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00:00I always worry, it's like, do they think you're going to spill some water on the nuclear button or something?
00:03I didn't think in episode three we'd be going hard on what's like being a woman in Downey Street and
00:08Boys Club.
00:09They got slightly addicted to chairing cabras.
00:11A week, as they say, is a very long time in politics.
00:14Since our last episode, the US and Israel have launched a joint attack on Iran.
00:19And Keir Starmer is taking really quite a lot of flack from President Donald Trump on his response so far.
00:24But what is it really like in number 10 when the top brass show up?
00:27Today, we reveal what the UK government's Cobra meetings are really like.
00:31And how the Prime Minister has to manage that special relationship.
00:35I'm Cleo Watson, a former special advisor to Theresa May and Boris Johnson.
00:39Also special.
00:40I'm Helen McNamara, the former Deputy Cabinet Secretary.
00:43And this is In The Room.
00:49OK, before we get started, it's episode three.
00:52Welcome back if you've listened to episodes one and two.
00:55If you haven't, I strongly recommend because, let me tell you, some of our advice is becoming very pertinent just
01:01now.
01:02Who knew we were profits?
01:03Yeah, who knew?
01:05We should be making bets.
01:07Just a reminder, you can watch the show in full Technicolor on YouTube.
01:11Our channel is called In The Room Politics.
01:14And you can also keep up with us on Spotify, on Apple and on our Instagram page, which is intheroom
01:20.pod.
01:21So, in the aftermath of a fairly disastrous by-election last week in Gorton and Denton, I think Keir Starmer
01:27might have been hoping for a quiet week.
01:29But that all changed last Saturday morning, didn't it, Cleo?
01:31Yes. Poor Keir Starmer, because he actually got a lot of praise at the beginning of his premiership by talking
01:37about keeping the weekend sacred, spend time with his family.
01:40And I think it's fair to say Lady Starmer did not get that this weekend.
01:44But on Saturday morning, the US and Israel launched strikes across Iran, mainly focused on the capital, Tehran.
01:51They killed Ayatollah Khomeini and actually many of the core leaders who have been in charge of the regime there
01:58since 1989.
01:58Iran retaliated in very short order with missile and drone strikes across the Middle East region.
02:04There were general concerns, not unfair ones, that the situation will continue to worsen,
02:10made especially pertinent on Wednesday when the US sank an Iranian warship in the Indian Ocean.
02:16So, however, while Keir Starmer has allowed the US to use British bases for limited defensive strikes,
02:21that's not where we started from, and the UK is not participating in any offensive action.
02:26Just yet.
02:26And this is what he told MPs defending his cautious approach.
02:30We need to act, therefore, with clarity, with purpose, and with a cool head.
02:35I think it's fair to say that's landed quite well with the Parliamentary Labour Party,
02:39but it has not landed quite as well on the other side of the Atlantic.
02:44Here is how Donald Trump responded to Starmer's approach so far.
02:48This is not Winston Churchill that we're dealing with.
02:53I mean, no British Prime Minister wants to hear that, I guess, and it's definitely...
02:57But there's been a mixed reception to Keir Starmer.
02:59I think his backbench is pretty happy with him.
03:02He's been speaking to the choir in the Labour Party, but there's obviously quite a lot of international criticism
03:06and some concerns from lots of people about what's happening with our special or not-so-special relationship.
03:11I mean, before we get into this, there's a couple of other things that's worth noting.
03:15I mean, it's quite extraordinary the way that this attack happened.
03:18This is quite...
03:19People are talking a lot about, you know, is it Iraq 2003?
03:22You're talking about beats on the ground.
03:23Have they got a plan?
03:24I mean, it looks like a really, really well-executed plan to just assassinate the leadership.
03:29This is a very modern form of warfare.
03:31We've seen some of this a bit in Ukraine, and we're seeing it really play out here.
03:36It's a different kind of war.
03:37Yeah, a lot of drones.
03:39Yeah, and you can see...
03:40I mean, the other thing that is kind of, I suppose, particularly relevant in the UK
03:43is we're seeing there's lots of people, UK citizens, who are out in the Middle East at the moment.
03:49It's a really odd thing about influencers, kind of doing their influencing with missiles in the background,
03:55showing their usual compassion and understanding for humanity.
03:58But we ought to spare a thought.
03:59It's frightening.
04:00I mean, it's easy from a long way away, but it's frightening for people who are trapped in this situation.
04:04And much as it looks like the UAE government are doing a really good job of explaining and communicating
04:09and trying to reassure people as much as possible,
04:12this is not fun for people who are out there or people whose relatives are out there.
04:15And it's a troubling time.
04:17We've seen that it's quite hard to get...
04:18I mean, unsurprisingly, while there are live missiles flying through the sky,
04:22it's quite hard to fly out of the region.
04:24So as of now, there's been a flight that was supposed to leave from a man that hasn't left.
04:28And, you know, who knows where we'll be by the time we go out.
04:31Yeah, it's the words that no flyer wants to hear,
04:33which are there have been technical issues,
04:35which you know means go and wait by the baggage carousel,
04:38because this could be some time.
04:39Yeah, and it's scary, right?
04:42On top of all this, what should have added to quite a quiet week
04:46was Rachel Reeves, the Chancellor's spring statement,
04:49I think they're calling it, in the House of Commons on Tuesday.
04:50Did it seem a statement? I think it was a spring forecast.
04:52Just like a spring mumble mumble.
04:55A spring mumble.
04:56It was well trailed as containing absolutely no economic policy at all,
05:01and it did not fail to deliver on that front.
05:03The only problem is, is that the OBR's forecast,
05:07which it sort of predicts how well this will land,
05:09was made before this attack happened.
05:12So it's now essentially irrelevant.
05:14And the whole thing is predicated on oil and gas prices,
05:18which are now shooting up.
05:19And you'd have hoped, I mean, it was really,
05:21the Treasury will be kicking themselves now,
05:22because one of the things she said in her speech
05:23was a promise that energy bills were going to go down next month,
05:27and I think you don't have to be, you know,
05:29a great soothsayer of economic forecasts
05:31to know that when you can't get oil through the Straits of Hormuz,
05:34then oil prices are not going to go down.
05:36Yeah, it's just not in her gift.
05:37And if that is something she's going to have to commit to,
05:40we might see a sort of Liz Truss energy bills bailout situation,
05:44which is not going to help her headroom.
05:46I am excited to talk about what it's like in Downing Street
05:50when moments like this come up,
05:51because it is scary, but it's also just incredibly surreal.
05:56And guess what?
05:58As per the now irrelevance of the Chancellor's statement
06:03to the House of Commons on Tuesday,
06:05domestic matters continue to roll on,
06:07and this international conflict in particular
06:10can have a big impact on that.
06:13So stick around when we'll be telling you
06:15what it really does feel like to be in Cobra,
06:18where to be in Downing Street,
06:20how Keir Starmer can keep the special relationship on track
06:23with Donald Trump,
06:25and our advice to the team in general
06:28for keeping the government on track.
06:30Just a little disclaimer I'd like to make,
06:32and I'm sure you're probably with me, Helen,
06:33is we are very much domestic animals.
06:36Home birds rather than foreign birds.
06:39Exactly.
06:39We're not foreign policy wonks.
06:40There are plenty of interesting people out there
06:42talking about the geopolitical ramifications
06:46of what's going on in the Middle East right now.
