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00:01Breaking news out of London. British police have arrested the brother of King Charles
00:05in their investigation into the late sex offender Jeffrey Epstein.
00:09Former Prince Andrew was taken into custody outside his home at Sandringham Estate.
00:21Someday my prince will come.
00:25I'm going to stop you right there.
00:27First of all, he's no longer a prince.
00:29How come?
00:30Trust me, you don't want to know.
00:33It's okay. Someday my former prince will come.
00:36Not going to happen.
00:38Hi-ho, hi-ho, it's off to jail he comes.
00:43He went to Ohio with a pedophile.
00:45Hi-ho, hi-ho, hi-ho, hi-ho.
00:49It's the Late Show with Stephen Colbert.
00:53Tonight, thrown in jail.
00:56Plus, Stephen welcomes Melissa McCarthy and Michael Pollan.
01:06Featuring Lewis Cato and the Great Big Joy Machine.
01:11And now, live on tape from the Ed Sullivan Theater in New York City, it's Stephen Colbert!
01:41Welcome.
01:43Welcome, one and all, to The Late Show.
01:45I'm your host, Stephen Colbert.
01:47Thank you and gentlemen.
01:49You might notice, you might notice, you guys know, you might notice, I'm sounding a little
01:54froggy tonight.
01:55I've been losing my voice all week.
01:58It's almost all back, but the rest of it is available on YouTube.
02:03I feel like, uh, it feels, it was a great day.
02:11It feels like spring here in New York.
02:13It's in the 40s.
02:14The snow is melting, leaving behind piles of uncollected dog poop.
02:20Like, like mastodon bones emerging from the Siberian permafrost.
02:26There's a spring in my step, because you really want to hop over all that poop.
02:31Also, because this morning, the former Prince Andrew was arrested following revelations in
02:36the Epsom Files.
02:37Yes!
02:38Finally!
02:39Someone!
02:40Anyone!
02:42Let's hear it!
02:43Let's hear it for British justice, which is better, which is better than American justice,
02:49because it comes with frilly wigs.
02:54As Andrew was being driven away by police, a photographer snapped this photo.
03:02It's, it's a classic pose known as the Nosferatu.
03:07Technically, uh, this arrest isn't about, uh, any charges of pedophilia.
03:12UK authorities busted Andrew for misconduct in public office, which is defined as serious
03:17willful abuse or neglect of the power or responsibilities of the public office held, which is not only
03:24not illegal in the United States, it was Trump's campaign slogan.
03:29Back here in the colonies, it was a big day for Donald Trump.
03:33Today, he held the inaugural meeting of his Board of Peace, which is kind of like the
03:38U.N., except instead of passing binding resolutions, you pass a greasy bag of money to Donald Trump,
03:43because a permanent seat on the board is one billion dollars in cash, and Donald Trump is
03:54chairman for life.
03:55So, the Board of Peace works kind of like a strip club.
03:59Cash only, and Donald Trump will never leave.
04:03So far, so far, all of our closest allies have refused to jump on board, but he has signed up
04:09Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Belarus, Egypt, El Salvador, Hungary, Kazakhstan, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, the UAE, and Uzbekistan.
04:21It's the Epcot of places Goofy was jailed without a trial.
04:26Um, uh-huh, uh-huh.
04:33I'm, uh, I'm on a hunger strike until I see my family, huh-huh.
04:42The froggy voice helps with Goofy a little bit.
04:46The list of board members, uh, has opened up Trump to a little bit of criticism, but yesterday, Caroline Levitt
04:51hit back.
04:53This is a-a legitimate organization where there are tens of-of member countries from around the world.
05:04Really?
05:08Tens, you say?
05:11Impressive.
05:11I don't want to brag about my personal wealth, but I am a ten-ionaire.
05:19This morning, Trump met with the Trump Peace Board in D.C. at the U.S. Institute of Peace, which
05:25he recently renamed the Donald J. Trump Institute of Peace.
05:30At a certain point, all this renaming is going to get confusing for everyone.
05:35Driver, take me to the Trump building.
05:37Which one, Mac?
