- 4 minutes ago
Seth and Sean discuss the reactions to the Texans' trades yesterday being all over the place, and assess Adam Schein's take that Texans fans should be mad about them.
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00:00I felt like yesterday was the most exciting first day of free agency ever.
00:03It's not even the first day of free agency! We're a week away!
00:07I know, I know, I know, I know.
00:09Yeah, you're right. It was. It was as exciting as the first day of free agency.
00:12And this is, it's interesting, because I felt like when all these trades, all these trades,
00:17when these two trades went down, first Titus Howard traded to the Browns for fifth round pick,
00:22and then David Montgomery, the Texans, trade four.
00:26They give up what was initially reported as a fifth round pick, ends up being a late fourth round pick,
00:31a seventh round pick, and juice Scruggs.
00:33And, gee, they threw a little juiceroo in there, yeah.
00:36Less than a seventh round pick, currently, his current set.
00:41Deflation has hit him hard, all right?
00:42Yes, yeah, yes.
00:44We've actually, I think what happened with the Texans is they finally, last year was the last year
00:49they could write off any depreciation on him.
00:51Yeah.
00:52So they just said goodbye, yeah.
00:53Yeah, so it's all over the place when it comes to how the rest of the country
01:01or the rest of sports media has treated this.
01:05In the Montgomery trade especially, I've seen an A, a B, a C, and a D graded to the Texans
01:12on the Montgomery trade.
01:14It really is.
01:15And I think that in and of itself is fair given that running back is such a dicey position.
01:23As guys get older, from year to year, how much is a running back really worth?
01:29And also people asking, all right, great, well, who's he going to run behind?
01:34You just traded away your best offensive lineman.
01:38Everything is fair and accurate, but there's also a lot of reasons that an A is fair and
01:43accurate.
01:44And a lot of those grades really depend on what do the Texans do from here.
01:48Yes.
01:48Between now and the end of the draft, and maybe even a few days after the draft, when some
01:53teams realize, okay, we drafted a first-round offensive lineman, we've got this expendable
01:58veteran.
01:58So, I'd love to give it a hard cutoff date of the draft, but really, between now and
02:04training camp, what do the Texans do to actually give some support to not just T.J. Stroud,
02:10but also David Montgomery and Woody Marks?
02:12Yeah, this is a chain of events, and we're only on the second chain, only on the second
02:16link.
02:16You know what I mean?
02:17Yeah.
02:17Even yesterday, when you and I were talking about the Titus Howard trade, which came down
02:22right before 7 o'clock, literally as I was teasing what we were going to talk about
02:27at 7, is when the push notification came through from Ian Rapoport about the Texans trading
02:33Titus Howard to the Browns for a fifth-round pick, and then the Browns extending him for
02:37three more years at $63 million over three years, so $21 million a year.
02:43And so, that came down right before 7 o'clock, and our first gut reaction to that was, well,
02:52there's other moves coming that might be directly tied to this, to the point where
02:58I felt that the fact that they were getting a fifth-round pick could have meant that there
03:04was a David Montgomery trade coming, because the Lions had been very forthright about a
03:10fifth being the price tag to acquire David Montgomery.
03:14And even the first report from Adam Schefter was that it was a fifth-round pick, and then
03:18I saw Texans cap post yesterday that it was initially a fifth-round pick for David Montgomery,
03:24and somebody swooped in at the last minute, and that's why the Texans ended up having
03:28to give up a fourth, a seventh, and juice Scruggs.
03:31So, I think we're at step two of what is a plan that's on a whiteboard in the building
03:36over at NRG Stadium that has a bunch of steps to it.
03:40And I think, too, Seth, a bunch of moves that the Texans have a pretty good idea as to where
03:46they stand on them, whether it's free agency or how they've evaluated certain guys off of
03:50the combine last week.
