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00:00The Prime Minister is on a AstroTurf playing five-a-side.
00:02Like you say, good for him, nice to see him be his actual self
00:05and it is infinitely better to watch that video
00:08than any of the TikToks emerging from number 10.
00:12Lots of us are taking some time off right now
00:14which means having a chance to relax.
00:15But it's not always easy to have a break
00:17especially if you're in charge of running the country.
00:20Just look at Keir Starmer who this week was lampooned
00:22for playing a game of five-a-side.
00:24In this week's episode we'll discuss why it's so hard for MPs to have fun.
00:28And why it's important that they do.
00:30I'm Cleo Watson, a former Special Advisor to Theresa May and Boris Johnson.
00:35And I'm Helen McNamara, the former Deputy Cabinet Secretary.
00:38And this is In The Room.
00:42Welcome back. It's episode seven of In The Room.
00:45If you've been enjoying the show so far
00:47please do click follow on your podcast player
00:50or subscribe to the YouTube channel
00:52where you can see us in all our Technicolor glory.
00:55Doing this really does help keep us growing
00:57and we've got lots of exciting plans in the works
01:00so stick with us and you'll see what's coming.
01:02Also don't forget to follow us on Instagram
01:05at intheroom.pod.
01:07At the time of recording
01:08we are heading into the bank holiday weekend
01:10taking a bit of time off
01:12lots of relaxing going on.
01:13Nice long car journey
01:14good time to listen to a new independent podcast.
01:17For example.
01:18Lots of things that we can all do.
01:20But for politicians
01:21it's a little bit trickier
01:23when it comes to taking time off.
01:25This week we've seen some clips circulating
01:27of Keir Starmer
01:29enjoying a game of five-side football.
01:32Is he wearing a knee support?
01:34Look at his running.
01:36Yeah I think he is.
01:41I mean good on him.
01:42Yeah.
01:42Good on him.
01:44First things first
01:45he very obviously
01:46is just being recorded illicitly.
01:49He doesn't realise that someone
01:50is taking footage of him.
01:53I actually therefore
01:54find it quite delightful
01:55compared to his TikToks
01:56where it's like so staged
01:58and awkward.
01:59And this is still quite awkward.
02:00For those people who haven't seen it
02:02the Prime Minister is on a
02:04AstroTurf
02:04playing five-a-side
02:05with some friends
02:06in like full kit
02:08which is also quite sweet
02:09and like slightly primary school-ish.
02:11And he's running around
02:13he's getting involved.
02:14He's also 63 by the way
02:16and he's got the waist of the world
02:17on his shoulders
02:17but I kind of love it.
02:20Well I mean entirely
02:22good for him.
02:23He's always played football
02:24as he's talked about
02:25almost as much
02:25as the fact that his dad
02:27was a toolmaker.
02:28So we know that Keir Starmer
02:29really loves football
02:30and there he is
02:32his authentic self
02:33at whatever age he is.
02:35Like you say
02:35good for him
02:36nice to see him
02:36be his actual self
02:38and it is infinitely better
02:39to watch that video
02:41than any of the TikToks
02:43emerging from number 10.
02:44But he's not the only person
02:45there's been a somewhat
02:46controversial video
02:48circulating of.
02:49Yes that's true.
02:50So one of his MPs
02:51Stella Creasy
02:52who's the MP for Walthamstow
02:54posted a video of herself
02:55at a silent disco.
02:58So for those who aren't familiar
02:59it's when you all wear headphones
03:00and you can kind of tune in
03:02to the songs you want.
03:04If you take your headphones off
03:05everyone's dancing
03:06in complete silence.
03:08I mean it sounds
03:08absolutely barbaric.
03:09Oh it's a riot.
03:10If you want to
03:11you can actually watch this
03:12on Instagram
03:13in all its glory.
03:13but she's captioned it
03:15with
03:15hee hee
03:16in London
03:17we're still dancing.
03:22That's everything
03:23that I thought
03:24a silent disco would be.
03:26Yeah.
03:27Well the funny reaction
03:28to it has been
03:29that people have
03:30got quite cross
03:30some people are just
03:31basically saying
03:32it's embarrassing
03:33and some people
03:35are saying
03:35you know
03:36particularly quite a lot
03:37of story MPs
03:38youth unemployment
03:40is at record levels
03:41we've got an oil crisis
03:43meanwhile
03:44the government's own MPs
03:45are dancing
03:45and so on
03:46and actually Stella Creasy
03:47has replied saying
03:49I'm showing that
03:50I've got personality
03:50and I'm authentic
03:52and we'll get into
03:53some of our advice later
03:54but it goes in that
03:55kind of general rule of thumb
03:56of perhaps think
03:58before you post.
03:59I mean I'm sure
04:00that's good
04:01all weather advice.
04:01I'm not sure
04:02whether Stella Creasy
04:03turns up at a disco
04:04silent or otherwise
04:05makes much difference
04:06to the oil crisis.
04:07Totally.
04:08And it really reminds me
04:09of the clip
04:10that people were so scathing
04:12about a couple of weeks ago
04:14when MPs were invited
04:16to do strictly come dancing
04:17dancing in Portcullis House
04:19in Parliament
04:20before PMQs
04:22and that you know
04:24they were about to have
04:25this very serious debate
04:25about potentially getting involved
04:27in military action in Iran
04:28and then there's hundreds
04:30of MPs all doing
04:31like the cha-cha
04:32or whatever
04:33and actually
04:34they'd been invited
04:34weeks in advance
04:35and it was about
04:36doing exercise
04:37in your 60s
04:38perhaps Keir Starmer
04:39would actually get involved
04:41in that conversation also.
04:42Please tell me
04:42he wasn't doing
04:43the cha-cha
04:43in Portcullis House.
04:44The speaker was though
04:45various MPs were there
04:47and it was so interesting
04:48because it just kind of
04:49really divided the internet
04:51and essentially
04:52some people were saying
04:53this is just disgraceful
04:54this isn't serious
04:55and some people are saying
04:57come on
04:58this is like 10 minutes
04:59of their time
04:59and they're promoting
05:01other things
05:01that aren't just to do
05:02with doom and gloom.