06:47What we want to do today,
06:49which I think is actually really much more interesting,
06:53is talk about what it's like in the building,
06:55in the centre of government,
06:56when stuff like this is happening.
06:58And it is incredibly scary at points.
07:01It's unbelievably surreal.
07:03I just wanted to do a very quick sort of visualisation
07:05of what 10 Downing Street looks like,
07:08vis-a-vis a week like this,
07:10because to say that the vibes are different on each floor,
07:13I think, is a bit of an understatement.
07:16So we will get into shortly
07:17what is going on in the kind of labyrinthine part
07:21of the cabin office in Downing Street,
07:23where the big scary conversations are happening.
07:25The floor up from that,
07:27which is really the ground floor,
07:28is where the Prime Minister's office is,
07:30the Cabinet Room,
07:31a lot of the staff,
07:33and the front door,
07:34which is where people will be coming for receptions
07:37for things like St David's Day
07:39and International Women's Day,
07:41which happen come hell or high water.
07:43So roughly 200 Welsh people
07:46will have been traipsing past the Prime Minister's door,
07:49I mean, literally his office door this week,
07:51to go up that famous staircase
07:52where Hugh Grant danced,
07:54in love actually,
07:55to go to the state rooms
07:56for a lovely reception
07:57to celebrate their Welsh culture and heritage,
08:00where I suspect they are not being hosted
08:02by the Prime Minister,
08:03they're probably being hosted by his wife,
08:06or the Secretary of State for Wales,
08:08or the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.
08:11Someone has stepped up,
08:12very exciting,
08:13they'll be delivering the remarks.
08:15That being said,
08:16quite a lot of these members of the public
08:17might bump into the Prime Minister
08:19as he's heading off
08:20to chair a Cobra meeting.
08:22So it's like a very weird change of pace for him,
08:25where he's, you know,
08:26thinking about the Middle East
08:27and he's thinking about defence matters
08:29and suddenly he has to go,
08:30oh, hello, yes, nice to meet you.
08:33Borda, happy St David's Day.
08:35Yeah, I better be getting on now.
08:37Thanks so much for your support.
08:39See you.
08:39And then on the floor above that,
08:41is his flat, is his home,
08:43the shortest commute in the world
08:45that I can possibly imagine.
08:46So for him this week,
08:48it's a real worlds collide
08:50on his kind of public persona,
08:52his private persona at home,
08:53and the professional one,
08:55which is he's in charge
08:56of the defence and security of the realm.
08:59I mean, that's right, Clare,
09:00but also when big things like this happen,
09:03the mood and the atmosphere of Number 10 changes.
09:06So actually, it will have been true,
09:08this case, as it is for all the others,
09:10that we all found out
09:11what was going on on Saturday morning.
09:13Like, this has been a long time in gestation,
09:15so close followers of where
09:18American military, you know,
09:21aircraft carriers are, et cetera.
09:22We've seen the kind of activity
09:23that's been building up over the last year.
09:25There's been lots of speculation.
09:27People who know stuff about these things,
09:29which you and I, thankfully,
09:31don't number among,
09:32know that there's been something afoot
09:34for quite some time now.
09:35So inside the building,
09:37there will have been conversations
09:39going on for a number of weeks
09:40about actually, you know,
09:41what might be happening,
09:42what might the UK play,
09:44what role the UK might play,
09:45all of those things.
09:46And what you notice,
09:47if you're not kind of
09:48a national security or defence person,
09:50is that suddenly you'll just start to see
09:53just slightly more smart people
09:55suddenly in the building.
09:57The literal top brass coming in
09:58in their uniforms.
09:59The literal top brass.
10:01And then suddenly,
10:01there's more meetings with the door closed.
10:04There's more times when,
10:05I mean, you talked a bit about
10:06kind of where the kind of geography
10:08of the building,
10:09but people should be reassured
10:10that we're not about to kind of
10:12point specifically to Reams.
10:15But that, she says,
10:16worrying about her former colleagues,
10:17but that equally, you know,
10:19you do have much more kind of
10:20traipsing through to the cabinet office,
10:22to the, what's called the Cobra suite,
10:24which is where all these,
10:25the Cobra meetings
10:26and the security meetings happen.
10:27And you have a different hierarchy
10:29suddenly emerges in number 10.
10:30So, you know,
10:31in normal times,
10:33the Treasury are very much present,
10:35very much important,
10:36very much able to sit at the table
10:37and call the shots,
10:38as you'd imagine.
10:39Particularly in the week
10:39where an economic statement's being made.
10:41It will be their kind of time.
10:42I mean, it's always their time to shine,
10:43I think.
10:44The finance bros are here.
10:46They really are not finance bros,
10:47I would say.
10:48But anyway,
10:49they, you know,
10:50the hierarchy shifts around
10:51and so you get much more
10:52defence and security people,
10:54all the domestic stuff
10:54gets shuffled away to one side.
10:57Genuinely, physically,
10:58people are smarter,
11:00you know,
11:00shorter haircuts,
11:01you know,
11:01these very,
11:02lots more ironing.
11:03There's an uptick in ironing,
11:04I would say.
11:05A lot of ties.
11:05A lot of ties,
11:06a lot of clean shoes.
11:07As well.
11:08So, I mean,
11:09you and I both know
11:09that actually number 10
11:10and the centre of government
11:11in general
11:12is actually quite a scruffy place
11:13and both the place is scruffy
11:15and also,
11:16again,
11:16speaking of ourselves,
11:18the people are quite scruffy as well.
11:19Yes,
11:19but a week like this,
11:21not only are the shoes shiny,
11:22it's a specific shoe.
11:24So these security guys,
11:26they don't just wear
11:27a classic brogue all over,
11:29they wear these kind of,
11:29what you can only describe
11:30as like jopper boots,
11:31they're like slip-on jopper boots
11:33and they're very,
11:34very shiny.
11:34I think the urban people
11:35call them Chelsea boots.
11:36Chelsea boots,
11:36whatever they are,
11:37there's like,
11:38there's a very specific
11:40subsection of men's shoe
11:41that come out.
11:43It means that like
11:44the big boots are on,
11:45I guess.
11:45They do walk,
11:46you can hear them differently as well
11:47if you're like attuned to these things.
11:48The corridors sound a bit different
11:49because these different,
11:51different breed of humans
11:52are kind of literally
11:53marching about to some degree.
11:54Not quite the March of the Elephants
11:56in the Jungle book,
11:56but not really a model.
11:58They're in much better shape
11:58than an elephant in my experience.
12:00Yeah,
12:01so I'd love to talk to you,
12:02Helen,
12:02a bit about being in a COBRA meeting.
12:06So first off,
12:07COBRA,
12:08which you are so eager to point out
12:09because I think it is
12:10one of your chief bugbears,
12:12is C-O-B-R.
12:13There's no A on the end
12:14and it stands for
12:16Cabinet Office Briefing Rooms.
12:17Yes.
12:18And it's not just one room.
12:19It's a suite.
12:19It's a suite of rooms.
12:21Are we going to be in
12:21Converture and ABCD?
12:23You know,
12:23so many to choose from.
12:24Other letters are available.
12:26It's true.
12:26So yeah,
12:27they're not in Downing Street.
12:29They're in the Cabinet Office,
12:31surprisingly enough,
12:31as the name would suggest.
12:33And there's a few funny things about this.
