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00:02I feel like there's something amazing of the handheld cameras that is the easiest way to react
00:08and is the easiest way to kind of be in the moment and to react and to adapt to what
00:14actors
00:15are doing or to what the environment is doing. But to your point, handheld can be very frenetic.
00:30Hi everyone, I'm Clint Bentley. I'm the director and co-writer of Train Dreams and I'm here today
00:37with our cinematographer, Adolfo Veloso of Train Dreams. But beyond that, just a wonderful person
00:44and artist and somebody who's really changed the way I look at the form. Hey, Adolfo.
00:50Hello, my friend. It's so weird. I feel like you are probably in the room next door or something
00:57like that. But it's great. Yeah, we're on the road a ton talking about in hotel after hotel
01:04talking about Train Dreams.
01:29Curry! Curry, I love you. I love you. I love you. I love you. I love you. You got it?
01:32No!
01:35Party!
02:04I was wondering, like, when you are now writing a script, do you even think already about how
02:12we're gonna shoot it or not really? Like, are you thinking, oh, let me put this as like a sunset
02:19or a blue baller scene no it's a good question because i think yeah we've we've started this
02:27what we started on jockey and then and then moved into um train dreams was not only a way of
02:34working
02:34with light and with natural light but also like a freedom of moving with the actors and and leaving
02:40scenes open and i remember on train dreams and in writing it alongside greg quidar for anybody out
02:46there uh but but you know well i was already trying to think about those things and put them
02:50in there like like scripting in the shot of the of the the camera attached to the tree um that
02:57falls
02:57and and and things like that i'm trying not to put the cart before the horse because i can you
03:04know
03:04and and get like too caught up in thinking about the form versus the just the story because i find
03:13that's something that's so helpful from from like uh those early conversations with you
03:18because you lead from a story first which i think might surprise some people giving the craft that
03:27you put forth is so good that i think it it it probably seems like to some people that you
03:33start
03:33there but you really are it's so helpful to work with you because you do start from a story
03:37perspective first in terms of how we're going to approach the lighting yeah but i feel like that's
03:42the amazing thing that especially on train dreams the fact that like you were sending me the early
03:49versions of the script and the first drafts to be able to have this privilege of actually like
03:55drinking the story first and assimilating it without having to think about how to shoot it and to how
04:02we're gonna solve the problems and to have like just like a free spirit around the story itself
04:08and all the conversations we have i feel like that's the most helpful thing for me ever more
04:14than to talk about like the references and we always get to that point and we discuss things like on
04:21this
04:21one we did tarkovsky dorothea lange etc but i feel like the the thing that helps me the most is
04:27always the
04:28conversations where i'm just asking you things about like the character and random things while we're
04:32driving around to find locations even and um when we call each other on the phone during like the first
04:39drafts
04:40you're just telling me like your own struggles with the story and what you like finding which are many
04:46no but the things you're struggling with the script itself because those things inform me a lot
04:51about what about what you want to tell with the story and what you want to like us to feel
04:57as an
04:57audience and what the characters should be feeling and the emotional part of it and that it's actually
05:03everything i i take to kind of like then think about the visual solutions and then i deliver those things
05:11back to you yeah and then you tell me what you think and i feel like that's the most helpful
05:15thing on on
05:16thinking how to shoot things in in a way i remember like writing some of those things in the scripts
05:22that were visual cues or transition ideas and i remember you saying do more of that like more of
05:29those like throw those in there but but i do recall also in as a specific point talking about like
05:36wanting nature to be a character and not wanting nature to just feel like this like backdrop for these
05:42human stories and then that manifested itself in this idea that you had when we were in we were
05:49out in spokane already in hard prep but like to shoot a scene when arne gets the the branch falls
05:56onto arne to shoot that from the perspective of a tree and like throw a camera up uh in a
06:01tree looking
06:02down at this thing but i think that's an example of of what you're talking about there
06:07i don't get my gears turning smooth until it's over 100. that's good
06:16all this summer little rain my day we work around the whole pot and i just won't suit it
06:27back then we'd riddle a bowl with all the holes sometimes we had to wait a week