05:03I mean look
05:04this is a well-worn path
05:05right?
05:05People getting cross
05:06about people
05:07doing things
05:08that aren't exactly
05:08in the lane
05:09of being a politician
05:10politicking
05:11so I think we had
05:12Nigel Farage
05:13Nigel Farage
05:15pasting himself
05:15in a suit
05:16claiming he was
05:17DJing Brexit
05:18Club Classics.
05:26Do you know what?
05:29When he said
05:29Brexit Classics
05:30I was really hoping
05:31it was this
05:32albeit extremely niche
05:33album of songs
05:34that were recorded
05:35about the ins and outs
05:37of the Brexit deal.
05:38What like actual
05:39new songs?
05:40They were remarkable
05:41my favourite was
05:42an absolute banger
05:44called Canada Plus Plus
05:45Oh my god
05:46that's really bringing
05:48back some PTSD feelings
05:50that's for sure
05:50but for anyone
05:51who was interested
05:52Nigel Farage
05:53was about to play
05:54Sex Bomb
05:55by Tom Jones
05:56I did not know
05:57that was a Brexit
05:58Club classic
05:59but it's very good
06:00to know.
06:01I guess
06:01an important reminder
06:03here as per the last
06:04three episodes
06:05of recording
06:06this podcast
06:06is the context
06:08in which all these
06:09things are happening
06:10and therefore
06:11the reasons why
06:12people can be
06:12feeling quite irked
06:14that MPs are busy
06:15showing they've got
06:15personalities
06:16and they've got
06:17other fun things
06:18going on in their lives
06:19and that is
06:19that the US-Iran war
06:21rumbles on
06:22and we've got
06:24an impending
06:25economic crisis
06:26if not an already
06:27ongoing one
06:28with the massive
06:30oil shock
06:30that is coming out
06:31of the blockade
06:32on the Strait of Hummers
06:34Keir Starmer
06:35has chaired
06:36another COBRA committee
06:37this week
06:38on particularly
06:38the economic impact
06:39of the whole thing
06:40so these are
06:41quite scary times
06:42for the country
06:43and you can see
06:45why people are
06:46sort of
06:47well you can see
06:48why people are
06:49reacting quite badly
06:50to some of this stuff
06:51and yet also
06:52as we would like
06:53to get into now
06:54these MPs
06:55are working really hard
06:56particularly ministers
06:57particularly the Prime Minister
06:58is it not right
06:59to be able to have
07:00a bit of a break
07:01from the coalface?
07:02Yeah I mean the backdrop
07:03of all of this
07:03is pretty frightening
07:04so this comes this week
07:05as an angry Trump
07:06has threatened
07:07to pull out of NATO
07:07and told the UK
07:08to go and get
07:09your own oil
07:10told us to go
07:11and get our own oil
07:11and that he won't
07:12help us anymore
07:15So when MPs do let their hair
07:17down a little bit
07:18it's generally met
07:19with one of two
07:20sort of critiques
07:22either people think
07:23super relatable
07:24so authentic
07:25yes I'd love to go
07:26to the pub with you
07:28or they kind of
07:29get everybody
07:29piling in on them
07:30saying they're out of touch
07:31saying it's really cringe
07:32saying it doesn't really
07:34make sense
07:35It's really
07:35I mean you have to have
07:36a bit of sympathy
07:37I would say
07:38it's really hard for them
07:40because like you say
07:40there's a completely fine line
07:42between looking like
07:42a complete prat
07:43and also looking like
07:45your authentic self
07:46and sometimes your
07:46complete authentic self
07:48is in fact a prat
07:49so that also doesn't
07:50work very often
07:51some politicians
07:52though can get away
07:53with kind of being
07:54their true selves
07:55I think that we've seen
07:57like good examples
07:57of this recently
07:58include those pictures
08:00those kind of candid
08:01not so this isn't
08:02self-promoting
08:03this is pictures
08:04that are
08:05long lens shots
08:06which obviously
08:06is not very nice
08:07and intrusive
08:08and all of these things
08:08but sometimes
08:09people look good
08:10on the back of that
08:11so if you think
08:11about Angela Rayner
08:12you know
08:13drinking a bucket
08:14of rose
08:14in an inflatable kayak
08:16wearing a dry robe
08:17off Brighton Beach
08:18I mean people
08:19looked at that
08:20and thought
08:20yeah tremendous
08:21she looks really fun
08:22and also
08:23she looks like
08:24she doesn't really care
08:25and she's having
08:25a great time
08:26and that is
08:26entirely relatable
08:28although it looked
08:29not great
08:30when she was then
08:31accused of not paying
08:32enough tax on her home
08:33I mean yeah
08:34other opinions
08:34are available
08:35about other things
08:36that she's done
08:37but I would still
08:38stand by
08:38the kayak
08:39bath of rose thing
08:40made her look good
08:41that was a positive
08:42and there was another
08:43Angela Rayner
08:44having a good time
08:44moment
08:45when she was partying
08:46with Denise Van Outen
08:47where was she
08:48in Ibiza
08:49in Ibiza
08:50and Denise Van Outen
08:51released this clip
08:52of Angela Rayner
08:52having a great old time
08:53in a DJ booth
09:06nice
09:09that's not a silent disco
09:12the slightly weird thing
09:13is she's wearing
09:14what looks to me
09:15like the stuff
09:15she wears in the commons
09:16she's in Ibiza
09:17but she's wearing
09:17like a little pencil dress
09:18a red Labour Party dress
09:20and a lanyard
09:22it's an odd look
09:23in a club
09:24respectfully
09:25do you remember
09:26when David Cameron
09:27was Prime Minister
09:28there used to be
09:28these awful stage shots
09:29of him and his wife
09:31enjoying a meal
09:32for two
09:33yes
09:33to try and then
09:34get everyone
09:35to just shove off
09:36and stop taking pictures
09:37of them in their
09:37wetsuits and things
09:38yeah
09:39I mean what a life
09:41oh my goodness
09:42I had no idea
09:42there was a lot
09:43there were so many
09:44for those at home
09:45we are
09:45Sam our producer
09:46they just keep coming
