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The Algorithm of Affection: AI and the Future of Love
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00:01Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
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05:53and I was listening to a certain type of music
05:56and I would meet someone
05:57who was in the same section
05:59we could start having a conversation
06:01there was a kind of a contextual plot
06:04if I was in the queue for a movie
06:06if I was in a bookstore
06:08what you don't have on the app
06:11is the context
06:13the app basically takes you away from your life
06:17into a secluded space
06:19where nobody knows anything about you
06:21and that is very very new in terms of dating in life
06:25but that's just the first step
06:27I mean I think when Justin says it's the introduction
06:30it is just the beginning of a whole long story
06:33that starts with dating, falling in love, having a relationship
06:37etc etc all the way to starting again
06:41but what I always emphasize
06:45is the creation of a context
06:48which is actually part of what we try to do together
06:51we just created a new series of prompts
06:54that is called Your World
06:55of which the questions are not just traits about yourself
06:59but what is the world you're living in
07:01if I meet you
07:03what are the other people
07:05what are the stories, the tastes
07:07and all of that
07:07that I will be encountering through this
07:10and so relationships take place in a context
07:14relationships are stories
07:16and we need to hold on to the story
07:20and it's interesting that you touch on this authenticity as well
07:24being really important
07:25I mean I want to talk also about the trust in the age of AI
07:30both in the systems and in the people behind the profiles
07:34I mean we're living in a world where AI can create deep fake imagery in a matter of seconds
07:39and it's becoming increasingly difficult to tell what's real
07:42so even with dating apps
07:45some profiles may not be actively false
07:47but you know they may be seeing the rise of sort of curated profiles
07:51AI generated prompts
07:53and AI generated pictures
07:56and some people are outsourcing the initial talking phase of these
08:00as well to chatbots
08:02so I'm wondering
08:05do we run the risk here of kind of falling for the avatar
08:08rather than the person behind the profile
08:10and what does that do to trust in these early stages of relationships
08:14well I think there are very clear lines between
08:18again coaching like I said before
08:20so if someone
08:22we were just talking a bit before about how a lot of times
08:25someone will write as a first message
08:29you know hey what's up
08:31and that doesn't really
08:33you have all this
08:33you actually do have quite a bit of context right
08:36it's a different type of context on a dating app
08:37but especially on Hinge
08:38we give you six photos and three prompts
08:41there's like all these different threads
08:42where you can start a conversation
08:44and so nudging someone in the right direction
08:47to say more than hey what's up
08:50is great
08:51like we want to coach people towards opening up a bit more
08:53being a bit more vulnerable
08:56paying a bit more attention
08:57showing a bit more interest
08:58that's all great
08:59what we don't want to do is go to a world
09:01where we're putting words in your mouth
09:02where we're writing your messages for you
09:06and then you just have two chatbot agents
09:08chatting back and forth
09:09and then where you like completely lose the human
09:12in the interaction
09:12and the joy is ultimately in the journey of finding a relationship
09:17and finding a partner
09:20so I think the trick is to stay in the world of coaching
09:23nudging
09:24helping people bring more of their authentic selves to the surface
09:27giving them the permission to do that
09:29giving them the tools to do that
09:30but not going so far as to
09:33as to again have someone like create your profile or chat for you
09:38because at the end of the day it doesn't work
09:40because you have to show up on the date
09:42like you are going to have to eventually meet with this person
09:44in real life
09:46and if you're misrepresenting yourself in any way
09:49it simply won't work
09:50and we've seen this with the rise and fall of things like
09:52Instagram filters
09:53which were very big
09:54in like the early 2010s
09:57because
09:58and now everyone moved back towards authenticity
10:00because if everyone starts filtering their photos
10:02you kind of lose a sense of
10:03who they are
10:07I think I want to take this a little bit in a different direction
10:11because when you talk about trust
10:13you also have to talk about risk
10:16if you de-risk love too much
10:18you basically can't feel the true feeling of love
10:22what happens with our predictive technologies at this point
