- 6 weeks ago
Gabriel Weinberg knows a thing or two about taking big risks on big ideas. He’s the founder and CEO of DuckDuckGo, the privacy-first search engine taking on the giants. In this episode, he breaks down the frameworks that help him lead, how he makes tough calls, and where he finds the time to actually do all of it. Plus, he gives us his take on the real risks around AI and privacy.
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00:00There's a lot of, uh, cliche stains. I don't remember who to attribute it to, but like,
00:04you know, 90% is showing up, that kind of thing. I very much agree with that. There's
00:08so many debates over the years of like, Oh, I just need an idea to get started. And the
00:12idea is really not the thing that's holding people back. It's really the execution.
00:20Hey everyone. I'm Dan Bova, writer and editor at entrepreneur.com and welcome to
00:25how success happens. Hey, uh, can you keep a secret? Uh, because today's guest sure
00:31can, uh, Gabriel Weinberg is the founder and CEO of DuckDuckGo, the search engine that
00:37doesn't track searches and puts a premium on your privacy. So let's see if we can get some
00:43of the secrets of his secretive success. Welcome Gabriel. Hi. Nice intro. Happy to be here.
00:52Great to talk to you. Um, you know, I, I think a lot of us privacy and our data is
00:59it's such a,
01:00such a thing that's in out in the world. We all say we value our privacy, but then, you know,
01:08we all give it up to play with some dumb AI video app or something like that. Like what's wrong
01:13with
01:13us? Why do we think we value our privacy and data? And then we don't. Yeah. Well, it's, I think
01:19a
01:19misnomer is it's all or nothing, you know, it's, it's not, I think some people think, Hey, if they
01:23do this thing, they should just do anything, you know, and, and that's, that's, that's really not
01:29true. Um, I think as you go through the digital world and life, you have choices, you know, and, um,
01:39what we try to do is make a no brainer choice for you, which is for the services that we
01:45offer,
01:45which is like search engine, as you mentioned, we also browser and we have AI now too, or private
01:50chat bot. We're trying to offer those services with no sacrifice. Um, so you can, you know,
01:57search and just not be tracked. Um, that means that, you know, there isn't this trade-off. So I
02:04think the answer to your question is there are trade-offs. Like if you, if there's a new service
02:08and you want to use it and it's the only one out there, you don't really have a choice, right?
02:12Uh, right. If you have a search engine and you could choose to do one that doesn't have ads that
02:18follow you around and one that does, you want to choose the one that protects you a little bit
02:23more. Um, okay. Yeah. Well, that's great. And I wonder if, uh, for people like me, if you could
02:30dumb it down even further, cause like data starts to become like this word that like, what does that
02:35I think I know what it means, but can you explain like, okay, if I do a search on duck,
02:41duck, go
02:42versus I did it on, uh, Chrome or Google, like what, what, what, what different is going to happen
02:49in my life? Yeah. Well, I mean, the most concrete difference is all those ads that follow you around
02:57that people think are creepy and their phone is listening to them, even when it's not necessarily
03:02listening to them. That's because of advertising networks. And a lot of that comes back to your
03:08searches. Google runs the biggest advertising network. So Google just doesn't just run the
03:12search engine. They run ads across the whole internet. Um, and you know, when you do a search,
03:20it gets part of your profile of you in Google. And then that is used. Advertisers can use that to
03:27target ads at you on YouTube and, you know, on all sorts of third party sites, you know,
03:33the news and shopping sites that are semi powered by Google ads. Um, so I think that's the most
03:39concrete thing. Um, but then there are a lot of other little things that people don't think about,
03:44like your searches can be subpoenaed, you know, uh, which is a much more common. And sometimes that
03:51traps, you know, innocent people. Um, and, you know, once you know that you're kind of surveilled,
03:58uh, like this, people don't search as, as kind of openly as they, they think that they want to,
04:06you know? And so when you're on DuckDuckGo, you're kind of freer to kind of do what you want.
04:11Another one that people don't think about is, um, yeah, on Google, your past searches influence
04:17your current searches, your search results. So it's subtly kind of biased to trap you in a filter
04:23bubble is what they call it, a bubble of your kind of political views. Um, whereas in DuckDuckGo,
04:29that doesn't exist. You know, we don't have a search history, so you're getting more kind of
04:32unbiased results. But I think the thing that people notice the most and the quickest is ads not,
04:38you know, creepy ads not targeting them. Yeah. Yeah. I think we're, we're all, all in favor of that
04:43for sure. So can you talk to me about how you went about developing this? Like, was there a day
04:52or a moment where you were just like, I hate this. I want to change it. Um, this has been
04:59a long time
04:59in the making. So, you know, I've been over 15 years working on, um, DuckDuckGo and it actually
05:07started, um, you know, not as privacy focused initially. It was me just wanting better search
05:13results in Google in the mid two thousands, like being dissatisfied with my own search results and
05:18wanting to make them better. And that's how I originally got into it. Um, and then once I got
05:23into doing it, um, I just thought more and more, what is the best search experience for the user?
