- il y a 2 semaines
Splitting Atoms Should We Go Nuclear
Catégorie
🤖
TechnologieTranscription
00:00So, hi everyone, I'm really pleased that we're going to discuss about, well, nuclear, but also SMR and AMR.
00:10First, Elisabeth, I would like you to just make a quick introduction on you, and then I'll make a little
00:16introduction.
00:17Go ahead.
00:19Thank you, thank you, Dimitri, thank you for all of you for being here.
00:22I'm Elisabeth Rizzotti, I'm Franco-Italian, so half and half.
00:26I'm a nuclear physicist, and I'm the co-founder of our amazing startup, we launched two and a half years
00:35ago, Nucleo.
00:36It's a small modular reactor based on LFR production, but we will talk about this.
00:43And put the mic.
00:45Okay, on my side, so I'm Dimitri Carbonell, I'm a founder of Alibosphere that helps companies in adapting climate change.
00:52I'm also on energy and CSRD, I've written a book, also, that's called 2050, Crash or Renaissance.
01:01So, I'm kind of optimistic, so even if there's a lot of climate change that will happen, I hope that
01:08we're going to minute it.
01:09And last, I'm also a spokesperson for the Shifters, that is linked with the association, the SHIFT project.
01:16Just before, Elisabeth, I'll make a quick introduction about nuclear.
01:22You know, after a long, I would say, winter of nuclear development, it seems we just started a new area.
01:31As we grapple the urgent need to decarbonize, we need to promote nuclear energy solutions, but also in tandem, of
01:38course, with renewable energy.
01:40Despite projection that renewable energy will constitute about 90% of electricity supply by 2050,
01:50the International Energy Agency envisions a substantial increase in nuclear power capacity,
01:58which is expected to double by 2050.
02:03This would represent around 8% of the energy mix by 2050.
02:08It's a slight decrease from the current 10%.
02:11And in fact, there's one reason for that.
02:14It's because there'll be a robust surge in overall electricity demand,
02:19driven by the escalating need to electrify all industrial processes,
02:24power electric vehicles, produce green energy, hydrogen, sorry,
02:29and desalinate seawater and power also.
02:31We talk a lot about it, AI, to power AI servers, among other things.
02:36In Europe, particularly in France, we will also face the cliff effect.
02:43In fact, the majority of our nuclear reactors were constructed between 1978 and 1990
02:50and are approaching the end of the average 60-year lifespan.
02:56This implies we will certainly face a drop in nuclear energy production by 2038.
03:03The first EPR-2 in France would be projected to be built after 2035 in France.
03:09So a crucial question, and then we're going to make the link with SMR and AMR,
03:15is what is the potential contribution of small modular reactors, SMRs,
03:23and advanced modular reactors, AMRs, to this impending transition?
03:27We observe numerous, in fact, European projects and startups on SMRs and AMRs.
03:35There's Nerea, New World, but of course, Nucleo, and we're going to discuss about it.
03:39However, there's also in the U.S. the company NewScale that stopped its operations
03:43due to the financial reasons last year.
03:46But here, we're going to discuss about something that is really the change
03:50that we're going to have in the next years,
03:52and we're privileged to have Elizabeth Rizzotti, the co-founder and the COO of Nucleo,
03:58a company that is really specialized in AMRs
04:01to provide insights on this subject and also on Nucleo.
04:04So I'm going to start first with a generic question.
04:09There are many acronyms, and could you tell us and elaborate
04:14on the key differences between EPR, SMR, AMR, and fourth-generation nuclear reactors?
04:21Thank you, Elizabeth.
04:22Thank you, yes.
04:24So the carbon plants are usually pressure at the water reactor.
04:32So they are based on a very pressured water as a coolant system,
04:38and there is a new generation of this kind of reactor named the EPR.
04:43But recently, more and more companies have been launched to focus on the so-called SMR.
04:55SMR means only, refers only to the size of the reactor.
05:00So we are talking about small reactors, usually under 300 megawatt capacity.
05:08And we also have water-pressured reactors, so the same technology,
05:15but with a different size, of course, with an evolution in terms of safety,
05:20in terms of efficiency, but based substantially on the same technology.