06:32a good wind to topple them behemoths and then they all came coming down once
06:39so he's twice the beginning you're cutting around here
06:43for me it's so hard to even think about like if someone tells me now like take a picture of
06:48this
06:48room i'll have no idea what to do you know like i'll know where to place the camera or what
06:54lens to
06:55choose whatever unless there is like something behind it if you tell me no but take a picture of this
07:01room
07:02thinking that a couple had an argument here yesterday and they left and they didn't pay the
07:07check whatever and then i'll be okay now now i can think about where to put the camera maybe let's
07:12put
07:13it at the door because they left without paying and then let's put it like as a high angle because
07:18it's
07:18going to look like a security camera to see they arguing you know like i feel like it's it's really
07:24really hard for me to to make any choices if i don't um have uh an idea behind even like
07:34nowadays
07:34when i take pictures you know like or or or like still photography that it's it's just so hard to
07:41um have those images without uh being formed by something bigger and i feel like that's the amazing
07:50thing about not only like your scripts like with greg and the way they are written already but like
07:56the the the conversations we have and i think that's the amazing thing about working with someone
08:02that it's not only like a collaborator but a friend because we discuss so many things when we're talking
08:08about stuff so we're talking about robert and suddenly i'm telling you about something about my life
08:14that reminds me of what robert is leaving in the script and you tell me something about yourself
08:20and then those things kind of inform us a lot on what to do but i also love the fact
08:26that we think
08:27about all that but then suddenly we are on set and something else is happening and there's like a chicken
08:34outside or joe would tell us something different or felicity would have like a new idea and like even
08:41though we plan those things and we talked about all those things for like a year or two years how
08:47we are both really like easily convinced to do something else too and to look to the side and i
08:54think that's something i learned a lot from you to just like always be open to to to yeah to
08:59that to
09:00the bird flying right next to you so that changes the whole thing i agree i appreciate a lot as
09:08well
09:09and and something that we like it was really relevatory on jockey and not not to like talk
09:14about another film but it really it really like influences like what we did here in a big way
09:19because i just remember that like i i started out in music as we've talked about and like and like
09:25having a band that like we all know the song but we're trying to find something new in the moment
09:30and a new way to play the song for the audience or for ourselves or whatever i'd never felt that
09:35on a film
09:36set until we were making jockey together and it felt like it felt like that thing of like we all
09:42know
09:43the chords that we need to play here and we know that we know the beats we need to hit
09:46but like we're
09:47also trying to make something new in the moment and that's been the most freeing thing about working
09:53together and i remember somebody asking me this about um they're like how does adolfo place the camera
10:00where he does on some of these things that like uh in particular moments where like it's on the log
10:07and joel's cutting some branches and like things are flying at the camera and they're like how long
10:12does that take like how did you guys shoot the film so fast with like how does he rig it
10:15up and like
10:15and balance it and all that and i'm like no it's really just because he's has it on his shoulder
10:20and
10:20then he pops it down and sets it down and and then moves it over and these things kind of
10:26like
10:27come out of that one of my favorite shots in the movie is early on when the tree falls and
10:33then
10:33they're sawing into the tree and the camera goes like follows over to joel from the other logger
10:38and kind of introduces him and it's one of my favorite like shots especially in a period film
10:42like this to kind of break apart the form and i remember that just coming from like you're on this
10:48guy and then you turned over to get a shot of joel and it was like so beautiful i remember
10:54in the
10:55moment i thought of that shot in the shining when like um nicholson is actually is like cutting into
11:00the door and it's like and then we we quickly like talked about it and then you started following the
11:05saw back and forth it just feels very alive because of uh because of that ability to improvise in the
11:12moment that i think is so like keeps the film alive too yeah the actors makes it fun to show
11:18it
11:19though so i love when like you like those little moments we had a lot on on train dreams but
11:26also
11:26on jockey that you just tell the actors something like set them like where they are in the story and
11:35what they're supposed to be feeling at that moment and because of the work you do with them also in
