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00:00:16Good evening everybody. You're all very welcome to the show. Hope you enjoy what happens here
00:00:20over the next hour or so. To find out who our first guest is, let me hand you over to
00:00:25our
00:00:25MC for the evening, the beautiful Fred Cook. Tommy, our next guest is Luke Lachlan.
00:00:38How are you Luke? How are you? Good now. How are you getting on? Great now, thanks for coming on.
00:00:43Good. You smell great. It's the cheap stuff, it'll wear off after a while or so. It's a familiar smell.
00:00:52What is it? Zara Fashionably London. Takes you back maybe, does it?
00:00:59Yeah, I thought it was like maybe Lynx Athlone or something, you know?
00:01:06What do you do and what's your story? My name's Luke Lachlan. I play football for Westmead but
00:01:14I'm currently in recovery from addiction, alcohol, cocaine and gambling. And I've kind of followed
00:01:24or I've documented my journey online the last couple of years and done a couple of podcasts
00:01:29and, you know, been able to, I think, help a few people, you know, live through my experiences.
00:01:39And, yeah, just, I suppose, speaking for people that maybe haven't got a voice and I suppose
00:01:46I didn't really plan on it being like that. But it's just kind of grown and I've just kind of
00:01:53went with it.
00:01:54Where did you grow up? I'm from Mullingar. I'm from Mullingar, just outside Mullingar, a small little place.
00:02:03Colmilestown is the name of the little area I'm from.
00:02:07What's the Irish for that? Oh, I hear you're asking the wrong guy.
00:02:10It'll be on every signpost around the village. It's not even a village, it's a road, genuinely.
00:02:14There's a lake, that's it. It's a road and there's a lake in it?
00:02:18There's a road and a lake and that's it.
00:02:20Yes. So tell us about being a teenager there and...
00:02:28Yeah, I suppose...
00:02:29With the drinking as... How old are you?
00:02:31I'm 30.
00:02:32OK. So it would have been like the 90s, is it?
00:02:37No, maybe around... I'm sober nearly five years.
00:02:42Jesus, OK.
00:02:43Yeah, so every day is a blessing type job, you know, very spiritual way of going about things.
00:02:52But I suppose I never actually met my real dad and my mum remarried.
00:03:03My mum married her partner that she was with at the time when I was about two years of age
00:03:08and they were together for seven years and I have two brothers, Sean and Adam, and they got divorced
00:03:13and now she's with her current husband, 20-something years, and another brother called Josh.
00:03:19But I suppose the only constant in all their relationships in my head was me.
00:03:23And I probably, earlier on, about the thing with my dad is I probably, that fear of rejection, abandonment, trust.
00:03:35And as a teenager, I probably found it very hard to be myself.
00:03:40Because you're always worried about what's going to happen or is this person going to leave me
00:03:45or is this person going to like me and you're so, even at a young age, consumed about the opinions
00:03:50of others.
00:03:52And then, obviously, my release then at a young age was sport.
00:03:55I realised I was getting the kind of attention that I wanted at sport, especially from male attention.
00:04:02So, yeah, I suppose that's kind of where the darkness, say, of my addiction kind of started with those feelings
00:04:09for me, like, you know.
00:04:13Is that real, do you think, that sense of weakness or vulnerability or hurt?
00:04:24Is it real to connect it to the story of your dad, do you reckon?
00:04:32Do you think, are you saying that, is it just easy for me to put on to that?
00:04:37Well, I don't know, because I'm, it's obviously a, we can all kind of feel vulnerable.
00:04:44We do at times, yeah.
00:04:45No, but with that image, you know, of a little boy and his dad is,
00:04:53you were, so you were two, was it?
00:04:55Yeah, maybe even a bit younger, maybe one.
00:04:57Yeah.
00:04:59I don't know, it's a very moving image.
00:05:02It's a very, it's, it's, it feels sad.
00:05:10And it definitely, you know, like, as a 30-year-old man, I can sit here and talk about it,
00:05:15because it does not have any bearing on me now, because I've dealt with it,
00:05:18and done hours and hours, hundreds of hours of therapy, and I've been to treatment,
00:05:25I've been to a treatment centre as well.
00:05:27Well, but like, when I was in my teens, especially, you know, I, I longed for that.
00:05:36I really did, that connection with that, that person, you know, because it'd be different
00:05:42if I, I only found out a little later in my childhood, you know, I kind of found out
00:05:46in passing almost, and then I started to question it more.
00:05:51Where's my dad?
00:05:52Yeah, and why is my name just Luke Lachlan?
00:05:56Whereas my brothers, you know, no, they're my brothers, and they always will be.
00:06:02But I was always just Luke Lachlan.
00:06:05And I suppose, you know, even at a young age, like, so in my own head, you know,
00:06:13and they think about it, like, always thinking about, like, why me?
00:06:18Or, you know, why is this happening to me?
00:06:21Or what did I do?
00:06:23Like, and then, you know, you're not good enough.
00:06:25That's the, that's the feeling is you're not good enough.
00:06:30They're big things for a young fella to interpret, aren't they?
00:06:35And navigate.
00:06:36Yeah.
00:06:37And be minded through or something.
00:06:39And, like, you know, my mum, saint, genuinely, didn't have it easy when we were young.
00:06:48And, you know, even to this day, like, you know, I know she'd done the best she could.
00:06:54And, you know, as my addiction went on, I got older, and I definitely used that to manipulate her.
00:07:01When did it start, the...
00:07:03Drinking?
00:07:04Yeah, yeah.
00:07:06I suppose when I was about 14, you know, the usual, my friends would go to the canal or whatever
00:07:16and get a few cans and a nagging.
00:07:18And I remember the first, like, obviously I wasn't an alcoholic at that point.
00:07:23Like, you know, like I wasn't.
00:07:24But I remember the first time I drank, it just, it did something to me.
00:07:30It gave me a confidence, it made me able to talk to girls.
00:07:34I thought I was hilarious, like, you know.
00:07:37And, you know, the worst thing was I was probably throwing out most of it over my shoulder.
00:07:40Like, I probably...
00:07:40But it was that...
00:07:41It just made me someone else.
00:07:44And to be able to say that now, I probably was...
00:07:47I'm probably aware now that I was very uncomfortable in my own skin at a young age.
00:07:52But my first proper night out on the town, I had a lad's fake ID and went out.
00:07:56That was grand, a few drinks.
00:07:58And I got into the casino and ended up, I think, winning, I think, I think it was like 1800
00:08:03or something on blackjack.
00:08:06And then when I'd be in work then, I'd obviously, I was at home and I'd no bills.
00:08:10So I was, I'd work at this big machine and I'd be, you know, coding or whatever it was.
00:08:16But sure, I'd be on blackjack on my phone, like, 24-7.
00:08:20I was just obsessed.
00:08:21I just couldn't get enough of it because I obviously thought that I could win that money again.
00:08:28And obviously I was way wrong and started to go out a bit more and drink a bit more.
00:08:32And when I went to America, gambling was illegal in New York at the time.
00:08:39So I actually went out there in my head.
00:08:42I thought I was going out to play football.
00:08:43I was basically going out to stop gambling for a while and she just replaced the gambling with alcohol and
00:08:48cocaine.
00:08:49And my behaviour, just a joke, basically, you know, and complete self-destruct.
00:08:55Self-destruct mode and not be able to hold down jobs.
00:08:59And like as many times as, you know, I tried to give it up.
00:09:03It just always got me like little dynolics from ruin.
00:09:06Every time I, every time I do it, I'm ruining my life a little bit more and taking more drugs
00:09:13and borrow money.
00:09:16Was the Coke, did the Coke bring you to places and situations that were a bit more destructive than just
00:09:31the drink would?
00:09:31Yeah, I was one of these people, I could go out, I could go out without Coke, but I'd always
00:09:39end up with it, always.
00:09:40But I could go out and have a few pints and then, sure, it always, you know, start getting drunker
00:09:44and you start thinking,
00:09:45oh, this is a great idea now, you know, this will keep me going.
00:09:48But 100%, like you're not thinking right with it.
00:09:51Like it took me just too far every time.
00:09:53Like I just always ended up, like, you know, in that stint, I wrote off two cars.
00:10:02You know, just every time, like there was just no let up and it always got worse, you know, and
00:10:09I think it was.
00:10:13Like what?
00:10:13Like I want details.
00:10:15So I used to drink drive an awful lot, which, you know, now I've a lot of guilt and shame
00:10:20over.
00:10:20And, you know, I took a lot of people's lives into my own hands, you know, with that.
00:10:27So I wrote off one of the cars on the motorway near Mullingar.
00:10:34And, you know, you'd think you'd learn your lesson there six weeks later.
00:10:38So I went and got another car and wrote another one off worse and ended up in the hospital.
00:10:44Nothing wrong with me.
00:10:45And my mother is a nurse.
00:10:47The next morning I woke up and she was at the end of the bed and all these doctors around
00:10:53me.
00:10:53And she actually stopped the doctors.
00:10:55And she said, never mind this.
00:10:57Me, just, she said, get out.
00:10:59She basically said, get out of this hospital, you know, let that bed for someone that needs it.
00:11:02She was obviously disgusted with my behaviour.
00:11:04Yeah, yeah.
00:11:05There's probably people watching now and it's come into my head as well.
00:11:09I just want to mention it so that we, to figure out how you deal with it.
