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Will the Latest Sail Tech Make Skippers Obsolete
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00:00Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
00:30Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
01:00Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
01:03Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
01:04Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
01:23Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
01:27So, this is a rather provocative question, but before going into the details, maybe we can do a roundtable of
01:35introductions. So, Quentin.
01:39Hello, everyone. So, Quentin Luce, I'm working at the VPLP Design, which is like a naval architecture office for 20
01:49years. And in, you know, this company was founded in 1983.
01:56And since then, we've been working a lot on various like sailing projects or boats going from 16 footer up
02:07to 100 meters probably, mainly powered by sail. And so, we had the opportunity to work with Alex, for instance,
02:18on different Imoka boats and other sailing projects.
02:22Thank you so much.
02:24Thank you so much. Loïc, which hat are you on today?
02:27I'm French. Nobody's perfect. Sorry. And I'm a sailor since many, many years doing a lot of transatlantic round the
02:37world race and in charge of a boatyard in Brittany, which is building a lot of competition boat design in
02:47part by that naval architect. And still transmitting to the next generation what we are supposed to know.
02:56Thank you.
02:57Thank you so much. And Alex Thompson.
02:59Hello, everybody. I'm Alex Thompson. I'm British. And I'm probably known because I've done five Vendee Globes. I know I
03:09don't look so old, but I am.
03:11And in fact, I work with Quentin and his team who've designed two of my last boats. And today, I
03:20am more a manager. I work for Clarice Kremer, helping to run the L'Occitane sailing team.
03:26Fantastic. Great knowledge on board. And Ulysse, you can't improvise such a name.
03:32Hello, everyone. I'm Ulysse. I will be the young sport maker and I will be asking some questions with Anne
03:40-Cécile. I'm very honored to share the stage with you, especially with Alex Thompson, because I must say that back
03:48in 2016, I'm quite proud because I crossed the Vendee Globes finish line just before him.
03:55But unfortunately, it was on Virtual Regatta.
04:00Yeah, you see the new ways of sailing. And that's actually the question. I don't know if you've heard about
04:06or seen this young group of engineers from EPFL.
04:10They are managing to run Formula One on their own without the driver. So let's start with that quite provocative
04:20question.
04:20Do you think that the sail take will make the skippers obsolete? So maybe let's start with Quentin, designing the
04:27boats.
04:29I think it's very interesting because the technology is always present in our sailing project.
04:37So with a lot of evolution. And it keeps changing a bit, you know, the role of the skipper.
04:46of the skipper. But the main question is how do we accommodate or how do we race using this technology
04:58is really like the question we are asking ourselves.
05:02I mean, when you think about it, like, I don't know, 20 years ago, we had no information regarding the
05:10loads and the boat and so on.
05:12So today, we have much more info. And so the main thing is how do we compose with this new
05:19technology to make it more efficient.
05:23So there is one thing to be more efficient. But do you think that the sailor will disappear from the
05:31Loïc? What do you think?
05:33No. Hopefully not. But they are disappearing from the point of view. When you look at the racing boats today,
05:41the skippers and the crew wants to be protected because the boats are a lot faster than they used to
05:46be.
05:46We multiply the speed of our racing boats by 5 on the last 40 years. There is no other mobile
05:54on Earth which did such an evolution.
05:57Formula 1 today is not 5 times faster than it was 40 years ago. Only the boats were quite slow,
06:03let's say, 40 years ago.
06:04But then, so the crew now are more protected. They are in a bubble, which is a real bubble, but
06:11they have to be careful about the virtual view of any kind of intelligence which is supposed to give them
06:19what's happening outside.
06:20And we had a critical example yesterday in Den Haagen, at the start of a race between two iMokas, two
06:30big boats from the Vendée Globe, fully crewed, just at the start, one T-bones the other one.
06:37And they were fully crewed. It was daylight like that. It was just the start of a race.
06:41Why? Because they are so protected and so used to be in a bubble like that, trusting in the numbers,
06:49trusting in the screen, trusting, and not anybody on the deck.