05:38The airport, the theater, the peace building, or the House of Pancakes?
05:46By the way, by the way, by the way, do you want this big salty pretzel?
05:57I thought it was a steering wheel.
05:59It's not.
06:06Trump treated the world leaders to a classic dribble cup sundown ramble fest.
06:11Here he is introducing the president of Paraguay.
06:13President Pena of Paraguay is here, president.
06:18President, thank you very much.
06:20Young, handsome guy.
06:22It's always nice to be young and handsome.
06:25Doesn't mean we have to like you.
06:27I don't like young, handsome men.
06:31Women?
06:32Yes, I like.
06:39Does he know we can hear him?
06:45Sir, sir, especially right now, ixnay on the unye imunway.
06:53If he doesn't stop yapping, Pam Bondi is going to have to start live redacting.
06:59Trump laid out.
07:01Trump laid out.
07:08I don't know what I'm dancing to.
07:10Trump laid out his vision for the relationship between the peace board and the United Nations.
07:15The board of peace is going to almost be looking over the United Nations and making sure it runs properly.
07:22Yes, they're almost going to be doing something.
07:26Now that they've raised billions of dollars, their first mission, figuring out why.
07:33Other things happened today.
07:35He complained about Norway not giving him the Nobel.
07:37He bragged about Melania's movie, then ended by banging a golden gavel,
07:42after which they played the traditional international peace song.
07:46You're welcome.
07:48We'll take it with us.
07:50Thank you, everybody.
07:55It might seem strange, but party jams have always been part of international peace.
08:06Don't forget the Camp David Accords.
08:08Thank you very much.
08:18That's what I was dancing to.
08:20That's what I was dancing to.
08:23After he fixed peace, he flew off to Georgia and gave reporters kind of a weird statement
08:28on Air Force One.
08:29Remember over the weekend when President Obama casually said on a podcast that aliens were real
08:35and then quickly walked it back the next day, probably because aliens got to him?
08:39Well, this afternoon, Fox's Peter Doocy asked Trump about that.
08:44Something that got a lot of attention this week.
08:46Barack Obama said that aliens are real.
08:50Have you seen any evidence of non-human visitors to Earth?
08:54Well, he gave classified information.
08:56He's not supposed to be doing that.
09:07He's not supposed to be doing that.
09:28So aliens are real?
09:29Well, I don't know if they're real or not.
09:31No, I don't have an opinion on it.
09:32I never talk about it.
09:35He doesn't.
09:36While Trump never talks about meeting aliens, we do know he's had close encounters with predators.
09:42Now, one reason, one reason Trump might have left Washington is because the city is still dealing
09:51with millions of gallons of sewage spilled into the Potomac River, causing a horrific smell
09:57of what appears to be the largest discharge in the nation's history.
10:01Though I thought the largest discharge in the nation's history happened after Kid Rock and
10:06RFK Jr. drank whole milk in a hot tub.
10:13Whole milk in a hot tub.
10:15For more, we turn to our colleagues at WRCTV, Washington, D.C.'s number one, number two news leader.
10:26As I've said before to you guys, not only can you smell this when you're out here,
10:30but it is just so pungent you can taste it when you're talking.
10:35Man, that is a tough assignment.
10:40Regretting all the life choices that have brought me here today,
10:44I'm Mark Seagraves, and my mouth tastes like boiling hot dookie.
10:50Now, let's head over.
10:53Now, let's head over to the sports desk with runny diarrhea.
10:57I'm sorry, the sports desk with ronny diarrhea.
11:03Thanks, Mark.
11:13I've been delaying this, but I think it's important at last that we address the most pressing issue of the
11:19day.
11:19The grandson of the inventor of Reese's peanut butter cups has accused Hershey of cutting corners.
11:25Wait, wait, there used to be corners?
11:30They'd be so great to nibble.
11:33Reese's, you owe me a lifetime of delicious edging.
11:36The angry grandson in question here is Brad Reese, seen here leading exactly the life you'd think the grandson of
11:43a candy empire would lead.