10:26is that they are basically telling me
10:30not just who to date
10:31they're also telling me what to eat
10:33where to go
10:33what to watch
10:34they promise me a frictionless life
10:37that is polished with perfection
10:39where I don't have to take risks
10:42I don't have to experiment
10:43I don't have to learn from the bad choices that I made
10:47I don't have to deal with the mystery
10:49that follows the discovery
10:50that is followed by discovery
10:52and what it actually does
10:55is less
10:56my concern is less
10:57the relationship to the machine or to the app
11:00my concern is that it is warping our expectations amongst humans
11:05because we are now expecting people to act with that kind of predictability
11:10and that kind of perfection
11:12and when we encounter frustration or conflict or disappointment
11:17we are stumped
11:18we don't know what to do
11:20I'm more, you know, I work on relationships
11:24so I'm concerned with what do we do to let people continue
11:27deal with the messiness of human life
11:30what do you do with that aspect of caretaking
11:34the less shiny aspects of intimacy
11:37when you become accustomed to always-on, on-demand
11:41frictionless delivery of your every delight
11:44yeah, I think that that is
11:48we very much agree on this
11:49and there are definitely areas to remove friction in life
11:53and even maybe within parts of the dating process
11:56but there are also parts where
11:57that's just not
11:59it's not good for us
12:00like the journey is part of the joy of finding a relationship
12:05and frankly it's just not possible
12:07like love is messy and complicated
12:10people are messy and complicated
12:12and it's just not the same as ordering groceries on Instacart
12:17finding a partner
12:18and it's just
12:19I think we really do get our expectations set
12:23because we go on TikTok
12:24and it's like this understands my taste so well
12:27why can't my dating app understand my taste as well as my TikTok feed
12:32and the answer is
12:34because people are not bits of media
12:37we can't take someone and copy them 10,000 times
12:41and show them to everyone
12:42your TikTok videos don't have to like you back
12:45there's a much more complex nuance dynamic
12:49when it comes to trying to match people up
12:51and people do bring this kind of shopping mentality
12:54they have their checklist of here are the things that I need in a partner
12:58and that's not
12:59we try to
13:00at least with Hinge
13:01we really try to dislodge people from that kind of mindset
13:04getting them to slow down a little bit
13:06getting them to be more thoughtful in their approach
13:08and remove that expectation that I'm shopping for the perfect partner
13:14I think we're not just data points looking for alignment
13:18we're souls looking for connection
13:21that's very different
13:22it's not difficult to reach people
13:25but it's a lot more difficult to be present with people
13:28that's ultimately the goal of what people want to experience in relationships
13:34if the app or if the AI helps us do so
13:37it's great
13:38if it actually replaces it
13:41if it doesn't foster intimacy
13:43but it simulates it
13:45it simulates empathy
13:46it simulates an understanding
13:49that is very much a one directional relationship
13:52in which accountability is no longer a part of the relationship
13:56then the AI is problematic
13:58but it's problematic because the design is problematic
14:01because the person who is creating it
14:04has a very warped understanding of what goes into relationships
14:08not what goes into tech
14:10and I know that one thing that Hinge is really keen on
14:13is to get you off the apps
14:14and to meet people in real life
14:16and the more we kind of rely on the digital world for dating
14:20how can you sort of ease some of the friction
14:23of jumping from that digital talking
14:26to actually meeting each other in real life
14:30you know we as we say
14:32we're the dating app that's designed to be deleted
14:34like we want to help you meet your person
14:36we want to help you get offline as quickly as possible
14:38I still think there probably is quite a lot of innovation to occur post-match
14:44a lot of time is spent figuring out like the algorithm
14:48and can we get two people to match
14:50but then a lot of people struggle to get from the match
14:52out to the first date
14:54and helping people understand expectations
14:59helping people
14:59some people like to move very quickly
15:01like let's just move off to a date right now
15:03some people like to chat for a little bit
15:06some people wait way too long
15:07and they spend time like chatting
15:09and they don't realize that
15:10okay after 40 or 50 messages
15:12you can definitely go ahead
15:13and just like ask this person to meet up now
15:15and giving people once again
15:17the coaching and the nudging
15:19which can be highly personalized
15:21in a world of AI