11:40advance they know exactly what the characters are and what they're supposed to be feeling
11:46and you just say you just say something okay let's um shoot them cooking here and and they are you're
11:54just gonna like they just gonna have a conversation we shoot that and it's amazing because like that
12:00scene it's in the movie and it was not scripted it was not like planned we just decided to do
12:06that on
12:07the go because we have like 20 minutes to spare or something but because of the way you inform
12:13everybody about like what everybody's supposed to be feeling and then i know also like what that
12:20it's supposed to be in a way so it's kind of easy for everybody to just be transported to a
12:25scene that
12:25doesn't exist and i i i love how they were suddenly like informing us a lot about the plot even
12:32though
12:34not scripted at all and like because you mentioned the the that shot the the first shot of what that
12:41we actually see joe the other day someone uh asked me about that like the camera language and and the
12:47fact like someone mentioned something like huh i feel like the first time there is like a handheld
12:52camera like kind of really fluid it's the first time he sees gladys because everything else is kind of
12:58more mechanic in a way and i i remember we discussing that at some point which is something that like
13:05we had we had all like basically the three rules about like how camera would behave from his different
13:12ages you know like when when he's i i telling to everybody else because you obviously know that
13:19when when he's a kid or a teenager the camera doesn't move at all it's a fixed camera to to
13:24evoke the
13:25feeling that it is a still image uh going back to our like visual motif of like pictures but
13:31uh we love that idea that like our own memories we don't really uh not sure of the things like
13:39the things i remember from my childhood i'm not sure if i remember them or i remember because i saw
13:44a
13:44picture of the time so we wanted the camera not to move at all when he was a kid and
13:49then when he's
13:50like an adult and the biggest chunk of his life the camera does a bit of everything we have a
13:55lot of like
13:55really posed things like a picture would be really organic handheld moves dolly a crane and then we
14:02saved the static cam for the last part of his life where like the camera moves with him and it's
14:08a kind
14:09of a softer and and move with with someone that it's kind of more in peace with everything in a
14:16way
14:17but besides that going back to to to that shot the the the first time you see joe and we
14:24we we discussed
14:26that at some point in the shoot but i feel like we realized at some point that all the moves
14:31of the
14:32camera moves the handheld camera moves mostly of when he was like cutting and when he's working are much
14:41more uh like kind of fast moves and more like yeah yeah while when he's with the family everything is
14:49more organic and the camera kind of floats around but when he's working is about more like fast bands
14:54and it's more aggressive it's more aggressive in a way and that's just basically like us reacting to
15:01to to to the environment and to what the actors are doing and the thing so a lot of the
15:07things are really
15:07discuss things in advance like those rules we had for the camera and the visual motif of like the
15:13steel images and evoking memories through pictures but some things are just like things that come from
15:21from set and from us just reacting to to to the actors and to to the locations and to what
15:28is happening
15:29it's even funny when people ask those things and you realize oh that's true you know we we didn't
15:34necessarily discuss that in advance but it makes sense because uh that's what was happening and
15:40we were reacting in a different way yeah it's coming from an intuitive place i think both of us share
15:47this
15:47and and and why we we we get along well but we we're very open and free but also like
15:55have a really like
15:56low bar for bullshit and don't want like and like i i know one thing that we we talked about
16:03on both
16:03films is like we never want people to know where a line was improvised and where it was written or
16:10where
16:10a scene was just kind of pulled together like that cooking scene that cooking scene yeah we we came up
16:16with that in the moment with alex schaller uh our product our amazing production designer being like
16:22you haven't shot this part of the cabin what the hell are you doing we're like okay great trying
16:27to make everything feel of a whole but i wonder one thing that i've always like really appreciated and
16:33is very rare to find i i have a very like um i get very annoyed by handheld a lot
16:40you know especially
16:41like handheld as it's become in a post like uh reality tv space where it's it's it's all like
16:48this kind of like arch approach to it that makes you like feel like it's handheld and and and there's
16:55something about your uh but but people kind of have started to split in recent years where they're
17:00either leaning into that or they're going a very classical direction and the thing i i get so excited