11:46Brad accuses Hershey of hurting the Reese's brand by shifting to cheaper ingredients, claiming that now the peanut butter cups
11:54are not edible.
11:55I used to eat a Reese's product every day.
11:58It is very devastating to me.
11:59Yes, he's devastated.
12:02I guess you could say that Brad Reese is in pieces.
12:16Specifically, Reese claims that, among other things, the company replaced milk chocolate with compound coatings.
12:25Well, I don't know what he's complaining about.
12:27We all know the song from Willy Wonka.
12:30Come with me and you'll be in a world of compound coatings.
12:39In response, in response, Hershey admitted to some recipe changes, but said those were necessary to meet customer demand for
12:48innovation.
12:49What demand for innovation?
12:51Reese's couldn't possibly innovate more already.
12:54They've already churned out mini cups and thin cups, big cups, and eggs, pumpkins, trees, sticks, clusters, globs, blobs, and
13:06body wash.
13:14Admittedly, some of these are not real.
13:19Yet.
13:20We've got a great show for you tonight.
13:22My guest is Wilson Parker, and the New York Times best-selling author, Michael Pollard.
13:27And when we come back, science.
13:38The Late Show with Stephen Colbert.
13:43Sponsored by Allstate.
13:46You're in good hands.
14:02Give it up for Lewis Kato and the great big joy machine.
14:06There we go.
14:10Folks, if you watch the show, and I hope you do, you know that I love science.
14:15It's the only excuse I have to use the words Erlenmeyer Flask.
14:20I'd like to bring you all the latest science news in my science segment.
14:24The sound of science.
14:27Hello, science, my old friend.
14:31First up in the world of science, king cobras are spreading to different parts of India
14:35by hitching rides on some of the country's busiest railway networks, a new study has found.
14:40The study says that the cobras are probably attracted to the availability of prey on the trains
14:45because freight trains carrying grain or fruit can attract rodents.
14:50Explains the new slogan for Ben's basmati rice.
14:52Don't worry, the rodents that were in this rice were all killed by the hitchhiking cobras.
15:06Next up in beer science, up in Oregon, a beer made with bear poop is likely a first in brewing
15:13history.
15:14Just because something is first doesn't mean it's a good idea.
15:18Look, kids, it's the first American Girl doll made of socks filled with teeth.
15:23Her name is Helen, and she survived the Triangle Shirtwaist fire.
15:27Why are you crying?
15:30I know you don't want any further details, but I have to know it, so you have to know it.
15:36The Bear Dookie was introduced to brewing water, then they made the water safe to drink,
15:42and turned it into a beer with notes of huckleberry and honey.
15:48And with after notes of toxoplasmosis and dumpster ham.
15:53And you may be asking, is it bad?
15:56Does a bear your beer?
16:08Next up, biologists say that the world's oldest known vertebrates had two pairs of eyes,
16:14which scientists believed enabled this remarkable creature to wear two pairs of groucho glasses at the same time.
16:23Next up, I don't mean to alarm you with a lousy headline just meant to get your attention,
16:28but a new study shows that Americans are on the verge of something called a sextinction,
16:33which sounds like the title of a movie that accidentally showed up on your hotel bill.
16:39Sextinction 2, Tyrannosaurus sex.
16:44According to research in the United States, one in three men and one in five women have not had sex
16:50in the past year.
16:51That's rough, okay? Men in the audience, look to your left,
16:56look to your right, you now have to have a threesome.
17:03For America.
17:05Next up, researchers at the University of Maryland have discovered that we fart twice as much as previously thought.
17:12How can you fart twice as much as all the time?
17:18How do they know this, you're asking?
17:21Well, researchers were able to measure people's flatulence using a tiny wearable device
17:26that snaps discreetly into underwear and tracks intestinal gas production called smart underwear.
17:36Okay, but how smart can it be if this is what it does for a living?
17:42Next up.
17:48Next up, science and tech website Gizmodo demands,
17:51watch a man get launched off a truck at 50 miles an hour for science.
17:57No.
17:59But I will do it for fun.
18:02Let's see it.
18:08Incredible.
18:10Sadly, seconds later, that guy got hit by a bus.
