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Harnessing the Tides: Innovation at the Ocean's Edge
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TechnologieTranscription
00:00Hello, good afternoon everybody and welcome to this next conversation we're about to have about harnessing the tides, innovation at
00:09the ocean's edge.
00:10My name is Oliver Smith, I'm the news editor of Fortune magazine based in London and it's my pleasure to
00:17host this conversation.
00:18As a journalist I get a lot of pitches and a lot of interesting ideas sent my way.
00:24Most of them it's quite easy to spot the flaws and the problems in the concept.
00:29When I came across Monesto and the work that's being done here, I think what really impressed me was this
00:35isn't just a concept and an idea that we're going to talk about.
00:38This is an actual product, it's a business and it's actually in the real world generating energy which we are
00:45going to talk about.
00:46But first of all, let me kindly introduce my panellist, Buntarek Wester, who's the chief technology officer of Monesto.
00:54Welcome Buntarek, it's a pleasure to have you here today.
00:58I think we've got a slide, first of all, that we can start with.
01:01If we can bring our slides up onto the screen.
01:06Can we see that? Here we go.
01:08Now, it's fantastic to be speaking with you today.
01:10Now, first of all, before we dive into the technology itself, which people can start to see on the screen
01:15here,
01:16how did you get involved in Monesto, in this project?
01:21Well, thank you for having me. It's been a great experience to be walking through and looking at all these
01:27fantastic technologies that are being materializing, not just ours.
01:32So, yeah, I grew up by the ocean, on the ocean, studied naval architecture, went to the oil business, as
01:44you do in Norway, where I'm from.
01:47And at some point, I guess, I thought, well, I'm going to look back when I retire at my career,
01:56realizing that I did the most, the richest company in the world is even richer.
02:01Not really. And out of sort of nowhere, this opportunity revealed itself, Monesto, in Gothenburg, where I live, roughly 10
02:12years ago.
02:13And I do like challenges in my life. And I was looking at this. This is the irresistible challenge. So
02:21I could just, I couldn't resist it.
02:24Amazing. So from the oil sector into renewable energy, it's a big jump, but I'm glad you made it.
02:29Now, I'm sure everyone's looking at the picture on the screen and wondering exactly what's going on here.
02:35So, first of all, could you walk us through what we're looking at and tell us a bit about how
02:40Monesto's technology works?
02:43Yes. Now, what you're looking at on the screen is one of our dragon kites, which is being towed out
02:50to installation.
02:51And what it does is harnessing. Oh, here we go. We can play this video, I guess.
03:05What our machine does is effectively kite surfing underwater.
03:12So, it's flying in a figure of eight. As you can see here, this is a real-time cross-current.
03:20So, although it looks like it's not moving very quickly here. This is a computer rendering. We can't see it,
03:27unfortunately.
03:28But it's approximately 15, 16 knots. So, speed is crucial when you're dealing with power generation.
03:39So, you have a cubical relationship of speed through the turbine.
03:43So, if you can make either the current go quickly by installing your machine in a hotspot or by making
03:50the machine moving much faster,
03:52you're getting a much higher efficiency factor out of it.
03:58So, we have a glide ratio, which means that we're flying five to six times, a glide ratio five to
04:04six, faster than the incoming current.
04:06So, if you have, say, four knots of incoming current, we can do up to, do the math, 20 knots
04:16maybe.
04:18And the total result is on a machine that's very small.
04:23So, what you can see here to the upper left is also computer rendering.
04:29It shows you where it is on the figure eight.
04:33And now we jump to the video.
04:38So, what we can see here, these are the kites being deployed, being lifted and taken out to be put
04:45into the water.
04:46Correct.
04:48So, what this video is, is from February last year on the Faroe Islands, when we installed the Dragon 12,
04:55which is a 1.2 megawatt generating device.
04:59And the 12 stands for a 12 meter wingspan.
05:02So, although it looks very large, this is actually a really small machine.
05:07And it only weighs 27, 28 tons.
05:10So, you're looking at roughly 20 tons per megawatt of power.
05:16And that is an incredibly impressive number.
05:20And the operation that you see, it only takes us a few hours to take the machine from its position
05:28on shore.
05:29We lift it into the water, as you can see, and then we tow it out, and it's all done
05:33in a matter of hours.
05:35So, we can do this effectively at every tide.
05:40We don't do it with a big one, but with the smaller ones, we can do it at every tide.
05:44So, that's four times a day, 365 days a year.
05:48So, it's an operational benefit as well.
05:51And is this a lightweight?
05:54It looks very heavy, because it's big.
05:56But is this quite lightweight, actually?