12:34So Prime Ministers,
12:36most Prime Ministers really like
12:37going through to COBRA
12:38to have meetings,
12:39in my experience.
12:41And I don't know if you,
12:42you might not remember this.
12:43There was a period when
12:44Gordon Brown had just become
12:46Prime Minister
12:47where unfortunately,
12:48as was the case at that time,
12:49there was a,
12:51I think,
12:51I think a couple of times,
12:53there was a terrorist attack
12:54that had happened.
12:56And that,
12:57that two failed terrorist attacks,
12:58I think they were in the end,
12:59but very serious stuff.
13:00And there was,
13:01Gordon Brown wasn't super popular
13:03to start off with.
13:04And then they'd had these
13:05two or three things on the bounce
13:07where they'd had COBRA meetings
13:08and it'd gone very well.
13:10And the press guys
13:11are very happy about it
13:12because it suddenly looked like,
13:13you know,
13:13dynamic man of action.
13:14Here's Gordon Brown,
13:16Prime Minister,
13:16chairing a COBRA.
13:17And so they got slightly addicted
13:18to chairing COBRAs.
13:19And they used to call them
13:21for all sorts of things.
13:22And the nadir of that
13:24was that they called a COBRA
13:25for ash dieback,
13:27which was a...
13:28What, the tree thing?
13:29Yeah, the tree thing.
13:30Which really not amenable to it.
13:32I mean,
13:32the COBRA suite
13:33and the COBRA meetings
13:34you tend to use for
13:36kind of action this day,
13:38decision making.
13:38So you've got to get
13:40everyone together.
13:40You've got to be in a secure place.
13:41You've got to have
13:42really good communications.
13:44You tend not to be doing,
13:45and on the one hand,
13:46on the other hand,
13:46you tend to have
13:47the police constable
13:48on the line
13:49or whoever it is,
13:50your man in,
13:51wherever it is,
13:51and say kind of,
13:52right,
13:52what are we doing this afternoon?
13:53And they're very kind of
13:54go, go, go, go, go, go.
13:56Yeah.
13:56But also,
13:57tree disease doesn't
13:59scream special intelligence reports
14:01that we wouldn't want
14:03to be made public.
14:04Not amenable to that.
14:05It does sound like
14:05they use and abuse
14:06the COBRA system
14:07a little bit there.
14:08I mean,
14:08to be clear,
14:08the Prime Minister
14:09tends to chair
14:10a COBRA meeting
14:10for very serious situations,
14:12terrorist attacks,
14:13attacks like this
14:14on a foreign state.
14:15I have spent,
14:16I'm happy to say,
14:18relatively little time
14:19in a COBRA meeting,
14:20Helen,
14:20but perhaps you'd like
14:22to tell us one
14:22that you're allowed
14:23to talk about.
14:25Yeah,
14:25so you tend to be in them
14:26when there's an emergency,
14:27so that doesn't have to be a,
14:30you know,
14:30it doesn't have to be
14:31war or terrorism.
14:32It can be that there's,
14:34you know,
14:34some,
14:34we had COBRA meetings
14:36after the Grenfell Tower fire.
14:38We've had COBRA meetings
14:39when there's a really,
14:40you know,
14:41serious flooding situation
14:43so anything that
14:43the Prime Minister
14:44kind of needs to
14:45manage in the moment,
14:47that's the place
14:47where all those meetings
14:48are had
14:49and it's a quite,
14:50you know,
14:51it's a quite stressful
14:51and intimidating environment
14:52to be in.
14:53I remember the first
14:54COBRA meeting I went to
14:56was a very,
14:56very long time ago
14:57so it was just after
14:59the 7-7 terrorist attacks
15:01and at that time...
15:03And you worked
15:04at the Department of Culture
15:05then,
15:05didn't you?
15:06Yeah,
15:06so Tessa Jowell
15:08had personally
15:10looked after
15:11the victims of terrorism
15:12in the early 2000s
15:13and so although
15:14she was Secretary of State
15:15for the Department
15:16for Culture,
15:16Media and Sport
15:17but it was in a kind of
15:19personal role
15:19as a Cabinet Minister
15:20rather than the Department.
15:22Unfortunately,
15:23so when I first went
15:24to that meeting,
15:25so you're sitting
15:25around the table
15:26and everybody has their,
15:27because it's a security thing,
15:29people don't have
15:29their name cards
15:30like, you know,
15:30Helen McNamara
15:31it would just say
15:32the Department
15:32so it'd be like
15:33Home Office
15:33or MI5
15:35or whatever
15:35so just the kind of
15:36the Department
15:37and I can remember
15:38sitting in this meeting
15:39and this guy
15:40from the intelligence
15:41agencies
15:41like looking across
15:42the room
15:42at my little table
15:44around that said
15:44DCMS
15:45and look on his face
15:46of total,
15:48total bewilderance.
15:49I bet she's got
15:50a lot to say.
15:51Have we called
15:52for the clowns?
15:53Is someone doing
15:53an interpretive dance
15:54of this already?
15:55It was a,
15:55yeah.
15:56But certainly
15:56in the one up to
15:57Olympic,
15:57the Olympics
15:58you must have
15:58been talking about that
15:59a lot.
15:59Yeah,
15:59of course.
16:00Yeah,
16:00of course
16:01and that was,
16:01yeah,
16:01that was a bit
16:02more explainable
16:03perhaps
16:03but it's a
16:05it's a different
16:05dynamic that room
16:06not just kind of
16:08because of the
16:08matters that you're
16:09dealing with
16:10the kind of
16:10action this day
16:11things most of the
16:11time or planning
16:12for very serious
16:13things but also
16:14because the
16:14cast list is
16:15different.
16:16The chairs are
16:16different.
16:16There's a lot
16:17of clocks.
16:18The lighting's
16:18different.
16:19Lighting's very
16:19different.
16:20It's like Dr.
16:20Evil's lair in
16:21there.
16:21Yeah and it
16:22used to be one
16:22of those times
16:22when you'd go
16:23down and sometimes
16:24I'd be chairing
16:24official meetings
16:25down there sometimes
16:26before a big
16:27ministerial meeting
16:28and you'd walk
16:28into the room
16:29and you'd look
16:30up at the screen
16:31where all the
16:31kind of clocks
16:32were and you'd
16:32think crikey I
16:33don't really want
16:34to know why
16:35that time zone
16:36has suddenly
16:36appeared on the
16:38Cobra display.
16:39That's not you
16:40know we'll pretend
16:41I never saw that
16:42and we'll just
16:42go back to you
16:43know the time
16:44zones that are
16:44in the UK.