18:16The reason that experiment worked is the truck was moving 50 miles per hour,
18:21but the guy was launched the opposite direction off the back of the truck also at 50 miles per hour,
18:26so he was effectively standing still according to the idea of relative motion,
18:32the truck was moving 50 miles per hour, so he's going to be moving 50 miles per hour.
19:00He's going to be moving 50 miles per hour.
19:00He's going to be moving 50 miles per hour.
19:00Next up, scans of a 2,000-year-old mummy show that an ancient Egyptian lived with back pain.
19:06Egyptologists say that when the man's back gave out, he was known to shout,
19:09bird, bird, bird, sideways hand, smaller bird.
19:16Up next, no, no, no, no, do not reward me. Make me earn that.
19:25Next up, in Norway, there's some unexpected and confusing news.
19:29Polar bears in the Norwegian Arctic archipelago of Svalbard have become fatter and healthier,
19:35all while sea ice has steadily declined. Experts suspect the bears' dramatic weight gain
19:41may be related to the recent opening of the Svalbard Cheesecake Factory.
19:45We'll be right back with Melissa McCarthy.
20:12Ladies and gentlemen.
20:18Folks, my first guest is an Emmy award-winning actress you know from Bridesmaids Mike and
20:22Molly and The Little Mermaid. Please welcome back to The Late Show, Melissa McCarthy.
20:26We'll be right back to The Late Show, Melissa McCarthy.
20:57Thank you. You look straight from here to The Met Ball, I assume.
21:01You look so glamorous tonight with the sparkles and everything.
21:04Guys. Thank you.
21:05So few people take this seriously enough to dress up for the show.
21:09You know what? I take you very seriously.
21:11That's bad news for me. Is that my mistake?
21:13That's where I went wrong, right from the get-go.
21:16It's lovely to have you on for any reason and even better to have you on for no reason
21:23because this card, this card always says up here what the project is.
21:27And tonight, the rare two words, it just says,
21:31no plug.
21:33Which is referring to my hair work.
21:36No plug. I love it. Thank you so much.
21:39I am here. I mean, I'm here to say thank you to you.
21:44You've brought so much joy.
21:46You make us laugh.
21:48You leave the kindness.
21:51And I know, but it is, it's true. It's like we need it.
21:53We need somebody who just like aggressively loves and makes people laugh and stays on point
21:59with the truth and does it all in this beautiful human.
22:03It's pretty damn good.
22:04Thank you. That's so lovely.
22:05I mean it. I mean it.
22:08Can I hug you? Can I hug you?
22:10Yes. Can I hug you there a little bit?
22:10I want as many hugs as I can do.
22:13Thank you. You're the best. Thank you.
22:16Now, listen, how are you doing?
22:18I understand you had an accident recently and you fractured something.
22:22I did fracture something.
22:24My, my dad, who's wonderful, uh, very, very feisty, moves quickly.
22:30He fell and hurt, hurt himself a little bit, but didn't go to the doctor, which I'm like,
22:36that's what you want to do in 86.
22:38And then all of a sudden, seven days later, he's like, oh, does this seem okay to you?
22:43And I was like, his, I was like, you're, you're clearly broken finger.
22:48Clearly broken finger. And he's like, yeah.
22:50And I, so I was talking with my cousin and when I was lovingly giving my dad a hard time,
22:56because I'm like, he's always got to go 100 miles an hour.
22:59He's got to do this. He's got to do that.
23:00I'm doing it.
23:02I slammed my hand into the base of the table I was sitting at and fractured my finger.
23:10Imitating your dad?
23:11Imitating, giving him a rough time.
23:14And then Ben, I told Ben and I was like, I, I think I really heard it.
23:19Like, I think I honestly, I think I honestly heard it.
23:22I've never done that thing where you're like, I bet you have to pull out because something's like,
23:25Yeah.
23:25I was like, I think I broke it.
23:27And then Ben just goes, yeah, I know because 20 years ago, I married Mike McCarthy.
23:34And he goes, you, you seem to think you're in mocking him.
23:37You're just acting like yourself.