15:22to just again get people
15:25off the app experience
15:26which we actually want to do
15:28believe it or not
15:28as an app
15:29we want you off our app experience
15:31as quickly as possible
15:32so that you can actually be out on that date
15:34experiencing what can only be experienced
15:37in the kind of high fidelity
15:39in real life
15:41human to human connection
15:45so I think that one of the basic issues
15:51of generally of the romantic consumerism
15:55of which AI is a piece of it
15:58is that it is highly performative
16:01now people always performed in dating
16:04they made themselves look good
16:06they took you to a nice place
16:08I mean it's part of fawning
16:09fawning is part of attracting
16:11so that is not in and of itself
16:13a new behavior for us mammals
16:16but there is a level of consumerism
16:19that has taken
16:20that has reached epic proportions
16:23I mean the amount of swiping
16:25the amount of people
16:26the sheer number of it
16:28the sheer FOMO that is created
16:30that accompanies it
16:31is not really helpful
16:32combine that
16:34with quick judgment
16:35quick judgment
16:37because I take one snapshot at you
16:40you were telling me
16:41I thought it was 15 seconds
16:43he tells me it's 3 seconds average
16:44this is a lot
16:45this is fast
16:47in 3 seconds
16:48you know
16:49hundreds of those
16:50is a
16:51so then there's the judgment
16:53and then there is
16:56the kind of
16:58because it's so performative
17:00the slightest things
17:01I will say
17:01that are a little bit more personal
17:03are instantly experienced
17:05as vulnerable
17:05we've never talked so much
17:07about vulnerability
17:08because we are constantly
17:10in performance mode
17:11so the minute you say
17:13something real
17:14you have to feel vulnerable
17:16so
17:16then the date
17:18becomes a real
17:19treacherous thing
17:20right
17:21and for many people
17:22the date
17:23is a job interview
17:25also
17:26you go
17:26and you talk
17:27in a noisy bar
17:28and you have a conversation
17:29and you ask a series of questions
17:30rather than
17:31you do something
17:33that's an activity
17:34an experience
17:35it's a plot
17:35you bring the person
17:37to something
17:37you were going to do anyway
17:38with some friends
17:40so that it's integrated
17:41in your life
17:42so that if it doesn't work well
17:44you didn't leave your life
17:45to go check on the date
17:48it didn't work
17:49then you come back
17:50empty handed
17:50to your life
17:51and to your friends
17:52to report
17:52that you had three dates
17:54this week
17:55and nothing happened
17:57I don't know
17:58where people think
17:59that the juices
18:00can flow
18:00in that kind of a context
18:05yeah
18:05and I think it is
18:08we're within a very broad
18:10cultural context
18:11which you're referencing
18:12yes
18:13and I think that
18:15the design decisions
18:16that get made
18:17made in dating apps
18:19in social media
18:20more broadly
18:21have giant impacts
18:23it's a feedback loop
18:25and what we are
18:26at least trying to do
18:27at Hinge
18:27and this is why
18:28I think we partner
18:29so well together
18:30is that
18:31we are trying to make
18:32those micro design decisions
18:34that dislodge people
18:36as much as we can
18:37from flattening people
18:40and treating them
18:41like shopping items
18:42we moved away
18:44and Hinge
18:44pioneered the path
18:45of moving away
18:46from judging a person
18:48based on a single photo
18:50using the swipe feature
18:51to send them to the left
18:52or the right
18:52and making that
18:54as the determination
18:56of whether you're going
18:57to meet someone or not
18:58moving to a world
18:59where we dimensionalize people
19:01you have to add six photos
19:02you have to add three prompts
19:03if you like someone
19:04they can't all be with a fish
19:06yeah
19:07and you actually have to like
19:09something about someone
19:10you don't have to like someone
19:12to know if they liked you back
19:13we just tell you
19:13we try to
19:14we're trying to
19:15you know
19:15not gamify the experience
19:17we're trying to really make it
19:18a human
19:19intimate experience
19:20yes
19:21and as much as we possibly can
19:23while also still being palatable
19:24to the way people expect
19:26to interact today
19:28and then
19:28I just also want to look ahead a bit
19:30so I guess from both of you
19:32in the next five to ten years
19:33how much do you think AI
19:35is going to change
19:36the way we date
19:37and relate
19:38and what might surprise us
19:40about that future
19:43I think
19:44when you ask me a question
19:46like this
19:46that I am
19:47playing in a kiddie pool
19:49while a tidal wave
19:51is coming at me
19:53and
19:54I have no idea
19:55but what I know
19:56is that it's going to be big
19:58and bigger than anything
19:59any of us can imagine
20:00even the ones
20:02who are creating it
20:04so
20:05we'll
20:06if human beings
20:07continue to exist