17:06about and and allows us so much freedom is that you'll do these shots i think some people would not
17:13do and would not have maybe the bravery to do it they would want a rig to like spin a
17:20camera upside
17:20down you know rather than doing it handheld or or to put a put a camera down by a river
17:25um and then
17:26pick it up and and move it along with a kid uh or or just follow along with a chicken
17:30and then move up
17:30you know like those things that like they feel like old kind of classic uh hollywood for lack of a
17:39better way to say it moves you know like like classic cinema moves do you have any thought to
17:45or give any thought or did you in the past think about uh an approach you wanted to take as
17:51a
17:51cinematographer to camera movement or camera movement that you don't like or is it really just
17:56like like you talked about with the photographs of like it's just kind of in the moment based on what
18:03the what the thing needs it's a good question i feel like it has a lot to do with like
18:09reacting
18:10and being in the moment and i feel like there's something amazing of the handheld camera is that
18:15is the easiest way to react and is the easiest way to kind of be in the moment and to
18:20react and
18:21to adapt to to what actors are doing or to what the environment is doing but to your point handheld
18:29can
18:29be very frenetic no way you know like i feel like if it is um that classic handheld uh super
18:36shaky
18:37it can kind of get in the way of a lot of things so i think what i was because
18:43of like i did so much
18:45stuff handheld in my life i did like i mean jockey it's basically 99 handheld and then like i did
18:52a
18:52documentary that was 100 handheld and stuff like that that i feel like i was just trying to develop
18:59a way to have a camera that it is handheld just so you can react better and you can be
19:07there and
19:07you can have a smaller footprint etc but that you can have the shots that you would have with other
19:13tools but because of maybe because of the way i learned like back in brazil and the stuff i would
19:19shoot that we wouldn't have any gear and talk about gumbiarra exactly the the famous uh uh gambiarra
19:29and i feel like it's it's exactly that okay we don't have a crane we don't have a dollar here
19:34but
19:34that's what we wanted we don't want like a camera running like it is a person running a pov of
19:40that but
19:40we want the softness of it so i feel like it was just like a lot of like during my
19:45life trying to do
19:46those movements without having those tools and that's really handy today because of what you
19:51said you know like we don't need to then like joe it's with the kid in the river and something
19:57is
19:57really beautiful happening you don't need to wait for okay let's bring a crane in and then
20:01all the whole moment is ruined and uh you're losing something that of course you can replicate that
20:07you know i mean i feel like i read that that works in the film knows that we can replicate
20:13things
20:14and we can um try again etc but some really magical things cannot be replicated something just happened
20:20you know those birds flying or that reaction that they gave and that first instinct of of what they
20:27were doing might just happen once and i feel like being bringing that thing of like not having the the
20:35the tools and not having necessarily um everything you need and having to adapt with that and doing the
20:42gambiarra uh it's it's it's it's not something that i ever want to lose in a way because it doesn't
20:51matter how big the production is and that you have access to all those things like obviously on jockey we
20:58one of the reasons we shop with natural light only basically is because we didn't have money for lights
21:04or anything but on train dreams we could have used lights it was a conscious decision from the both of
21:12us to like lean on that because of everything we wanted to to bring from from that world not only
21:20like the realism and the naturalism but also like it was the way to make it look like it was
21:27like jockey
21:28a set with just 10 people even though we had a hundred people and trucks and etc like we didn't
21:33have on jockey we we discussed that how much we wanted it to feel the same for the actors to
21:39have
21:39the freedom to move the camera around to not have like sea stands around and to make them feel like
21:45they were in a cabin in 1920s in the woods the only way you can actually achieve that if is
21:51if the only
21:53weird thing that you have there is the camera and then to make it as invisible as possible it's also
21:59important so suddenly if you have a crane in the middle of the cabin that is like three by three
22:05like
22:06how you know how how you can feel that and if you have led lights and etc etc like i
22:12feel like so much of
22:14the magic that you are uh able to pull uh from the script but also with the actors and the
22:22way you
22:23immerse the actors you work with on those environments would be kind of ruined if i would instantly bring
22:31a lot of things and i'll be like yeah you know all that magic that you do yeah do that