23:38And I was like, oh, so I fractured my finger and then my dad had to have surgery.
23:44He had, I mean.
23:47I want to point out.
23:51Did you get to pick the color?
23:53I did pick the color.
23:54You got to pick the color?
23:55He had to go in for hand surgery.
23:56And this lovely Dr. Chen, I was like, I'm not trying to get free medical advice,
24:00but I think I have jacked up my finger.
24:03And then he took an x-ray.
24:04He's like, yeah, you fractured it.
24:05Good job.
24:06So you piggybacked on your dad's surgery?
24:10That's a penny pincher is what that is.
24:13Those are good Midwestern roots.
24:14I'm like, the doctor's here anyway.
24:16I want to point out that it's both of your middle fingers.
24:23Which became a weird McCarthy Falcone tradition during COVID.
24:29At one point, because we don't like, no matter how much I swear in movies,
24:33we don't swear at the house, I don't flip off my children.
24:37And then a friend of ours, Sammy, was like, you know, it was not the happiest of times.
24:42She would just go out into the yard or stand somewhere really far away.
24:46I can't do it on camera, but I'll use this finger.
24:49Uh, she would just, she would wait it out.
24:52Like, she'd wait 10 minutes for one of the girls to look outside.
24:55And she's, like, in the bushes.
24:57And then it caught, like, wildfire.
24:59So we would do it and, like, stand outside and try to be like, oh, is that a bird off
25:03the window?
25:04And you'd try to, like, on the second floor and then somebody's standing in the front yard.
25:08And then my dad started doing it, which I've never seen my dad flip anybody off.
25:13And my mom wouldn't do it.
25:14My mom would just go, I'll give you lots of fingers.
25:18Sandy, Sandy's not going to flip you off.
25:20But so the irony, I just got back from Chicago.
25:23And as I rounded the corner, I was hanging out of the window waving at them.
25:28And I did that to my dad, and he did it right back.
25:33How's the best family?
25:34How bad?
25:35Good.
25:35The girls?
25:35That is good.
25:36The girls are good.
25:37You have one going to college?
25:40Just went to college?
25:40I have one in college.
25:41She's a freshman.
25:42That's tough.
25:42That's tough.
25:43What was that like to see one of the baby birds go away?
25:45It feels crazy.
25:47Are you ready to be an empty nester?
25:48Because it's important.
25:50It's really important.
25:51And I rediscovered this, and I hope Evie has discovered this,
25:54because we're true empty nesters now, because all three kids are out.
25:56Three of them are out.
25:57Is that they're, she's fantastic company, and I hope I am for her.
26:01How, what's Ben like to live with?
26:03Is that okay?
26:04He's the greatest.
26:05He makes me belly laugh 10 times a day.
26:07He's super weird.
26:10Give me an example.
26:11In a compelling weird.
26:12What's it like, like an average afternoon?
26:14Well, there's something where he says it's me, but it's him.
26:17It's him.
26:18He moves like a cat.
26:21Like absolutely, he's absolutely silent.
26:23He's silent in a way that's like off-putting.
26:26Because it is that thing of like, okay, there's nobody here.
26:29I turn and Ben's there.
26:33It's like the scene in Sixth Sense where she leaves the kitchen for a second
26:36and all the cabinet doors are open.
26:38It's terrifying.
26:39And I keep telling him I'm going to put a bell on him.
26:43Because it really, it's-
26:44Or make a, make a, buy him a pair of clogs.
26:46Oh, just bending a clog.
26:49He's always like, I can't wear things where I have to grip.
26:53Since the last time you were here, and this is something I'm jealous of.
26:56Uh, it, I, I had the honor of interviewing Hollywood legend, Barbra Streisand.
27:00Oh my gosh.
27:02You recorded a song with her.
27:04That seems crazy.
27:06How did that happen?
27:07Well, I said no at first because I-
27:09You said no?
27:09Well, because I really was like, who is this?
27:12Like, who is this really?
27:13Is Barbra Streisand that called me?
27:15I thought you were getting punked.
27:15Yeah, I was like, this is hilarious.