03:51You know, and I think this, when it comes to the way Nick operates, we've seen in certain
03:56instances, including on renegotiations of current players on the team and when they draft players,
04:04Nick tries to get a feel for where everything is headed, where the market is headed, and
04:08get out in front of it so you can have some certainty and you can make decisions based on
04:13what you already know.
04:14So, if there's one thing we know about the running back market, it's volatile from year
04:19to year, and it does look like there's going to be a market for running backs this year
04:26that teams are interested in.
04:27It's not going to be like three years ago when running backs were just sitting out there
04:31forever, and the going rate's probably going to be $8 million plus per year for running
04:36backs.
04:37And I think Nick probably looked at this as an opportunity where they had multiple running
04:41backs identified, and he had no clue really how pricey the market could get.
04:48So, if he sees a guy he likes and has a conversation with Detroit, and we can lock that up
04:53now and
04:53then focus our attention on the offensive line or tight end or whatever else that they need
04:58to really get hemmed up before the draft, this puts them in a position to do that.
05:02And it was going to, so, you know, it's funny because it's a fourth, a late fourth, and a
05:10seventh round pick.
05:11So, let's call it a fourth round pick.
05:12You know, let's call it a mid or a high fourth round pick.
05:14Seventh is next year, we should point that out, 2027.
05:17Let's call it a fourth round pick, you know, give or take, depending on how everything shakes
05:21out.
05:22But it's still, to me, not an inordinately pricey trade for a guy that still has a lot
05:28of tread on his tires.
05:30And I think the perception was, because David Montgomery didn't get as much usage this year,
05:36that, oh, yep, boy, they must, he lost his luster in Detroit and they don't like him
05:40anymore, it's more that Jameer Gibbs is just, he's on a different level.
05:44He's a different caliber of player right now.
05:46They leaned into the hot hand in Jameer Gibbs and the guy that's going to be their future.
05:51And, but I still think, I still very much think that Montgomery has tread on his tires.
05:56And it's, it's always dicey with running backs because they get injured, they get old.
06:00But I'm, I'm cool with the value as long as they get an offensive line for him to run.
06:04Right, right, right.
06:05Yeah.
06:06He turns, David Montgomery, just for, just for, for, you know, just to set, you know,
06:10sort of the basis here, he turns 29 in June.
06:14So that is something, I mean, we shouldn't ignore because we brought it up last week.
06:18The 28 is sort of that age for running backs where things can start to fall off a little
06:24bit.
06:25His usage, the way they used him in Detroit makes me optimistic that to your point, there's
06:29still plenty of tread on the tire.
06:31He's going to be their lead back, period.
06:33Yeah.
06:33He's going to be their lead back.
06:34And so they're, so they're out of the Kenneth Walker market.
06:37There's not going to be a trade for Brees Hall.
06:39David Montgomery is the guy.
06:40I still think they might draft somebody with a, with a decent pick, but David Montgomery
06:45is the guy now he's what Joe Mixon was two years ago.
06:47And I guess, um, I don't, I don't know if I have to say there's a lead guy.
06:51I mean, he's your first and second down guy, first and foremost, if you look at Detroit
06:55over the last couple of years, and again, Jameer Gibbs is a, the ceiling on Jameer Gibbs is
07:00probably way higher than what it is for Woody Marks.
07:02I like Woody Marks, but if you look at the way Detroit used both of those guys before
07:07this year, you would look at, you could look at either of those guys stats and say, oh,
07:12he's the lead back.
07:13Their usage was pretty even and they were heavily used both in the run and pass game.
07:18So yeah, I think Montgomery is the guy you look to as your workhorse bell cow, but he
07:23hasn't been getting 20 carries a game consistently in his career.
07:28Which is good.
07:29Right, right.
07:30Texans.
07:30Yeah.
07:30Yeah.
07:31And I don't think, I don't think that he's going to be agitated if he's getting 15 or fewer
07:35carries per game.