00:11:15So there are, say, innocent people killed by drunk drivers every year.
00:11:27And thank God nothing happened with you, you know, that you didn't kill anybody else.
00:11:33But how do you, how do you negotiate that thing that happened?
00:11:42That, thank God, nothing else happened.
00:11:44But how do you, how do you deal with it?
00:11:51How do you deal with that?
00:11:52What do you do?
00:11:53When I went to treatment, you know, my mom, she dropped me down.
00:11:57We probably, we hadn't talked properly now in a long time.
00:12:01We had a strained relationship.
00:12:03She said to me the day before, she was like, if you don't go to this treatment centre, she's like,
00:12:07we're done.
00:12:08She was like, I'm after doing this for 10 years and I have three other sons.
00:12:11And it's just getting worse, basically.
00:12:13And I'm just going to have to cut ties.
00:12:14And I said, in passing, I'll go for a month.
00:12:17And she was like, you'll go for as long as it takes.
00:12:23And I...
00:12:24That was something for a mom to say, wasn't it?
00:12:27Oh, it sure had to be done.
00:12:28It was the only thing that kind of rattled me a bit, probably, you know, because I always had her.
00:12:32Always.
00:12:33Regardless of what went on, she'd always have my back.
00:12:36Always.
00:12:36Like, and even if we wouldn't be talking, she'd still somehow help me get out of whatever I was African
00:12:43into.
00:12:44And I'd have disrespected her to the highest point, you know, and landing back to the house without even asking,
00:12:51you know, without even texting.
00:12:53I could be welded.
00:12:54It could be the middle of the day.
00:12:55It could be the middle of the night.
00:12:58But the day before...
00:13:00Just for people not from Westmeath, welded means, like...
00:13:03Oh, yeah.
00:13:05Oh, yeah.
00:13:07Worse.
00:13:09Worse.
00:13:13And, yeah, so she said that to me and she rang the GPA straight away.
00:13:18They had obviously known that I'd struggled a long time because, you know, the last few months, it was over
00:13:23COVID.
00:13:24And Jack Cooney, the Western Manager, had been trying to help me for months.
00:13:30You know, and he was very good to me.
00:13:32He never...
00:13:34Only for him as well, the times, you know, like, even times I'd have went missing for a week or
00:13:37two.
00:13:38Like, he'd always bring me back training.
00:13:40Like, I remember kind of going off on a tangent.
00:13:43It was one of the mornings I never went to train.
00:13:46I'd been up partying.
00:13:47Hadn't really slept in a few days.
00:13:49And he asked me.
00:13:50I was meant to be meeting him for breakfast.
00:13:51I probably hadn't closed my eyes in two or three days.
00:13:54Like, you know, it was probably...
00:13:55And he just brought me for breakfast.
00:13:57I couldn't even make eye contact with him.
00:13:58And he just sat there and chatted.
00:14:01And went on as if nothing was wrong.
00:14:03And just brought me back to the house.
00:14:05And I remember, I think it was about a year later, I was actually...
00:14:08We were back training at Westmead or something.
00:14:10And I just couldn't get that out of my head.
00:14:12How he could just...
00:14:16Just to make me feel a bit better.
00:14:18That's what he'd done, you know.
00:14:21But, yeah, so my ma rang the GPA.
00:14:25They got a place sorted in Coomera at High for me.
00:14:30And just before I went in, actually,
00:14:33something went off my head to write down a few workouts.
00:14:37I've never thought of it.
00:14:38So I just got an A4 sheet.
00:14:40And I wrote about 50 workouts on it.
00:14:41And I put it in the bag.
00:14:42I never thought that that piece of paper had changed my life, basically, you know.
00:14:48And there was a woman in there.
00:14:49And she was a grief counsellor.
00:14:51And she said to me...
00:14:52So she sang the meditation on a Wednesday.
00:14:55She sang Caledonia.
00:14:56And I was there.
00:14:57So you'd be sitting in a room with 100 people
00:14:59trying to meditate for half an hour.
00:15:01You can imagine the...
00:15:03And I'd be like,
00:15:04how am I meant to get this head of mine to even sit still for a second?
00:15:10And she started singing on it.
00:15:11And I was like this...
00:15:13You know, it was like a bag of cats, basically.
00:15:16And straight after that meditation,
00:15:18she came to me and she said,
00:15:20look, I just want to have a chat with you.
00:15:23So I went down to her office or whatever room.
00:15:25And she goes,
00:15:26you're not really getting that now, this place.
00:15:27You're just going through the motions here.
00:15:30And then she said,
00:15:32another thing is I had a son who was killed by a drink driver.
00:15:36And I say a prayer for him,
00:15:38that man that killed my son every day
00:15:40because there's goodness in everyone.
00:15:42And sure, my jaw nearly hit the floor.
00:15:44So I went, I got up and I just went back to the room
00:15:48and I sat in the bed and I just bursted out crying.
00:15:52Probably the first time I'd cried like that in a long time of just,
00:15:56you know, I think it was shame and embarrassment.
00:15:59And, you know, what I...
00:16:00It was probably the first time in a long time I'd talk about other people
00:16:03and what I had put people through
00:16:05because to say when you're in addiction,
00:16:07it's not just you that's affected.
00:16:09It's, I think there's seven other people affected by it.
00:16:12And I took out the sheet of paper
00:16:14and I did one of the workouts in between the two beds
00:16:17and it took me a lot longer than it should have.
00:16:20But I suppose then,
00:16:21I suppose, you know,
00:16:24from that moment,
00:16:26I think that was like,
00:16:28that was the moment that changed my life.
00:16:31What skills did you learn to help you stay clean?
00:16:37I suppose sometimes,
00:16:38like I still like get cravings from time to time
00:16:42and I just try to fast forward five hours.
00:16:46And usually when I think about where I'll be,
00:16:48that usually helps.
00:16:50Lots of different things, I suppose.
00:16:52I just know the life I have now,
00:16:54it's amazing,
00:16:55but it's only for today that I have it.
00:16:58And I just have to win that battle every day.
00:17:01I suppose the most important part,
00:17:03obviously exercise has been massive in my recovery
00:17:06and getting to play for Westmead again,
00:17:07which is huge,
00:17:08like, and something I love.
00:17:09My job as well is great,
00:17:11but actually serving others has helped me
00:17:15trying to do things for other people
00:17:17without looking for anything back.
00:17:21What about your dad?
00:17:24I don't have, I've never met him.
00:17:27I think I know his name.
00:17:29I think I know where he's from.
00:17:31But as I said,
00:17:34my mum was my mum and my dad.
00:17:37And you know that you just have to ask your mum
00:17:39who is it and where is he?
00:17:40Yeah, 100%.
00:17:40And we've had conversations before,
00:17:43but as I said,
00:17:46it's not,
00:17:48where I am now,
00:17:49it's not just me now,
00:17:51her life as well.
00:17:52And I know for a fact
00:17:54that it wasn't easy for her.
00:17:56You know,
00:17:56it's definitely not,
00:17:57it wasn't plain sailing.
00:17:59And I don't really want to go
00:18:01pulling up someone else's life
00:18:03when I'm comfortable,
00:18:05you know.
00:18:08She's happy
00:18:09and I'm happy.
00:18:11Yeah.
00:18:12Are you sure the whole thing
00:18:13just isn't about being from Westmeath?
00:18:15She's,
00:18:16it could be.
00:18:17It definitely could be.
00:18:19You know,
00:18:20people ask me,
00:18:21you know,
00:18:22about when I'm just
00:18:23getting to play for Westmeath.
00:18:25I mean,
00:18:26you're only 30 now,
00:18:26is it?
00:18:27So are you,
00:18:28are you still talking out?
00:18:29Yeah,
00:18:29still there.
00:18:30Yeah,
00:18:30it's great.
00:18:31I was dropped nine times
00:18:35from the Westmeath panel
00:18:36and
00:18:37serious lack of corner forwards
00:18:38has kept me relevant,
00:18:39to be honest,
00:18:40and given me a chance.
00:18:42But yeah,
00:18:42it's,
00:18:43look,
00:18:43playing for Westmeath,
00:18:44you know,
00:18:44it has its ups and downs,
00:18:45let me tell you,
00:18:46big time.
00:18:46But it's still,
00:18:47it's still a high standard.
00:18:49It is a high standard,
00:18:50yeah,
00:18:50definitely.
00:18:51Look,
00:18:51last year,
00:18:53not to be going on
00:18:53with football too much,
00:18:54but we lost,
00:18:54I think like nine games
00:18:55by a point or something,
00:18:56like,
00:18:56you know,
00:18:57and I know winning
00:18:58is a habit or whatever,
00:18:59but
00:19:02things can change quickly,
00:19:03like you see,
00:19:04and we've a good management team
00:19:05there this year now,
00:19:06so hopefully,
00:19:08hopefully there's,
00:19:09hopefully we're on the up.
00:19:11Thanks for coming on the show,
00:19:12Luke.
00:19:12Not at all.
00:19:14Delighted,
00:19:14as I said,
00:19:15something completely different
00:19:16and now the comfort zone,
00:19:17as they say.
00:19:18Thanks for talking to me for that.
00:19:20No,
00:19:20that's all right.
00:19:20Thanks a minute.
00:19:21Good man.
00:19:21All right.