27:17But she like, or she's, there's a different Melissa that she wants.
27:21And then when it was happening, I was like, I mean, there's,
27:23how do you even prepare for that? I felt crazy.
27:26What did you sing?
27:27Uh, we sang, um, anything you can do, I can-
27:30Oh, Annie, get your gun.
27:31Yes.
27:31But we changed a few lines, and of course she was like,
27:35I've cleared it with everyone. I'm like, okay.
27:37Because I was like, I am not singing to Barbra Streisand
27:40and saying things that you're actually doing something bad.
27:44I was like, we have to soften those lines,
27:46or I'm going to have a line waiting to talk to me.
27:49What was that? What did that feel like?
27:50It felt crazy. She also kept doing the funny thing.
27:53First of all, I met her, and she was just eating lunch meat,
27:55which I was like, this is unexpected.
27:57Where did you meet her?
27:58Well, first I went to her house.
28:00Did you go to the house that's got the basement
28:01with like the doll store and everything?
28:03And she- Did you just meet the clone dogs?
28:06There were dogs there.
28:07I didn't think about- Two of them are clones.
28:09She's lovely.
28:10I thought, I just thought, and I would have loved it.
28:12I thought she's going to walk in with a caftan and like a peacock or
28:15just something, something so, because she's Barbra Streisand.
28:19She's funny. She's so funny.
28:21Lovely. Lovely.
28:21She's lovely. She's warm.
28:23But she did keep going, you're on the note, stay on the note.
28:27She's like, when you get on the note, she kept doing this with her beautiful hands.
28:31She's like, when you get on the note, stay on the note.
28:33And I was like, Barbara, if I could do that, or knew what you were talking about.
28:38I said, it's like Michael Jordan being like, all I have to do is take the ball,
28:41put it in the hoop. It's not that hard. And so she kept doing that. And I just was like,
28:47you can do this all day long. We'll just roll them bones and see what happens. But she was delightful.
28:53I had the great honor. I was asked, she asked me if I would do the audio book for her
28:59book,
28:59My Name is Barbara.
29:00Yeah, yeah, yeah.
29:00Would you like to hear what part I read?
29:02Yes.
29:04My Name is Barbara by Barbara Streisand, read to you by the author.
29:14Immortality.
29:15That's fantastic.
29:17Yeah.
29:17Like of everyone in the world.
29:19Yeah. I got paid and everything.
29:21Oh my God.
29:23I would have done it for free.
29:24Oh my God. So would I.
29:26Yeah.
29:27Oh my God.
29:28It's so lovely to have you here.
29:30I mean, it's lovely to be here.
29:31Exactly. I'm so glad we've had this time together.
29:34Oh.
29:34It's been so lovely to have you here. Thank you.
29:36Wish we both had sweaters on.
29:37Yeah.
29:39Please.
29:39You're a modern-day Mr. Rogers.
29:40Oh, you're, well, that's very kind.
29:42Thank you very much.
29:43I think so.
29:43Um, uh, please come again.
29:46I won't be here, but this is a lovely, lovely place.
29:50I'll find you.
29:51Melissa McCarthy, everybody.
29:53We'll be right back with New York Times best-selling author,
29:56Michael Pollan.
30:16Welcome back.
30:18Folks, my next guest tonight is a New York Times best-seller and one of my favorite authors,
30:25whose books include The Omnivore's Dilemma in Defense of Food and How to Change Your Mind.
30:30His new book is A World Appears, A Journey into Consciousness.
30:34Please welcome back to The Late Show, Michael Pollan.
30:53Michael, it's, it's always good to talk to you.
30:56Last time you were here, we talked about psychedelics.
30:58You had a book about psychedelics, and your new book delves even deeper into the recesses of the
31:04mind, explores the subject of consciousness.
31:06Here is the book right here, A World Appears, A Journey to the Consciousness.
31:11I do have a plug, unlike the previous guest.
31:13Exactly.
31:14Sorry.
31:15It's still great.
31:15It's still great to you.
31:16Um, what sets you off on the journey?
31:18Well, the psychedelic experience, actually, was the inspiration.