05:31Like I, I want that as myself. So I'm going to build that. It was just me for the first,
05:35you know, four years or so. Um, and one of those things was, yeah, I want, I want my search
05:41to
05:42protect me and look out for me. You know, I don't want it targeting ads based on my search
05:47history. And so we kind of added that and, um, it took off from there.
05:53Uh, that's amazing. So I'm curious, well, there's a lot of things I love about what you just said,
06:00which is such an entrepreneurial thing is that something was bothering you. Uh, you didn't
06:05necessarily have a light bulb of, Oh, I'm going to build a business. You just wanted to fix this
06:09problem in your life. That's right. Uh, which I think is great because if it's bothering you,
06:15it's probably bothering millions and millions of other people. So, uh, that's such a great
06:20jumping off point. And I'm also curious, you know, growing up when you were a kid, were you always
06:27like, uh, a computer kid? Like what did you want to be when you grew up? Yeah, I was, I
06:33was a computer
06:36now. And so when I was a teenager, the internet was just kind of getting started. And so I, um,
06:45connected to the internet even before the worldwide web existed. It's really dating.
06:50Really? Yeah. I was really early on. I was doing BBSs and, um, kind of, they had other internet
06:56protocols. One was called like gopher pre-web. Um, and so, yeah, I was always a computer kid. Um,
07:03but I didn't, I didn't think it was going to be my career or anything. So I actually went to
07:09school
07:09and was a physics undergrad. I was thinking of going into, um, academia or kind of being a scientist.
07:17Um, but then I graduated right in the.com bubble, um, and got sucked into the, the frenzy of it
07:27all
07:27in Boston. And, um, you know, started a company, ended up starting a company right out of school.
07:32Um, and then I kind of just went from there. Um, so the, the, the school you're referencing
07:38is MIT, correct? Yes. Yes. You are obviously a pretty smart guy, a very smart guy, I'm going to
07:46say. Uh, and I'm sure you went to school with a lot of smart people, but, uh, you know, I
07:54always
07:54think about it's not just being able to be smart, but, you know, identifying a problem, but also then
08:02being able to do it to, to take this, this grand idea in your head and like put it into
08:10practice and
08:10make it a reality. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that. I know you've written
08:15extensively. You've written multiple books about this concept of mental modeling. Can you get into
08:21that? Tell people what it is and how you've used it? Yeah. Yeah, totally. Um, yeah. I mean,
08:28so to your original premise there, a hundred percent agree with you. It's like, there's a lot
08:33of, uh, cliche stains. I don't remember who to attribute it to, but like, you know, 90% is showing
08:39up, that kind of thing. Um, and, uh, I, I very much agree with that. There's so many debates over
08:47the years of like, Oh, I just need an idea to get started. And the idea is really not the,
08:52the thing that's holding people back. It's really the execution, um, and just waking up every day and,
08:58and trying to move it forward. Um, but answer your question about the books. Yeah. So in the last 15
09:04years, um, the reason I wrote those books is because I was running into a wall myself and wanted
09:11to really understand how to, you know, be better at entrepreneurship and a job. So the first, um,
09:19book was on marketing and it was called traction. And it was something I realized, especially coming
09:25from a technical background, a technical founder is like the, or even a product kind of person,
09:31you know, the inclination is just to build and focus on the product and almost have it like a,
09:37if you build it, they will come mentality. But the reality is, is marketing and distribution is
09:42equally as important. And in starting out, you really should be spending half your time thinking
09:49about the distribution strategy. But I came in not really understanding how to do that. And that's
09:55why I explored and wrote that book is to teach myself how to do that. Um, and so it's all
09:59about like,
10:00what are the marketing channels you can really use and how to approach figuring out which ones
10:04you should be focused on in distributing your products. So you build it. So many companies
10:10die with actually good products that, cause they just don't know how to get them in the hands of
10:16customers. Um, and so that's solving that one. And the second one was as the company started to grow,
10:22um, you know, more and more of the job of the entrepreneur, the CEO was just decision-making,
10:27you know, it's no longer like you're the one grinding it out. It's you're helping come up with the
10:33strategy and organization and the decisions on a day-to-day basis to push everyone in the right
10:39direction. Um, and I, you know, came across this concept, you know, 20 years earlier called mental
10:46models, which are really just frameworks that people use in fields that, you know, people study
10:52in college or other things like in physics, there's the concept of critical mass, which is, you know,
10:58you need sometimes a certain amount of say customers to get something to really take off.