00:19:22Good man.
00:19:36Welcome back to the second half,
00:19:37everybody.
00:19:38Who's next,
00:19:39Freddie?
00:19:40Well,
00:19:41our next guest is
00:19:42Jesse Grimes.
00:19:50Wow.
00:19:51Hello there.
00:19:54Very
00:19:55interested to meet you.
00:19:57Yeah,
00:19:57me too.
00:20:00I'm not sure if your name
00:20:01is familiar to me or not.
00:20:03No,
00:20:04I don't think it is.
00:20:04So what do you do?
00:20:05We don't know each other.
00:20:05I'm a musician
00:20:06and a presenter.
00:20:08I'm the National Concert Hall's
00:20:09Discover Artist in Residence.
00:20:12Means I write and present shows
00:20:15with the National Symphony Orchestra Ireland
00:20:17for young people
00:20:18and anybody
00:20:20to make classical music,
00:20:21orchestral music,
00:20:22fun,
00:20:22vibrant,
00:20:23exciting.
00:20:23I've also had a 30-year relationship
00:20:25with this guy over here as well.
00:20:27So I work in classical music,
00:20:29maybe.
00:20:30It's a bit more complicated than that.
00:20:31What's that like?
00:20:33Working in classical music.
00:20:35For,
00:20:36I would say,
00:20:3720 years.
00:20:38I moved to London in 2009.
00:20:40So I've been in the UK
00:20:42for like 16 years.
00:20:44And even before that,
00:20:46I've been in conservatories
00:20:47for maybe
00:20:47nearly 30 years.
00:20:49What's a conservatory?
00:20:50So like a fancy school
00:20:51where you learn classical music.
00:20:53You learn to make,
00:20:54I learned to make this instrument
00:20:56behave like an extra limb
00:20:58so I could do
00:20:58whatever I want.
00:20:59It's like being an Olympic athlete
00:21:01but with micro muscles.
00:21:02So the commitment to that
00:21:04is colossal?
00:21:06Yeah.
00:21:07There's a lot of perfectionism
00:21:09and a lot of time
00:21:10spent on your own.
00:21:11Does it suit
00:21:12spectrum people?
00:21:14I would put myself
00:21:16on the ADHD spectrum.
00:21:17I think it definitely does.
00:21:19It suits
00:21:22all sorts of weird people.
00:21:24Yeah.
00:21:26But I really had
00:21:27a complicated relationship
00:21:28with it for a really long time.
00:21:29I found the perfectionism
00:21:31and the constant self-criticism
00:21:32because you're playing
00:21:33these masterpieces
00:21:34by dead white men
00:21:35essentially for many years,
00:21:37particularly when I was learning.
00:21:38And I started
00:21:40with a big kind of chip
00:21:40on my shoulder
00:21:41that I couldn't do it
00:21:42or I wasn't good enough
00:21:43that I was accepted
00:21:44into these places.
00:21:45I auditioned for
00:21:46all of the conservatories
00:21:48in the UK
00:21:49thinking I wouldn't get into any
00:21:50and got into all of them.
00:21:51So I got to choose
00:21:52to go to the place
00:21:52with the scholarship
00:21:53and the fancy building.
00:21:55What was the attraction of it?
00:21:57So that happened
00:21:57around what,
00:21:5818 or 19 or something?
00:21:59Yeah.
00:21:59So what happened
00:22:00when you were 7 or 8
00:22:02that you said,
00:22:04that's what I want to do?
00:22:05Are you my therapist?
00:22:07Well, I'm very cheap.
00:22:10Do you know what I mean?
00:22:11Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:22:12Okay, well,
00:22:13I mean, what happened
00:22:13when I was 10,
00:22:14my brother died to suicide.
00:22:16So that felt like,
00:22:18for me,
00:22:19a kind of an earthquake moment
00:22:21in my life
00:22:21and my little 10-year-old brain
00:22:22understood at that point,
00:22:24not through any fault
00:22:25of family or parents,
00:22:26but just the way kids are,
00:22:27that if you be brilliant,
00:22:29then people will love you.
00:22:30He was very clever,
00:22:31very smart,
00:22:31very musical,
00:22:32all these things.
00:22:32And there was a big funeral,
00:22:35a big audience, Tommy.
00:22:36And I saw that big audience
00:22:37at this funeral
00:22:38and I thought,
00:22:38okay, I have to be brilliant.
00:22:40My little 10-year-old did anyway,
00:22:42thought, okay,
00:22:42you just got to do
00:22:44everything really deadly.
00:22:45So I learned trad music,
00:22:46I learned classical,
00:22:47I tried to do really good at school,
00:22:49I was head girl.
00:22:49I did all those things.
00:22:51And there's a very clear line
00:22:52in classical music,
00:22:53particularly of,
00:22:54it's like a conveyor belt,
00:22:55you do all your grades,
00:22:56you go to do a degree,
00:22:58then you do a master's,
00:22:59then you do the competitions,
00:23:00then you blah, blah, blah.
00:23:01And it was only about six years ago,
00:23:03I'm 39 now,
00:23:05where I kind of stepped off
00:23:06the conveyor belt
00:23:06and realised I wasn't happy,
00:23:08perpetually burnt out,
00:23:10exhausted,
00:23:12not creatively fulfilled.
00:23:14So.
00:23:15Well,
00:23:16were there any other kids?
00:23:19Where did you grow up?
00:23:20Dublin.
00:23:20Dublin.
00:23:21Were there any other kids
00:23:22in your circle
00:23:25who were into classical music
00:23:27at that age?
00:23:28No.
00:23:30Well,
00:23:31then I went to the academy,
00:23:32so I started at Cultus
00:23:34and at the academy
00:23:35the same year,
00:23:36around age 10 as well,
00:23:37so lots of big changes.
00:23:38Yeah.
00:23:38So I was in school
00:23:39and there was nobody.
00:23:41No,
00:23:42not in school.
00:23:42I definitely didn't fit in
00:23:44for many reasons
00:23:45in school,
00:23:46but I found these
00:23:47deep friendships
00:23:49with other little music nerds,
00:23:51with my trad pals
00:23:52or with my classical pals.
00:23:53So that's where
00:23:54the connection was,
00:23:55other people that
00:23:56kind of got it,
00:23:57that there's a thing
00:23:59that you don't need words for
00:24:00and you can connect
00:24:01and play for hours
00:24:03and not have to talk about it.
00:24:06You mentioned about
00:24:08not fitting in
00:24:09in loads of different ways.
00:24:11Yeah.
00:24:11What did you mean by that?
00:24:13Well,
00:24:14I think the more I learn
00:24:15to be in my own skin,
00:24:16the more I realise
00:24:17how weird I am,
00:24:18which is fun.
00:24:19And maybe I'm understanding
00:24:21things that
00:24:22didn't quite work
00:24:23in like the mid-2000s
00:24:26in a secondary school
00:24:27in Ireland.
00:24:27And that I was gay.
00:24:29That was,
00:24:30you know,
00:24:30you think how far
00:24:31we've come in Ireland now,
00:24:32but like the word gay
00:24:34was like,
00:24:35it's gay,
00:24:37like meaning shit
00:24:38or bad or crap.
00:24:39Yeah, yeah.
00:24:39I think on learning recently,
00:24:41I've got ADHD,
00:24:42which explains
00:24:44the fizz in my brain
00:24:46a little bit
00:24:46and maybe why
00:24:48things I found hard
00:24:49that other people didn't.
00:24:50So it made me feel
00:24:51like I was a bit weird
00:24:51or a bit stupid.
00:24:52But actually,
00:24:53it's just my brain
00:24:54works in a different way,
00:24:55which is now the superpower
00:24:56that I have
00:24:56to be able to do
00:24:57the work that I do now.
00:24:58Yeah.
00:24:59It took a long time.
00:25:01I kind of was
00:25:01kind of meandering
00:25:02in and out
00:25:02all the way through
00:25:03to university
00:25:04and then was like,
00:25:04oh,
00:25:05you're just queer.
00:25:06So I'm with a trans person now,
00:25:08married to a trans person.
00:25:11And it just,
00:25:12that's just,
00:25:13it's so obvious to me now
00:25:14and I look back
00:25:15at poor little me
00:25:16who's writing in journals
00:25:18about trying to figure it all out.
00:25:19So what's obvious to you?
00:25:22That I'm just not
00:25:23a heterosexual human being.
00:25:25And I lived in a heterosexual world,
00:25:26particularly Dublin
00:25:28at that time.
00:25:29Yeah.
00:25:30And that just,
00:25:30it's so obvious now.
00:25:31It's like,
00:25:32it's almost,
00:25:33not boring,
00:25:34but it's,
00:25:35there's a clarity to like,
00:25:37well,
00:25:37that's clear.
00:25:40And your...
00:25:40spouse.
00:25:42Spouse.
00:25:42Yeah.
00:25:43Are you,
00:25:43are you militant with language?
00:25:45No.
00:25:46I f*** up all the time.
00:25:47But it's about the intention,
00:25:49isn't it?
00:25:49Okay.
00:25:49Your partner
00:25:50or whatever.
00:25:51is a trans...
00:25:55It's non-binary.
00:25:56So I would say trans,
00:25:57oh,
00:25:58I don't have to do the semantics lesson.
00:25:59Like,
00:25:59I would say trans within an umbrella.
