times, how would a monarch know if a lady was interested in him?
37:22Oh, not the other way around.
37:24No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
37:25This is Lady on King.
37:26She wanted to show her favour.
37:28Okay.
37:28Yeah.
37:29Back after this.
37:36Welcome back to Catching up with the Royals.
37:38And the question we left you was, how would a lady in medieval, or indeed early modern,
37:43Europe, express a desire and interest, a romantic, erotic, sexual interest in a monarch?
37:47Well, the token of the glove.
37:49She would give the monarch a glove, and that would be a sort of come-hither gesture.
37:54Not a subtle one, really, is it?
37:56No.
37:57Whack off your glove.
37:58Rather, it might be misinterpreted as throwing down a gauntlet.
38:01Exactly.
38:02And also, surely, if you're in the court, and there's a single prince, or the king is single,
38:12surely you don't have to express your interest, isn't it, up to him?
38:14Well, maybe the king isn't single.
38:16Oh.
38:16You see?
38:17Maybe you would be a mistress of the king.
38:19Well, it's time for our viewer questions, so let's see what's been popped in the royal
38:23box this week.
38:24The question is, Simon emails in to royals at spirit-studies.com.
38:28Please do email.
38:29And says, do the royals ever get to cook their own food?
38:32And if so, how do they determine who gets a private chef or not?
38:36Are they able to make requests?
38:39Well, I think they do, because I think what you do want sometimes is to have just a...
38:43I mean, I found that some people who live that kind of life, they have the sort of big dining
38:47room stuff and the big kitchen and the people who cook the food, but they tend to have a
38:50private kitchen, a private dining room too, where you could just have a night in and watch
38:53telly.
38:54Yeah, actually, I think the royals can be just as normal as us.
38:57I mean, I remember that Harry used to send out for a takeaway when he lived at Kensington
39:01Palace.
39:02He used to get his...
39:04He would order the takeaway, and then he'd get his PPO's, police protection officers,
39:07to go and pick it up.
39:09Oh, fun job for them, eh?
39:10And also...
39:11How many times can you go to Nando's in a week?
39:12Well, I know, I know.
39:14And when I...
39:15Well, I mean, probably seven nights if you're Harry, if you're Prince Harry.
39:20Actually, I've...
39:20It is Nando's, isn't it?
39:22It is Nando's.
39:23Or maybe he'd be into some...
39:24Yeah, he liked burgers as well.
39:26Oh no, I'll tell you what, his favourite.
39:28There's a posh sandwich shop near Buckingham Palace, and one of the members of staff told
39:32me that Harry's favourite sandwich was like a cheese and ham, double kind of croque monsieur
39:40type thing.
39:41I mean, calories...
39:42Calorie central.
39:43What a young lad, full of beans.
39:45Full of beans, running around.
39:46I'm not sure his 40-year-old self could quite cope with the California lifestyle now.
39:51No, it's probably sushi now, isn't it?
39:52Sushi.
39:52That's all they eat in California.
39:53Yeah, sushi.
39:54Sushi.
39:55Avocado.
39:55Avocado.
39:56Yeah.
39:56I have seen Harry in a supermarket.
40:00What, doing shopping?
40:01Actually, yes.
40:02In the Waitrose on Kensington High Street.
40:05I actually saw him doing his own shopping.
40:07And he used to quite like doing his own shopping.
40:09Other people go, oh my goodness, it's Prince Harry.
40:14And then you see them sort of thinking, am I...
40:17Should I go and...
40:18Should I go and talk to them?
40:19Can I go and ask for an autograph?
40:20But there's always one or two police protection officers just to kind of act as a bit of a barrier.
40:24I saw Queen Margaret of Denmark browsing in a bookshop.
40:27Did you?
40:28Yeah.
40:29Whereabouts?
40:29In the UK or in Denmark?
40:31Hachards and Piccadilly.
40:32Oh, okay.
40:33Having a good old look at the bookshop.
40:34A lady-in-waiting with her, I think.
40:36Or maybe it was an unlikely looking security guard, I don't know.
40:39Okay, but going back to royals and cooking.
40:43Catherine, the Princess of Wales, and I have talked cooking in India.
40:48We were in Bhutan.
40:49Amazing country, Richard.
40:51I don't know if you'd be...
40:51I'd love to go.
40:52You'd love it.
40:53Himalayan Kingdom, landlocked.