11:03Um, and there are literally like a couple hundred of these like concepts from different fields and
11:09most people don't know them. Um, but if you, if you know them, they're kind of shortcuts to like
11:14thinking about good decision-making and problem solving, instead of doing everything from scratch,
11:19you can be like, Oh no, that's a critical mass problem. I can spot that and, and start to have
11:24the language around it to make good decisions faster. And so that's what that's really about.
11:30So that's, um, sorry, I'm going to hold, there's a helicopter flying over me.
11:37It's just gonna, I think we're, I think they're listening to us, Gabriel. I think, uh, Google sent
11:42their help now. Um, so that book, that, that book you're referring to, that's super thinking, correct?
11:48Super thinking. Yeah. And both in both books, because I was working, I have great coauthors. So that
11:53one, I actually coauthored with my wife, um, uh, Lauren, who herself is a statistician and
11:59well-versed in all sorts of mental models. And then the first book I coauthored with another
12:04entrepreneur, um, Justin Maris. So when, if people listening to this have an idea, um,
12:13you've written books about this, so we're not going to distill this down into three sentences,
12:18but I wonder, are there any key questions you think that someone should ask themselves to
12:25point themselves in a good direction to not only get this thing to be a reality, but as
12:30you said before, you know, have it be something that people know exists?
12:35Yeah, I think so. So on the kind of mental model side, I think people have to be really wary
12:44of narratives, you know, so it's really easy to make a narrative about really anything about like
12:51why you think this is successful, why you think this is going to work. And the way to, um, combat
12:58that almost wishful thinking is to try to put some numbers to things. It's kind of the data-driven
13:03side of it. And a lot of the mental models end up involving how to think about data in different
13:07ways.
13:08Um, and so it's really about, I think, taking a hard look at what your plan is and kind of,
13:14is it going to work? Um, and try to like, you know, I ended up sitting in Excel, like actually
13:21learn how to use Excel and make some models about what the business plan looks like and things like
13:26that. Um, it relates directly to the traction and the distribution as well, because the advice on that
13:32book is basically to apply the scientific method to, um, marketing. And that starts with having a goal.
13:40Like if you think of the scientific method as having an experiment and you have a hypothesis, well,
13:46the corollary is having a goal. Say that goal is having the first hundred customers, or maybe a little
13:52farther along and your goal is to get to profitability. Um, that then is a numeric goal. And then you
13:58can
13:58start to think about each of your channel marketing strategies of, is this going to achieve that goal?
14:04Cause I see a lot of people in this part of the reason of the book is to again, have
14:08a narrative and
14:09be like, well, I'm going to go to conferences and I'm just going to tell everybody about my product. And
14:13that
14:13may work in certain situations, but it may be the case that the max that can ever get you is
14:1910 customers
14:20or something, and you need a hundred. So that's not going to work. Right, right. Um, and so it's kind
14:25of
14:26pulling away from narratives and putting it into something a little more concrete that you can call
14:32more of like a real kind of business plan, if you will. Yeah, no, I love that. That's, that is
14:37such
14:37great advice. Uh, even from the content side of things, there's a lot of like, oh, this would be
14:43cool, but it's like, well, we've done that story 10 times and no one ever clicks on it. Why is
14:48it
14:48going to be the difference? Exactly. Yeah. And how many views is it going to get? Yeah, exactly.
14:52Right, right, right. Um, so I, I often ask people on this show, uh, for their personal definition of
15:00success. So I am curious to hear yours and then I want to follow up with something that you just
15:05wrote about on Substack about progress, but let's, let's start with, with success. What does that word
15:10mean to you? It means to me, um, a unique positive impact is kind of how I've been defining it
15:17for
15:17myself. So, um, definitely always been focused on kind of making an impact on the world, a dent on
15:25the world, so to speak. Um, and then the adjectives on that is I would like it to be positive.