00:26:01So Brogan is non-binary.
00:26:02So they use they,
00:26:03them pronouns.
00:26:05Yeah.
00:26:06And I'm just,
00:26:07I'm,
00:26:08I'm very curious.
00:26:10Yeah.
00:26:12Was,
00:26:13had it operation or?
00:26:15No,
00:26:15no,
00:26:15no,
00:26:16no,
00:26:16no,
00:26:16no.
00:26:17Just have changed their name
00:26:18and their pronoun
00:26:19and living more
00:26:20in a,
00:26:20in a mask presenting way.
00:26:23But presenting as,
00:26:24I'm very confused.
00:26:25Well,
00:26:26Brogan's just a...
00:26:27Brogan.
00:26:27Yeah.
00:26:27Brogan is a,
00:26:29they're like,
00:26:29I'm just like a weird little blue alien.
00:26:31They're like,
00:26:31sit right in the middle.
00:26:32They don't feel
00:26:34particularly male
00:26:34that are particularly female.
00:26:35They just feel like Brogan.
00:26:36So if I said,
00:26:37so is it strange
00:26:38if I say to you,
00:26:39well,
00:26:40is Brogan a man or a woman?
00:26:41Is that a,
00:26:42is that a,
00:26:42is that a...
00:26:42Well,
00:26:43if you were my nephews,
00:26:43we'd say both.
00:26:45They'd say,
00:26:46is,
00:26:46is Brogan,
00:26:47is you a boy or a girl?
00:26:48And Brogan will say,
00:26:49kind of a bit of both.
00:26:51Bit of half and half.
00:26:53And it depends what,
00:26:54like if you go to indigenous cultures
00:26:55all over the world,
00:26:56people will be like,
00:26:57got you.
00:26:57Totally.
00:26:58Two spirit.
00:26:58Obvious.
00:26:59But in our,
00:27:00in our culture,
00:27:00to be somewhere other than binary
00:27:02is,
00:27:04it,
00:27:04weird and confusing
00:27:05and also interesting.
00:27:06Yeah.
00:27:07Yeah.
00:27:07That's a good,
00:27:07so it's something that refuses
00:27:10to be pinned down.
00:27:11Yeah.
00:27:12Yeah.
00:27:12So there's no,
00:27:12so it's kind of like,
00:27:14no,
00:27:14you're not getting your handy
00:27:15little definition
00:27:15and you're not,
00:27:17I'm not making it easy for you
00:27:18to imagine somebody
00:27:20who was born a man
00:27:22but now presents as a woman.
00:27:23No,
00:27:24no,
00:27:24this is just,
00:27:24it's much more.
00:27:26It's I am me.
00:27:27A challenge.
00:27:28Wow.
00:27:28Yeah.
00:27:29I asked my nephew once
00:27:30what you want to be
00:27:31when you grow up
00:27:31which is a stupid question
00:27:32to ask a kid
00:27:32and he said,
00:27:33myself.
00:27:35And it's a bit like that
00:27:36with Brogan,
00:27:36it's just Brogan is Brogan.
00:27:38Are you easy to live with?
00:27:41Hmm.
00:27:42I'm getting better.
00:27:44I think I'm,
00:27:46I'm constantly on a quest
00:27:47to be a kinder,
00:27:50nicer human.
00:27:51Are you hypersensitive?
00:27:52Brogan is.
00:27:54I don't think I am.
00:27:55No.
00:27:57Probably in bits.
00:27:58If you tell me I did that wrong,
00:27:59I'd still,
00:28:00that's post-conservatory trauma
00:28:01is still there.
00:28:03Do you get angry?
00:28:04Like what's your,
00:28:08in terms of emotional regulation,
00:28:11where does the ADHD thing,
00:28:14where do you suffer in that?
00:28:18Uh,
00:28:20do I get angry?
00:28:21I don't really get angry.
00:28:23I get overwhelmed.
00:28:24I can get to a point
00:28:25and this is I think
00:28:26why we ended up
00:28:26changing our whole lives.
00:28:28I can get to a point
00:28:28where I can't make
00:28:30any decisions anymore.
00:28:31Like decision fatigue.
00:28:33And that's what,
00:28:34that was one of the reasons
00:28:35Brogan had been chronically ill
00:28:37for a couple of years.
00:28:37We'd had some failed IVF.
00:28:39There was like a,
00:28:39a mountain of things
00:28:41that boiled up to a point
00:28:42where every month or six weeks
00:28:44I was getting burnt out.
00:28:45Which I understood just as,
00:28:46oh, it's burnout
00:28:47because that's what,
00:28:48we're in this grind economy
00:28:49and that's what I was doing.
00:28:51But probably now
00:28:51understanding my brain a bit more
00:28:53it was just overstimulation
00:28:54and needing to
00:28:55find a slower pace.
00:28:57And in terms of the IVF,
00:29:02who is,
00:29:03who was trying to have the baby?
00:29:05This guy.
00:29:06With Brogan's eggs.
00:29:08This guy.
00:29:09Yeah.
00:29:09That's fantastic.
00:29:11That's fantastic.
00:29:11With your partner's eggs.
00:29:14Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:29:14And my magic brother had donated
00:29:16but it all was a disaster
00:29:18and went to shit.
00:29:19Brogan got really unwell.
00:29:23It didn't work.
00:29:24We did two rounds.
00:29:25It was awful.
00:29:25They got,
00:29:26they had chronic chest infections,
00:29:28misdiagnosed asthma.
00:29:30Terrible two years
00:29:31of them being prone
00:29:33on a sofa
00:29:35and us trying to do IVF
00:29:36and get eggs
00:29:37out of their poor broken body.
00:29:39And it just was
00:29:39an awful experience
00:29:41and didn't work well.
00:29:43So we shelved it,
00:29:44went to Costa Rica
00:29:46and Nicaragua
00:29:47for six weeks
00:29:47and realised
00:29:49we needed to do
00:29:50everything a bit differently.
00:29:51So it's still the plan.
00:29:53Not that plan
00:29:54but a sperm donor.
00:29:56Oh, you've got enough kids
00:29:57I wouldn't ask you.
00:29:58It'd be an ADHD nightmare
00:29:59to answer this in.
00:30:00We'd be guaranteeing
00:30:01the child a spectrum life.
00:30:04There are blessings Tommy
00:30:05as you know.
00:30:06I'm in the market
00:30:07I suppose
00:30:07for a donor
00:30:09and we'll try again.
00:30:10We're building
00:30:11our little house now
00:30:12in Suffolk
00:30:12and when that's done
00:30:13we'll try again
00:30:14to fill it with
00:30:16some babies somehow.
00:30:17So the idea
00:30:17of being pregnant
00:30:18and giving birth
00:30:20and all that
00:30:20is what to you?
00:30:22My mother speaks
00:30:23very beautifully
00:30:24and positively
00:30:25about pregnancy
00:30:26and breastfeeding
00:30:27so I think I grew up
00:30:28with that.
00:30:28A lovely
00:30:29even though she had
00:30:30terrible experience
00:30:31she lost a baby
00:30:32before me
00:30:33and you know
00:30:34it wasn't plain sailing
00:30:35but there's a lovely
00:30:37energy around it
00:30:38to me
00:30:38and it's just something
00:30:40I just think
00:30:40we have like
00:30:41a split second
00:30:42on this planet
00:30:43and that I have
00:30:45this capacity
00:30:45to create
00:30:46human life
00:30:47just feels like
00:30:47an incredible thing
00:30:49that I want to try
00:30:50and do.
00:30:50So you're using
00:30:53Brogan's eggs
00:30:54No that's all
00:30:54out the window
00:30:55No but you had been
00:30:56and where was
00:30:58the sperm coming from?
00:30:59My brother
00:31:00had donated
00:31:01do the maths
00:31:02you can do it
00:31:03it's not incest
00:31:03There's sperm
00:31:04Yeah
00:31:06So your brother's sperm
00:31:07It would be like
00:31:07my brother and my partner's
00:31:08baby but I was
00:31:09the oven
00:31:11but it didn't work out of it
00:31:12That has to be
00:31:12an easier way
00:31:13Yeah it's beautiful
00:31:14Yeah it's beautiful
00:31:14because you'd have
00:31:14genetic grandparents
00:31:16What would you have?
00:31:17Genetic grandparents
00:31:18What does that mean?
00:31:18on both sides
00:31:20So the child
00:31:21what I squeezed out
00:31:22Yeah
00:31:23The parents
00:31:24Yeah
00:31:24The grandparents
00:31:26would be
00:31:27Brogan's parents
00:31:28would be the grandparents
00:31:28and my parents
00:31:29would be the grandparents
00:31:29It's like the only magic way
00:31:31that two women
00:31:32could do it
00:31:33Okay wow
00:31:33But it's in the bin anyway
00:31:35and it's a bit complicated
00:31:37Your dad's your uncle
00:31:39Couldn't bring it up
00:31:39in Dublin could I?