05:58This is very lightweight.
06:01So, most people, when they see a turbine or a power producing device,
06:06you see it from distance, or it's hard to ever see it at all.
06:09And they look very small, because you're miles away.
06:12We have the benefit of being close and hugging them if we want to.
06:17But this is a very small machine.
06:21So, the comparative to a wind turbine, say, would have 80 meter long blades, times three.
06:31And much heavier.
06:34And we can see it there being sort of sunk into the water.
06:38This is operating at the bottom of the water, isn't it?
06:42Although it might look like it's near the surface at the moment,
06:44these are capturing those subsea currents.
06:49So, right down deep under the water.
06:50How deep are they?
06:52Well, in this particular spot, we have roughly 80 meters of water from the surface to the sea floor.
06:56And it's attached to the sea floor.
06:58And they will try to fly it as perpendicular to the flow as possible.
07:02Even though the current might move faster, closer to the surface,
07:06you have a much better approach angle, the further down you come to the attachment point.
07:10So, at operation, roughly 40 to 50 meters below the surface.
07:16So, you can move ships over and you won't notice that the systems are there.
07:21Interesting. Thank you.
07:22So, I hope everyone in the audience has a good grasp of the technology we're talking about.
07:25I think it's really important that you understand where we are in the sea and what we're talking about.
07:31But, Eric, this is a very novel concept. This is quite unusual.
07:35Where did the idea for Menester and this technology come from?
07:40Well, it originated back in 2007 from SAAB, which is a Swedish military equipment.
07:51They made like aircraft, submarines, etc.
07:54And they realized that, okay, this invention is good, but it's not for them.
07:58So, they actually handed it over to the university in Gothenburg, where it's taken steps,
08:03became a company through diploma thesis, etc.
08:06And now to a relatively large startup, if you want to call it.
08:11Although we're listed even on the stock exchange.
08:13So, the leftmost image here is the diploma thesis.
08:17It's a 70 centimeter kite that was just towed behind the rowing boat.
08:22And then to the right, you see the Dragon 12.
08:25So, technically the same principle, but roughly 15 years later.
08:30So, we're going from showing the principle.
08:32They got investors on board to now producing megawatt power to the fairways grid.
08:41Behind backstage, we were talking about the evolution of the company.
08:44You referred to it as a startup a few times.
08:46But, as you say, the business was founded back in...
08:502008.
08:512008.
08:52And is now listed on the stock exchange.
08:54So, we're calling it a startup, but it's quite a mature startup if that.
08:58And what we're talking about here isn't just theoretical.
09:02Minestro has sites, not just test sites, but actually sites in operation around the world today.
09:08Can you tell us about those?
09:09Well, the site we have in the Faroe Islands is the only site that we're grid connecting at the moment.
09:18We've been in the...
09:20The lower left one is from the Northern Island, where we had a test site for a while.
09:24We tested from barge.
09:26This shows the journey a little bit.
09:29And then we had an intermediate size kite system at the lower right, but also on the Faroe Islands.
09:35So, we've been operating outside of Holy Head and Holy Head Deep in Wales.
09:40And we're looking around to deploy...
09:45Effectively, we can deploy almost anywhere in the world.
09:48And one of the benefits of our technology is that we don't need the same flow speed as most other
09:56technologies does.
09:57We target what we call low flow.
10:00And you have a much larger low flow market than you have these medium or hotspot sites.
10:07So, in total, we're looking at the markets that's comparable to roughly 1.5 times the current nuclear capacity installed
10:17today globally.
10:18So, there's a huge opportunity for this technology and these products to be rolled out.
10:23So, on the Faroe Islands, they've got some quite ambitious goals to adopt renewable energy.
10:29How does Monesto's project tie into that?
10:32What is their ambition?
10:33What is your ambition for that project?
10:36Yeah.
10:37The Faroe Islands, they're a relatively small community, 50,000 people or so.
10:46And they have one very, I would say, forward-leaning and very...
10:52I don't even know how to say it in English, but they're very...
10:55Progressive?
10:56Progressive, yeah.
10:57A utility or a SEV that controls all the way from production through distribution to local homes.
11:06And they have an ambition to become 100% renewable by 2030 on the Faroe Islands.
11:11They have roughly 50% diesel today and a lot of wind, of course.
11:18And by implementing relatively small contribution from Tidal, maybe 10 to 20 megawatts,
11:27we will be able to show system benefits by not having to invest in higher, say, battery systems or other
11:36things.
11:37The tidal power is like clockwork.
11:40It's very predictable, although you have periods where it's not operating because the tide is turning.
11:45You know when that's going to happen.