16:46And you'll
16:46remember that there
16:47was a whole load
16:48of fuss around
16:48at the beginning
16:49of Covid about
16:50whether Boris
16:50Johnson should
16:51have had more
16:52Cobra meetings
16:52or not but it
16:54effectively means
16:54and this is
16:55basically why
16:55Boris Johnson
16:55didn't like doing
16:56it is because
16:57you have to leave
16:58your nice study
16:59in number 10
16:59you have to trot
17:01through the link
17:02door into the
17:02cabinet office
17:03you have to walk
17:04it's about kind of
17:04it's a good
17:05five minute walk
17:06from your office
17:07get those steps in
17:08and also there is
17:10a kind of different
17:10hierarchy about
17:11who's allowed
17:12into the Cobra suite
17:13it's not quite as
17:14informal as people
17:15just bowling in and
17:15out of the office
17:16as you get in
17:17Downing Street
17:18however well run
17:19it is
17:20so you have a
17:21kind of different
17:22set of people
17:23around that table
17:24and sometimes
17:25Prime Ministers
17:26like that more or
17:26less and definitely
17:27the people who
17:28work for the Prime
17:28Minister can sometimes
17:29really not like that
17:30because the security
17:31guys sweep in
17:32and it's like yes
17:33of course your
17:34phones are going
17:34to be to one side
17:35but actually
17:36there's a seating
17:37plan and the
17:37seating plan is
17:38quite strict
17:38and everybody
17:39has to sit in
17:39the same place
17:40and now I'm
17:41terribly sorry
17:41there's a lot
17:42of kind of doors
17:43which are proper
17:44doors that are
17:44shut which means
17:45people can't
17:45kind of
17:46bowl their way
17:47into it
17:47yeah and being
17:48a like
17:50third tier
17:50political strategist
17:51is not a good
17:52reason to be in
17:53the room
17:53although many
17:53will say
17:54otherwise
17:55I don't think
17:55that even gets
17:56you into the
17:57overspill
17:57overspill room
17:58so they're
17:59quite comfy
18:00the seats are
18:01gorgeous
18:02on the plus
18:02side for Cobra
18:03it's a very
18:04comfy place
18:05of all of the
18:06meeting rooms
18:06I think probably
18:07thinking about it
18:08of all the
18:08meeting rooms
18:09in government
18:10the comfiest
18:10place to sit
18:11is in Cobra
18:13they're like
18:13lazy boy
18:14they're really
18:14bouncy chairs
18:15but you don't
18:17tend to bounce
18:18so much in them
18:18I've not spent
18:20a lot of time
18:20in there
18:21but I do remember
18:22it being very
18:23interesting
18:24and not knowing
18:25where the nearest
18:25loo was
18:26and it was a
18:27long meeting
18:27which is often
18:28the case down
18:28there
18:29and I remember
18:30just thinking
18:30oh my god
18:31I might ruin
18:32one of these
18:32seats
18:33if we're not
18:34careful
18:35I didn't want
18:36to leave
18:38there's no food
18:39and drink
18:39there's no food
18:40that's the one
18:41thing that you
18:41can't do
18:42in the Cobra
18:43suite
18:44I always worry
18:45do they think
18:45you're going to
18:45spill some water
18:46on the nuclear
18:47button or something
18:48maybe it's that
18:49I wonder if it's
18:50just a smell
18:51thing
18:52it's a bit
18:53airless down there
18:54do you really
18:55want to bring
18:55a Big Mac in
18:56and funk the
18:56place out
18:57they're very
18:58strict to the
18:59people who run
18:59those rooms
19:00there's no way
19:00you'd get away
19:01with that
19:01I remember
19:01various points
19:02in government
19:03spending quite
19:03a lot of
19:04time down
19:04there
19:04this is really
19:05ridiculous
19:06that I can't
19:06eat and drink
19:07surely there's
19:08somewhere
19:08and as always
19:09be really really
19:10nice to the
19:11technical people
19:12who runs
19:12looking at our
19:13technical people
19:13hello
19:14be really nice
19:15to the technical
19:16people
19:16and you quite
19:17often find
19:18they've got a
19:19secret room
19:19somewhere with a
19:20fridge that
19:20actually in
19:21between meetings
19:22if you're stuck
19:22down there
19:23there is actually
19:23somewhere you can
19:24go to hide your
19:25drink
19:25top tips to the
19:27Starmer team
19:27go to Lou
19:28beforehand
19:29if you're me
19:30have a snack
19:31have a drink
19:32buddy up to the
19:33tech guys
19:35you're in
19:36you'll be fine
19:36they'll look after you
19:37they'll help you if you've
19:38broken your pen or can't get out
19:40absolutely
19:41one of the things I really
19:43am quite interested in
19:44talking about
19:44and we are in week
19:46three of our podcast
19:47as has been pointed out
19:49many times
19:49we are two women
19:50hosting this
19:51that seems to be
19:52blowing some minds
19:54I didn't think in episode
19:55three we'd be going
19:56hard on
19:57what it's like being
19:58a woman in Downey
19:59Street and boys club
20:00but
20:01big capital
20:02but
20:04this week
20:05it will feel
20:06especially boys clubby
20:07which is
20:07kind of ironic
20:08because there's been
20:09all this commentary
20:10about the building
20:10in the last couple of weeks
20:11and how they should
20:12bring more women in
20:13but the moment
20:14that you start talking
20:15about
20:17bombs and warships
20:19it does just get
20:20bloakier
20:20and it's a bit like
20:21you know how there's
20:22some statistic
20:23that men think about
20:25the Roman Empire
20:25every ten seconds
20:27or something
20:27every ten seconds
20:28but like
20:29other facts are available
20:30something
20:30someone will be
20:32literally in charge of
20:33I don't know
20:34the planning brief
20:34and then suddenly
20:35they're sort of
20:36latent interest in
20:37the risk board game
20:38or James Bond
20:39comes out
20:40and it's like
20:40I'm just going to go
20:41and watch you out
20:42inside the PM's office
20:43just to see
20:43if like
20:44it's really funny
20:45like all things
20:46like all events
20:47dear boy
20:47it does divide people
20:48into sheep and goats
20:50a bit
20:50and you have people
20:51who think
20:51thank goodness
20:53I'm so glad
20:53there's other people
20:54here
20:54I'm just going to
20:55slip away
20:56and think
20:56count my lucky stars
20:57that I don't have
20:58to be involved
20:58in these conversations
20:59and then you have
21:00people who get
21:01a tiny sniff
21:02of those men
21:03with their short hair
21:03and their kind of
21:04strong voices
21:05and you know
21:06big shoes
21:07and then want
21:07to be part of it
21:08and all of the
21:10language changes
21:10it's one of the
21:11things that I used
21:12to find really
21:12entertaining
21:13is that you
21:13suddenly get
21:14if the dominant
21:15thing is suddenly
21:16defence and security
21:18then people start
21:19talking about
21:20things like
21:20what's the click
21:21to bang
21:22on that
21:22meaning like
21:23how long is it
21:24going to take
21:24to get something
21:25done
21:25you think
21:25the click
21:26to bang
21:27on your policy
21:28proposal
21:29is I don't know
21:30just what it was
21:30last week
21:31I love that
21:32my commute
21:32is three clicks
21:34three kilometres
21:35away
21:35completely
21:36it sort of
21:37pollutes all
21:38of the language
21:38and you do
21:39get people
21:39who suddenly
21:40well do two
21:41things basically
21:42and this happens
21:42in the whole
21:43of government
21:43firstly
21:44suddenly realise
21:45that the work
21:45that they're
21:45working on
21:46is actually
21:46really critical
21:47to whatever
21:48the defence
21:48and security
21:49effort is
21:49and you have
21:50to do a bit
21:50of actually
21:51no it's not
21:51thank you so much