00:31:41Well there are probably
00:31:41places where it's
00:31:43not unusual
00:31:44Yeah but it's
00:31:47anyway
00:31:47that plan's in the bin anyway
00:31:49Wow
00:31:49But what a gorgeous human
00:31:51my brother is
00:31:51to have donated
00:31:52at all
00:31:53But we have to go
00:31:54We're thinking like
00:31:56some sort of hippie stone circle
00:31:57in some way
00:31:57some man will just appear
00:31:58and donate
00:32:02I'd say so
00:32:03Move time
00:32:03I'm only 39
00:32:06So tell me about
00:32:07the instrument
00:32:08and
00:32:11Yeah
00:32:13It's a funny
00:32:14complicated relationship
00:32:15now I suppose
00:32:16I've played it
00:32:17for nearly 30 years
00:32:20and
00:32:22I love it
00:32:24and I also
00:32:25have had such
00:32:26it's associated
00:32:28with stress as well
00:32:29and that high
00:32:31performance
00:32:33thing
00:32:35I got to a point
00:32:36before Covid
00:32:37where I was on trial
00:32:39for an orchestra
00:32:39and I
00:32:40got a phone call
00:32:41to do Rhapsody in Blue
00:32:42which would have been
00:32:43the thing that would win
00:32:44the job
00:32:44you'd get
00:32:45you'd get the job
00:32:46and I turned it down
00:32:48instinctively
00:32:48saying oh I'm working
00:32:49with special needs kids
00:32:50in Derby
00:32:50that week
00:32:51sorry
00:32:51and then I had to have
00:32:52a talk to myself
00:32:53and I'm like
00:32:54what did you just do
00:32:55that's the chance
00:32:56to get the job
00:32:56the thing
00:32:57the most coveted thing
00:32:58that any
00:32:58certainly orchestral musician
00:33:00wants
00:33:01and I had instinctively
00:33:02turned it down
00:33:02and then
00:33:03I sat with myself
00:33:04for a while
00:33:04and I was like
00:33:05you don't want a job
00:33:06you want to do
00:33:07other stuff
00:33:08so I'm now more
00:33:09we're friends again
00:33:10I think
00:33:10because I don't do it
00:33:11all the time
00:33:12I do this presenting
00:33:14and this creative stuff
00:33:14so I'm becoming
00:33:16friends with this
00:33:17and I'm gently
00:33:18learning trad
00:33:19I grew up playing
00:33:20for the flute
00:33:20and the whistle
00:33:21and there was
00:33:22such freedom
00:33:23roar in sessions
00:33:25and when I went to London
00:33:26I just didn't have
00:33:26the bravery
00:33:27to join sessions
00:33:28so I didn't play
00:33:29for 15 years
00:33:31but I'm slowly
00:33:32quietly at home
00:33:33trying to knock
00:33:33a few jigs and reels
00:33:34out of this now instead
00:33:35what are you going to play
00:33:36I'm going to play
00:33:38a thing that I
00:33:39because I'm also
00:33:39a workshop leader
00:33:40I'll play
00:33:40like this is a bit
00:33:41of an introduction
00:33:43to me thing
00:33:43so I'll play
00:33:44a bit of Mozart
00:33:44and then a bit of trad
00:33:46would you be comfortable
00:33:48singing a drone
00:33:48for me
00:33:49if I play you
00:33:50you know I can't sing
00:33:51it's a medical
00:33:54I'll fucking try
00:33:55but I really
00:33:55don't give me a note
00:34:08that's there
00:34:11he's got it
00:34:13I'll help you out
00:34:13in the middle of it
00:34:14what do you want me to do
00:34:15do that all the time
00:34:16with my mouth open
00:34:17no I'll tell you what to do
00:34:18don't worry
00:34:18so we're going to
00:34:19this is what I do
00:34:20Tommy this is what I do
00:34:21in a care home
00:34:22Tommy
00:34:23no
00:34:24alright Mr Tiernan
00:34:27do you know why I do this
00:34:29it's because I love playing
00:34:30with other people
00:34:31and I find a solo
00:34:32one line instrument
00:34:33it's a bit sad
00:34:34so I'll ask you to join me
00:34:35and if it's shite
00:34:36we can all laugh at you
00:34:37and not at me
00:34:38anyway
00:34:39what exactly do you want me to do
00:34:40I'm going to tell you
00:34:41in the moment
00:34:41you just chill out
00:34:42it's not possible
00:34:43and you're going to point at me
00:34:46and I'm to do what
00:34:47am I to do that kind of
00:34:48nursing home
00:34:49take a breath in
00:34:51take a breath out
00:34:52I've got you Tommy
00:34:53you've got me okay
00:34:54alright here we go
00:34:55God help us
00:35:37you've got me okay
00:35:42you've got me okay
00:36:12you've got me okay
00:36:44you've got me okay
00:37:17you've got me okay
00:37:28now I'm telling you
00:37:29if you've got the National
00:37:32Concert Orchestra
00:37:34National Symphony Orchestra
00:37:35Ireland
00:37:35National whatever
00:37:36they want to call themselves
00:37:37get them in their own clothes
00:37:40down to the crane bar
00:37:42of a Tuesday night
00:37:44playing stuff like that
00:37:47it would be phenomenal
00:37:49how does participating feel
00:37:52being a little illonpipe drone
00:37:54there for me
00:37:55well I've been told all the time
00:37:57well I've been told all the time
00:37:57that I can't sing
00:37:58I hate when people tell people
00:38:00they can't sing
00:38:01we can all
00:38:02but it's only by people
00:38:03who can hear me
00:38:03so
00:38:06but then there's a connection
00:38:08yeah it's lovely
00:38:09also your vagus nerve
00:38:10when we sing
00:38:11is stimulated
00:38:12so there's like
00:38:13a rest and digest
00:38:14calm feeling
00:38:15I love getting people
00:38:17I love getting people to join
00:38:18because it feels better
00:38:19in your body
00:38:20I think
00:38:20where can people
00:38:24experience your work
00:38:25I suppose
00:38:25both with the workshop stuff
00:38:27and your own playing
00:38:29the National Concert Hall
00:38:31is the main thing
00:38:32I am artist in residence
00:38:33there for Discover
00:38:34there's also going to be
00:38:36an amazing Discover Centre
00:38:37that's been built
00:38:38by the end of 1926
00:38:39a big redevelopment
00:38:40at the Concert Hall
00:38:41but the first thing
00:38:42that's happening
00:38:42is this Discover Centre
00:38:44so we're going to have
00:38:45more and more
00:38:45stuff happening there
00:38:47it's going to be
00:38:47like a massive cultural
00:38:49centre for people to come
00:38:50I do stuff with
00:38:52the National Symphony Orchestra
00:38:53Ireland every couple of months
00:38:56check out the NSOI
00:38:58and I'll be there
00:39:01there's usually
00:39:02a massive poster
00:39:02of my face
00:39:03on the console as well
00:39:04much to my father's
00:39:04embarrassment
00:39:05good enough for him
00:39:07Jessie thank you very much
00:39:08for coming on the show
00:39:09and talking to me
00:39:10lovely to meet you
00:39:11thank you
00:39:26welcome back to the third half
00:39:28everybody
00:39:29Freddie who's next
00:39:31Tommy our next guest is
00:39:33Mark Little
00:39:38now
00:39:38what a pleasure
00:39:40great to meet you
00:39:41great to meet you
00:39:41now
00:39:45how are you
00:39:45now
00:39:47so
00:39:49the last I heard of you
00:39:53was that you had
00:39:55set up
00:39:57was it a news business
00:39:59company
00:40:00or something like that
00:40:01yeah so I have my
00:40:02first parish of RTE
00:40:04here for about
00:40:0516 years
00:40:05and that's a very
00:40:06sexy Barry White
00:40:07voice you have
00:40:09tempered by
00:40:11much
00:40:11yeah
00:40:12what did you do
00:40:13in RTE
00:40:14with news
00:40:14so I was the first
00:40:15Washington correspondent
00:40:16I was a prime time
00:40:18anchor with Miriam
00:40:19O'Callaghan
00:40:19with that voice
00:40:20with his voice
00:40:21and I remember
00:40:22Gabe Byrne actually
00:40:23first time I met
00:40:23Gabe Byrne
00:40:24at Late Late Show
00:40:25he turned to me
00:40:25only words he said to me
00:40:26were
00:40:26do you smoke
00:40:27I did at the time
00:40:28yeah I can hear it
00:40:29so that was my voice
00:40:30great voice
00:40:31well that was what I did
00:40:33with the voice
00:40:34and then I went on
00:40:34to form a company
00:40:35called Storyful
00:40:36back in 2009
00:40:37and that was trying
00:40:38to make sense
00:40:39of all the social
00:40:39media noise
00:40:40verify what people
00:40:41should listen to
00:40:42and pay attention to
00:40:43work for Twitter
00:40:44I had a second
00:40:45startup with my friend
00:40:46Anya Kerr
00:40:47and we sold that
00:40:48to Spotify
00:40:48so I walked the earth
00:40:49as a sort of a startup
00:40:50tech entrepreneur
00:40:52and finished that up
00:40:54last year
00:40:54and now I've been
00:40:55looking an awful lot
00:40:56at trying to listen
00:40:57a lot more
00:40:58and try to work out
00:40:59what's going to happen
00:40:59next
00:41:00because things are
00:41:00happening so fast
00:41:01I think
00:41:02I feel like we're all