06:53No one was on the deck. And that's, I think that's the lesson of the fact that we love technology.
07:00It seems to be the case here, but you have to be careful. There is a real life outside of
07:05that.
07:06And the skippers have to be there, the skippers and crew, and they will be there.
07:10Yeah. But the other part, I mean, that's another topic, maybe for the other question.
07:15And one thing is interesting is, you know, maybe it's a question for Alex, this one.
07:21The business model of sailing is relying on the media value and the stories on board.
07:26Do you think if you don't have any more images, and we've seen that on the ocean race, you know,
07:32of big waves crashing the boat,
07:34that gives, you know, much more sense of what we're about, that increase media value,
07:40if those images are disappearing, do you think it's going to be less interesting for the sponsors?
07:47Well, I definitely think it's changing, for sure.
07:50And people said to me in my last Vendée Globe that they couldn't decide whether I was on the ocean
07:57or in a studio.
07:59So that definitely changes things.
08:02But I think there are other ways that will become more enhanced.
08:08You know, today, certainly talking about a Vendée Globe, still only about 1% or 2% of the content
08:15available is coming off the boat.
08:18So the next step is to enhance this and bring more and more people on the boat.
08:23And for sport and entertainment, for me, it's about access.
08:27If you can give really good access to the audience, then it's going to become interesting.
08:34And I think with the communication changes today, that that's going to change a lot.
08:40So I think it's very exciting what's going to be happening.
08:44And Ulysse, as a young sport maker, you've seen that, you've played online.
08:51So what do you think? Would you rather, you know, see a race without people or does it matter?
08:57It seems to, there is a shift with the new technologies.
09:03Is there also a shift in the way the sponsors that finance mainly the sailing, offshore sailing projects,
09:12is there a shift in their choice when they have to choose a skipper?
09:18or are they going to analyze their track record, their skills?
09:26Or maybe are they looking more at their personality to tell a good story?
09:37I don't know.
09:38Whoever.
09:38Maybe, Alex, because now you're a team director, so you have to choose some skippers for your boats.
09:45I think every partner or sponsor in the sport is doing it for a reason.
09:51And that might be to advertise sustainability, to advertise some values.
09:57And for sure, I think part of what a sponsor is looking for is an ability for the person, the
10:06athlete,
10:07to be able to communicate their message in a clear and concise way.
10:13And the more entertaining you are, the more of the audience you're going to capture.
10:17So I think it's clear this is going to be happening.
10:20And I think probably, Alex, we've seen you doing crazy things on board the boats,
10:27like running on the mast and jumping on the water.
10:31So I think you've really well understood that aspect of our sport.
10:36But often the sailors are a bit shy and they don't really want to tell their stories.
10:41So what do you think, Loïc, how the human aspect can be better spread now?
10:48The question was interesting by you, I think.
10:51The beauty of that, for the beauty, the chance of the sailing sport offshore,
10:55mainly signal it is that you are not obliged to win, to succeed.
11:01And the Vendiglobe is the proof of that.
11:03But we have the time, the skippers have the time to share their story with the public.
11:11And the far they are, and they need to be far from the eyes of the public,
11:17but they are close to the arts.
11:19And that's very interesting to see that there is more people welcoming the last one of the Vendiglobe
11:24than the first one sometimes.
11:25That means that there is more value on the time you spend at sea than the speed,
11:32which is another funny story.
11:35Those boats, as we said, are a lot faster,
11:38but I'm not sure the audience, the overall audience, grows as the speed did.
11:45I'm not sure.
11:46We multiply the speed by five.
11:48We didn't multiply the audience by five.
11:50I'm pretty sure not.
11:51I don't have any numbers, but there is still a big pack of lovers.
11:55I agree, but they love the adventure.
11:58They don't really, I'm not sure the sport, sailing sport, is a big one, a major one.
12:04The stories we are building are good.
12:06The results are not very interesting.
12:08And I think it's almost a very philosophical question,
12:12asking the raison d'être, the reason to be for our sport.
12:17What does success look like?