21:52we'll get back
21:52to you
21:53or people
21:54who say
21:54oh well
21:55unfortunately
21:56now I can't
21:57do that piece
21:57of work
21:58I was supposed
21:58to be doing
21:58because of
21:59the uncertainty
22:00caused by
22:01the international
22:01situation
22:02and you're like
22:03really
22:03is the uncertainty
22:04caused by
22:05the international
22:05situation
22:06the thing
22:06that means
22:07you can't
22:07sort out
22:07prison places
22:08anymore
22:08so I don't
22:09think it is
22:10yeah yeah
22:10well it is
22:11a sort of
22:11perfect holding
22:12line
22:12obviously
22:12there's a lot
22:12going on
22:13just now
22:13as though
22:14the Prime
22:15Minister
22:15is constantly
22:16in charge
22:17of their brief
22:17anyway
22:18I do want
22:18to talk about
22:19what should
22:19be going on
22:20with those
22:20people
22:20because it
22:21is so easy
22:22for people
22:23to get a bit
22:23over excited
22:24essentially drop
22:25the various
22:25strings they
22:26should be holding
22:26on to
22:27and just
22:27refresh Twitter
22:28and hang
22:29around outside
22:29Cobra
22:30and again
22:31not to get
22:32too on my
22:33high horse
22:33about what
22:34happens to
22:35women in
22:35these situations
22:36but you do
22:37actually have to
22:38keep the lights
22:38on and keep
22:39the country
22:39moving and
22:40particularly
22:40keep that
22:42building going
22:42like these
22:43are long
22:43meetings
22:44there's no
22:44food
22:44there's no
22:45drink
22:46inevitably
22:47I don't know
22:48if you found
22:48this but I
22:48certainly found
22:49this some
22:49of those long
22:49Covid meetings
22:50for example
22:51it's a woman
22:52who ends up
22:53doing a job
22:54that isn't
22:54quite within
22:54her brief
22:55frankly
22:55thinking
22:57okay we're
22:57now on
22:58like hour
22:58three or
22:59four of
22:59being on
23:00empty
23:00stomachs
23:00and no
23:01water
23:01I think
23:01it's time
23:01to take
23:02a break
23:02and like
23:03everyone
23:04take a little
23:04walk around
23:05the building
23:06gather their
23:06thoughts
23:07have a snack
23:07let's get
23:08back to it
23:09a bit like
23:09running a
23:10nursery school
23:11or something
23:12but it's totally
23:13inevitable
23:13and then you find
23:14yourself thinking
23:14oh I'll just
23:15pick up all the
23:16papers
23:16shall I
23:17so we don't
23:17leave them
23:17lying around
23:18yes
23:19it's not
23:19ideal
23:20there is
23:21sometimes
23:21a real
23:22reflex
23:22you have
23:22to stop
23:23in
23:23yourself
23:23she says
23:23talking to
23:24both of us
23:24sometimes
23:25of fulfilling
23:26that gap
23:27one of the things
23:27I do think we should
23:28describe for people
23:28is the chronology
23:29of what happens
23:30and the sort of
23:30trickle down
23:31let's say phone tree
23:33effect of when a moment
23:34like this happens
23:35Saturday morning
23:37when you would get
23:37the call
23:38when I would get
23:38the call
23:39frankly
23:40I'm not a high priority
23:41person in these scenarios
23:42I would pretty much
23:43say it on the news
23:43but there is quite an
23:44important information
23:45there's also other
23:46things that I think
23:47so if we
23:47you know you and I
23:48wouldn't be right in
23:50the heart of it
23:50on a defence and
23:51security moment
23:52but we would have
23:53quite a lot of
23:54other work to do
23:55so that's the other
23:55thing so I think
23:56people will be
23:57surprised at how
23:58much there is a
23:59political
24:00like proper party
24:01political operation
24:02that needs to go on
24:03when there's big
24:04international moments
24:05like this
24:05do you want to talk
24:06to us a bit about
24:07that
24:07yes absolutely
24:08so obviously
24:09the most senior
24:11kind of relevant
24:12let's say stakeholders
24:13not to sound too
24:14businessy
24:15will be in
24:16Cobra
24:16the Prime Minister
24:17the Foreign Secretary
24:18Defence Secretary
24:18and so on
24:19and some very
24:20important civil
24:21servants
24:23you then have
24:24a bit of a
24:25decision to make
24:25and you and I
24:26will have done
24:26this together
24:27about you know
24:27when the Cabinet
24:28are informed
24:29and depending on
24:30what the course of
24:31action is going to be
24:32any decisions that
24:33might need to come
24:34out of that
24:34and so on and so
24:35forth
24:35and briefing the
24:35opposition
24:36so the other bit
24:37that's kind of not
24:38often talked about
24:39quite properly
24:39thank you very much
24:40oppositions
24:40present and past
24:42is that
24:43the opposition
24:44will be briefed
24:45on Privy Council
24:45terms it's called
24:46so that means
24:48that you senior
24:48politicians are
24:49members of the
24:50Privy Council
24:50which is the
24:51council that
24:52advises an ancient
24:53thing about the
24:53council that
24:53advises the
24:54monarch and being
24:55briefed on Privy
24:56Council terms
24:56that's if you're
24:57a right honourable
24:58means that you
24:59are told more
25:01than the public
25:01is told usually
25:02about a particular
25:04situation and then
25:05that allows you
25:06as the opposition
25:07to not cause
25:08problems for the
25:08government effectively
25:09exactly
25:09so there's
25:10let's say
25:11there's a chain
25:12of information
25:13so there's
25:14what the kind
25:15of let's say
25:16core members
25:17of the government
25:17decide and then
25:19there's how the
25:19cabinet is informed
25:20there is how
25:21the heads of
25:23other political
25:24parties are informed
25:25and then
25:25we would make
25:27decisions on things
25:28like do we need
25:29to talk to
25:29the different
25:30heads of the
25:32select committees
25:32within parliament
25:33and people who
25:35have held say
25:36former defence
25:37secretary briefs
25:38or former foreign
25:39secretary briefs
25:40things like that
25:40which might include
25:42people in the
25:42lords and then
25:44briefing different
25:45members of parliament
25:46also and of course
25:47the media
25:48speaking to the
25:49speaker about
25:50when statements
25:51are made to
25:51parliament and so
25:52on and so forth
25:52there's quite a
25:54clear chain of
25:54who you tell
25:55when and how
25:56you disseminate
25:57information and
25:58it's a sort of
25:59double air war
26:00particularly if you're
26:01on the political
26:01team which is
26:03making sure
26:04that you've
26:05given let's say
26:06your people
26:07enough information
26:08to go out
26:09on the media
26:09and support
26:10whatever the
26:11prime minister
26:11has decided
26:12and make the
26:13case you want
26:14to make to
26:14the public
26:15and there is
26:17just providing
26:19space within
26:20parliament to
26:20have a proper
26:20debate about it
26:21with MPs
26:22get other
26:23political parties
26:24on your side
26:25I do think
26:25just a quick
26:26footnote here
26:27this is quite
26:28an interesting
26:28foreign affairs
26:30problem
26:31because
26:33quite often
26:34opposition parties
26:35do just row
26:36in
26:36by and large
26:37behind the
26:38position of
26:38the government
26:39they tend to
26:40be quite
26:40supportive
26:41I think
26:42there can be
26:43a quite kind
26:44of binding
26:44together moment
26:45and actually
26:47we've not seen
26:47that this week
26:48though have we
26:48we have not
26:49and it's interesting
26:50because we've not
26:50seen that
26:51we've seen
26:52and it is usually
26:54the Conservative
26:54Party that is
26:55more vocal
26:56about the importance
26:57of the special
26:57relationship
26:58so I think