05:29A small, moderate reactor has the features, the common features,
05:34to be very small, so flexible.
05:37They can be mass-produced in the factory.
05:40And this gives, of course, a strong advantage from an economic point of view,
05:45because you can build them in the factory,
05:49and then assemble the reactor in whatever you want.
05:54You don't need to build the reactor on a customized way, on the big.
06:00And this is very important for the investment point of view,
06:06because for the first time, this kind of reactor can enable the development by private companies.
06:16Okay, this is a great advantage.
06:18But small, referring above all to the size.
06:21AMR are the advanced modular reactors,
06:25so they belong to the small, modular reactor categories,
06:29but we are talking about a different technology.
06:33We are usually talking about fast reactor.
06:36The fast reactor means that the efficiency in producing the fission reaction
06:42is much more effective in the using of the fuel,
06:45and in production of electricity, of course.
06:47But they have also different kind of coolant system,
06:53and which bring to this technology safer features.
07:01And first of all, because we don't use pressurized,
07:06because they are just at the atmosphere pressure.
07:10This is the very...
07:12But they have a strong advantage from an economic point of view,
07:15a safe point of view,
07:16and sustainability and wasting management.
07:19Yeah, it's interesting to see the...
07:21I would say the two main differences between EPR,
07:24so it's massive reactors,
07:27and SMR, which is much smaller.
07:29And you said that one day or another could be mass-produced.
07:31And there's also a difference between SMR,
07:33which is current technology,
07:35and AMR,
07:36that also brings circular economy,
07:39I would say,
07:39because the waste,
07:43the nuclear waste,
07:43can be reused for AMRs,
07:47so it means that you are less dependent also on other countries,
07:51and you have less issues
07:54about what you do with the nuclear waste.
07:58But now there's also a question,
08:00because we'll say that,
08:01well, now we've got SMR, AMR,
08:04I mean, do we still need to have EPR too?
08:08In fact, I think it's not completely...
08:10We one can't replace the other.
08:12So it would be interesting to know
08:14what would be the specific applications,
08:17also the advantage,
08:18that make them a viable option
08:19in a certain number of scenarios.
08:21SMR and AMR are not being designed
08:24to replace the current plant.
08:26Absolutely not.
08:28As for their features of flexibility
08:30and transportability,
08:32they are very suitable,
08:34not only for produced electricity,
08:37and they can be used in fleet.
08:39So you can have more than one reactor
08:43to produce the electricity you need.
08:46But it is also...
08:48They are very flexible and usable,
08:51for instance,
08:52for industrial application,
08:54because don't forget that the AMR
08:58are able to produce not only electricity,
09:01but also heat,
09:02which is a very important need
09:05we need to address,
09:06especially for the industry.
09:07Then you can use them
09:10for production of e-fuel
09:12and, above all, hydrogen,
09:15which is a very...
09:17We have a very important need.
09:20But the flexibility of these SMR,
09:24of course,
09:25allow us to have also
09:26in very remote sites.
09:30And, for instance,
09:32one of the projects we are working on
09:34is for the propulsion,
09:36especially in the naval field,
09:40because the propulsion
09:42through such a kind of reactor,
09:45which is a nuclear battery,
09:47will allow the ship
09:49to work for 15 years
09:51without never refueling.
09:53Yeah, and it's true that,
09:55as you said,
09:56SMR and AMR
09:57can replace coal and gas,
10:00I would say, plants.
10:02It also, as you said,
10:04helps a certain number of...
10:06When you have energy-intensive industries
10:08like steelworks
10:09or nitrogen fertilizers,
10:11it also could help.
10:13And I've understood also
10:14that there's a certain number of countries
10:16that currently won't be able,
10:19wouldn't be able,
10:20I would say,
10:20to invest into EPR,
10:23but could invest,
10:24like Poland,
10:25but could invest in SMR,
10:26because, I mean,
10:27the ticket,
10:28investing ticket,
10:29is much lower.
10:31Also, the nuclear industry
10:32seems to be shifting its focus
10:34towards SMR and AMR technologies.