12:18Is it speed?
12:19Maybe, Quentin, you can answer that as well,
12:22because as a designer for the boats,
12:23do you design them to be the fastest around the world?
12:26Is that what does matter?
12:28And the reliability.
12:30Yeah, I think there are a lot of different factors here,
12:33because in the end, a race is pretty complex,
12:36and it's not obvious that the fastest boat is going to win.
12:41You have several, like, parameters around this,
12:44and I think the more it goes, the more the human in the middle is important.
12:51When you're talking about, like, a racing boat,
12:54I mean, it's hard to talk about comfort,
12:56but to a certain extent, you cannot, like, put numbers on this,
13:00but for someone who is going to stay, like, 70, 75 days at sea on his own,
13:07in the end, I think the comfort you can imagine
13:12might end up being, like, a performance criteria.
13:16So I think, really, like, the first generation boat we've been working on,
13:20we were really focusing on performance, performance,
13:24and the human is going to accommodate himself around this boat.
13:29And now, I mean, and we've started with Alex's boat,
13:32the last Hugo Boss.
13:33How can we make it, like, more valuable,
13:36or to be inside, to be, like, not so wet,
13:40to have, like, everything under control and with access?
13:44And this was really changing.
13:47It was, like, the first step, let's say, like this,
13:50and the human in the middle of all those technologies is really important.
13:56And we might be faster with a boat where you are more protected,
14:01going, like, 90% than with a boat, which is super, super fast,
14:06but you can only use it at 60%, for instance.
14:10So do you think increasing the comfort on board?
14:13I remember Loic joking about putting flower pots
14:17on board the boat one day during the race.
14:22Will that help to tell the human story?
14:25Or will that go against, you know,
14:27that rough and difficult for the human body
14:31that the race represents?
14:35Well, once again, comfort.
14:37It's in bracket, really.
14:39Yeah.
14:40But I think, you know, I was talking to the guy,
14:42you know, like, early this week,
14:44and just to eat on board is going to last,
14:47I don't know, one hour or something,
14:49because just to boil the water, to make it happen,
14:52everything is complicated.
14:54I'm sure Alex and Loic can talk much more about it,
14:57but everything is complex.
15:00So really, I think,
15:02if you can have more facilities to make it happen,
15:06it's going to help because you are more available in your mind,
15:10probably,
15:11and then you'll be more sharp on the settings on board
15:15and then you have the ability then to communicate more easily
15:19and so I guess everything is going in the right direction.
15:25And imagine a world where all the technology can replace that.
15:30You know, is that possible, Loic?
15:34If you used to sail a bit,
15:37you still need some hands and a bit of brain
15:40to manage a boat with a crew or without a crew.
15:43But there is one question which is interesting.
15:47The solo races,
15:48you're supposed to be alone on the boat
15:49and you're supposed to do everything on the boat.
15:52But right now, since quite a lot of years,
15:55you have the right to have a team,
15:58like in the Formula One,
15:59you have a big team which is not near the track,
16:02which is in London or whatever,
16:04coaching,
16:05I mean, looking at all the numbers,
16:07all the data,
16:08all the values all the time.
16:09and it's possible today to have someone
16:15remotely trimming the sails,
16:17moving the keel,
16:18boiling the water,
16:19preparing the food for you.
16:21It's possible.
16:22And that's,
16:23it could be the end of the game for me.
16:24I mean, for the solo races and even for the crew.
16:27And symbolically,
16:27I don't like it at all,
16:29but that's,
16:30I'm an old-fashioned man maybe,
16:31but I don't like it.
16:32If you,
16:33the beauty of sailing is to be
16:36against other solo racers
16:38with the same tool,
16:40same weapon,
16:41but to have someone,
16:43you know,
16:43if you have a panic button each time,
16:45you have a little problem.
16:47What can I do?
16:48How can I do?
16:49You are not going to,
16:51that's not a good service
16:52to give to the future.
16:54Yeah.
16:55We're losing the human capacity
16:58to actually make decisions.