26:58the combined
26:59thing that we're
27:00seeing where it's
27:01very obvious
27:02from space
27:03that one of
27:03the things
27:04that's going
27:04on in the
27:04Labour Party
27:05is they are
27:05yet again
27:06replaying their
27:08thoughts and
27:09feelings
27:09deep feelings
27:10about the
27:10Iraq war
27:11so you have
27:12the Labour Party
27:13showing us
27:14that they are
27:15thinking about
27:16the Labour Party
27:16and replaying
27:18all of those
27:19internal dynamics
27:19and you've got
27:20a really
27:21really deep
27:21set reluctance
27:23within the
27:23Labour Party
27:24itself to be
27:25supporting
27:27the US
27:27in action
27:28overseas
27:29you've got
27:30this really
27:30interesting split
27:31between
27:32what our
27:33government is
27:34doing
27:34and what
27:35their sister
27:36parties
27:36are doing
27:37unlike other
27:39left leaning
27:39governments
27:40our government
27:40has been
27:40much more
27:41vocal about
27:42international law
27:43and the
27:43technicalities
27:44of what we're
27:44doing
27:44and is in
27:45a slightly
27:45isolated place
27:46even amongst
27:47its own
27:48political brethren
27:49internationally
27:49not just
27:50internationally
27:51in terms of
27:51our other
27:52countries
27:52yes
27:52another thing
27:53I would have
27:53been doing
27:54is working
27:55with the
27:56political team
27:57to contact
27:58sister parties
27:59abroad
27:59so for the
28:00Conservatives
28:01obviously
28:02it was the
28:02Canadian
28:03Conservatives
28:03the Australian
28:05Conservatives
28:05the Republicans
28:06in the US
28:08and you can
28:09just get a
28:10you know
28:10they have
28:11they're as well
28:11as connected
28:12within Washington
28:13say as
28:14we are in
28:15Westminster
28:16and you can get
28:17a sense of
28:18what's going on
28:18the ground
28:19what is the
28:19pressure the
28:20president is under
28:21in the same way
28:21the prime minister
28:22is under pressure
28:22here and so on
28:23so forth
28:23and you can
28:24just anticipate
28:26what their
28:26government might
28:27come out and
28:27say
28:28and there
28:29has quite
28:30obviously
28:30been a bit
28:31of a
28:31misstep
28:32here
28:32particularly
28:33because
28:33obviously
28:34Keir Starmer
28:35is dealing
28:35with Republicans
28:36in the US
28:37but Canada
28:38centre left
28:39with Mark Carney
28:40Australia
28:40centre left
28:41with Albanese
28:42and actually
28:44even the Germans
28:44are all
28:45backing Trump
28:46and so we do
28:47look quite out
28:48of step
28:49and I don't
28:50know whether
28:50those phone
28:51calls were
28:51made
28:51but it does
28:52seem
28:53quite an obvious
28:54blind spot
28:54that they've
28:55not picked
28:56that up
28:56it goes
28:56very clearly
28:57to who do
28:57you care
28:58about
28:58and the
28:59very clear
28:59hierarchy
29:00is that
29:00they've cared
29:01first and
29:01foremost about
29:02the sentiment
29:03within their
29:03own party
29:04and then
29:05cared about
29:06and what they
29:06believe to be
29:07the right thing
29:07to do
29:07and then
29:08cared about
29:08how does
29:09this mean
29:09in terms
29:10of overseas
29:10and I think
29:10sometimes there's
29:11a real
29:12thinking about
29:13special relationship
29:13the special
29:14relationship
29:14but I think
29:15the relationship
29:16part of that
29:16word is really
29:17important
29:17I feel like
29:18this is the
29:18thing we're
29:19going to come
29:19back to again
29:19and again
29:20with this
29:20government too
29:21that there's
29:21a
29:23relationships
29:24and personalities
29:24and kind of
29:25who does
29:26what
29:26and remembering
29:26who was there
29:27for you
29:28I mean
29:28technically
29:29the Labour
29:30government
29:30should be
29:31really good
29:31at this
29:31because
29:32my experience
29:32of them
29:33is they are
29:33deeply expert
29:35at remembering
29:35which of them
29:36voted for who
29:37in the Labour
29:37student elections
29:38to whichever
29:38policy committee
29:39it was
29:40in 1990
29:41blah
29:41they really
29:42get that
29:44grudges
29:44are long held
29:45and relationships
29:46matter
29:46and it's all
29:47about whether
29:47you showed up
29:48and when you
29:48did
29:49but that is
29:50all applied
29:50quite internally
29:51and it is
29:52troubling to
29:53see how far
29:54away we are
29:55getting from
29:55those conversations
29:56and fundamentally
29:58we don't get to
29:59choose who
30:00is the American
30:01president
30:01that's what the
30:02Americans get to
30:03choose
30:03so you have to
30:04deal with the
30:05breaks that
30:05you've got
30:06and you're
30:07either with
30:07them or
30:08against them
30:08and that's
30:09definitely how
30:09our position
30:10is being read
30:11and as we
30:11discussed last
30:12week
30:12Keir Starmer
30:12lost the
30:13man that he
30:14appointed as
30:14US ambassador
30:15Peter
30:16Mendelsohn
30:16you'd think
30:17that having
30:18someone in
30:19Washington
30:19just now
30:20would be
30:20quite useful
30:21we do have
30:23somebody in
30:23Washington
30:24just now
30:24just to
30:25reassure you
30:25it's a
30:26Christian
30:26Turner
30:27who's a
30:27very good
30:28egg indeed
30:28so I'm
30:29confident that
30:30he'll be
30:30winning arguments
30:31for us
30:31we're in
30:32safe hands
30:32we're in
30:32safe hands
30:33one thing I
30:33do want to
30:34talk about
30:34because they
30:35can be an
30:35absolute riot
30:36are the
30:37phone calls
30:38that will be
30:39reported very
30:40widely that the
30:41prime minister will
30:42be having with
30:42international leaders
30:43and top amongst
30:45those of course
30:45the calls with
30:46Donald Trump
30:47or POTUS
30:48I'm not sure
30:48absolute riot
30:49will be the
30:50description applied
30:51to Sir Keir
30:52Starmer's phone
30:52calls of anyone
30:53to be fair
30:54well these are
30:55worth listening to
30:56I mean I
30:57cannot really
30:57describe the
30:58bun fight of
30:59people trying
31:00to get put on
31:01to listen in on
31:02these calls
31:02obviously no
31:03staff can speak
31:04it's a private
31:05call technically
31:06between the
31:07prime minister and
31:08the president
31:08but people do
31:09listen in
31:10obviously
31:10it leads to
31:11give a very
31:11clear readout
31:12of what has
31:12happened and
31:13people will
31:14cluster around
31:15in the immediate
31:16sort of outer
31:17office outside
31:18the PM's room
31:18yeah so what
31:19you normally
31:19have is the
31:20prime minister
31:20by themselves
31:21in their study
31:22because they've
31:22got to concentrate
31:23on having the
31:23phone call
31:23they might have
31:24one private
31:24secretary or
31:25somebody with
31:26them maybe
31:26one or two
31:26people know
31:27more than
31:27that
31:28and they've
31:28got the
31:28notes they
31:28want to hit
31:29and they've
31:30been you know
31:30they've got
31:30people who
31:31can eyeball
31:31them but
31:32everybody else
31:32will be the
31:33doors shut
31:34and I can
31:34remember being
31:35in the outer
31:35office because
31:36obviously we
31:36had a lot of
31:37calls with
31:37international
31:37leaders in the
31:38Brexit days
31:39yes and
31:39you'd all be in
31:40the outer
31:40office with
31:41the call
31:41being kind
31:42of broadcast
31:42into the
31:42room and
31:43then you'd
31:43have like
31:45you say a
31:45bit of a
31:45bum fight
31:46about who
31:46can get
31:47into here
31:48into the
31:48call and
31:49then the
31:49deliciousness
31:50of what
31:51actually happened
31:51in the
31:51call and
31:52then the
31:52official readout