07:37No, it's, you know, as long as they're still using him and cause they were, they were very
07:41effective Detroit, obviously for a long time doing that.
07:44So what do people think about these deals that Texans made yesterday?
07:47And if you want to weigh in on the base power text line, 713-572-4610 early here, feel
07:53free to, to do that.
07:55This was probably the harshest criticism I saw from anybody nationally about this, about
08:02the trades.
08:03This was Adam shine of serious XM yesterday saying Texan fans should be angry, should be
08:10pissed about the sequence of events yesterday.
08:14I think the Texans are completely out of their minds here.
08:18And this makes no sense.
08:20Like if I'm a fan of the Houston Texans, I'm wondering what the hell is going on.
08:24So they just traded in essence, Howard for Montgomery.
08:29They just traded their best offensive lineman for a backup running back.
08:34That's what Montgomery is.
08:36And you know, I like Montgomery.
08:38I don't love Montgomery.
08:39I have said that consistently.
08:41This is my take on Montgomery in Chicago, my take on Montgomery in Detroit, my take
08:44on Montgomery now.
08:46The Texans didn't need David Montgomery.
08:48They needed Kenneth Walker.
08:50They needed Travis Etienne.
08:52That's who they needed.
08:53So why would you take yourself out of that market perhaps?
08:58Are you now going to spend $12 billion a year on Kenneth Walker?
09:02We just got David Montgomery.
09:05I don't know what the hell they're doing.
09:06Boy, if I'm a Texans fan, I'm pissed here.
09:11Okay.
09:11This is where labels come into play here.
09:14This is where the label of Titus Howard, best offensive lineman on the Texans.
09:19Yeah.
09:20Yeah.
09:20Now it's a relative term.
09:23It's a relative term.
09:24And if you think about this offense and what this offense wants to be, they talked a lot
09:30about being a tough and physical offense.
09:33Downhill.
09:34Yes.
09:35Titus Howard is a better pass blocker than he is a run blocker.
09:38He is a big physical.
09:39He's a big guy.
09:40And I liked when he would go down to guard sometimes, not because he's an incredibly physical
09:44blocker, but just in having that mass on the inside, having an athletic player who has
09:49mass.
09:49There's value in that in the running game, and I think it did help at times.
09:54But he's not a masher.
09:56And I think in trying to create more of a swarm-like effect on the offense, they want
10:03mashers.
10:04And they want guys maybe that don't cost as much as $22 million per year that are better
10:11mashers and better in the run game than Titus Howard is.
10:16And that's a part of the overall methodology.
10:19It feels like, all right, there's a consistent theme here, at least.
10:24I think Cole Popovich knows what he's doing as an offensive line coach.
10:27But as I said all year long, man, you can talk about being smash mouth all day long and
10:32all you want, but you got to have the Jimmies and the Joes to execute the X's and O's.
10:39Yep.
10:40And they just didn't have that.
10:41So whatever price point it is, I think they want guys who are more blue-collar, lunch-pail.
10:48Like Trent Williams is a premier offensive tackle.
10:50He is a blue-collar, lunch-pail type of guy.
10:53Yes.
10:54If the Texans were going to pay $22-plus million per year, they want a guy like that who's
10:59not just a great pass protector, but who wants to punch you in the mouth.
11:03Literally.
11:03That's his go-to move.
11:05He gets away with a quick hand to shove to the face mask.
11:09That's one of the reasons J.J. cited for why he would never come back.
11:12He's like, I don't know if I feel like I get in Trent Williams' hand in my face 30 times
11:17a game.
11:17Yeah.
11:18It's interesting because I'm already seeing on the base power text line, Adam Schein's
11:24not wrong.
11:24We left ourselves in need of four starting offensive linemen again.
11:27The whole thing about trading Titus, and don't even mix in Juice Scruggs.
11:31They gave, I saw people yesterday, gave away two offensive linemen like Juice Scruggs was
11:35probably going to get cut.