15:31I think
15:31a lot of people would like that, but, you know, try to actually orient yourself towards a positive
15:36impact. Um, and then unique is also important to me personally. It's like, I don't like feeling like
15:41a cog, like if somebody else, if I didn't do this, somebody else was just going to do it. You
15:46know,
15:46I like trying to do something that I feel looking back on, like no one else was going to do
15:52it. Um,
15:53yeah. So that's where I come down with it. I love that. That, that's a, that's a great definition.
15:58Um, so yeah, I wanted to, so, so you write, uh, on Substack, uh, just, just your name, easy to
16:06find.
16:06And, uh, I, I really love this thing you just wrote about progress and the, the enemies of progress
16:13that maybe we don't think about a lot. Can you talk a little bit about that? Cause I found it
16:17fascinating. Yeah, I am kind of, so what happened to me is, you know, I started this company, but I
16:25was
16:25always interested in, like I said before, like science and, and being a scientist, I actually
16:30went back and got a master's degree in technology and public policy. So I've been thinking about
16:35this for a long time and the part of policy that I really am focused on and started the blog
16:41up again
16:41is kind of societal progress. And by that, I mean like increasing our standard of living over time,
16:48um, as kind of the definition, um, which seems like this was the recent, those things you're
16:54referencing as a universally good thing. I think everybody would like higher standard of living,
16:59more money in their pocket. Um, but yet the policies to get that, uh, a large one of which
17:05is investing in basic research and science so we can invent the things to make better jobs in the
17:10future, to make better products, to make us live longer. We don't invest properly. Um, and so I was
17:18presenting it as a paradox and trying to ask the question, why, you know, like why, if everybody wants,
17:24higher standard of living, why aren't we doing the things that will get us there? Um, and came up
17:30with a few reasons and some, and some people also wrote me with some other good ones, but, um, a
17:35couple of the ones that I mentioned there is just the timescale mismatch of the whole thing. So,
17:40you know, progress, like we're talking about takes decades. Like you start researching something now,
17:45it may take 10 years to get to a real prototype for a new scientific discovery, and then another 10
17:52to 20 years to commercialize that thing. Um, whereas our politics is like on a two-year cycle,
17:58you know, it's like, so we need to make it, keep making investments and the people who are making
18:04the investments won't even be there by the time they get, uh, to fruition. So we've got a fundamental
18:09political problem there. It's not a partisan problem. It's just like a structural issue, which
18:14I was citing, you know, like our, some of our adversaries, you know, China doesn't have, you
18:19know, they set like five, 10 year policies that they can just invest into. So that's one. A second
18:25one that's interesting to me because it's changed over the last decades is the last time we invested
18:32a lot was kind of in the 1950s, 60s timeframe. So it's been a long time at this point. Um,
18:38but progress
18:39at that point was thought of by lots of people all the time as a very positive thing. Like, you
18:46know,
18:47we were going to the moon, we were getting washing machines and, you know, vacuum cleaners that we
18:52never had before. And like these devices were helping us. And nowadays, you know, when you think
18:57about tech and progress, people think black mirror and dystopian sci-fi. And it's just like culturally,
19:05we're just like, not at a place to like accept it. So I don't have solutions to these. I wish
19:11I did,
19:11but that's what I'm starting to write about and think about in the blog.
19:16Damn. I was that. So that was my follow-up. So how do we fix it?
19:20No good answer for you, unfortunately. Yeah.
19:24Well, you know, when you talk about timeframes, I just think about also just how,
19:29I don't know, just how impatient we become. Uh, you know, we have this incredible AI technology
19:36now at our fingertips. And I found myself like earlier today, I was just trying to do something,
19:42uh, on an AI platform and it took like three minutes and I was like, Oh, come on. Why is
19:48this
19:48taking forever? I was just like, what is going on? Like, we just get so, uh, accustomed to
19:55something getting easier and then we're instantly annoyed. It's, uh, aggravating. I aggravate.
20:00I think, I think you're right about that. I mean, someone wrote me something similar in response to
20:04the article is that like, um, if everything feels so incremental at some point, like, it's like,
20:10if you look back at like, even our cell phones now, you know, we're on iPhone, I forget what version
20:16we're at, 17 or something. And it's a lot better than it was 10 years ago, but you know, you're
20:23like,
20:23Oh, it's, yeah, I have an iPhone. I know what that is. You know, we, we like are normalized by
20:28the, by the improvements. And so like, yeah, it's like AI, you're like, Oh, it's old hat. It was a
20:35year ago. I got this. And now I'm like, I don't want to wait a minute, you know, for it.