11:47And also on the Faroe Islands, you have these different straights, so they're phase-shifted.
11:52So when it stops in one straight, it's full power in another one.
11:57So by having them distributed throughout on the islands, we can be producing 24-7, very predictably.
12:06So we will be able to show system benefits already at 10 megawatts.
12:12Amazing.
12:13I think that predictability is really key because when we talk about solar or we talk about wind energy,
12:20the challenge is always the lack of predictability and the flows and fluctuations in that production
12:26and how do you deal with that, whereas tidal energy has the advantage of not having that unpredictability.
12:33Tell us a bit more about what makes this renewable energy technology special versus alternatives that are out there.
12:41Maybe I've just named a few of them, but could you name some more?
12:44Well, I think it's fantastic that we see the breakthrough of other renewable energy sources.
12:53Although we can regard this as competition, it shows that it's working.
12:59And people are actually, you can actually now invest in it and start to make money out of it, which
13:02I think is a key to any of this.
13:05You can have the best looking technology in the world if it doesn't, at the end of the day, become
13:11economic.
13:12It has no real value.
13:14So that's really what we're trying to do.
13:19And if you look at, so our selling points would be the predictability.
13:26And also actually the cost of energy will eventually come down because the material that we need to produce these
13:33machines
13:33and the way they can be produced because they're small, you can manufacture them almost as you can manufacture cars.
13:41The cost of making them will become considerably cheaper.
13:46And then you know when this energy is going to come out, as you said.
13:50If you look at other tidal technologies, the main difference I would say is that our machine is moving, which
14:00of course adds some complexity.
14:02But it also makes them much, much smaller.
14:07So you're talking 20 times lighter maybe.
14:12And ultimately you have to pay for that material.
14:15And that's where we think or we know that we have the upper hand.
14:20Interesting.
14:21When I look at the pictures of this being under the water, I guess one of the questions I have,
14:26and maybe the audience have as well, is about the impact that these kites flying around deep under the water
14:32might have on, say, sea life or local fishing or shipping.
14:37Tell us a bit about what your thoughts are on those challenges and is that a challenge?
14:42It absolutely is a challenge.
14:44Now, first of all, when you're doing something that hasn't been done before,
14:47to get somebody to actually allow you to do that, as nobody's done before in their own backyard,
14:54takes sometimes a little bit of, not persuasion perhaps, but it's a dialogue that needs to take its time.
15:02And we, if you take the shipping bit first, these systems cannot reach the surface unless we detach them on
15:13purpose with this special tool that we use.
15:16So there is always at least, say, 10 meters or so of surface clearance, and that's when the system is
15:21not moving.
15:22When it's flying, it's 30, 40, 50 meters below.
15:25So that takes care of the shipping aspect.
15:28And if you have an area with larger ships than that, then that goes into your license considerations and you
15:35install a system that corresponds with those requirements.
15:38When it comes to mammals, there is a lot of research going on, not only for us, but in general
15:47with the marine energy, I would say.
15:49And there hasn't been a single scientific evidence showing that it has a negative impact.
15:56Actually, in some cases, we see that the biodiversity has improved as a result of what we do.
16:02But we do not want to have any negative impact.
16:08So we do also do a lot of measuring on birds, the diving birds, for example.
16:15We have actually some seals equipped with GPS beacons to see how these things, how they relate to our devices.
16:24And we do sound profiles on machines, and we can fine tune them if we have to, stay on the
16:31surf and stay away from certain frequencies, etc.
16:33But so far, that's been all no problem.
16:36And we've been flying kites since 2012, and the ocean haven't had a single incident yet.
16:43Now on fishing, of course, it's going to be very hard to fish where you have a kite.
16:48But you will eventually catch a kite, and I don't think neither the fisherman or whoever owns the machine will
16:55be very happy.
16:56But in most cases, I would say, that we have looked at, fishing, or at least professional fishing, does not
17:03happen in these areas.
17:04So, so far, it's been a non-issue.
17:06But you do have to talk with the local communities if they have leisure fishing or these kinds of things
17:13to get them to understand on the certain areas you may have to avoid.
17:16But that's not unlike any other user of the sea, really.
17:21Super interesting.
17:22Obviously, your role as CTO has been about developing this technology and working on the innovations that were needed to
17:29bring it to life.
17:30And not just bring it to life, but also make sure that it's easy to maintain, that it's long-lasting,
17:36that it doesn't break down or wear down over time.
17:39Can you tell us a little bit about what your team has had to do to achieve the most breakthroughs?
17:44Where have you had to do the most innovation to create this technology?
