00:00Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
00:07My guest today on 12 Minutes Web
00:09is Antonio Campinos,
00:11the president of the European Patent Office,
00:14an international organization
00:16with its headquarters in Munich,
00:18which examines as many as 200,000
00:21European patent applications each year.
00:24President, welcome to the program.
00:25Thank you, thank you for having me.
00:26So let's start with this perennial question
00:29of Europe's competitiveness problem.
00:32We're seeing a major political push here
00:34in Europe to solve this.
00:35We're hearing that the economy
00:37is lagging behind competitors,
00:38that we really need to do something
00:40about this urgently.
00:42When does your institution,
00:43the European Patent Office,
00:44come in into all of this?
00:46Well, before I tell you
00:48or try to explain where we come in,
00:49let me tell you that the diagnostic is known,
00:53it's publicly known.
00:54I mean, we need to complete the internal market.
00:56this corresponds to a non-costal barrier
01:00of around 40 to 60% for our goods,
01:02100 to 110% for our services.
01:05This has been estimated of a non-generation
01:08of GDP of around 600 to 700 billion euros,
01:12which is basically what we need
01:14to complete the internal market.
01:16and it is clear that we need really
01:21to remove as many bureaucratic barriers
01:24that we can in order to free
01:26a little bit of space for microentities,
01:28for research centers, for universities
01:29to bring as many ideas from the lab to the market.
01:34So it's critically what we need to do,
01:37in particular when you think about
01:39the trade volumes within Europe
01:42and between Europe and the rest of the world,
01:44we see that 60% of the trade volumes
01:47are between our member states
01:48and 40% of our member states
01:51and the rest of the world.
01:52So in a way,
01:53we need to look at our competition rules
01:56and not say that we need to deregulate them,
01:58but it is clear that this rule
02:00will be designed for within the internal market
02:02and not for Europe competing in the global market.
02:04So we need to have a look into it
02:07because in the past 50 years,
02:09we didn't generate a 100 billion worth company
02:11or a trillion worth company,
02:14which is basically the value
02:15of many US companies or Chinese companies.
02:22Yet Europe is known as a powerhouse for research,
02:25for innovation,
02:26but you've just described there
02:28the big economic costs
02:29of not completing the internal market
02:31and the fact that we don't have
02:32a European GAFAM, let's say.
02:34And why is that?
02:35What are the barriers?
02:36It's all about scale.
02:38So we started about simplifying the rules,
02:41refocusing the rules,
02:43striking the right balance
02:44between international trade
02:45and trade within Europe.
02:47We don't have enough scale
02:48because we are fragmented.
02:50We are in some areas.
02:52We really act as an internal market,
02:55but in other areas,
02:56we still operate like 27 national markets.
03:00We have more than 30 stock exchanges in Europe.
03:04The value of all these stock exchanges together
03:07is 45% of our GDP.
03:10The value of NASDAQ, of Dojon, of S&P 500
03:14is 150% of the American GDP.
03:19So that explains why two-thirds of our investment in ARD,
03:23which are around 2.2% of our GDP,
03:26come from the public sector.
03:27And rather, when you look at the Americans,
03:30the majority of the ARD investment
03:32comes from the private sector.
03:34So we have a problem of scale
03:36and of attracting sufficient funds
03:38in order to bring this idea from the lab
03:41to the market.
03:42And that's all the work that the Commission is doing
03:44looking at the period of time,
03:462028, 2036,
03:48which is 3 trillion financial envelope
03:51in order to allow our startups
03:53to get the funding they need
03:55and to be able to operate
03:58in a more seamless manner
04:01in the internal market.
04:02Do you think that the EU institutions,
04:04including the Commission here in Brussels,
04:05understands the enormity of the challenge?
04:08Are they focused on the right priorities?
04:09No, they are.
04:10I think that it's fair to say
04:13that in the past few months,
04:15I mean, both the European Council,
04:17the Council of Ministers,
04:18the European Parliament
04:18and the European Commission
04:19are on the right track.
04:21They're on the right track.
04:22And the free trade agreements
04:24are good agreements for us.
04:26They might be a little bit painful
04:28in certain areas.
04:29We saw the demonstrations,
04:32the strikes of agricultural agricultors
04:34in France.