31:23Psychedelics have a way of kind of smudging the windshield of consciousness.
31:27Most of the time.
31:28I thought the doors of perception would be cleansed.
31:31Didn't Huxley promise us that?
31:32It had the opposite effect.
31:33You just smudged them.
31:34Yes.
31:35And suddenly you realize there is a windshield, and what is that about?
31:38Why is it this way and not that way?
31:40Well, let me say, how do you define consciousness then?
31:43Uh, it's really not that hard.
31:45I mean, people complicate it, but it's basically subjective experience,
31:48or even just experience. You know, you have experience.
31:52Uh, your toaster does not have experience.
31:55Um, unless your consciousness gets so great to include the toaster.
32:01I guess that's theoretically possible.
32:03You'll get there. You'll get there, Michael.
32:05My toaster will get there.
32:07Um, but the other way, the other definition I really like is,
32:11uh, by a philosopher named Thomas Nagel, uh, who said that,
32:15if it is like something to be this creature or that creature,
32:20if it feels like something, you're conscious.
32:23He wrote a great essay called, uh, What Is It Like To Be A Bat?
32:28And even though bats are very different than us,
32:30and they hang upside down most of the day,
32:31and they get around by echolocation, we can sort of imagine that.
32:35We can imagine that they have some kind of experience.
32:38Well, let me ask you a question.
32:39So what is the difference then between awareness,
32:40because I can imagine a bat or almost any creature of any kind,
32:45uh, any living thing having an awareness?
32:47Even plants have an awareness.
32:49They're aware of where the sun is, that sort of thing.
32:51Uh, differentiate between awareness and consciousness.
32:53Is consciousness somewhere along the scale of awareness?
32:55Yeah, I would say that there's a spectrum
32:57that begins with what I would call a sentience.
33:00Um, and that is this basic awareness of your environment,
33:04an ability to tell good changes from bad
33:07and to gravitate toward the good things.
33:08Um, I think everything alive has that.
33:11I think bacteria have that.
33:13Um, and, uh, so I think sentience is the default for life.
33:18Consciousness is the way humans do sentience,
33:21humans and some other animals.
33:23And when you say some other animals,
33:24how many would you include in that?
33:26Like the greater, like, you know, mega fauna, stuff like that, or?
33:30Uh, yes.
33:32Um, mammals, most mammals, uh, some birds, uh, cephalopods, octopuses,
33:39but now, you know, what's happening right now is we're extending,
33:43we're democratizing consciousness to more and more species.
33:46And I think it's bringing us to this interesting Copernican moment.
33:50You know, when Copernicus came along, we, we suddenly realized we weren't the center
33:55of the universe, right?
33:56That the sun did not revolve around us.
33:58And that was like mind blowing to everybody.
34:00Uh, that, that, um, and, and I think we're getting there now.
34:04Cause on the one side, you've got, uh, consciousness now being extended down to
34:09insects and possibly plants, which I, I talked about in the book.
34:13On the other, you have AI coming along.
34:15We have to take a quick break.
34:17We're right back with more Michael Pollan, everybody.
34:19We're right back with the author of the new book, A World Appears.
34:33It's Michael Pollan.
34:34A lot of people are, are worried about AI and consciousness.
34:38And do you share those worries?
34:39Or do you have, do you have your own worries?
34:41I have, I have my own worries.
34:43Well, add, add your worries to the pile.
34:46All right.
34:46Yeah.
34:46There's enough things to be worried about.
34:48So I don't think that AIs will become conscious.
34:52Why not?
34:54Because, well, for a couple of reasons.
34:57The belief that they can become conscious is based on a faulty metaphor.
35:01The metaphor that brains are computers and, uh, and brains are not like computers at all.
35:08Most people in Silicon-
35:09You, my friend, have never read Dianetics.
35:10You're right.
35:11You're right.
35:15Brains, you know, in computers, you have this,
35:17you have this separation between hardware and software, right?
35:21And you can run the same software on any number of different computers.
35:25Computers are interchangeable.
35:27Brains are nothing like that.
35:28Every memory, every experience you had physically rewires your brain, changes the,
35:35the matter of your brain.