09:49a life in the public eye
09:51oh yeah
09:52there they are
09:52at a fish market
09:53pointing at a fish
09:54very good
09:55I think what has to be
09:56my favourite
09:57clip of all time
09:59which was Michael Gove
10:00while he was still
10:01I think a serving minister
10:02in 2021
10:04dancing in an
10:05Aberdeen nightclub
10:06and
10:07he obviously doesn't realise
10:09he's being filmed
10:10in this
10:10but in some ways
10:12the reaction is
10:12so much better for it
10:14because he is
10:15he's footloose
10:16and he's fancy
10:17free everyone
10:26also wearing a suit
10:28not a silent disco
10:29either
10:29and also wearing a suit
10:31wearing a suit
10:31and his glasses
10:32and it's just
10:33like I love
10:34one of my secret
10:35actually not
10:35it's not a secret
10:36I'm going to say it
10:37loud and proud
10:37is a regional nightclub
10:38and it's got
10:39this place
10:40has got laser pointers
10:41it's got smoke machines
10:43I mean
10:44a sticky floor
10:45I'm guessing
10:46and like not that many people
10:47and he's just
10:48he's throwing shapes
10:49with a bunch of youth
10:51who I'm not sure he knows
10:52but he's just
10:53he's just going for it
10:54it's not dad dancing guys
10:56it's like
10:56it's
10:57it's sort of
10:58techno gove
10:59and I love it
11:01and he
11:01I mean
11:01people basically were
11:03there was a lot of teasing
11:05about that
11:06at the time
11:08but again
11:09because
11:09it was not something
11:10that he sort of
11:11proactively
11:13posted
11:13unlike poor
11:14Salacrisi
11:15with her silent disco stuff
11:16it was sort of
11:17well
11:18people who wanted to
11:19divide it
11:19divided it
11:20and then a bit like
11:21Keir Starmer
11:21with his football
11:22last week
11:23other people thought
11:24that's actually kind of
11:25sweet
11:26but that's the thing
11:27isn't it
11:27is
11:28these things work
11:29you know
11:30whether they are
11:31deliberate
11:31and you're putting it out there
11:32to create an impression
11:33of yourself
11:34or whether you have
11:35somehow
11:35you know
11:36accidentally
11:36some footage of you
11:37being a real human
11:38has been released
11:39and let's not get into
11:40how accidental
11:41some of that might be
11:42but it works
11:43if it reminds people
11:44of who you actually are
11:46and it marries with
11:47who you are
11:48it's the authenticity of it
11:49which is a kind of
11:50much overused
11:51word in politics
11:52but I think
11:53one of the good things
11:54she says
11:55that has come out
11:56of all of the changes
11:57and all of the kind of
11:57slightly more
11:58you know
11:59ribald version
12:00of our politics
12:00that we're living in now
12:02is it does seem
12:03that people are able
12:03to be a bit more
12:04themselves
12:04if they want to be
12:06so you looked at
12:06those pictures
12:07as we saw
12:07of David Cameron
12:08and Samantha Cameron
12:09look so staged
12:11and so stilted now
12:12and she's hating it
12:13she's hating it
12:14it just looks like
12:15from a totally different time
12:16I just don't think
12:17people would do that anymore
12:18and whereas actually
12:19you know
12:20when you say
12:20what you like
12:21about Nigel Farage
12:22she likes his pie
12:22and his pint
12:23and his fag
12:24or whatever
12:24there is a space
12:26where politicians
12:27seem to be able
12:27to be
12:28in some sorts of ways
12:30at least
12:31actually be their
12:32their truer selves
12:33or be seen
12:34doing things
12:35which are much
12:35much more recognisable
12:36than normal
12:37yes the only
12:38challenge I'd put
12:39to that is
12:40I think some
12:41of this authenticity
12:42stuff really works
12:43if you have a very
12:44standalone
12:44authentic personality
12:46so you know
12:46Zach Polanski
12:47does like
12:48he was at a cool
12:49thing on the weekend
12:50where he was
12:51in Trafalgar Square
12:52doing a rally
12:52or Ed Davey
12:54does his stunts
12:55and exactly
12:57as you say
12:57Nigel Farage
12:58does his
12:59like I'm the guy
12:59you want to go
13:00for a pint with
13:01but it's actually
13:02really difficult
13:03if you're someone
13:04who is less
13:06personality
13:06driven
13:07you know
13:08there are actually
13:08plenty of boring
13:09politicians
13:09they're actually
13:10pretty good
13:10at their jobs
13:11I know boring
13:12is really not
13:12the worst thing
13:13do you remember
13:14do you remember
13:15when Gordon Brown
13:17there was an interview
13:18that he did
13:18I think it was
13:18either just before
13:19he became Prime Minister
13:20or just afterwards
13:21where it was one of
13:22those kind of
13:22day in the life
13:23things
13:23and he said
13:24that he was
13:24woken up
13:25by the Arctic
13:26monkeys
13:26on his iPod
13:29like it was
13:30technology
13:32not available
13:33to the rest
13:34of us
13:34it's just like
13:34what your iPod
13:35wakes you up
13:36with the Arctic
13:36monkeys does it
13:37yeah yeah yeah
13:38it's just completely
13:39unbelievable
13:40name five of their
13:40songs Gordon
13:41it's also like
13:43why did you do
13:44a terrible thing
13:44I mean I like
13:45the Arctic monkeys
13:45but I certainly
13:46wouldn't want them
13:46to wake me up
13:47yeah
13:47no I couldn't
13:48agree more
13:48and I think
13:50the thing I'm
13:51most interested in
13:52is that
13:54regardless of
13:55when you hear
13:55this we are
13:56currently going
13:56into Easter
13:58but I think
13:59this makes sense
14:00any time of year
14:01whenever MPs
14:01are going home
14:02for a break
14:03you think
14:03oh they get
14:04these long holidays
14:05it's just like
14:05my kids school
14:06holidays
14:07whatever
14:07it just isn't
14:08it's actually
14:09really action
14:10packed
14:10it's really
14:11tiring
14:11the job
14:11doesn't really
14:12stop
14:13so I actually
14:14messaged a
14:15former MP