04:35But the free trade agreements,
04:36what they do is they expand
04:37our internal markets.
04:38And as we have to compete
04:41with China and with the US,
04:43having access to the Canadian market,
04:46having access to the Mercosur market,
04:48having access to the Indian market
04:50and more recently to the Australian market
04:51is a good thing for us overall.
04:53We're hearing as well
04:54that when it comes to the big sectors
04:57of the future,
04:58clean tech, AI, quantum,
05:01that Europe is lagging behind,
05:03that China and the US
05:04are really accelerating.
05:05you obviously have access
05:07to a wealth of data
05:08as the European Patent Office
05:09and to where innovation
05:10is actually happening right now.
05:12Is the outlook as gloomy
05:13as we're being told it is?
05:15I don't think so.
05:16But I think that we really need
05:18to learn the lessons from the past.
05:19and it's clear that when you look
05:21at the research center,
05:22the major research center in the world,
05:24many are situated in Europe.
05:26Oxford, Cambridge, and SIC,
05:27just to name the two first
05:28that come to my mind.
05:29In terms of fundamental research,
05:32if we are not the best,
05:33we are among the best.
05:35And when you look at the patent data,
05:37you will see that
05:38when we are developing a technology
05:41at the fundamental research level,
05:42we have 50% of overall European patents.
05:47But when we come close to the market,
05:50which means when you have to embody
05:51this technology in products
05:53or in services,
05:55that's where you see
05:55that the Chinese or the Asian companies
05:57and the US companies,
05:59they come very strong at us.
06:00So we need to improve that.
06:02And that's exactly
06:03when you move this idea
06:05from the lab to the market.
06:06What are the consequences
06:07for the European economy
06:08of not doing that,
06:10of not achieving that?
06:11We lose a race
06:13which is called the standards,
06:14which is these patents
06:16who are very close to the market,
06:19they will be those
06:20who will set the standards.
06:22And they will be called
06:24the essential patents,
06:25so the most valuable patents.
06:27So we will lose that race.
06:29We will not be setting the standards
06:31as we've been setting standards
06:33in the past.
06:34We're also hearing a lot of concern
06:35about this kind of flight
06:36of manufacturing power
06:38to other parts of the world.
06:40I'm thinking especially of China,
06:42especially when it comes
06:42to those key sectors
06:43of the future.
06:45How much of a concern is that?
06:46Well, it's kind of a concern,
06:48you know,
06:49because, I mean,
06:50when you look,
06:51for instance,
06:52when you look at
06:54what powers all this technology,
06:57immediately comes to your mind
06:58these rare materials
07:00or this rare earth,
07:04because basically all those
07:05who finish inium,
07:07gallium, germanium, lithium,
07:09you name them.
07:10And they are absolutely fundamental
07:11to produce what is called
07:13a permanent magnet.
07:14The permanent magnet
07:15functions without electricity,
07:18basically.
07:18And these permanent magnets,
07:20they use all kinds
07:21of high-tech technologies.
07:23So,
07:24if we were to create
07:25a supply chain
07:26from zero
07:28to the level
07:29the Chinese are,
07:30where they produce,
07:32they manufacture 90%
07:33of the rare minerals,
07:36and they have,
07:38their mines represent
07:4060% of the overall volumes,
07:42it will take us easily
07:4310, 15 years.
07:45And that's why I think,
07:47for instance,
07:48that another technology,
07:49which we have been talking
07:51in Europe,
07:52but not as much
07:53as we've been talking
07:54about AI
07:54or the quantum technologies,
07:56but it's the recycling,
07:58the materials recycling technologies,
08:00so that we build
08:01circular economies
08:03around specific technical fields,
08:05it's fundamental
08:05for our autonomy,
08:07for our sovereignty.
08:08Yes.
08:08We are seeing, though,
08:10a push to deregulate,
08:13kind of a stripping back
08:14on some of the,
08:15maybe,
08:15the ambitions here
08:16in the European Union.
08:18Do you think that
08:19it's creating uncertainty,
08:21this kind of push
08:22to deregulate
08:22and pull back on regulation?