31:53which was
31:53also had to
31:55be coordinated
31:55with the
31:56official readout
31:56from the
31:57other side
31:57because obviously
31:58if those two
31:58things were
31:59disconnected
31:59then that
32:00caused a
32:00problem
32:00so even
32:01in my
32:02experience of
32:03official
32:04recollections
32:04may vary
32:05official readouts
32:06of calls
32:07between
32:07international
32:07leaders were
32:08kind of
32:09occasionally
32:10wildly
32:10different
32:10oh yeah
32:11you'd have
32:11you'd have
32:12Donald Trump
32:12saying I
32:13mean Boris
32:13Trump was
32:14quite good
32:14at handling
32:14these kinds
32:15of things
32:15but it was
32:16impossible to
32:17keep Donald
32:17Trump on
32:18track for the
32:19conversation that
32:19he wanted to
32:20have so you
32:21know
32:21I do remember
32:21them talking
32:22about burgers
32:22for about 15
32:23minutes once
32:24hamburgers you
32:24have good
32:25hamburgers over
32:26there Boris
32:26oh little
32:28tiny Emmanuel
32:29you think who
32:29the hell is
32:30that and you
32:30realise he's
32:30talking about
32:31Macron like he
32:32goes off on
32:32these crazy
32:33tangents and
32:34then the
32:34private secretary
32:35you have to
32:35write up you
32:36know the
32:36prime minister and
32:37the president
32:38reiterated their
32:39commitment to the
32:40you think I
32:42don't remember
32:42I don't remember
32:43that
32:43you think my
32:44gosh that was
32:4520 minutes of
32:46honest to God
32:46how you interpret
32:47both liking
32:48hamburgers is in
32:49fact reiterating
32:50yes that's true
32:50but having you
32:52know having spent
32:52quite a lot of
32:53time with Boris
32:53Johnson who can
32:54go off on a
32:55tangent like you
32:55would not believe
32:56it was amazing to
32:57see him on the
32:58back foot trying to
32:59keep the conversation
32:59on track with
33:00somebody else
33:01look I imagine
33:02that Keir Starmer's
33:03relationship or
33:04interactions with
33:04Donald Trump are
33:05a little bit more
33:06like Mrs. May's
33:06than like Boris
33:07Johnson's
33:08Lady May's
33:08sorry Lady May's
33:10and I expect
33:12that Keir Starmer's
33:14not going to be
33:15put in the awkward
33:15position where he
33:16has to hold hands
33:17goodness do you
33:17remember that
33:18oh my gosh I've
33:18forgotten yes her
33:20visit to Washington
33:20her visit to
33:21Washington where he
33:22yeah he held hands
33:23with her that was
33:24super awkward
33:26but I can also
33:27remember you know
33:28speaking of the
33:29phone calls when
33:31she was having let's
33:32call her Brexit
33:32troubles which we're
33:33incredibly familiar
33:34with he said to
33:36her oh you should
33:36just sue the EU for
33:38a billion dollars
33:39or whatever
33:39a trillion dollars
33:40a trillion dollars
33:42one trillion dollars
33:44and again there'd be
33:46a much more sort of
33:47Starmer response to
33:47that than what
33:48Boris Johnson might
33:49understand that
33:51Donald Trump has a
33:52kind of pinch of salt
33:53element to things that
33:53he says which I think
33:54is pretty clear about
33:56Trump's remarks about
33:57Starmer not being a
33:58Churchill character he
33:59just these things fly off
34:00the handle a little bit
34:01with him but you can
34:03imagine if people can
34:04remember the interview
34:05Therese May did when
34:06she was asked what
34:07the naughtiest thing
34:07was she'd ever done
34:08her sort of visible
34:11reaction to it I
34:12imagine that's how
34:13she thought the idea
34:14of suing the EU for
34:16a trillion dollars
34:16maybe we should have
34:17done looking back on
34:18it yeah why not
34:19why not I think
34:20that's called the
34:21kitchen sink approach
34:22to the special
34:23relationship
34:25we talked a bit at
34:26the beginning about
34:27how when these things
34:28are going on like
34:29obviously there's a
34:30very very small group
34:30of people who are
34:31actually involved in
34:32decision making rightly
34:33who are actually
34:34involved then there's
34:35a large group of
34:36people who would
34:36love to be in that
34:37room and constantly
34:38trying to get into it
34:38or pretending they're
34:39part of it when
34:40they're absolutely not
34:41and just kind of in
34:42homage shining their
34:43shoes like I did
34:44CCF at school
34:46it's a bit of that
34:47and kind of trying to
34:48put it with an air of
34:49mystique pretending
34:49that they know things
34:50they don't know
34:51and then there's a
34:53whole load of people
34:53who are using the
34:54fact that this is
34:55going on as an
34:56excuse for them not
34:57actually doing the
34:58work that they were
34:58doing and my
34:59favourite rogues
34:59excuse of that is
35:00always well I can't
35:01do it because of the
35:02uncertainty and you
35:04sort of thinking
35:04oh I don't remember
35:05did we waste that day
35:06when everything was
35:07certain when we could
35:08have done everything
35:08I mean uncertainty is
35:09where we live my friend
35:10so please get on with
35:11it we're going to
35:13talk a bit now about
35:14if we were in the
35:15room which probably is
35:16not the room room it
35:17probably is the
35:18peripheral room that
35:19you and I would have
35:20been in what would
35:22we be advising Keir
35:23Starmer now
35:23yeah it requires some
35:24future planning because
35:27I have some sympathy
35:28with people thinking
35:29well there is
35:29uncertainty
35:31what's the gas and
35:32oil prices
35:32what is that going to
35:34mean for everything the
35:35Chancellor said on
35:36Tuesday what does that
35:37mean for cost of living
35:38that was my always my
35:39like crisis rule of
35:40thumb for the centre of
35:42government is to split
35:43your activity into three
35:45broadly so you have one
35:47set of people who are
35:48absolutely hardwired and
35:49focused on the crisis as
35:50it is and you need to
35:51make sure that isn't just
35:53literally one set of
35:54humans that you do think
35:55about actually how can
35:57people tag in and out
35:58because you're you know
35:59war doesn't conveniently
36:00happen during parliamentary
36:02term time in you know
36:04working office hours you
36:05do need to be quite
36:05sensible and to be fair on
36:07the defence and security
36:08side they're certainly
36:09more practiced and
36:10better at this
36:11oh they've got stamina
36:12those guys
36:12well more practiced and
36:13better than we were on
36:13Covid for example of
36:15actually making sure
36:15you've got a shift
36:16system and you're
36:17thinking about how
36:17people are looking
36:18after it themselves
36:19so there's a third
36:20third of the operation
36:21is going to be entirely
36:23on on the crisis
36:25a third of the operation
36:27ought to be on what
36:28are the consequences
36:28of the crisis
36:29domestically so you
36:30talked about Ukraine
36:31and energy obviously
36:33we're going to have
36:34that now because of
36:36the location of where
36:37this war is it's not
36:38it's not rocket surgery
36:40you can work that one
36:41out but there will be
36:42all sorts of other
36:43things which are you
36:44know domestic
36:46consequentials we used
36:47to call them so when I
36:48ran the economic and
36:49domestic cabinet
36:50secretariat you know
36:51the national security
36:52secretariat will be doing
36:53the first set of things
36:54and we'd be thinking
36:55about okay what do we
36:56pick up from there
36:57what do we need to
36:57think about so some
36:59of it is is very kind
37:00of immediate and human
37:01like what was what's