00:41:03like Wile E. Coyote
00:41:04we've gone off
00:41:05the edge of a cliff
00:41:05and we don't quite
00:41:07know yet
00:41:07that technology
00:41:08is about to change
00:41:10every aspect of life
00:41:11Could you talk me
00:41:12through the different
00:41:14phases of your work
00:41:15so when you landed
00:41:17here in RTE
00:41:21what did you do
00:41:22and how did you do it
00:41:26So back then
00:41:27this was
00:41:27in the days of Charlie
00:41:29I
00:41:29this was in the days
00:41:30before the
00:41:31Celtic Tiger
00:41:32so that was
00:41:33at the turning point
00:41:34and so I was
00:41:35very much
00:41:36sort of taken
00:41:37by the idea
00:41:37that we were
00:41:38telling stories
00:41:39about an Ireland
00:41:39at that time
00:41:40which was really
00:41:40in flux
00:41:42the idea of being
00:41:42able to tell
00:41:43that story
00:41:44so I would have
00:41:45been lucky enough
00:41:46to report on the
00:41:47ceasefire in Belfast
00:41:49to be on the streets
00:41:50at midnight
00:41:51the night of the
00:41:51ceasefire
00:41:52and to be listening
00:41:53to people who
00:41:53weren't celebrating
00:41:54former Republican
00:41:56prisoners
00:41:57and to be given
00:41:58the privilege
00:41:59of telling that story
00:42:01and as you listen
00:42:02you realise
00:42:03it's a completely
00:42:04different story
00:42:04than the one
00:42:05you expected
00:42:06and then having
00:42:07that obligation
00:42:07then to pass on
00:42:08some piece of
00:42:09information
00:42:09some image
00:42:11that might change
00:42:12someone's mind
00:42:13that was a tremendous
00:42:14sense of
00:42:15if I'm honest
00:42:16and also being
00:42:16egotistical a little bit
00:42:17power
00:42:20and the idea
00:42:22of spending
00:42:23the rest of your life
00:42:25doing that
00:42:26when did that
00:42:27become quite
00:42:28unattractive
00:42:29so I was ending
00:42:30off to a place
00:42:31called Ramadi
00:42:31in 2007
00:42:32and it was to go
00:42:34and visit a combat
00:42:35outpost
00:42:35the marines
00:42:36and it was the most
00:42:37dangerous place
00:42:38on the planet
00:42:39at that time
00:42:39I was travelling
00:42:40on a Thursday
00:42:40I went skiing
00:42:41with my mates
00:42:42the previous weekend
00:42:43and I broke my leg
00:42:44so I was brought back
00:42:46from Italy
00:42:47on the catering
00:42:48side of the plane
00:42:48spent 3-4 weeks
00:42:49feeling very sorry
00:42:50for myself
00:42:51and something
00:42:52happened at that moment
00:42:53I had a sense
00:42:54of my own mortality
00:42:56I had a sense
00:42:57that if I was going
00:42:58to go to this place
00:42:59Iraq
00:43:00that could have been
00:43:00a door through
00:43:01which there was
00:43:01no return
00:43:02I had many friends
00:43:03who were already
00:43:04setting their sights
00:43:05I was very close with
00:43:07I had lost a few
00:43:07people that I knew
00:43:09and I knew
00:43:09that was going to be
00:43:10the door I walked through
00:43:11and with this
00:43:12ski accident here
00:43:14I was on the side
00:43:14of a ski slope
00:43:15in Italy
00:43:16lying up in the blizzard
00:43:17thinking about my death
00:43:19and that was the first
00:43:20time that ever happened
00:43:21I never felt
00:43:21in any way mortal
00:43:22before that moment
00:43:23and that changed
00:43:24everything
00:43:25that just
00:43:25How old were you then?
00:43:27I was 38
00:43:28at that stage
00:43:29I think
00:43:29yeah 38
00:43:31and that drove me
00:43:32to jump into a business
00:43:33where on the first day
00:43:35I had no idea
00:43:36what I was doing
00:43:36I was writing
00:43:37business plans
00:43:38with permanent marker
00:43:39and a whiteboard
00:43:39completely unprepared
00:43:40Can you tell me
00:43:41about the transition
00:43:42and what the idea was
00:43:43and what you did
00:43:44just before you got the idea
00:43:46like how was the whole time like?
00:43:48It was a week
00:43:49I remember
00:43:49there was a protest
00:43:50in Iran
00:43:50the Green Revolution
00:43:51people going against this
00:43:53Ahmadinejad's election
00:43:54and there was
00:43:55Twitter was everywhere
00:43:56the entire thing was told
00:43:57through social media
00:43:58and I was at home in Dublin
00:43:59the following week
00:44:01on a wedding
00:44:02in the west of Ireland
00:44:03and we go over to the bar
00:44:05and all the people
00:44:05under 25 or 30
00:44:06are telling us
00:44:07Michael Jackson just died
00:44:09and we were on dancing
00:44:10on the floor
00:44:11with my ma I remember
00:44:12before he was officially
00:44:14confirmed dead
00:44:15by the Los Angeles Times
00:44:17and I thought to myself
00:44:18wow everybody in the world
00:44:19now can tell a story
00:44:20but who do you listen to
00:44:22to give you the reality
00:44:24and that was the mission statement
00:44:26for Storyful
00:44:27and that kind of began
00:44:28the journey that became
00:44:29that first company
00:44:31and the idea was that
00:44:35it's almost like
00:44:36I get the sense of
00:44:37it's like looking at Twitter
00:44:38and kind of going
00:44:39there needs to be
00:44:41a way of getting good information
00:44:42onto this platform
00:44:43yeah so we would say
00:44:44for example
00:44:45we saw one day
00:44:47two tanks
00:44:47coming down a road
00:44:49outside a place called Aleppo
00:44:51and we saw the tank
00:44:53getting blown up
00:44:53and we also found out
00:44:55that we also had a video
00:44:55on YouTube
00:44:56of the guy who fired the weapon
00:44:58the rocket propelled grenade
00:45:00and so we could piece together
00:45:01the two things
00:45:02by looking at the sunlight
00:45:04on the minaret
00:45:05see what time of day
00:45:06it might be
00:45:06to match the times
00:45:07find a bit more
00:45:08about the YouTube account
00:45:10that had the guy
00:45:11with the RPG
00:45:11and the YouTube account
00:45:13the people on the tank
00:45:14and I'd never seen it like this
00:45:16this was like war
00:45:17from two sides
00:45:19in the very same split screen
00:45:21and here I was
00:45:22realizing that it changed
00:45:24everything
00:45:25about the way
00:45:26that we witnessed the world
00:45:27and it was all being made up
00:45:29at the time
00:45:29from a tiny office
00:45:30by the Liffey
00:45:32we'd be on to people
00:45:33in California
00:45:34telling them the reality
00:45:36as it was unfolding
00:45:37and then before I know it
00:45:39we had every news organization
00:45:41in the world
00:45:42we're using us
00:45:42as their sort of
00:45:43primary verification service
00:45:45to the point where
00:45:46you know
00:45:47you essentially could
00:45:48find the video
00:45:49that defined the story
00:45:51clear it up
00:45:52verify it
00:45:53and then pass it on
00:45:53to people
00:45:54who could put it on air
00:45:55with total confidence
00:45:58can you tell me
00:45:58a bit more about them
00:46:00what happened to Storyful
00:46:01what happened to that organization
00:46:03so we got to a point
00:46:04where as a business
00:46:05we came to the attention
00:46:06of Rupert Murdoch
00:46:07and we were bought
00:46:07by Rupert Murdoch
00:46:08so I went to New York
00:46:09and lived there
00:46:10and worked for Murdoch
00:46:11inside a very strange
00:46:13couple of years
00:46:13which was exactly
00:46:15like Succession
00:46:16was it exciting
00:46:18working for Murdoch
00:46:19it was like being
00:46:20on a rocket ship
00:46:21like it was
00:46:22it really was
00:46:22high potency stuff
00:46:24but it was vicious
00:46:26it was tough
00:46:27I remember sitting
00:46:28in a meeting once
00:46:29in News Corp
00:46:29where a person
00:46:31was walking in the door
00:46:31to conduct the meeting
00:46:32and I was told
00:46:33well she's just been fired
00:46:34she doesn't know it
00:46:35but we all do
00:46:35so there was a certain sense
00:46:37of you're at the height
00:46:37of this sort of
00:46:39macho
00:46:39yeah
00:46:40testosterone
00:46:41yeah
00:46:42kill or be killed
00:46:43type of thing
00:46:43oh yeah
00:46:44but with that
00:46:45I suddenly looked
00:46:46at my next 10 years
00:46:47and went
00:46:47shit
00:46:49I have to keep
00:46:49this pace up
00:46:50and do all of this
00:46:51and keep ahead
00:46:52of everybody else
00:46:52in this competitive environment
00:46:54it was like swimming
00:46:54with sharks
00:46:56so yeah for me
00:46:57the thing to do
00:46:57was to go back
00:46:58and then I went
00:46:59back to Ireland
00:47:00so then tell me
00:47:02so you're working
00:47:03for Murdoch