40:55It was quite scary.
40:57Only seven pilots in the world could fly us in.
40:59But I kind of figured that we were on a plane with William and Kate,
41:01and I figured that, you know, hopefully we should be quite safe.
41:04William wasn't flying.
41:05So that was probably a good thing.
41:06Sorry, William.
41:07Your flying is brilliant.
41:08Really.
41:09Anyway, we were in Bhutan, and Kate and I were talking about...
41:11She really likes Indian food.
41:12So she cooks Indian food from scratch, and...
41:16But she did admit to me that occasionally she does like an Indian takeaway.
41:19Ooh.
41:20Mmm.
41:21I bet they go to, like, posh one, like Dishum, though,
41:23rather than the star of Bengal around the corner.
41:26I don't know.
41:26Yeah, I think maybe there's a room for both.
41:29But then if you are...
41:31I mean, I can't imagine Princess Margaret would have known how to boil an egg.
41:34No.
41:34So for that kind of royal, if you're living in Kensington Palace,
41:37or wherever it might be, would there just be a sort of chef on call,
41:40do you think, if you wanted to...
41:41Yes.
41:41So all members of the royal family have got people who cook for them.
41:44The king has got 22 members of chefs, 22 chefs,
41:49and most of whom follow him around from Windsor to Clarence House
41:55to Bourke Hall to Sandringham.
41:57So he'll have his handpicked team.
42:00Yeah.
42:00His brigade.
42:00His brigade.
42:02And some of them stay permanently.
42:05I mean, Buckingham Palace is still effectively closed for business
42:08because we're very close to the end of this 10-year refurbishment of BP.
42:12So some of them have sort of stayed at Windsor
42:15because that's where the state banquets are.
42:16That's where Charles spends quite a lot of his time.
42:18That's where entertainment is, entertaining is.
42:20That's where a lot of investitures are now in Windsor.
42:23And those members of staff who stay will do cooking for William and Catherine, for instance.
42:30Harry and Meghan used to get food sent down from the Windsor Castle kitchens on the little golf buggies.
42:36Oh, really?
42:36Yes.
42:37But if you had a foodie royal and you had a sort of favourite chef, you'd want that chef to
42:43kind of go around with you, wouldn't you?
42:44You would.
42:44It might be a tough job for the chef to keep up with the customer.
42:47It is.
42:48But I think what used to happen, I mean, I know one of the Queen's, late Queen's chefs, I think
42:55he lives in America now,
42:56but he's talked a lot about every week he would create a list of menus for the whole week,
43:03taking into account, you know, whether it's a state dinner or whether they were going out or whatever,
43:07a list of meals for the whole week.
43:09And then she would sign it off.
43:11And the king does the same.
43:13He has a list of what he's going to be eating for the whole week.
43:16And he says, yes, no, can I have this instead, et cetera, et cetera.
43:19And with William and Catherine, they actually, she likes to cook, as I said,
43:24and also she likes to bake with the children.
43:26And I think she wants to make sure that the children can all three of them can cook.
43:30It's that fine line, isn't it, between bringing up your children as normal human beings
43:36and also not wanting them to become sort of too entitled.
43:40I just want to like my own chef, actually.
43:43That would be amazing.
43:43The Goring Hotel in London together, they have on the menu egg strung kimbo,
43:47which was the Queen Mother's favourite thing.
43:50And it happened because she stayed an extra day somewhere
43:52and there was nothing in the kitchen.
43:53The chef made up this dish.
43:55And it was a triumph.
43:56I've had it.
43:57It's absolutely delicious.
43:58I spent my wedding night at the Goring.
44:01Did you have egg strung kimbo?
44:02And I had egg strung kimbo the next day.
44:04Delicious, don't you think?
44:05Yummy.
44:05So good.
44:06That's all we've got time for today.
44:08So that's it, I'm afraid, from the show that never complains but always explains.
44:14And if you've got any questions, please do email in to royals at spirit-studios.com.
44:22And don't forget, we're out every Thursday on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.
44:27We're on five on Saturdays.
44:29And you can find us on Facebook and Instagram, Catching Up With The Royals.
44:33Please do comment.
44:34Richard and I read every one.
44:37That's all for this week.
44:38Goodbye.
44:38Bye.
44:39Bye.
44:40Bye.
44:42Bye.
44:48Bye.
44:53You
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