35:37So our brains are not interchangeable because we've, we had different life experiences that shape them.
35:44So that's interesting.
35:45So the experience is not necessarily just stored there, but it actually changes the matter.
35:51Oh, it actually, it's the wiring.
35:51The matter which is stored.
35:53Yeah, sure.
35:54And brains get pruned from, you know, when you're young, you have many more connections
35:58and they gradually get pruned.
35:59And, and the way they're pruned depends on your life experience.
36:02So that's one problem.
36:03The other problem is that it appears that consciousness begins not with thought,
36:08higher order thought in the cortex, but with feelings in the brainstem.
36:14And I, you know, machines are really good.
36:17They can think now, but they can't feel.
36:20Do you know, do you know E.E. Cummings since feeling is first?
36:23No.
36:23Since feeling is first, uh, whoever pays attention to the syntax of things will never wholly kiss you.
36:28Holy to be a fool while spring is in the world.
36:31My blood approves.
36:32My lady, lady, I swear by all roses.
36:34The best gesture of my brain is less than your eyelids flutter that says that we are for each other.
36:38Whoa.
36:42But I do, I actually do believe in almost all human behavior, feeling is first.
36:48How do you differentiate between feelings and thoughts?
36:50Because I always thought that feelings are just sort of the unseen and vast connections
36:56between so many thoughts and memories and experiences and our anticipations of the world
37:01that meet like the mycelium under the forest floor where we can't see them
37:06and exchange information between these thoughts, ideas, and memories
37:09and produce this sort of aura that we call a feeling.
37:12Wow.
37:14You're blowing my mind.
37:17I guess I say that to ask the question, what is a feeling?
37:21A feeling is a bodily thing. A feeling is rooted in the body.
37:26Feelings are how the body talks to the brain. The brain's job is to monitor the body.
37:31You know, we forget brains exist to keep bodies alive, not the other way around.
37:34So the brain is tracking what's going on. Are you hungry? How's the temperature?
37:40Are your blood gases? All this kind of stuff. And when things go off and you're out of homeostasis,
37:46a signal comes that is felt by the brain as a problem or something feels really good.
37:54So I think you need a body to have feelings. I don't think you can do feelings without a body.
38:00I think you can't do feelings without having a vulnerability, probably without being mortal.
38:06I mean, the fact that we can suffer, our feelings are rooted in this bodily existence.
38:11And I don't see how machines get there.
38:13Have you spent much time speaking with, you know, digital personas like Claude or Gemini or ChatGP2?
38:21Because I literally have not typed one thing into any of them.
38:24Well, it's an interesting experience. It's very seductive.
38:28They, you know, first of all, they talk to us in the first person. It's really spooky.
38:33Oh, they have an eye.
38:34They have an eye. And, you know, they're good for some things.
38:37I've used them in research and sometimes the results are just so wrong.
38:41It's like laughable and you can't understand how they, and they call that a hallucination.
38:45Yes.
38:46Which implies a consciousness.
38:49Sure.
38:50But I really think that these chatbots, you know, 72% of teenagers in America now turn to AI for
38:59companionship.
39:0170%?
39:0272%.
39:03I think this is a real problem. Even though chatbots are not going to become conscious,
39:08they're going to fool a lot of people. And that's just as bad.
39:11Yeah. Well, uh, Michael, before you go, I just want to say thank you for being here.
39:16I have been talking to you for 20 years.
39:19Yeah. From the old show.
39:20You were one of my favorite guests on the old show. You're still one of my favorite guests here.
39:23Whenever I would see your name on a card up on the board of the people I got to talk
39:27to that week,
39:27I always got happy and excited that I knew we'd have a great conversation.
39:31I just want to thank you for all those conversations the last 20 years.
39:34Well, thank you.
39:34Thank you for being here.
39:37A World Appears, A Journey Into Consciousness is available next Tuesday.
39:41It's Michael Pollan, everybody. We'll be right back.
40:05That's it for The Late Show, everybody. Tune in next week.
40:09We'll be live following the State of the Union. Good night.
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