10:37Traditionally, I mean,
10:40larger reactors
10:41were considered more efficient,
10:43but now,
10:44how do you feel
10:45the business model
10:46for these small reactors
10:47challenged this notion,
10:49and why are they gaining
10:51so much traction
10:52in addition to what
10:54you just said before?
10:55Well, we all know
10:57that decarbonization
10:59is necessary
11:02for the climate change.
11:03And we recently also understood
11:06that the energy independence
11:09is extraordinarily important
11:11for, at least for Europe,
11:12but for all of us.
11:15And this is the reason
11:16this kind of technology
11:18could address both
11:19these very important proposals,
11:23because they are completely,
11:26well, their pillars
11:28are based on the three different elements,
11:31all of them extremely important.
11:33We've already talked about the costs,
11:35so the costs,
11:37they are flexible,
11:38they are,
11:38you can just build one
11:41or two
11:42or three
11:42according to the needs,
11:43and this is absolutely open
11:45for the private market.
11:48Like it happened
11:49a few years ago
11:50with space sector.
11:52Now,
11:53so it is very,
11:54very attractive
11:55for the private investment.
11:57but the main reason
12:00why it is important
12:02to address
12:03this kind of energy sector
12:07is because of the safety.
12:09Intrinsically safety,
12:12because this is exactly
12:13what this kind of coolant
12:16we use lead.
12:17The lead is used
12:19during the operation
12:20of the reactor
12:21at 430 to 520 degrees.
12:25So the lead is liquid.
12:28But if something happened
12:33and, well,
12:35you lose the control
12:36of the reaction,
12:37immediately,
12:39the temperature
12:41will first increase,
12:42then decrease,
12:43and immediately,
12:45the reactor
12:45will switch off.
12:46What happened
12:47to the lead?
12:48The lead will become,
12:49will solidify,
12:50and this will create
12:51a sort of sarcophagus,
12:53absolutely and natively
12:55and intrinsically safe.
12:56So safety
12:57is something
12:57very important.
12:59But last but not least,
13:00the sustainability
13:01of this kind of reactor.
13:03Because,
13:04well,
13:05and this is quite unique
13:06in our model,
13:08all the advanced
13:10modular reactor
13:11can use
13:12not only
13:14native uranium,
13:16but can use
13:17what is considered
13:18today
13:19the material
13:21reusable
13:22produced by
13:23the nuclear,
13:25the so-called
13:26in common waste.
13:28You can use them
13:30and recycle this
13:32for several times.
13:34And this is,
13:35especially in France,
13:37and this is the reason
13:38why we are
13:39becoming more
13:40and more French
13:41as a nuclear country
13:42because there is
13:43a lot of competence
13:44here to use
13:45what is so-called
13:46today the MUX.
13:48The MUX is used
13:49for the carbon plant,
13:50but only for 10%
13:53and only for one time.
13:55Our challenge is
13:57to combine
13:58two proven technologies,
13:59the fast reactor,
14:01lead fast reactor,
14:02with this capacity
14:03to produce MUX
14:05without mining.
14:06so our fuel
14:08will be
14:09only issued
14:10by
14:11produced
14:12nuclear
14:12issues
14:14from the
14:14current
14:15nuclear,
14:15so the waste,
14:16and we will
14:17recycle them
14:18so many times
14:19obtaining
14:20two things,
14:21no mining,
14:23very small
14:25amounts
14:25of
14:26final waste,
14:27just
14:27fiction fragments,
14:29and reducing
14:30a lot
14:31by a factor
14:31of 1,000
14:33of the
14:34longevity
14:35of the
14:36radioactivity
14:36of this waste.
14:38Yeah,
14:38I mean,
14:38it's interesting
14:39because exactly
14:40that's the question
14:41I wanted to ask you
14:41about what
14:43nuclear
14:44has difference,
14:45and in fact,
14:46you're pioneering,
14:47you talked about it
14:47already,
14:48about that you have
14:49an end-to-end
14:50business model.