22:35but now you
22:36have a flag here a light here so they can improvise but they need to be in this uh small
22:41square
22:42so again i feel like it's also reacting to to to your style and what your work and making sure
22:51you
22:51can do your thing the amazing thing you do with them that i have no idea how you do but
22:56you do it
22:57well i think that's the that's the great thing is like the freedom that comes from it for the actors
23:02as well that like that scene with uh joel and and carrie condon out on the balcony um i i
23:10was remarking
23:11to somebody about this the other day of like that aspect of like shooting in natural light and having
23:16as much of a space as we can to be able to move around it ultimately leads to something really
23:22special for the actors that like we can shoot joel's side of that scene which i think we shot
23:27first on that one but like we can shoot joel's side and do it and then you just turn around
23:33and
23:33we don't have to like say all right take 30 minutes and and go and and we're going to reset
23:38all these
23:38lights and then come back they get to an emotional place and then can stay there just because you can
23:45turn around i don't know how you um do what you do in terms of making everything feel like
23:53you're just kind of moving along with something and following something and yet it feels so uh
23:58thoughtful and and and so composed um and gives a lot of freedom to to the actors and and um
24:07set
24:08decorators and production designers and everybody to to shine just to add on what you just said i feel
24:14like it is also um a lot of teamwork from everybody like i feel like the reason we were able
24:20to shoot that
24:21way it's not just because obviously we decided but because everybody on the team was up for it and
24:28we had like the work of like alex our production designer for example not only building everything
24:35from scratch and building sets on location but having a close conversation with me to figure out
24:42where she should put the windows that would help me and how we would orientate the cabin in a way
24:48that
24:49would be helpful for the sun so we were studying the sun on that location to figure out how to
24:53orient it where to put the windows how the light would actually come into the cabin versus it being
24:58a black hole inside exactly and and the same thing with the fire tower like to build the fire tower
25:02facing the sunset and it's actually there is a a lot of work that goes i just mentioned alex but
25:08it's
25:08basically all departments and the ad's and the producers to schedule around also being at the right
25:14time at the right place to then give all the actors and and you and and everybody the freedom
25:20to then do whatever because when you you are in the right space it works for light and for the
25:27actors
25:27and everything then you can just keep shooting and you avoid a lot of what you were mentioning that
25:34like i did movies like that and it's always frustrating when you're like gonna do the reverse and then you
25:39send
25:40everybody to their trailers and then a lot of people come on set and they like they mess the whole
25:45thing
25:46and then some people go on their phones and the whole mood is lost in a way and then you
25:50bring standings
25:51and then suddenly like lighting and standing i mean we love them but like it's not the same they they're
25:57a little different they don't behave the same way and they're there but then the actor is gonna bling
26:02and then like so there is all this process that it's just so much better to just like turn the
26:08camera
26:08and keep shooting and and see kind of like the magic flowing well i think the airplane sequence
26:13is a really good example of that of like something that on a film of our budget we would not
26:17be able
26:17to do normally but that's the thing that like every department was able to come together and
26:23and i don't remember which of us found it but i think you found it but like we were trying
26:27to
26:27figure out how to do this airplane sequence and you found the dunkirk uh example uh of how they shot
26:33those sequences because we couldn't send joel up into a plane and then having alex build this fuselage
26:40and her team with john and then um and then and then putting joel up in this plane that then
26:47we're
26:47able to shoot in natural light but then having the the backstop of ilia our production designer who
26:54who can who can paint out the trees that pop up in the background and and puts clouds in there
26:59and then at the end of it all like the editing of that scene that was able to come together
27:06because
27:07you just shot these random shots along the way and just like picked up these random things
27:11sometimes they're like sometimes little little gifts that i don't know are there until i pop
27:15in the dailies and i'm like oh that's a beautiful shot of a chair um that uh that then we
27:21have so much
27:22material to work with so it's a real gift so thanks for chatting today my pleasure see you soon
27:28yeah i'll see you in another one of these
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