14:15this morning
14:16to ask what
14:17a normal
14:18bank holiday
14:19weekend
14:20looked like
14:21for them
14:22and they
14:23basically said
14:24particularly this
14:25time of year
14:25it's one of the
14:26toughest
14:26because there
14:27were always
14:28local elections
14:28we've talked
14:29quite a lot
14:29about the ones
14:30coming up in May
14:31which happened
14:31to be a
14:32particularly big
14:32set
14:33particularly for
14:34the government
14:34but there were
14:35always some
14:36going on
14:36and you have
14:37to go and
14:37help your
14:38friends and
14:38neighbours
14:39who are going
14:40to have local
14:40elections
14:41wherever they
14:41are
14:42and because
14:43you tend
14:43to go to
14:44a church
14:45service
14:45you tend
14:46to go to
14:46you know
14:47there'll be
14:47something else
14:47going on
14:48it's bound
14:48to be a
14:48fate to
14:49open
14:49or
14:49exactly
14:50exactly
14:51Easter Bunny
14:52hunt
14:52to
14:52preside
14:53over
14:53or
14:53something
14:53right
14:54and mainly
14:55people are
14:55out and about
14:56so they will
14:56stop you
14:57and this person
14:59basically said
14:59that it's one of
15:00your most intense
15:01weekends for
15:02interacting with
15:03voters and
15:04getting what
15:05they called
15:05feedback
15:05which I feel
15:06is not
15:07necessarily the
15:08constructive
15:09criticism
15:09that some
15:11of us might
15:12think of it
15:13as so it's
15:13quite intense
15:14that way
15:14and then
15:14you know
15:15for ministers
15:16there's that
15:17and then of
15:18course on top
15:18of it all
15:19is your
15:19ministerial work
15:20to do
15:20and then
15:21for the
15:21prime minister
15:22you know
15:23even more
15:24you've got
15:24the MP stuff
15:26you've got
15:26your ministerial
15:27work to do
15:27you've got
15:28phone calls
15:28with President
15:29Trump
15:29and other
15:29world leaders
15:30and you've
15:31got you know
15:31various political
15:32tangles to be
15:33thinking about
15:34you have
15:34MPs texting you
15:35MPs calling you
15:36you've got your
15:37family who actually
15:37want to see you
15:38and spend some
15:38time with you
15:39sometimes
15:39you've got your
15:40mates who want
15:40some five-a-side
15:41to get your
15:43Mr. Roboto
15:43going but it's
15:44just it's
15:45incredibly intense
15:46and to think
15:47that having a
15:48parliamentary recess
15:49means something
15:50restful
15:50you know
15:52from the very
15:53political side
15:53for me it's
15:54also a great
15:54opportunity for
15:55people who want
15:56to cause you
15:56problems to
15:57organise themselves
15:58on WhatsApp
15:58but it is
15:59important
15:59all of that
16:00in mind
16:01it is important
16:01that politicians
16:02can get a break
16:03you and I have
16:04both seen what
16:04happens when people
16:05just get completely
16:06burnt out
16:07and you do
16:08all of that
16:09would drive
16:09even the most
16:10sane person
16:11entirely mad
16:12and add to that
16:13that you can't
16:13have a break
16:14and add to that
16:14that actually
16:15everywhere you go
16:16there might be
16:16somebody
16:17these days for
16:18everyone
16:18someone with
16:18a phone
16:19just taking
16:19pictures of
16:20you
16:20you have to be
16:21this totally
16:22curated person
16:23the whole time
16:24I think if you
16:25think about
16:26the other thing
16:26that we sort of
16:27collectively force
16:28our politicians
16:28to do is to
16:29pretend to be
16:29people that
16:30they're not
16:31so Keir Starmer
16:33playing football
16:33absolutely fine
16:34Keir Starmer
16:35really does love
16:36football
16:36I've been to the
16:37football with
16:38Keir Starmer
16:38in fact
16:40he's not
16:41joking about it
16:42he's really
16:43committed to it
16:44and really likes
16:44doing it
16:44likes playing
16:45and watching it
16:46fine
16:47but we sort
16:47of insist
16:48that all male
16:48politicians
16:49have to like
16:50football
16:50I don't know
16:51if you remember
16:51David Cameron
16:52getting his own
16:53football team
16:54wrong
16:55which was
16:56excruciating
16:56and there's a
16:57thing where
16:57you're sort of
16:58not allowed
16:58to be
16:59there's certain
16:59things that you
16:59have to do
17:00if you're a
17:01politician
17:01and one of
17:01them
17:02particularly if
17:02you're a man
17:03is to like
17:03football
17:04and that kind
17:05of itself
17:06all these things
17:06that we ladle
17:07on people
17:07causes a problem
17:08I remember
17:09when I spent
17:10lots of my
17:10working life
17:11working in
17:11DCMS
17:12which is the
17:12Department for
17:13Culture,
17:13Medium and
17:14Sport
17:14and what
17:15those ministers
17:16do with their
17:17holidays and
17:17with their
17:18free time
17:18is not just
17:19crawled over
17:20like normal
17:20politicians
17:21but it's also
17:22crawled over
17:22by the people
17:24in the sectors
17:25that the department
17:25sponsors
17:26and they keep
17:27a really close
17:27eye on what
17:28the ministers
17:28do
17:28I remember
17:29saying to
17:29Tessa Jowell
17:30who was the
17:30then Secretary
17:31of State for
17:31Culture,
17:32Medium and
17:32Sport
17:32that you know
17:33we had looked
17:34across all the
17:34stuff she'd been
17:35doing and we
17:35said look
17:36there's a bit
17:36too much
17:37going to
17:38the theatre
17:38a bit too
17:39much going
17:39to the opera
17:40a bit too
17:40much going
17:41to all these
17:41heritage things
17:42and she was
17:42like hang on
17:43that's what I
17:44actually like
17:44that's what I
17:45actually like
17:46doing but
17:47and I do
17:47like other
17:48things as well
17:49she says even
17:50this many years
17:51later worrying
17:51about upsetting
17:52someone but
17:52there is a
17:53thing where
17:53every single
17:54bit of your
17:54waking life
17:55somebody's going
17:56to be making
17:56a judgement
17:56in some way