00:47:04and then what happened
00:47:06so then I basically
00:47:07got contacted by Twitter
00:47:09and they were hiring
00:47:10someone to head
00:47:11of their media department
00:47:11in Europe
00:47:12so the job
00:47:13was in Dublin
00:47:13so it happened
00:47:14at the international
00:47:15headquarters for Twitter
00:47:16is in Dublin
00:47:16so I came back
00:47:18and got a job there
00:47:19but it was a tough time
00:47:21because that was
00:47:21looking back at it now
00:47:22that's the time
00:47:23when Twitter went
00:47:24from being
00:47:25really open
00:47:26collaborative
00:47:27you found your authentic
00:47:28weird community
00:47:29to connect with
00:47:30new people
00:47:31new ideas
00:47:31and the algorithm
00:47:33comes in
00:47:33at about 2015
00:47:35that's about the time
00:47:36that I joined
00:47:37and that's when
00:47:38they start pushing
00:47:39the stuff
00:47:40that they're sitting
00:47:41on your shoulder
00:47:41watching
00:47:42it was a really
00:47:43tough time
00:47:43for Twitter
00:47:44as well
00:47:44the algorithm
00:47:45seemed like
00:47:45a good idea
00:47:46because
00:47:47well it's sorting
00:47:48out the news
00:47:49from the noise
00:47:49like on Twitter
00:47:50I think on YouTube
00:47:51at that time
00:47:52there was 500 hours
00:47:53of YouTube video
00:47:54uploaded every single
00:47:55minute
00:47:56so the curators
00:47:57like the storyful
00:47:58people could only
00:47:59handle so much
00:48:00and the algorithm
00:48:01was there
00:48:01to sort out
00:48:02and break up
00:48:03what you should see
00:48:04based on your
00:48:04personal interest
00:48:05so it started
00:48:06as a good thing
00:48:07helping you
00:48:08from going
00:48:09from sucking
00:48:09on this fire hose
00:48:10of content
00:48:10to working
00:48:11out what you
00:48:12really wanted to see
00:48:13or what needed to see
00:48:14but then it started
00:48:15taking over
00:48:17because the advertising
00:48:19the advertising
00:48:20is there
00:48:20to make you feel
00:48:21like all this content
00:48:22now has to make you
00:48:23feel happy
00:48:24sad
00:48:24outraged
00:48:25because that's the way
00:48:26you buy things
00:48:27from people
00:48:28who advertise online
00:48:28and that's when
00:48:30social media
00:48:31made that
00:48:31dramatic jump
00:48:33from being
00:48:33a place of openness
00:48:35and collaboration
00:48:36to just being driven
00:48:39by the need
00:48:40to sell you things
00:48:41revenue
00:48:42total
00:48:42that was all about that
00:48:44and as a consequence
00:48:44in Twitter
00:48:46every decision
00:48:47became about money
00:48:48and I suddenly realised
00:48:49I was kind of working
00:48:50for an empire
00:48:51everything's been tabloided
00:48:53as well
00:48:53every
00:48:54even on
00:48:55ordinary newspaper
00:48:57websites
00:48:58it's all about
00:49:00how can we get
00:49:00your attention
00:49:01as opposed to before
00:49:02you'd buy a newspaper
00:49:04and you'd had the things
00:49:05bought
00:49:06and then you'd
00:49:07kind of leaf through
00:49:08it going
00:49:08well not so much
00:49:10or yeah I'll read this
00:49:10or whatever
00:49:11but now it's just
00:49:12it's so
00:49:15it just cheapens
00:49:16everything
00:49:16so
00:49:18you've had enough
00:49:18of Twitter
00:49:20then what?
00:49:21So then I have this idea
00:49:22well if this algorithm
00:49:24is screwing everybody up
00:49:25can we reverse it?
00:49:26Could we actually build
00:49:27an app that would allow
00:49:29Tommy to come along
00:49:29and say
00:49:30I really want
00:49:31you know
00:49:31trad music
00:49:32and comedy
00:49:33or whatever
00:49:34politics
00:49:34and I want
00:49:35exactly what I want
00:49:36and I'm going to be
00:49:37intentionally
00:49:37Naked women
00:49:38cooking
00:49:39or naked women
00:49:40cooking
00:49:41no no
00:49:41no no
00:49:42it's naked women
00:49:43cooking roast potatoes
00:49:47not even a roast beef
00:49:48no roast potatoes
00:49:49and they're all
00:49:51very kind
00:49:52and old women
00:49:53okay
00:49:54so it's not
00:49:55an arousal thing
00:49:56it's more just
00:49:58safety
00:50:02see what I can't get over
00:50:03is just the potatoes
00:50:04that's the thing
00:50:05because spuds and old women
00:50:06represent safety to me
00:50:07okay
00:50:08that's right
00:50:09anyway
00:50:09so reversing the algorithm
00:50:11so I would have actually
00:50:12that would be a great one
00:50:13to build
00:50:13in fact go and see
00:50:14if we can do that now
00:50:14and I'll send it to you
00:50:15later on
00:50:16this is one we made earlier
00:50:17so yeah
00:50:18we wanted this idea
00:50:19to get this new
00:50:20at the time
00:50:20this new AI
00:50:21they were called transformers
00:50:23these are magical new inventions
00:50:24that have now become
00:50:25what we have at OpenAI
00:50:26to basically allow you
00:50:28to pick what you wanted to see
00:50:29be conscious
00:50:30be intentional
00:50:31if you wanted to see
00:50:33you know
00:50:33more
00:50:34nudie
00:50:35girls doing roast potatoes
00:50:36you could see that
00:50:38but you could also
00:50:38it's really important
00:50:39because this will get sliced
00:50:40older
00:50:41very old
00:50:42got it
00:50:45very old
00:50:46let's go on record
00:50:47could you look at the camera
00:50:48and just say that
00:50:49I want to emphasize this
00:50:50I would like
00:50:52a website
00:50:52where I can go to
00:50:53where there are
00:50:54four or five
00:50:56very elderly
00:50:57naked
00:50:57kind women
00:50:59cooking roast potatoes
00:51:01this is going to be
00:51:02a Netflix series
00:51:02by the way
00:51:03very soon
00:51:03you know that
00:51:05naked and satisfied
00:51:08we went on anyway
00:51:09we decided to try
00:51:10to build this
00:51:11myself and Anya Kerr
00:51:11who's my business partner
00:51:13and along the lines
00:51:15we found actually
00:51:15that we could use
00:51:16this artificial intelligence
00:51:18for the negative purpose
00:51:19to find a really
00:51:20really seriously
00:51:21bad content
00:51:21that was out there
00:51:22and so we start working
00:51:23with Spotify
00:51:24to look into their
00:51:26hours long podcasts
00:51:27to see where we could
00:51:29see something
00:51:30that was truly dangerous
00:51:31and our algorithms
00:51:32with a bunch of small
00:51:33team of journalists
00:51:34who were native
00:51:35to those languages
00:51:37who could tell
00:51:37the kind of music
00:51:38that ISIS might use
00:51:39to recruit young people
00:51:41on Spotify playlists
00:51:44that was the kind of level
00:51:45that we could get into
00:51:46and the algorithm
00:51:47was starting to come
00:51:49and say to us
00:51:49oh we found this
00:51:50this is what you're
00:51:51looking for right
00:51:51and say yeah
00:51:52I also found this over here
00:51:53and so this golden feedback loop
00:51:56with the algorithm
00:51:56we could start to build out
00:51:59a picture
00:52:00your issue then
00:52:01is not with algorithms
00:52:03in themselves
00:52:04it's what they're being used for
00:52:06is that right?
00:52:07yeah and this is where we get
00:52:09into the two different futures
00:52:11that we face
00:52:11right
00:52:12on the one hand
00:52:12the algorithm itself
00:52:14this now artificial intelligence
00:52:17itself
00:52:17has the capacity
00:52:18to be augmenting us
00:52:19intelligence
00:52:20think about nurses
00:52:22being able to help out
00:52:23more directly
00:52:24in the health service
00:52:25or the ability to
00:52:26run the trial and error
00:52:27on the new drug
00:52:28much quicker than in the past
00:52:30or the ability to make sure
00:52:32that we can actually have
00:52:33more environmentally friendly
00:52:34food production
00:52:35the AI has the capacity
00:52:37to do all of that
00:52:38but meanwhile
00:52:40the big capitalist corporations
00:52:41in Silicon Valley
00:52:43are using it
00:52:44to trap people
00:52:45in chatbots
00:52:47so keep them
00:52:48coming back
00:52:50to the chatbot
00:52:51every day
00:52:51so we do have
00:52:53these two alternative realities
00:52:54of AI as a potential
00:52:56for human flourishing
00:52:57for the augmentation
00:52:58of human intelligence
00:52:59but over here
00:53:00the people making the money
00:53:02from it
00:53:02and making the big investments
00:53:03have a very narrow application
00:53:06of the technology
00:53:07there's a difference
00:53:08between augmenting
00:53:09our intelligence
00:53:10and expanding our lives
00:53:12and doing us harm
00:53:13though isn't there?