16:59But there is at least one thing
17:01which is important.
17:01Those boats are a lot faster,
17:03as we said.
17:03So that means each time
17:04you have the chance
17:06or the bad luck
17:06to hit something in the water
17:08and the water is not very clean
17:09as we all know.
17:11And then the shock
17:12and it's very dangerous
17:13for the boat,
17:14for the crew
17:14and for everybody.
17:15So then some technology
17:16which is already existing
17:17needs to get improved
17:19to try to track
17:20everything which is in front of us,
17:22which could be whales,
17:23which could be a piece of wood
17:24or anything.
17:25That's,
17:26it could be,
17:26that's something
17:27on which we have to dig a lot
17:28because there is a bit
17:30of a Russian roulette,
17:32when you start
17:33at the start of a race
17:34you are absolutely
17:35not sure to finish it
17:37even when you are leading
17:39you are not sure
17:40to finish it.
17:41Everything can happen
17:42in one second like that.
17:43It's a big gamble
17:44but if I understand well
17:45and that's,
17:46I think very interesting
17:47the two ways.
17:49So you think
17:51okay for data
17:52for safety,
17:53you know,
17:54and we need to improve that
17:55because at the moment
17:56we are not able
17:56to identify enough knee
17:58in the water
17:59and prevent the collision.
18:01and I compare that
18:02with you Alex
18:03when you are,
18:04you know,
18:05full of data analysis
18:06even your body
18:07was measured last time,
18:09you know,
18:09all the health information
18:10and I think it's another,
18:13maybe,
18:13is it another way of sailing
18:14to be fully data driven?
18:17Well,
18:18you know,
18:19for me there was two parts.
18:20One was performance
18:21and then the other side
18:22was for the audience.
18:24So the first thing,
18:25you know,
18:25when you sail alone,
18:26Loic,
18:27you know,
18:27sometimes you don't know
18:28when you slept last.
18:30it's impossible
18:31to know
18:31how many hours
18:32you're sleeping
18:33and so there was
18:34a big drive for me
18:36to first of all
18:37develop a device
18:38that could record
18:40when I was sleeping
18:42and then that would help me
18:44manage myself.
18:46But the other side
18:47was to try to
18:48transmit this information
18:49outside of the boat
18:51to try to capture
18:52other people's attention
18:53and to show
18:54more of an insight,
18:56more engagement
18:57and to try
18:59and build the audience.
19:00So there were
19:00two aspects from this.
19:02So I think,
19:03as Loic says,
19:04the rules are very important
19:05in this time,
19:07particularly as
19:08when the rules are written
19:10as a team
19:11and as an engineer,
19:13you just look at the rules
19:15and we try to be
19:16the fastest
19:17relative to those rules.
19:20So it's very important
19:22that the rules are correct
19:24because if they're not correct,
19:25then maybe we can go too far
19:27and if we do go too far,
19:30then we can undermine
19:31the sport of solo sailing.
19:34So it is a problem
19:36that we must look at.
19:37And then it's going back
19:39to the real reason to be
19:42of offshore sailing.
19:43It's a leisure activity
19:45in a world
19:46that is accelerating.
19:47We see that at VivaTech,
19:49all this technology
19:50and innovation.
19:51Why is there
19:53offshore sailing?
19:55Shouldn't we think
19:56about the way
19:59our connection
20:00to the ocean,
20:01the message we have
20:02to carry,
20:03the way we are
20:04building the boats?
20:05Maybe it's a little bit
20:06transition to the next session,
20:07but what's the purpose
20:09of sailing a boat
20:11around the world?
20:12Loic?
20:14Dreaming is part
20:15of what we still
20:17are available to do.
20:20A load to do also.
20:22Dreaming, maybe.
20:23Sharing.
20:24And also the technology itself.
20:27Those boats are a lot faster.
20:28Why?
20:29Because since many, many years now,
20:30we are using foils,
20:31you know, foils,
20:32those kind of wings
20:33which are helping the boat
20:36to reduce the drag.
20:38The lesson on the boat
20:39is we are not trying
20:41to extend the power.