17:58about whether
17:58you are favouring
17:59these people
17:59or those people
18:00or whether
18:01you really care
18:02about something
18:03you said you
18:03care about
18:04it's hard
18:04so you're
18:05saying it's
18:05quite possible
18:06that Lisa
18:06and Andy
18:06who's the
18:07current
18:07Secretary of
18:08State for
18:08Culture and
18:08Media and
18:09Sport will
18:09be sort of
18:09dragging her
18:10whole family
18:10around museums
18:11on Monday
18:12to make up
18:13time
18:14because she's
18:14got to quickly
18:14before the
18:15quarter ends
18:16or before you
18:17know the next
18:17reporting cycle
18:18have made sure
18:19she's gone to
18:19the Lowry Centre
18:21in Salford
18:21because she
18:22hasn't been
18:22since she was
18:23Secretary of
18:23State or
18:23something
18:24there is
18:24like an
18:25exhausting
18:25tick list
18:26of what you
18:26need to do
18:27and there's
18:27also a kind
18:28of actually
18:29if you are
18:29a politician
18:30who does
18:30really like
18:31something
18:31you and I
18:32worked for
18:33Theresa May
18:33and I don't
18:34know if you
18:34remember in
18:34the last week
18:35of her
18:35premiership
18:36England had
18:36just won
18:37the Cricket
18:37World Cup
18:38the 2020
18:40and there
18:41was a big
18:41conversation
18:42I remember
18:42having a big
18:42argument with
18:43the political
18:43team who
18:44at the time
18:45were saying
18:45well you know
18:46it's going to
18:47look really
18:47bad if she's
18:48got the
18:49England team
18:50here when
18:50she's on her
18:50way out
18:51and it just
18:51looks so
18:52self-indulgent
18:53and it's one
18:53of those really
18:54weird topsy-tervy
18:55situations that
18:55you find yourself
18:56as a civil
18:56servant saying
18:57hang on a
18:57second
18:58give the woman
18:59a break
18:59like surely
19:01in her last
19:02week can't we
19:02give her the
19:03gift of
19:04here's the
19:05England
19:05cricketers in
19:06your garden
19:06because they're
19:07going to love
19:07that they're
19:08going to have
19:08a great time
19:09we're going to
19:09have a great
19:09time
19:10so not to
19:10make this
19:10episode all
19:11about Theresa
19:11May but I
19:12think a good
19:12example of
19:13politicians
19:13suffering burnout
19:14and needing
19:15breaks is the
19:162018 party
19:17conference speech
19:18where she do
19:19you remember
19:19she coughed
19:20and actually
19:20there was a
19:21protester and
19:21someone came
19:22on stage and
19:23there were
19:23things that
19:24that's when
19:24the guy came
19:24up with a
19:25P45
19:26and some of
19:27the staging
19:27came down
19:28but the real
19:29problem was she
19:30was exhausted
19:30and her throat
19:32was going
19:32and the
19:34problem was
19:34is that because
19:35there was so
19:35much pressure
19:36from MPs
19:36already coming
19:37after her
19:37she didn't
19:38really get to
19:39have even a
19:40small opportunity
19:40to rest during
19:41that conference
19:42period when
19:43actually she
19:44should have not
19:44gone to some of
19:45the events not
19:45shaking hands
19:46with people and
19:46then been able
19:47to deliver her
19:48speech and it's
19:49a bit like
19:50there's a piece of
19:52sports psychology
19:52for tennis players
19:54where between
19:55games they sit
19:56with a towel
19:56over their head
19:57and even just
19:58have a minute's
19:58break and think
19:59about something
20:00completely different
20:00she didn't get
20:01a towel
20:01she didn't get
20:02to put a towel
20:03over her head
20:04her life could
20:05have been different
20:06if she hadn't
20:06but you know
20:07that's another
20:07really interesting
20:08I definitely
20:09in my experience
20:09that was a tension
20:10between the
20:11political team
20:11and the civil
20:12service team
20:12if you're working
20:13very closely
20:14for a minister
20:14whether it's
20:15the prime minister
20:15or the secretary
20:16of state
20:16in a department
20:18it will be the
20:18political team
20:19usually who have
20:20a much shorter
20:21time horizon
20:21for everything
20:22and they do
20:22and the politics
20:23is much more urgent
20:24and it feels
20:25really important
20:25that the person
20:26makes that speech
20:27and goes to that
20:27fundraiser
20:28and does the thing
20:29now
20:30and quite often
20:30you'd find yourself
20:31if you're on the
20:32civil service side
20:33saying hang on a
20:33second no
20:34they definitely
20:35need a break
20:36like I'm taking
20:36away all of this
20:37work from the
20:38department
20:38we're going to
20:39structure things
20:40so there's
20:40definitely some
20:41down time
20:42that isn't an
20:42opportunity for you
20:43guys to just
20:44fill all of that
20:45up because
20:45that's the other
20:46thing that happens
20:47is that politicians
20:47get just dragged
20:48into you've got to
20:50do this for this
20:50the party
20:51you've got to do
20:51this for the
20:52constituency
20:52you've got to
20:53do this for
20:53whatever
20:54and then
20:54yeah it's no
20:55surprise people
20:56go a bit crazy
20:56with no breaks
20:57yeah and
20:58actually in
20:59our time
20:59we unfortunately
21:00experienced people
21:01really suffer
21:02burnout very badly
21:03and ended up
21:04stepping away
21:05it's not
21:05it's not easy
21:07it's not an easy
21:08thing to work in
21:09politics anyway
21:10and you have to
21:10really look after
21:11yourselves
21:11I do think
21:12there is this
21:12added pressure
21:13that has come
21:14the last few
21:14years
21:15which is really
21:16to your point
21:17that we want
21:18our politicians
21:18to be authentic
21:19and interesting
21:19and have their
21:20own personalities
21:21but we also
21:22somehow want
21:23them to be
21:25workhorse
21:26automatons
21:26who are doing
21:28everything at once
21:29and actually
21:29we don't really
21:30want them to have
21:31personalities