14:51It's not just
14:52designing SMRs,
14:54but you work
14:55from MUX
14:56fuel manufacturing
14:57to reactor
14:58maintenance,
14:59including AMR
15:00conception,
15:00so
15:02can you
15:03go a bit
15:04deeper
15:04into
15:05what is
15:06your specific
15:07advantage
15:09compared maybe
15:09to our
15:10so many
15:10projects?
15:11Well,
15:12we have
15:12an industrial
15:12approach.
15:14R&D is
15:15extremely important,
15:16but we have
15:16an industrial
15:17approach,
15:18and as
15:19our project
15:20is based
15:20on two
15:21very proven
15:21technologies,
15:23we will be
15:23able,
15:24we are already
15:25in a licensing
15:26process
15:26with
15:28ASN,
15:28l'autorité
15:29de sûreté
15:29nucléaire,
15:30that will
15:31allow us
15:31to have
15:32our first
15:32line of
15:33MOX
15:33by 2030,
15:36and we
15:37will operate
15:38our first
15:39demonstrator
15:40reactor
15:40by 2031.
15:42Starting
15:43from then,
15:44starting from
15:452032,
15:462033,
15:47we will be
15:48able to
15:50deploy so
15:51many reactors
15:52as the
15:53market will
15:54need,
15:54but we will
15:55also be able
15:56to produce
15:57fuel,
15:58not only
15:59for our
15:59reactors,
16:00but for
16:00all the
16:01reactors
16:01belonging
16:02to this
16:02generation,
16:03because another
16:04thing that
16:04is very
16:05important to
16:07understand in
16:08this market
16:08is that we
16:10don't consider
16:11there are
16:11competitors,
16:12there are
16:13a lot of
16:13very interesting
16:14projects throughout
16:15the world,
16:16and especially
16:16in Europe,
16:18and the
16:19need of
16:20electricity,
16:20you just
16:21mentioned a
16:22few minutes
16:22ago,
16:23is so huge
16:24that there
16:25is space
16:25for anyone,
16:26and there
16:27is a strong
16:27space for
16:28collaboration,
16:29and also
16:30for the
16:30renewables,
16:31nuclear is
16:32not at
16:33all incompatible
16:35with renewable,
16:35we know that
16:36the future is
16:37a mix of
16:37energy,
16:38but nuclear
16:39can provide
16:40what the
16:41renewable can't
16:42provide,
16:43the stability,
16:45the stability,
16:45so a base
16:46load of
16:47energy,
16:47and this is
16:48the reason
16:49it will be
16:49a strong
16:51actor for
16:52the future
16:53climate change
16:55and energy
16:57independence.
16:58So you've
16:58talked of
16:59the timelines,
17:01but there's
17:01another question
17:01a lot of
17:02people saying
17:02if you have
17:03SMR,
17:04AMR around
17:05the world,
17:06isn't there
17:06a risk
17:07that the
17:09nuclear waste
17:11might be
17:11used to
17:12make weapons?
17:13And I
17:14found this,
17:14and well,
17:14it's a
17:15completely
17:15different story
17:16than what
17:16we have
17:16in Nepal,
17:17for instance.
17:18Thank you
17:19for the
17:19question,
17:19because it
17:20is true
17:21that when
17:21we talk
17:21about
17:22nuclear,
17:23it is
17:24important to
17:24talk about
17:25safety,
17:25because this
17:26is something
17:26that we
17:26need to
17:27guarantee,
17:28and of
17:28course,
17:29it is
17:29important to
17:30talk about
17:30efficiency,
17:31sustainability,
17:32but it
17:32is also
17:33true that
17:34according to
17:34the history
17:36of nuclear,
17:37the resilience
17:38vis-à-vis
17:41nuclear
17:41proliferation
17:43is of
17:43course a
17:44strong
17:44issue.
17:46And the
17:47generation
17:47for
17:48international
17:49form,
17:50which is
17:50this forum
17:51that
17:52identify
17:53which are
17:54the
17:55technology
17:55belonging
17:56to this
17:57new
17:57technology,
17:58the so-called
17:58AMR,
17:59the fast
18:00reactor,
18:01is strongly,
18:02strongly
18:03focused
18:03in guarantee
18:04that all
18:05this technology
18:06will
18:07guarantee
18:08a resilience
18:09against
18:10this
18:11nuclear
18:11proliferation.