20:43we try to reduce the drags
20:45which are a lesson to.
20:47Everywhere we need
20:48to reduce the drags.
20:49We are not going
20:49to disappear.
20:50We try to do our best
20:52to have the minimum impact.
20:54But that's exactly the same.
20:55And then,
20:56the beauty of the racing area
20:58is that
20:58we are pushing
20:59the big companies,
21:01ferries,
21:01and passenger ships
21:02to use sails
21:03in the future.
21:05And you are working a lot
21:06and we are working
21:07with CDK a yard
21:08to build big masts
21:10for the cargo ship.
21:11And that technology
21:12is coming from us.
21:14So there are some
21:16very, very short
21:17bridge
21:17between our world
21:19and the one
21:21of everybody.
21:22It's quite interesting
21:23for the future.
21:24That struck me
21:25when I was at a conference
21:26about maritime
21:27transport efficiency.
21:28In fact,
21:29you have cargo ships
21:30put in the water
21:31powered by massive fuel.
21:34The design
21:35is really anti-speed,
21:37clearly.
21:37And I was thinking
21:38why don't they
21:39work together?
21:40The naval architect
21:41and the shipping industry
21:43to help reduce
21:44the carbon impact.
21:45And they have
21:46strong rules now.
21:47But the paradox
21:48and how are we
21:49going to solve
21:49the paradox
21:50of increasing
21:51the carbon impact
21:51of building a foil?
21:54Is that offsetting
21:56the technology transfer
22:00that we can use
22:01to the shipping industry?
22:02Maybe Conta can help us.
22:05Yeah.
22:06It's sure it's very important
22:07to use the racing industry
22:10because we have
22:12some means
22:13to make some study
22:14to be more efficient
22:15with all those foils
22:17which were not existing
22:18let's say
22:19in the racing world
22:20like a decade or two.
22:23And so we are
22:24learning a lot
22:25and definitely
22:25one of the main
22:27aspects
22:28from our job
22:29is to envisage
22:31a transfer
22:31to the industry
22:32and if we can gain
22:35like 20%
22:36or whatever
22:36of efficiency
22:38drag
22:39or things like this
22:41it's really important
22:43and it really makes sense
22:45and I think
22:45to do so
22:46we have like two
22:47key
22:48let's say
22:49points
22:49we are trying
22:50to transfer
22:51those days
22:52is the foils
22:53first to limit
22:54to imitate the drag
22:55the drag
22:55as Loïc was mentioning
22:56and as well
22:58to use
22:58the wind
22:59as power
23:00for the transport
23:02and so on
23:04and this is really important
23:06now in the maritime industry
23:07and we can see
23:09some benefits
23:10about it
23:11I think Mark
23:12is going to make a panel
23:13afterwards
23:13to discuss
23:14probably about it
23:15but definitely
23:16something which is
23:17one of the key aspects
23:19in our job
23:19benefits from the racing
23:21to transfer it
23:22to the industry
23:22and do you feel
23:23there's enough
23:24bridges
23:25and recognition
23:26of the need
23:27for the ambition
23:28i.e. investment
23:29from the shipping industry
23:31which is a bit more
23:31traditional
23:32than
23:32I see
23:34lots of boatyards
23:35going in that direction
23:36but I'm not sure
23:38it's good enough
23:40and it's at scale
23:41and at the speed
23:42that we need
23:42yeah
23:43this is the early stages
23:44really for this
23:46hopefully it's going to
23:47you know
23:48to grow
23:48in the next future
23:50but
23:50you know
23:51it's a long process
23:51because
23:52when you have
23:53such a technology transfer
23:54with like innovation
23:55around this
23:56it takes some time
23:57to really see the benefits
23:59to evaluate the risk
24:00around it
24:01before it goes really
24:02into like
24:03the new model
24:06and
24:06are you also going
24:08in the direction
24:09of you know