21:31we just want
21:32them to work
21:32incredibly hard
21:33and there's
21:34not a massive
21:35pick a lane
21:35right exactly
21:36there's not a
21:37massive amount
21:38of gear
21:40either way
21:40so people
21:41the big criticism
21:42of Keir Starmer
21:42is that
21:43people don't
21:44connect with him
21:45and yet
21:46this happened
21:47to Rishi Sunak
21:48a little bit too
21:49but then on the
21:49other hand
21:50more let's say
21:51boisterous politicians
21:52are not serious
21:55enough
21:55Rishi Sunak
21:56also quite a
21:56serious football
21:57fan actually
21:58is that right
21:58yeah
21:59there you go
21:59how very interesting
22:02and cricket
22:03and cricket
22:04but I guess
22:05the point is
22:06is that
22:06for me anyway
22:08I think there's
22:09a big difference
22:10between
22:10people being
22:11able to let
22:11a bit of
22:12steam off
22:12in their own
22:13time
22:13dance in your
22:13kitchen
22:14or whatever
22:14you have to
22:15do
22:15and I'm
22:15really sorry
22:16if you are
22:17photographed
22:17or filmed
22:18doing that
22:18without your
22:19knowledge
22:20I think the
22:21slightly trickier
22:22thing is
22:23how you decide
22:24to present
22:24yourself
22:26very authentically
22:28through your own
22:29choices
22:29and that is
22:31slightly different
22:31and needs more
22:32thinking about
22:32so we're going
22:33to come on
22:33in a moment
22:34to talk about
22:34what we'll be
22:35advising in this
22:36complicated
22:36you can't win
22:37situation
22:39it's also
22:39worth saying
22:40that of course
22:40for what
22:41politicians are
22:42doing right
22:42now
22:42this is against
22:43the backdrop
22:44of a really
22:45uncertain
22:45international
22:46situation
22:46there's a war
22:47in the Middle
22:48East
22:48we don't know
22:49what the
22:49consequences
22:49of that
22:50are going
22:50to be
22:50and actually
22:51neither do
22:51the politicians
22:52when they think
22:53it's like
22:53absolutely fine
22:54to be recording
22:55and then sending
22:56out this tweet
22:56of them
22:57they don't know
22:57what kind of
22:58world that is
22:59literally landing
22:59in
23:00and that
23:00you know
23:01may well be
23:01colouring
23:02some of the
23:02decision making
23:05so we've
23:06discussed
23:06how people
23:08can let off
23:08steam
23:08how MPs
23:09would like
23:09to
23:10and why
23:11it's actually
23:11really difficult
23:12for them
23:12to either
23:13be themselves
23:13or pretend
23:14to be something
23:14they aren't
23:15really
23:16but there are
23:16essentially
23:16no breaks
23:17it's ironic
23:18that in the
23:18week where
23:19all these
23:19Kit Kats
23:20have been
23:20stolen
23:20there were
23:21no breaks
23:21zero breaks
23:22none of those
23:23Kit Kats
23:23are coming
23:24they can't live
23:24like the rest
23:25of us
23:25and actually
23:26when they try
23:27and show
23:28a little bit
23:28of personality
23:29as discussed
23:30it goes one
23:31of two ways
23:31either people
23:32think yeah
23:32cool
23:32so authentic
23:33or they
23:34think
23:34we're about
23:35to have
23:35an even
23:36bigger
23:38income
23:38crisis
23:39than we've
23:39already got
23:39be serious
23:40yeah I mean
23:41you know
23:41next week
23:42politicians
23:42can't win
23:43I mean
23:43there is a
23:44bit of
23:44it's just
23:45impossible
23:45having said
23:46that I think
23:47that I don't
23:48know let's
23:48see if we do
23:49agree
23:49I'm very
23:50clearly of the
23:51view that the
23:51one thing that
23:52you have to
23:52be is your
23:53actual self
23:54and if your
23:55actual self
23:55is super
23:56boring and
23:57doesn't like
23:58football
23:59always wears a
23:59suit
24:00is much happier
24:01reading you
24:02know back
24:03issues of the
24:03new statesman
24:04or whatever
24:04else you're
24:05doing just
24:05embrace that
24:06love be
24:07be that and
24:08okay that's
24:09might be a bit
24:09weird and nerdy
24:10and people might
24:11not like it but
24:12they're sure as
24:12hell gonna like
24:13that better than
24:14you somehow
24:14pretending that
24:15you're down the
24:16pub with the
24:17lads having a
24:18great time and
24:18have the first
24:19idea about what's
24:20going on in
24:20particular football
24:21game or that
24:22you're really
24:23clued up on
24:24modern culture in
24:25any way shape or
24:26form I think just
24:26don't pretend and
24:27it's the
24:28inauthenticity
24:29which comes
24:29like screaming
24:31through and
24:32really does
24:32yeah I can't
24:33think of anybody
24:34who's managed to
24:35pull that off to
24:36be honest
24:36yeah I think
24:37that's fair the
24:38only the only
24:39thing I would
24:41say in response
24:41is that I think
24:42that's how it
24:42should be I
24:43think people
24:44should be
24:44themselves but
24:46there is a
24:47very unhelpful
24:48pressure to be a
24:49really good media
24:50performer and to
24:51be very good at
24:53making the MPs in
24:55a party like
24:55you because you
24:57will know when
24:58their leadership
24:58contest will come
24:59and so on and
25:00that that basic
25:01does require being
25:02quite fake and I
25:04don't think there
25:05are many politicians
25:06actually who are
25:07completely different
25:08behind the scenes
25:09to how they come
25:11across on
25:12television and for
25:14most of them that's
25:14actually a massive
25:15problem but I do
25:18really are like this
25:19all the time guys
25:20right but I think
25:20the bigger challenge
25:21comes for their
25:21teams actually I
25:22think this goes for
25:23burnout and I think
25:24this goes for
25:25authenticity too
25:27in terms of
25:28burnout their team
25:29should be thinking
25:30really carefully about
25:31how they manage
25:32their time and that
25:32is actually something
25:33in their gift you
25:36can put time aside
25:37for exercise and
25:38for family time and