11:36And so he was a throw into that deal.
11:39Juice Scruggs is not part of the conversations that we're having today, other than this is
11:43a, this seems to be a concession that that was a waste, that that was a bust.
11:48Yeah.
11:49Juice, you know, so that's, if we want to have that conversation that, that they drafted a
11:52guy in the second round a few years ago that they wound up being a throw in for a 29
11:56year
11:57old running back, I'm here to have that conversation.
11:58But as far as the notion on this text, that the Titus Howard trade was somehow bad because
12:03now you need four offensive linemen, let them fill the four offensive linemen first before
12:09you, that's not a reason, it's a reason you should be nervous.
12:11It's not a reason that the trade was bad.
12:13This is, okay, so this is, to text her, I'd say this, don't fall into that trap of somebody
12:19using the truth to paint an incomplete picture.
12:22Right.
12:22Using a truth to tell a lie.
12:24Right.
12:24I think that's what, I think that's what Jamie said about Cersei once.
12:27She's very good at using, or no, Tyrion said it in Game of Thrones.
12:30She's very good at using the truth to tell a lie.
12:33The big, the big part that Shine and everybody else is leaving out, and it's, it's fair to
12:40discuss this, but you can't leave it out.
12:43You have to see what the Texans do next with the offensive line.
12:46Right.
12:46If Shine's contention is that the Texans aren't going to make any more moves on the offensive
12:51line, then, and he believes that, then bring it up.
12:55Because that's what you're really saying.
12:57You're saying, oh, wait a second, you traded for, you traded for a running back, and then
13:02you're trading away an offensive lineman, and with the extreme level of criticism that
13:06he's levying on them, he's basically saying, without saying it, he doesn't expect the Texans
13:11to make any moves on the offensive line now.
13:13Right, right.
13:14So there's, and I don't know, I guess, I, I, I must have missed all of these people proclaiming
13:21how essential Titus Howard is going to be, like, in having an awesome offense that, I
13:28mean, for me, I've always felt like, I, I felt like he's an adequate offensive lineman.
13:33Yeah.
13:33He's a solid enough starting offensive lineman.
13:35Yeah.
13:36Um, but to act like he's irreplaceable or something, I just don't get that sentiment.
13:41It was, it was not a good offensive line last year.
13:43It was a better offensive line.
13:45Right.
13:45They were stabilized.
13:46They might've been about an average offensive line in some regards for the second half of
13:50the season, they still weren't a good run blockers.
13:52So that's just, it's what did the Texans do from here?
13:55Yes.
13:56And I would say the, um, the skeptics of the tightest deal, the things that I saw yesterday,
14:03and this is right after the trade was made.
14:05I mean, Seth and I were on the air and then for three more hours after this deal got done.
14:08So we went deep on this thing yesterday.
14:10I would say if I had a bullet point at Seth, the skeptics say, didn't get enough for him.
14:14Yeah.
14:15Fifth rate.
14:15You got a fifth round pick for a starting tackle.
14:17Oh my God, without pointing out that he was probably agitating for a contract behind
14:22the scenes.
14:23Um, what, what's the plan, you know, what is the plan on the offensive line?
14:28And again, that's not a reason to say the trade was bad.
14:30That's a reason to be nervous in the interim until they make more moves.
14:34Like you said, um, the other, uh, skeptics also saying, look, um, clearly, you know, they'll
14:41say, Hey, we know they're going to go get more offensive linemen.
14:44I'm not a dummy.
14:44They only get, they bear, they can't even feel the team right now on the offensive line
14:48after those two trades yesterday.
14:50If they had to play a game today, they would have the jankiest offensive line in the NFL
14:54with what's in the building right now.
14:56We just don't trust the Texans and Nick Casario to staff this position because they've, they've
15:04missed on, they've missed on so many high picks, right?
15:07You know, to wit juice Scruggs was a throw in yesterday to the David Montgomery trade.