18:12And of
18:13course,
18:14in our
18:14technology,
18:15as the
18:16waste
18:16will be
18:17reduced,
18:18so also
18:19the plutonium
18:20will be
18:21reduced
18:22during
18:22this
18:22multi-core
18:23recycling,
18:24naturally,
18:26it will
18:26be
18:26completely,
18:27completely,
18:28it will
18:29reduce
18:30dramatically
18:30the risk
18:31of
18:32nuclear
18:33proliferation.
18:34Yeah,
18:35I don't
18:35know if
18:35anybody,
18:36I hope
18:36nobody
18:36wants to
18:37make
18:37an atomic
18:38bomb,
18:39but in
18:39fact,
18:39you need
18:40to enrich
18:42plutonium,
18:42and it
18:42goes exactly
18:43the other
18:44way around
18:44with
18:44AMR,
18:45where you
18:45reduce,
18:46in fact,
18:49the number
18:50of plutonium,
18:52and so this
18:53means that the
18:54risk is much
18:54lower.
18:55Also,
18:56we have just
18:57a few
18:57seconds left,
18:58is there a
18:59last thing
19:00that you want
19:00to add,
19:01maybe,
19:01I don't
19:02know if
19:02in cooperation,
19:03or we need
19:04also to
19:04build an
19:05industrial chain
19:06also to
19:06construct,
19:08I mean,
19:09AMR,
19:10so that
19:10doesn't
19:10happen like
19:11that.
19:12Do you
19:13have any
19:13thoughts on
19:14that?
19:14Yes,
19:15well,
19:15our business
19:16model
19:16aims to
19:18produce,
19:19well,
19:19try and
19:20promise to
19:21deploy our
19:22reactors,
19:24and we
19:24will,
19:25of course,
19:25we want to
19:26be builder
19:26and operator,
19:27and according
19:29to our
19:30strategy,
19:31we will
19:31be at
19:31the same
19:32time able
19:32to deploy
19:35reactors,
19:36whatever in
19:37the world,
19:38we are
19:38focused in
19:39Europe,
19:39because Europe
19:40is our
19:42native
19:43country,
19:44our
19:44native
19:44region,
19:45but we
19:46will be
19:46able to
19:46deploy with
19:47the partners
19:47we will
19:48find in
19:49the coming
19:49years.
19:50And France
19:51also is a
19:51pretty good
19:52area,
19:53in fact,
19:53to build
19:54your plans.
19:55Yeah,
19:55we decided
19:56to become
19:57more and
19:57more French
19:58and move
19:58our
19:58headquarter
19:59in France
20:00in the
20:00coming months.
20:01We launched
20:02a company
20:02in 2021,
20:04when at
20:04this time,
20:05the UK was
20:06the most
20:06nuclear country
20:07in region
20:08Europe.
20:09But after
20:10the renaissance
20:11of France,
20:11we decided
20:11to become
20:12more and
20:12more French
20:13because we
20:13obtained so
20:14much support
20:15from institutions,
20:17from all
20:17the partners.
20:18So,
20:18definitely,
20:19this will be
20:20our first
20:21market.
20:21Well,
20:22thanks a lot,
20:22Elisabeth.
20:23It was
20:23really great
20:23to have
20:24you.
20:24And,
20:26yeah,
20:26you can
20:27have a
20:27clip if
20:27you want.
20:28Thank you.
20:29Thank you
20:29very much
20:30to all
20:30of you.
20:32And,
20:33after that,
20:33in about
20:34five minutes,
20:34we're going
20:35to discuss
20:35about another
20:36type of
20:37energy,
20:37fusion,
20:38and with
20:38somebody
20:39from
20:42Eiter
20:42and also
20:43Marvel
20:43fusion.
20:44So,
20:44that's also
20:45an interesting
20:45story.
20:46So,
20:46keep here.
20:47Stay here.
20:48Thanks a lot.
20:48Thank you.
Commentaires