25:40you know it's not
25:41quite like the in
25:41the US unfortunately
25:42where there's a
25:44White House doctor
25:44and so on the
25:45the Prime Minister
25:46has a GP and a
25:47dentist but you
25:48know you actually
25:49need to set aside
25:50time for all those
25:50health amenities that
25:51are really important
25:52you're absolutely
25:53right if I think
25:54back to particularly
25:55Secretary of State
25:56and departments
25:57that the time when
25:58you're really busy
25:59and you take out
26:01the diary all of
26:02the things which
26:02are that or we
26:04did this with
26:04number 10 you
26:05always there's
26:06always just this
26:07one last push to
26:08get over and then
26:09it's going to be
26:09fine and you
26:11rue the day because
26:12you've taken out
26:13six months of
26:14dental appointments
26:15and so the poor
26:16sod needs root
26:17canal and you've
26:17taken out six
26:19months of gym time
26:20and so they've got
26:21fat and unhappy
26:22and they have to
26:23go shopping now
26:23because their
26:24clothes don't fit
26:24whatever it is
26:25it's always
26:26always always
26:26and it's quite
26:27hard because you
26:28have to be so
26:29disciplined to
26:29it feels a bit
26:31selfish sometimes
26:31and it feels it's
26:32hard on the
26:33principal themselves
26:34yeah and that's
26:35why it's so hard
26:35to be married to
26:36one too because
26:37you know per
26:38Samantha Cameron
26:38looking appalled
26:39in those photos
26:40of her on holiday
26:41you know if you're
26:42someone's spouse
26:43constantly being told
26:44we've just got one
26:45more push to get
26:46this thing done
26:46then I promise I'll
26:48be home for dinner
26:48oh no I promise
26:49tomorrow I promise
26:50on the weekend
26:51it's like really
26:52disappointing and
26:53painful but you
26:54have to set you
26:55know if you look
26:55at really excellent
26:57CEOs in like the
26:58tech sector for
26:58example they've got
26:59really really strict
27:01routines and you
27:03have to have some
27:03flexibility in
27:04politics but if you
27:05can build in as
27:05much as you can
27:06and if you as the
27:08team can protect
27:10your principal in
27:12that it's really
27:12important because it's
27:13really hard for them
27:13to say no to stuff
27:15actually you want them
27:16to always look nice
27:17and affable and
27:19proactive and you
27:20have to be bad
27:21cop a lot
27:22you're the person
27:22that says no yes
27:23and yet again it's
27:24quite often about
27:24saving these people
27:25from themselves
27:26so most of the time
27:28if you're at work
27:28there's a whole load
27:29of people you can go
27:30to if you feel like
27:31you're getting burnt
27:31out or there's you
27:33know need a break or
27:34you're struggling
27:34somehow but it
27:35doesn't it doesn't
27:36work like that with
27:36MPs right
27:37no it does not
27:39so within parliament
27:40MPs are individual
27:41employers so they have
27:42their own team so
27:43parliament is weird
27:44because it's like 600
27:46little businesses all
27:47running at once and
27:48they have their own
27:49individual employees
27:50and teams and
27:52obviously they get
27:53a bit more support
27:53if they become
27:54ministers because
27:55they've got a
27:55ministerial team in
27:56the department and
27:57and so on to help
27:58them but they
27:59basically rely on
28:00whatever system the
28:01party has and for
28:03the whips to perhaps
28:04help them they might
28:05be able to slip
28:07them if government
28:08if parliament's
28:09sitting slipping
28:10means you basically
28:10don't have to
28:11intend votes and
28:12so if you really do
28:13need some time out
28:14that allows you to
28:15probably take a break
28:15exactly the slight
28:17problem is it's a
28:18bit like anyone
28:18needing time off
28:22people do sort of
28:23remember and it's
28:25not that you know
28:26it doesn't go down
28:27on your record or
28:27something but it
28:28it's a it's a little
28:29flag to think we need
28:30to look after this
28:31person are they
28:32going you know are
28:33they really going to
28:34be able to take on
28:35more should a
28:35reshuffle
28:36that's also so I
28:37mean politics is
28:37really stuck in the
28:38dark ages on lots of
28:39things and this is
28:40another good example
28:41where the kind of
28:42mindset that are
28:43applied to people who
28:44might need a bit of
28:44a break is a bit
28:45like the workplace
28:4630 years ago or
28:47something like how
28:48dare you admit it
28:48that's so weak
28:49therefore you're weak
28:50and and you know if
28:51you need help then
28:52that sounds like a
28:53you problem not on
28:54us problem yeah
28:54why aren't you just
28:55drinking it like a
28:56like a normal person
28:58but yeah so it is it
29:00is quite bleak in that
29:01sense I think there's
29:03been little
29:04modernization since but
29:05I still you know there
29:06are there are mental
29:07health services within
29:08parliament and so on
29:09but you know it's it's
29:11very you make
29:13yourself very
29:14vulnerable to go
29:16into that kind of
29:17thing and I don't
29:19think the MPs are
29:20massively incentivized
29:21to go and access
29:23these services and
29:24often you find out
29:25about it much later
29:27on and sometimes
29:30it's just when
29:30they're ready to talk
29:32about it but in
29:33general it's a real
29:34luck of the draw or
29:35good foresight on
29:37who they've hired and
29:38who's doing a really
29:39good job of looking
29:40after them and
29:41managing their time
29:41and you know home
29:43situations family
29:44situations where their
29:46constituency is it's a
29:47completely different
29:47situation if you're
29:48like popping up to
29:50North London because
29:51that's where your
29:52constituency is rather
29:53than Orkney or
29:54something which is a
29:54flight away.