17:48Well, if you look at these images, they're sort of a little bit old, as where the magic has been
17:55dealt with.
17:56So, that's the control system.
17:58So, the machine has a brain, or at least it has a computer control system in it that allows it
18:04to do, to make its decision on what to do next.
18:07Where to do the rudders, where I'm aiming it, and so forth.
18:11We just basically tell it to be on or off.
18:15That's the only thing you can do.
18:17Now, once that's done, there is a number of other things, which is really, really important when you deal with
18:24ocean energy.
18:25Because doing things in the ocean is incredibly expensive.
18:30If you do it, if you have to do it often, or if you have to get a very big
18:35vessel in, or in bad weather, or whatever.
18:43So, we have spent almost as much time in these, say, off-kite systems.
18:51Some of these things you can see here.
18:52How you transport them in standard containers.
18:55We can install and recover without RVs, without divers.
18:59We do everything from the surface, using a very small boat, as you can see here.
19:05And we've also spent quite some effort in getting these modules constructed in a way, so they can be manufactured
19:13by,
19:14I wouldn't say anybody, but to competition and get them fabricated by people who know how to fabricate things cost
19:24efficiently.
19:25And then, when we need to maintain the system, we go out, we recover it.
19:30You can install another system in the meantime, and you do all the work onshore.
19:36That's, of course, that operation itself is executed in around about 90 minutes.
19:46And then, all in all, these things are as important as the basic technology function, actually.
19:58To find the big cost hitters and get rid of them.
20:02And I say that's probably where the most inventions have been going on, actually, believe it or not.
20:08And that cost, that maintenance side of it, is a big piece when it comes to considering the commercial viability
20:15of these projects and these deployments that you're doing.
20:19Has Monesto now reached, in your opinion, the point of commercial viability?
20:25What's needed, or if not, what is needed to get there?
20:29So, the technology, we've been able to get the technology to a commercial level in terms of what it can
20:37perform.
20:38There is no, it does exactly what we simulate and expect it to do.
20:44So, when you turn knobs in the computer, and you turn the same knob in the reality, you get exactly
20:50the result that you want.
20:52And that's very, very comfortable.
20:55Now, in terms of getting that commercialized, you need volume.
20:59So, our first step is to do a 10 megawatt array that we're now building up a project consortium to
21:07finance and fund on the Faroe Islands to get the full array demonstrator, 10 megawatts at the first stage.
21:15And at the Faroe Islands, we can bring this to around about 200.
21:19But already at 10, we will be able to show system effects, which wouldn't be possible in, say, continental Europe,
21:28because 10 megawatts, you won't even notice.
21:31But at the Faroe Islands, you will definitely will.
21:33So, I've got a challenging question.
21:36Obviously, with the Faroe Islands, you've got a very specific use case because of the small population and the small
21:40demand, you can have an oversized impact on the grid there.
21:45Are there other locations like that where you think you can have a similar effect, small communities where Minesto can
21:52really become a big part of their energy story?
21:56Definitely, maybe not in Europe so much.
21:58But if you look in Southeast Asia, for example, there is a phenomenal big market for us.
22:04You can even have places where there hardly electricity at all.
22:07There is all fuel, diesel or coal driven, where this could be a real deal breaker, actually.
22:16Interesting.
22:17We've only got a few minutes left, and I want to finish off just by asking you about your plans
22:22and Minesto's plans for the rest of 25 and beyond.
22:25You've mentioned some of the things you're currently working on.
22:28What are your current focuses?
22:32So, currently, we're working most with UCR2 kites here up in the upper right, the Dragon 12, and we have
22:40a couple of the Dragon 4s.
22:42So, we're doing various configuration tests on those.
22:47We might replace certain hardware on the Tether, for example, to see the impact.
22:52We do software upgrades, which you can do remotely.
22:56And start and build.
22:59We need to build runtime.
23:00We need to build confidence in the technology.
23:02So, you have a demonstration plant that you can demonstrate, and people can see the meters that are going.
23:11So, that's the main priority.
23:13And, of course, we have some development that are going on in the background.
23:17I can't show them to you.
23:18I'm sorry.
23:19Of course, we have 25 engineers or so that are working flat out on the next generation systems.
23:27And, in the meantime, we run the codes that we currently have.
23:33Fantastic.
23:34Thank you so much.
23:35At the very start, I said that Monesto, what impressed me when I did my research into the project was
23:41that it's not just a concept.
23:43It's a very full-fleshed out idea that's being deployed and being used to generate energy in the real world,
23:51which is quite special.
23:53So, can I get a very warm round of applause for Bernt Eric?
23:56Thank you.
23:57Thank you.
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