00:53:14Yeah
00:53:14so there's no limits
00:53:16for example
00:53:17on safety or guardrails
00:53:19we don't know
00:53:20how these AI
00:53:22are being trained
00:53:23they're being controlled
00:53:24in the background
00:53:25by a small group of engineers
00:53:26I mean the number of people
00:53:28who know what's going on
00:53:29inside the black box
00:53:30where all the data goes
00:53:31and all the system prompts
00:53:33as they call them
00:53:34maybe a couple hundred people
00:53:36in the world
00:53:36know what's going on
00:53:37inside that
00:53:38and that's essentially
00:53:39where we have the problem
00:53:41because if a tiny elite
00:53:43are controlling
00:53:44how this all works
00:53:45and keeping it to themselves
00:53:47then there's no way
00:53:48we get that brighter future
00:53:49of flourishing
00:53:51because it's all in the hands
00:53:53of a tiny group
00:53:54in Silicon Valley
00:53:55and social media
00:53:56was a warning
00:53:58because what the people
00:53:59in Silicon Valley
00:53:59are telling us
00:54:00is trust us
00:54:01and I think
00:54:02what I'm starting to detect
00:54:04is an awful lot of people
00:54:05feeling like
00:54:05no no
00:54:06it's time to be intentional
00:54:07it's time to see
00:54:08what's going on
00:54:10in the world
00:54:10with technology right now
00:54:11as both a positive
00:54:12and a negative
00:54:14and to feel
00:54:15we have some lever
00:54:16to push us
00:54:17toward a positive outcome
00:54:18now that could be
00:54:19leaving the social media platform
00:54:21that you hate
00:54:22to find a group
00:54:23or a newsletter
00:54:24or a podcast
00:54:25or somebody
00:54:26who's creating
00:54:27some goodness
00:54:28in the world
00:54:29and follow them
00:54:30and support them
00:54:31for me
00:54:32it's
00:54:32I'm starting to see
00:54:33that kind of movement
00:54:35within the younger generation
00:54:37the people who are native
00:54:38to social media
00:54:40who are starting
00:54:41to move with their feet
00:54:42they're starting
00:54:43to seek out
00:54:44real world experiences
00:54:46they appreciate
00:54:47the digital part
00:54:48of their life
00:54:49but they're not
00:54:50letting it dominate
00:54:50and so what I'm seeing
00:54:52right now
00:54:52is the beginnings
00:54:53of what I feel
00:54:54is kind of a digital
00:54:55civil rights push
00:54:57that feels now
00:54:58real in the lives
00:54:59of these younger people
00:55:00and I'd like to think
00:55:02that those who are older
00:55:03who still have
00:55:04some sense of optimism
00:55:08because I see
00:55:09my kids
00:55:10I see them deciding
00:55:12to take Polaroid photographs
00:55:13instead of taking
00:55:14their cameras out
00:55:14they usually did
00:55:15and posting it on Instagram
00:55:17more records
00:55:18LPs were sold
00:55:19in Ireland last year
00:55:20I think
00:55:20than since the last century
00:55:22right
00:55:22people coming in
00:55:23and investing
00:55:24in a certain nostalgia
00:55:26for a heritage
00:55:27that has no baggage
00:55:28for it
00:55:28the rise of
00:55:30this incredible
00:55:30cultural wave
00:55:31Ireland's going through
00:55:32right now
00:55:32this is coming
00:55:33from people
00:55:34that were born
00:55:36into an environment
00:55:37where digital
00:55:38was everything
00:55:39so our agency
00:55:41is intention
00:55:42yeah
00:55:43and that's our lifeboat
00:55:43that's how we go
00:55:45from the flood
00:55:45of as they call it
00:55:46slop
00:55:47that's the term
00:55:48to a human internet
00:55:50that may be much smaller
00:55:51may resemble
00:55:52a lot more
00:55:52like villages
00:55:53around a bigger community
00:55:54and that's already happening
00:55:56and I think people
00:55:57if you ask them
00:55:58they'll say
00:55:58well my WhatsApp
00:55:59my chat
00:56:00my chat groups
00:56:01are where I get
00:56:02all my information
00:56:04and I no longer
00:56:05have the vertical trust
00:56:06of looking up
00:56:06to the priest
00:56:07or the bank
00:56:07or the journalist
00:56:08I trust the people
00:56:10around me
00:56:10that I've got
00:56:11in my circles
00:56:12and it's a really
00:56:13interesting decentralization
00:56:14of power back to people
00:56:16with intention
00:56:17but also to trust
00:56:18the feeling
00:56:18that you get
00:56:21when you're being fed
00:56:22an endless loop
00:56:25of kind of
00:56:27weaker and weaker
00:56:29content
00:56:29to trust the body
00:56:31when it kind of goes
00:56:32I don't feel good
00:56:33yeah
00:56:34after this
00:56:35you know
00:56:36you know
00:56:37by stripping it away
00:56:37sometimes
00:56:38in the silence
00:56:39like
00:56:39I spent a lot of my time
00:56:40not listening
00:56:41you know
00:56:42I pitched things
00:56:42I was the storyteller
00:56:43jazz hands guy
00:56:45and this last year
00:56:46you know
00:56:46sitting with
00:56:47school teachers recently
00:56:49thinking about
00:56:50the burden on them
00:56:51or you know
00:56:52talking to
00:56:52all my friends
00:56:54my kids friends
00:56:55and listening
00:56:55and being curious
00:56:56you know
00:56:56I think that's been
00:56:58for me
00:56:59in the advanced stage
00:56:59of my career
00:57:00my life
00:57:01this year
00:57:02has been something different
00:57:04yeah
00:57:04it's been
00:57:05something special
00:57:06just to sit down
00:57:08and not try to
00:57:09pitch anything
00:57:10to anybody
00:57:10or sell something
00:57:11in a corporation
00:57:11but just
00:57:13sit with the knowledge
00:57:14that things are changing
00:57:15be open to the surprise
00:57:16of listening
00:57:16and what might happen
00:57:18rather than trying
00:57:19to put a shape
00:57:20on it
00:57:20yeah totally
00:57:21yeah
00:57:21also silence
00:57:22like that just
00:57:23that idea
00:57:24like I'm always
00:57:24taken by
00:57:26Sam Beckett
00:57:26you know
00:57:27he'd follow his da
00:57:27up into the mountains
00:57:28and the
00:57:29iambic pentameter
00:57:31the silence
00:57:32between
00:57:33the footsteps
00:57:35there's something
00:57:35beautiful about that
00:57:36I think
00:57:36as you get later
00:57:37in life
00:57:38I think you start
00:57:38to appreciate that
00:57:39when you see it
00:57:40around you
00:57:41and start to emerge
00:57:43almost by
00:57:44osmosis
00:57:44from this next generation
00:57:46so
00:57:47watch this space
00:57:47I think
00:57:59are you thinking
00:58:00about the
00:58:00roast potatoes
00:58:02no you just
00:58:03spoiled it
00:58:03I was creating
00:58:03a bit of silence
00:58:04there for everybody
00:58:05to enjoy
00:58:07but you big pervert
00:58:08you come in
00:58:09and you ruined it
00:58:11Mark it's been
00:58:12a pleasure
00:58:13thank you very much
00:58:13for coming on
00:58:14and talking
00:58:15cheers
00:58:17and now ladies and gentlemen
00:58:18all the way
00:58:20from California
00:58:21and Scotland
00:58:22it's a band
00:58:23called Doug
00:58:24performing
00:58:25Have At It
00:58:26which is the title track
00:58:27from their latest album
00:58:36I'm gonna wash my hands
00:58:39of this world
00:58:40I'm gonna join the band
00:58:43of the birds
00:58:44and I will scrub
00:58:46until they bleed
00:58:47and my blood will stain
00:58:49the earth
00:58:50when I wash my hands
00:58:52of this world
00:58:55won't you lend me
00:58:57a dollar
00:58:57for the fair
00:58:58I know heaven
00:59:00is a long way
00:59:02from here
00:59:03and all my money
00:59:05has been spent
00:59:06on catering
00:59:08and beer
00:59:08won't you lend me
00:59:10a dollar
00:59:10for the fair
00:59:12and I'm gonna scrub myself
00:59:34up before I go
00:59:35I'm gonna take this elevator
00:59:38to the final floor
00:59:40and everyone will see
00:59:42who's out
00:59:43well god damn
00:59:44that man was a catch
00:59:45I'm gonna scrub myself
00:59:47up before I go
00:59:50see my will
00:59:52has been signed
00:59:53sealed and ruined
00:59:55it's just three simple words
00:59:58how about it
00:59:59to my love
01:00:00I leave behind
01:00:02these breadcrumbs
01:00:03and dimes
01:00:04plus my will's
01:00:05been written
01:00:06sealed and signed
01:00:07sealed and signed
01:00:27well damn sure
01:00:29you'll come and
01:00:30join us too
01:00:32and I promise dear
01:00:34there's plenty
01:00:35here to do
01:00:36see the bars
01:00:38they never close
01:00:39and the guards
01:00:40they're all on yokes
01:00:42well one day
01:00:43I'm sure
01:00:43you'll come
01:00:44and join us too
01:00:47it's a never-ending
01:00:49party
01:00:49in the sky
01:00:50in the sky
01:00:52everybody up here
01:00:53is looking
01:00:54for the ride
01:00:55for the ride
01:00:56well your man
01:00:57your dad
01:00:57your grand
01:00:58taking turns
01:00:59with Uncle Sam
01:01:00it's a never-ending
01:01:02party
01:01:03in the sky
01:01:04in the sky
01:01:23now I'm gonna wash my hands
01:01:27of this world
01:01:28I'm gonna join the band of the birds
01:01:32and I will scrub
01:01:34until they bleed
01:01:35and my blood
01:01:36will stain the earth
01:01:37when I wash my hands
01:01:40of this world
01:01:51and I will rub
01:01:54and I will
01:02:02I will
01:02:11get this
01:02:11too
01:02:11and I will
01:02:11mark
01:02:11up
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