29:55That's such a massive
29:56thing isn't it you get
29:57to sleep in your own
29:57bed and I know that's
29:59not of course of course
30:00you don't because so
30:01many constituencies are
30:02not in the south
30:03east of England nor
30:04should they be but
30:04it's really that is
30:06really hard.
30:07Yeah I think that's
30:07true and then on the
30:08other bit just on the
30:10authentic point
30:11obviously there is a
30:12whole media team
30:12behind quite a lot of
30:13politicians not all of
30:14them to think about
30:16how they do their
30:16media and actually I
30:17think it's a mistake
30:19sometimes so we were
30:22speaking off air about
30:23Jess Phillips and her
30:24Instagram account and
30:25it's really natural and
30:26it's just her posting
30:27the odd thing like can't
30:28wait to see my friends
30:29or here I'm having my
30:30hair cut and sometimes
30:32it's about work but
30:33sometimes it's just
30:33kind of her having a
30:35great time.
30:35But it's also
30:35consistent so she is
30:37consistently who she
30:38has been at least to
30:40how she comes across
30:41in social media for
30:42years and years and
30:42years and also she
30:44shows up and she's
30:45there all the time so
30:46the other weird thing
30:47that happens at the
30:48moment particularly in
30:49the Labour Party when
30:49there's leadership
30:50speculation etc is
30:52suddenly these people
30:53pop up and they start
30:54posting themselves being
30:55natural all the time.
30:57Do you remember when
30:57I can't remember which
30:58of the many Conservative
30:59Leadership Party things
31:00it was where we
31:01suddenly saw into
31:02everyone's kitchens all
31:03the time there's so
31:03many Sunday supplement
31:04kitchens.
31:05Yes and like was it
31:06James Brokenshire who
31:07had two ovens.
31:09Lovely James Brokenshire.
31:09You're so lovely but
31:10what are you are you
31:11like some master chef
31:12what's going on?
31:13He actually was a
31:13really excellent baker.
31:14Oh well there we go
31:14fair enough I take that
31:15back but I do think
31:17there is something to
31:17be said for just
31:19communicating the way
31:20you want to and we've
31:20we've talked about this
31:21quite often but you
31:23know for Keir Starmer
31:24to have a TikTok
31:24account and now a
31:25sub stack and all
31:26these other many
31:27outputs that he has to
31:28do and you think you
31:29just seem a guy who
31:30would be much happier
31:31on LinkedIn just
31:34endorsing people for
31:35like Spanish and stuff
31:36but the only thing
31:37I feel a bit on LinkedIn
31:38I don't think anyone's
31:39endorsed me that.
31:40That's why I know it's
31:41not for me and I know
31:42it's for him because he
31:43and I I don't think
31:44would move in necessarily
31:45the same circles but I
31:47think a lot of this is
31:49down to people's teams
31:50and often you can see
31:51some of those well as
31:52you say supplement
31:53weekend pieces where
31:55it's like get to know
31:55the real me.
31:57Sometimes don't I'm
31:58fine without the real
31:58them.
31:59Exactly exactly and
32:01and actually sometimes
32:02it's much more charming
32:03getting to know the real
32:03world where you have no
32:04idea I'm looking as
32:06per the football videos
32:07and so on.
32:08I think it's just nicer
32:10and better and it just
32:12feels less false.
32:13I'm not saying he's
32:14still brimming with
32:15personality but that
32:17does at least seem to
32:18be him and he seems
32:19I don't think he's
32:20running with ease he's
32:21not gazelle like but he
32:23does seem to be quite
32:23comfortable and having a
32:24good time.
32:25Yeah and I think that's
32:26what we're saying isn't
32:27it which is you know
32:28carry on doing the
32:29things that are you and
32:30that you are doing.
32:32do slightly less of
32:33the forcing yourself
32:34into a box that you
32:35don't particularly
32:35belong in and
32:37everybody sort of needs
32:38to bear in mind that
32:39they're not in charge
32:40anymore of how their
32:41face is presented to
32:42the public because
32:43people are going to be
32:44filming you or do
32:45whatever and think
32:46possibly a bit more
32:48judiciously thinking
32:49about some of the
32:50periodic bits of
32:51self-promotion and
32:52dancing about in a
32:53silent disco for
32:54example that like
32:55people are going to
32:56judge people are going
32:57to criticise people are
32:57going to question people
32:58are going to want to
32:59know why have you
32:59why have you suddenly
33:00decided present this
33:01face into the world and
33:03it needs a bit more
33:03thought and care.
33:04Thank you for listening
33:05to today's episode
33:06remember to follow the
33:07podcast on your podcast
33:08player and leave us a
33:09five-star review.
33:10And you can keep up
33:11with all the best bits
33:12of the podcast at
33:13Instagram at
33:14intheroom.pod which
33:16this week features all
33:17the clips of the
33:18politicians we were
33:19talking about partying.
33:20This podcast is part
33:21of the Independent
33:22Podcast Network and
33:23produced in association
33:24with Next Chapter
33:25Studios.
33:26The executive
33:26producers are
33:27Carrie Rose and
33:28Olivia Foster and
33:29the producer is
33:30Sam Durham.
33:31And a special
33:32mention to Maya
33:32Anushka and our
33:33video editor
33:34Vali Raza.
33:35Thanks for listening
33:35and we'll see you
33:36next week.
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