08:24No,
08:24I don't think so,
08:25because, you know,
08:26the AI Act,
08:28the Quantum Act,
08:29I mean,
08:30the act that relates
08:30to a technology
08:31that you can define
08:33vertically,
08:35they are good regulations,
08:38and we need to keep them,
08:39and we need to develop them.
08:40What I'm talking is about,
08:41you know,
08:42whatever implies a tax fee,
08:45whatever implies bureaucracy,
08:47whatever implies registration,
08:48whatever implies licenses,
08:50whatever implies intermediaries
08:51that take a part
08:52of your time,
08:54that take a part
08:54of your money,
08:55and today,
08:56in the digital world,
08:57where we are,
08:59powered by AI
09:00and tomorrow by Quantum,
09:01all these intermediaries,
09:03they're not needed,
09:04all these filling taxes
09:05and registries,
09:07they're not needed anymore.
09:08to close,
09:09I want to maybe
09:10take a step back
09:11and look globally,
09:12because there is a sense
09:15that we're seeing
09:15a big shift in power,
09:17maybe,
09:18where who's driving
09:19the global economy,
09:20we're seeing very,
09:22a lot of instability as well,
09:24a lot of volatility,
09:25particularly due
09:25is a geopolitical context.
09:28Where does this leave Europe,
09:29do you think?
09:30I mean,
09:31when you look
09:31at the 10 big sector,
09:34technological sectors,
09:35or you look
09:36at the 10 first big companies
09:39that file the more patents
09:41in these different areas,
09:42you will find
09:42four European
09:43amongst the 10.
09:44We're not bad.
09:45but we need
09:46to grow more
09:47of these companies.
09:48We need to grow
09:49more start-ups companies
09:51and become
09:51these first billion
09:53market value,
09:54the 10 billion market value,
09:56100 billion,
09:56the ectocorn,
09:57and then the 1 trillion.
09:58That's where
09:58we need to focus.
09:59Because there are
10:00major US companies
10:02that seem to be
10:03accelerating,
10:03accelerating,
10:04and making it
10:05very difficult
10:05to catch up as well.
10:07Some US multinationals
10:09that are investing
10:10more in innovations
10:12than certain economies.
10:14Yeah,
10:14I think that there's
10:15technological battles
10:16where we can bring
10:17some more incremental
10:19improvements,
10:20because we lost
10:21more or less
10:22the race,
10:22the race to the cloud,
10:24the race to AI,
10:26but we can still,
10:27we still have
10:28very excellent start-ups
10:30operating in these fields.
10:31But the next big revolution
10:34I see is the quantum technology,
10:35and we're still
10:36in the phase
10:37between fundamental research
10:39and development research,
10:41but we're coming
10:42relatively close
10:42to the market.
10:43and typically,
10:44that's where Europe
10:45loses the battle
10:47of competitiveness,
10:48of innovation.
10:49So that's where
10:49we need to focus.
10:51And to focus there,
10:52we really need to
10:53defragment the internal market.
10:55We might need to discuss,
10:57I mean,
10:57the creation of
10:58the stock market
10:59for the EU,
11:00and not these more
11:01than 30
11:03national stock markets,
11:05and to scale up
11:06these startups
11:06to become global players.
11:08Okay,
11:09finally,
11:09just to close,
11:10we've had two major reports
11:12in about two years ago
11:14from Letta and Draghi,
11:15both previously
11:17Italian prime ministers.
11:18Yes.
11:19Mario Draghi
11:19didn't warn
11:20that if Europe
11:20doesn't do anything urgently,
11:22it could face
11:23a slow agony.
11:25Is that still
11:26a fear,
11:26a possibility?
11:27I mean,
11:27at the macro level,
11:29macroeconomic level,
11:30we are among
11:32the most costly
11:33social models
11:34and the most beautiful ones.
11:36I see myself
11:37in the European social model.
11:38But this social model,
11:40this pension system
11:41that we have,
11:42social security systems
11:43that we have,
11:44unemployment,
11:45it needs to be financed.
11:46And in order to be financed,
11:48we have no other alternative
11:49to increase our productivity
11:50and to be more competitive.
11:52Great.
11:52Antonio Campinas,
11:53thank you so much
11:53for joining us.
11:54Thank you so much
11:54for having invited me.
11:57Thank you so much.
Commentaires