15:12We don't, we don't trust the Texans is a very fair sentiment to, to actually do something
15:17about the offensive line, but the trade in and of itself, this is a, I guess this is the
15:21other part is it doesn't sound like a whole lot.
15:25Wow.
15:25You're, you're letting go of your best offensive lineman for a fifth round pick.
15:28Nick, this is what you need to realize is that Nick talks to everybody.
15:32I don't worry about Nick selling low.
15:35I worry about any GM, including Nick, sometimes buying high or spending too much on something
15:41that doesn't work out.
15:42But when it comes to selling low, this is what you need to know about it.
15:46Nick talks to a lot of people and I'm guessing there were multiple teams that said, oh, Titus
15:52Howard, huh?
15:53Um, oh yeah.
15:54What's he want?
15:55Oh, he wants $22 million a year.
15:57Well, well, no, I'm not going to trade a second or a third round pick for that.
16:03Are you kidding me?
16:04This is how you wind up in Cleveland.
16:06The, yeah, the, the, this, the trade compensation tells you what other teams actually think about
16:12Titus Howard.
16:12You can look at your PFF grades, your pass rush win rate, or your run block win rate,
16:18any of those stupid stats out there.
16:20The teams are telling you what they think of Titus Howard when the best they could get
16:24for a guy who wants $22 million a year is a fifth round pick.
16:28Yeah, absolutely.
16:30I, we said this yesterday, Nick Casario does his due diligence on all this stuff.
16:34If this was Bill O'Brien trading him for a fifth round pick, I would say it's because
16:39Bill O'Brien just doesn't want to spend time on the phone with general managers back in
16:43the day.
16:43You know, like some guy and wanted to get rid of him as fast as possible.
16:48This is like a, this is a very dialed back version of the Deandre Hopkins trade where
16:52Bill O'Brien said, Hey, uh, after the trade, he said, Hey, Deandre wanted a new contract
16:56and we didn't want to give him a new contract.
16:57So we moved on from him.
16:59I could see that being the scenario with Titus Howard.
17:02The difference is that it felt like Bill O'Brien and Jack Easterby didn't really vet this
17:08thing with all 31 other teams.
17:10They found somebody to give him a second round pick.
17:12They liked David.
17:13They liked David Johnson for some reason.
17:16You remember when the, when the, the story came out, when the chiefs had traded for Frank
17:20Clark and they gave up a pretty tidy sum, wasn't it?
17:23Second and a third.
17:24I second and a third.
17:25Yeah.
17:25And the story came out later that the chiefs didn't even realize that Jadeveon Clowney was
17:30available for trade.
17:31Right.
17:31You know, that was, and now that was when Brian, that was the year Brian gang got fired.
17:36I think, uh, if I, if I remember 2019.
17:39Yep.
17:39So there was all kinds of disjointedness in the way the Texans were operating.
17:44That's, that's not the way Nick, Nick is a professional general manager.
17:47He's not the combination of Bill O'Brien and Jack Easterby.
17:50Okay.
17:50In April, 2019, the child was wrong.
17:52The chiefs acquired defensive end, Frank Clark for a first, a second and a swap of third
17:57round.
17:57Yeah.
17:58Yeah.
17:58And I don't know that Clark was as highly thought of as Clowney back.
18:01I mean, Clowney was coming off of three pro bowls.
18:04Yeah.
18:04A lot of people forget when they assess that trade, that Clowney was really coming off of
18:09a solid stretch of play.
18:10He was still a young player.
18:11Yeah.
18:12All right.
18:12He's still around.
18:13Yeah.
18:14He's going to be somewhere on a one-year deal this year.
18:16For like 12 million bucks.
18:17He's showing up when I'm watching a Cowboys game.
18:19I'm like, is that, is that Clowney?
18:21It's Clowney, man.
18:22That's that big freak of nature.
18:23It's your Clowney, isn't it?
18:23It's your gun.
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