37:03going to happen to all
37:03the people that are
37:04the bush systems that
37:05were there at the
37:05moment how they're
37:06going to be looked
37:07after when they come
37:07back what are the
37:08kind of knock-on
37:09consequences for the
37:10rest of the country
37:12and what might that
37:13look like over the
37:13next year and then the
37:15final third of activity
37:16should be one of the
37:17things that people
37:18close to the government
37:19have moaned about
37:19repeatedly is they
37:20moan about the fact
37:21that it's impossible to
37:21get anything done
37:22because the 24-hour news
37:24cycle and everyone's
37:25scrutinizing everything
37:26and it's so annoying
37:27and you never get the
37:27time and space
37:28do you know what
37:29you've got the time
37:30and space
37:31so there's a little
37:32but you have to be
37:33careful here because
37:33this is very serious
37:34business and it's not
37:35kind of a good day to
37:36bury bad news sort of
37:38situation however
37:40there has been a fair
37:41bit of that Helen
37:42I mean they've done a
37:43good job of like
37:43shoving out some stuff
37:44in the meantime
37:45but there is a kind of
37:46like okay so what are
37:47you going to do if you
37:48have got this well if
37:49all attention is somewhere
37:50else what is the work
37:52that you need to be
37:52getting on with and how
37:53do you protect at least
37:55a third of your
37:55operation and your
37:56political brain power
37:57and your capacity to be
37:58doing that because the
37:59problem about crises is
38:00they generate a huge
38:02amount of work even if
38:03that work is just sitting
38:05in a room watching you
38:07know watching the news
38:07watching Twitter talking
38:08about it it's very very
38:10easy to have all of your
38:11time swallowed up so this
38:13is one of those times
38:13you have to be really
38:14disciplined about making
38:15sure you've got some
38:16people not thinking or
38:17being distracted about
38:18any of these things and
38:19just trying to get on
38:19with stuff so in however
38:21many weeks or months
38:22time you can actually
38:23say well here we are
38:24here is our social care
38:26plan here is our plan for
38:27what to do with the
38:28water industry which is
38:28another thing that's
38:29really political thing
38:30that's gathering
38:31momentum at the moment
38:31or whatever it is
38:33like really really be
38:34precious and protective
38:35about that space
38:36yes and you do tend to
38:37have people who are
38:38immediate firefighters and
38:40people who try and
38:41protect I mean for
38:42example the policy unit
38:44at least when and when
38:45we worked in Downing
38:46Street they were sort of
38:47kettled away in a
38:48different part of the
38:49building sort of away
38:50from in some ways some
38:51of the nerve center but
38:52that's because it's it's
38:54not important and it's
38:56not helpful for them to
38:57be distracted by a lot
38:59of the kind of energy
39:00coming out of the
39:01prime minister's office
39:01say they need time and
39:03space to actually plan
39:04and think about this
39:05stuff I also think
39:06there's just an
39:07acceptance that these
39:09kinds of events do
39:09affect the day job so
39:11the home secretary for
39:12example will be you
39:14know she's got a big
39:15announcement this week
39:16on immigration she's
39:17obviously been working
39:18very very hard on that
39:19but she will also have
39:19to accept that she
39:21might be having
39:22conversations about
39:23tightening up police
39:24presence around say
39:25mosques and temples
39:26because you can have
39:28lots of sort of social
39:29and cultural sensitivities
39:31attached to these kinds
39:32of conflicts as well so
39:34this some of it is just
39:35absorbing into your
39:37already day-to-day
39:39workload
39:40ramifications that most
39:41people won't have
39:42thought of actually
39:43yeah and I would also
39:45hope that this far into
39:46the government that
39:47some of the people
39:48some of the senior
39:49people around Keir
39:50Starmer particularly on
39:51the political side are
39:53kind of practiced enough
39:54to know that actually
39:55they don't have to be in
39:55the room the one of the
39:57things that when you've
39:57got this sort of
39:59situation thankfully we
40:01are well served in our
40:01country by our defense
40:03and security services and
40:05that actually they can
40:06step in and step up and
40:07support the prime
40:08minister and you can kind
40:10of take it just lean back
40:11a bit and do something
40:12different with your time
40:13and energy don't get
40:15sucked into it this isn't
40:16year one this is now
40:17well into year two how
40:19can you make sure that
40:19you're making the most
40:20of this opportunity as
40:21well and you don't have
40:22to all be doubled up and
40:24hugger-mugger and
40:24everybody in the cobra
40:25suite and everybody in
40:27every meeting and
40:27everybody just spending
40:28their time talking about
40:29these things but it is
40:30tempting I totally see
40:32that you do think you
40:34know particularly after a
40:34by-election defeat last
40:35week and the leadership
40:38the leadership sort of
40:39speculation he's had in
40:40last month it is really
40:42tempting to think this is
40:43what really matters
40:44particularly because
40:45you're lying to MPs I
40:46mean no one in their
40:47right mind will be
40:48thinking of trying to
40:48topple him this week
40:49because it's just so
40:51snaky and inappropriate
40:52and he's got other
40:53things to do and it
40:54really does focus minds
40:56and you know this we
40:58talked about this in
40:59episode one about sort
41:00of events dear boy and
41:01if your leadership's
41:02under threat and it's
41:03amazing how not that
41:05obviously anyone would
41:06want to glory in it but
41:07an international crisis
41:09can remind MPs
41:11particularly your own
41:12MPs who might be
41:13feeling like they want
41:13to get rid of you
41:15that there are more
41:17important things at play
41:18here and particularly
41:20for the political team
41:21you know these may
41:21elections around the
41:22corner they're going to
41:23need a record to defend
41:25and they are going to
41:27want to make sure that
41:28being able to talk
41:29about bigger more
41:30significant international
41:32crises it's more
41:33important it's a great
41:35line for them to be
41:35using against the
41:36Greens and reform
41:37and for labour
41:38activists for labour
41:39MPs very clearly
41:40again going back to
41:41their own history and
41:42their own versions of
41:43themselves that they
41:44talk about this is a
41:45big tick for Keir
41:46Starmer this week
41:46whether it's a big
41:48tick in other ways
41:49we'll see
41:50thanks so much for
41:51joining us for this
41:52episode remember if you
41:53enjoyed it please like
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41:55five star review and
41:56we'll see you next time
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42:09the room politics
42:10this podcast is part of
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42:12network and is produced
42:14in association with
42:15Next Chapter Studios
42:16the executive producers
42:17are Carrie Rose and
42:19Olivia Foster and the
42:20producer say it with me
42:22now is Sam Durham
42:23special shout out to
42:25Maya this week as well
42:26oh yeah thank you and
42:27see you next week in the
42:28room
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