20:40And I think
20:42that's an issue with us. We get normalized with things too, yeah, too quickly, you know, and then we
20:45can't appreciate the progress. I mean, um, I, I grew up at a time where like you read about a
20:52new,
20:53new album and Rolling Stone, and then you went to a store and bought it. And now I'm like,
20:57I've got every song ever recorded in the history of time on my phone. And I'm like, Oh, I can't
21:03find
21:03the one I'm looking for. Like, it's just like, just a complainer, but let's talk a little bit.
21:08So you did this, this dystopian future and AI, uh, because, you know, we can, we obviously think
21:17and use of AI as this tool, but it is hard in the back of your mind and be like,
21:22wow, this thing is
21:23getting so good so fast. Uh, it's, it's hard to not be terrified that we're all about to become,
21:31you know, obsolete. So what are your thoughts on that? Save me from dystopian thinking.
21:37Yeah. I, I don't know how much I can save you, honestly, but I, I, I have, I was, I'll
21:44give you
21:44a few thoughts on it, I guess. So like on the consumer side, you know, AI is also scary from
21:49just a privacy point of view of like, you know, you're giving more and more information than even
21:55you were for search. And if you think about handing over more stuff to these agents, um,
22:01it can be quite scary. And so we have, you know, in the, our role there is to offer alternatives.
22:07And so we have duck.ai as like an alternative for people who are wary or as they should be,
22:14or kind of want to go a little more protected with the, you know, with the chats they have.
22:19So I like, it doesn't store your chats. It, um, uh, it doesn't train on your data, you know,
22:26and you can use chat GPT and Anthropic just privately if you go to duck.ai. So that's one thing.
22:31Um, the other thing though, is, you know, people are very different timelines about this
22:39rollout of AI super intelligence and whether it's going to take over the world and at what
22:44timeframe or not. Um, so it's a little unclear how much time we have before some of these things
22:49start happening, but because these things are possible, I do think it, it, it has to be a role
22:56of government to, um, do some regulation here. So I've been calling on the privacy side loud.
23:03Cause that's where I sit the most that like, we should have some really wholesale bands on some
23:10use of AI for surveillance, mass surveillance type of things like, and, uh, going after, you know,
23:17people like minority report type of things. If you remember that movie, you know, using it in scary
23:22ways for law enforcement and stuff like that. Um, but more broadly, so, so I think there's some kind
23:28of just step in for regulation to ban sort of practices. But in addition to that, there's going
23:33to be a jobs disruption. And we have a history of not doing that well, at least in this country
23:39of
23:39like having, creating a disruption in jobs through some technology or policy, and then not helping
23:45people transition. And I really think we should get ahead of that. I think it's a bipartisan issue.
23:51So like, uh, and I see that in the polling, like I saw a poll the other day that was
23:55like equal numbers
23:57of Democrats and Republicans are concerned about the job impacts of AI. Like that should be a great
24:02opening for, for please a bipartisan solution to, to help support, you know, people who are just
24:09displaced. So I think that's where we should be going with this. Um, because even if like AI does
24:16jobs better, like it's not going to work if it's just all that money goes to a few people and
24:22the
24:22people who get the jobs taken away from them are not compensated in any way. You know, like we need
24:27to, we need to work that into regulation. Uh, have you ever thought about running for president?
24:33Cause, uh, no, I'm going to stay way away from politics, but I do plan on writing and hopefully
24:42give some good policy ideas that somebody else can pick up. Yeah. Staying away from politics and more
24:48evidence that you're a smart guy. Um, you're also an incredibly productive person as we've been
24:55talking, you know, multiple books, uh, duck, duck, duck, all this stuff that you're doing. And I wonder
25:01just, just in, uh, you know, uh, from a productivity, uh, angle, like how do you, how do you get
25:08so much
25:09done? Do it, do you have a certain way that you map out your day? How do you structure your,
25:15your
25:15working life? Yeah. Um, I mean, people aren't going to like this answer, but I'm not really on social
25:21media. I don't, I don't, it's a waste of time. I realize that's like cliche advice, but I've been
25:33able to not spend time on, you know, reels and tick tock and YouTube. Um, so that's getting some
25:39hours back in the day. Um, the, the, another concrete answer though, and we built this into
25:44the company actually is we have something called, um, a one must. And, uh, what that means is
25:51uh, what is the, the one thing that you must do today? We ask all of our team members to
25:58input
25:58that in the morning. Um, and I do it too. And so it's like, um, basically trying to combat
26:05procrastination and figure out, like, think a little critically at the beginning of the day,
26:10like, what is that one thing that'll help progress whatever you're trying to do the most.