20:08we
20:09as we are
20:10or a version of this
20:11we will
20:12you know
20:12we have mutated
20:13more than once
20:14in our history
20:15it's not the first time
20:16we are
20:17we don't like it
20:18because we kind of
20:19you know
20:21are used to this form
20:22of what it means
20:23to be human
20:23if we keep this
20:25as the form
20:25we will still be wired
20:27for connection
20:28we will still need love
20:30we will still need
20:31to learn
20:32that in our experience
20:33of relationships
20:34rejection is building
20:36it is part of what
20:38you experience
20:38conflict is building
20:40frustration is building
20:42desire
20:43and the paradoxes
20:44of desire
20:45are building
20:46that these
20:47key features
20:49of our romantic life
20:50and our relationship life
20:52in general
20:52will not disappear
20:55I do think
20:57that what will disappear
20:59is that
21:00tech is designed
21:02to solve a problem
21:04and tech often
21:05looks at relationships
21:07as a problem
21:08to be solved
21:08but relationships
21:10are complex creatures
21:12that are often
21:13more paradoxes
21:14that you need to manage
21:16than problems
21:17that you need to solve
21:18and that's where
21:19they don't connect
21:20well
21:20this is what you said
21:22in the beginning
21:22relationships are complex
21:24and they don't always
21:25have a right and wrong answer
21:27much of our relational life
21:29is about holding
21:30contradictions
21:30holding polarities
21:32of two feelings
21:33that coexist
21:33at the same time
21:35and not one
21:36that needs to wipe
21:37out the other
21:38and so
21:39my concern
21:40in relationship
21:41world
21:42is how
21:43to have
21:43technology
21:44that does not
21:45increase polarization
21:48not just
21:49that doesn't
21:49hamper relationships
21:50but that doesn't
21:51increase polarization
21:55yeah
21:55I would say
21:56that there's
21:57it's not going to look
21:58one way
21:59in five to ten years
22:00AI is an incredibly
22:01powerful technology
22:02it's going to be
22:03hugely disruptive
22:03to a whole lot
22:04of areas in our lives
22:05and I think
22:06you're going to see
22:06a whole
22:08diverse
22:10set of ways
22:10that it's going to be
22:11impacting
22:12human relationships
22:13and there's going to be
22:14a lot of options
22:15on the table
22:16for each of us
22:16as individuals
22:17to start
22:18making decisions
22:19like what are we
22:20going to participate in
22:20and what are we
22:21not going to participate in
22:22everything from
22:24AI
22:25you know
22:25girlfriends
22:25and boyfriends
22:26that want to become
22:28your companion
22:29and we have
22:30like
22:30which I think
22:31is a very dangerous path
22:32we won't have time
22:33to go deeply into that
22:34but
22:35there's going to be
22:36there's going to be
22:38you know
22:39in some ways
22:39I think it's going to
22:40make dating apps
22:41much much better
22:42I think we're going to
22:43move away from the world
22:44of feeling like you're
22:44on a social platform
22:46hunting through
22:47hundreds if not
22:48thousands of people
22:48to find your person
22:49to a world where you
22:50feel like you're working
22:51with a personal matchmaker
22:52and you're actually
22:54just giving a better
22:54sense of who you are
22:55and we can make
22:56much more thoughtful
22:56targeted introductions
22:59but it's going to
23:00change the broader
23:00context of humans
23:01and relationships
23:02and what our expectations
23:03are in relationships
23:05and it's so important
23:06for us I think
23:07to be building
23:07our own personal sense
23:09of values and wisdom
23:11and what are we going
23:12to participate in
23:12and what are we not
23:13going to participate in
23:14because if we just
23:15leave it to the creators
23:16of this technology
23:17I can tell you
23:18I know a lot of them
23:19you don't want to leave
23:20it to the creators
23:20of a lot of these
23:21technologies because
23:23if we look at the way
23:24social media happened
23:26as an example
23:28the optimization function
23:29was engagement
23:30and retention
23:31and not belonging
23:32and connection
23:32and we saw what that
23:33did to people's
23:34mental health
23:35to political polarization
23:36and to everything else
23:37and AI is going to be
23:38a supercharged version
23:39of that
23:40and so you need
23:41to be paying attention
23:42to companies
23:42that are
23:44like what are they
23:45optimizing for
23:46Hinge is optimizing
23:47for getting you
23:48on great dates
23:48not spending time
23:49in the app
23:50it can be very powerful
23:51for that
23:51it can be equally powerful
23:53for getting people
23:54like stuck into loops
23:56okay
23:56I think that's a perfect
23:57note to end on
23:58and thanks so much
24:00to both of you
24:01for joining me today
24:01and everyone else
24:02for listening
24:02enjoy the rest
24:04thank you
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