26:15And then it's often a hard thing, so you don't generally want to do it, but it's, it's writing it
26:20down, committing to doing it, and then trying to make progress on that thing before like you get
26:25to all the other random stuff that you need to do. That's awesome. I love that. Uh, I'm going to
26:30steal that in my own life. Um, all right. So we're going to get to, uh, the, the part of
26:37the show we
26:37call the speed round. Uh, so I hope you're ready for this. Um, okay, here we go. So tell us
26:43one thing
26:44people might be shocked to see if they could see your search history.
26:50Oh, that's an interesting question. Um, I am right now very into, uh, the U S men's national team
27:00of soccer. And, um, I don't know if they'd be shocked, I guess, but, um, but the, you would
27:08discover that about me that I've been, uh, kind of obsessed with the team.
27:12Is this a new thing for you? Were you always a soccer fan or football fan or whatever you want
27:18to call it? Yeah, I know. I think, I think I, I, like half of our company is European too.
27:23So I,
27:23I code switched back and forth between the terms. Um, yeah, I always played, but I wasn't a huge fan
27:31until recently. Um, I got into our current, our local MLS team, which is Philadelphia union,
27:38but now that the world cup is, you know, happening next year in the U S I, um, I've been
27:44watching the
27:44national team for, you know, well, they, they didn't qualify for the 2018 world cup, which was
27:50bad, but after, uh, since the 22 world cup, I've been following them, but now the world cup's really
27:56happening. I've been getting really into it and listening to podcasts and stuff. Um, cool. Um,
28:02Um, yeah, that wasn't speedy. I'll be speedy, more speedy with it. No, no, no, it's fine. It's fine.
28:07So what's a, what's a habit that you are happy to have and one that you wish you could ditch?
28:13Um, okay. I'm very happy to have a habit of walking with my wife nearly every day. We go for,
28:21uh, about three mile ish walk. Um, and that's good exercise. Good to talk. Just a good,
28:28I'm very happy with that. I am unhappy with, despite not being on social media,
28:33I still cannot get myself to stop going to news sites and looking at the headlines at least once
28:39a day. Um, and I really wish I would stop doing that because I don't necessarily find it very
28:46productive, you know? Yeah. I w I'm going to give you a pass on that. Once a day is fine.
28:51The thing
28:51that always drives me crazy is when I do it, when I'm like waiting online at the supermarket and I'm
28:56like, why do I need to be irritated right now? I will admit that I've done that too. Yeah. Yeah.
29:03But I, I agree. I'm just like, that is not a great habit. I really should try to cut it.
29:08And then finally, I'm, I'm curious for you cause you're such a big thinker. How do you turn off
29:14your brain? Uh, can you, besides soccer, is there anything that can distract you from,
29:20from the big thoughts you have? Yeah. Soccer has been helped there, I would say. But yeah,
29:25I would say that like, I cannot work close to bed. Um, so, or I'll say it really will mess
29:33with my sleep. So there needs to be like at least an hour of disconnect before that. That
29:37is usually accomplished by TV of some kind. So if a soccer game is on, that is great. If
29:43it's not, then it's some kind of like, you know, Netflix show or something like that.
29:47Right. Cool. Uh, anything you watched, uh, recently that you'll recommend?
29:53Yeah. I started watching, uh, black rabbit new show. Oh yeah. Netflix. Yeah. I'm only like
30:00two, one episode. Good. It's very good. But I liked the first episode. And so I plan on continue
30:07watching it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's good. It's, it's, it's rewarding. It takes some turns. Uh,
30:13that's all I'll say about that. Uh, well, great. Well, you're doing important work,
30:18so I'm going to let you go, but, uh, I wanted to thank you again for taking the time out.
30:24And, uh, I also wanted to ask, you know, for people who want to, you know, read what you're
30:29thinking, what's the best way for them to follow you? Thanks. Yeah. I know it's been a great
30:35having me on. Thank you very much. Um, yeah. Gabrielweinberg.com. Easy to, easy to follow.
30:42Excellent. Excellent. And as I mentioned before, I read a couple of your sub stack posts,
30:46which are great. And there's the books. Um, we'll say those titles one more time because
30:52super thinking and traction. So I encourage everyone to pick those up and I am going to
30:57try out, uh, the AI as soon as we get off this call. Um, cause sweet doc.ai. Yeah. Good
31:05domain name for that. Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. Awesome, man. Well, great talking to you. Thanks
31:09so much. Thank you.
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