24:10technology transfer
24:11when you're thinking
24:12about the boat
24:13maybe that's another
24:15destination
24:15for offshore racing
24:17and adding to the purpose
24:18the legacy
24:19of our industry
24:20would be to
24:22bridge
24:22to the bigger
24:25massive
24:26you know
24:27what's at stake
24:28out there
24:28is the shipping industry
24:31I definitely think
24:32it's moving
24:32in the right direction
24:33and you know
24:34when you inherently
24:35try to make a boat
24:36go very fast
24:37and to do that
24:39you do that
24:39by reducing
24:40the friction
24:41then of course
24:42the learnings
24:43are there
24:43so it's an obvious
24:46route
24:46but as
24:46Constant says
24:47it takes time
24:49we see this
24:49in other sports
24:50with Formula 1
24:51you know
24:52there are
24:52legacy projects
24:54that help
24:54sustainability
24:55they're coming
24:56but they
24:57take time
24:58and it's funny
24:59because I've
25:00I've asked
25:01myself
25:02chat
25:03GPT
25:04the question
25:05about
25:06will the latest
25:08sail tech
25:08make skippers
25:09obsolete
25:09to understand
25:11if AI
25:11you know
25:12had a good answer
25:13and
25:14their conclusion
25:15is to say
25:16that
25:16nothing
25:17can replace
25:18the leadership
25:20the adaptability
25:21and the skills
25:22of skippers
25:23on board
25:23so the question
25:24of AI
25:25is actually
25:26absolutely not
25:27you know
25:27the human aspect
25:28of it
25:29is what's
25:30going to
25:30make us
25:31make us
25:31win
25:33which means
25:33we don't
25:34lose our job
25:34yeah
25:36I think
25:38that's a good
25:39conclusion
25:39there is hope
25:41and I think
25:41that's what
25:42you see
25:43you need
25:44the human
25:44knowledge
25:45it's probably
25:46the best
25:46skill
25:47to win a race
25:48and to be
25:49you know
25:50forward thinking
25:50the knowledge
25:51of the elements
25:52of the currents
25:53the capacity
25:54to analyse
25:54all this data
25:55ourselves
25:56and to take
25:57the most
25:58instinctive
25:59or informed
26:00decision
26:00so maybe
26:01as a conclusion
26:03if I can ask
26:04you
26:04each of you
26:05to have a sentence
26:06or a word
26:07to conclude
26:08that debate
26:09and we will
26:10finish by the
26:11young voice
26:12Quentin
26:13what do you think
26:15really like
26:16for me
26:17human remains
26:19a central part
26:20of any racing
26:21project today
26:22so the whole
26:24game
26:24is how
26:26do we play
26:27with the technology
26:28evolving
26:28to make sure
26:30the human
26:30is like
26:31feeling good
26:31in the middle
26:32of this
26:32that's really
26:33like what I think
26:35good
26:36what about you
26:37I read a little
26:38sentence
26:39few days ago
26:40in English
26:43it's quite nice
26:44to care about
26:46the state
26:47of the planet
26:48we are going
26:48to give to
26:49our children
26:50but it's
26:51quite important
26:51also to
26:52think about
26:53the state
26:54of our children
26:54we are going
26:55to give to
26:55the planet
26:58very good
26:59one
26:59Alex
27:00and for me
27:01in particular
27:01for solo
27:03sailing
27:03and if you
27:03talk about
27:04the Vendee
27:04globe
27:05you know
27:05people
27:06when they
27:07ask me
27:07Alex
27:08what is
27:08the Vendee
27:09globe
27:09and I don't
27:10talk about
27:11sailing
27:11I say
27:12it's
27:12the single
27:14most difficult
27:15sporting challenge
27:16left on the
27:17planet today
27:18and a true
27:19test
27:19of a human's
27:21not only
27:22physical strength
27:23but more
27:23importantly
27:24mental strength
27:25and I'm afraid
27:26if you take
27:27the human
27:27out of this
27:28there is no
27:29story
27:30there is no
27:31entertainment
27:31there is no
27:32sport
27:32fantastic
27:34how about
27:35you
27:36my key
27:37takeaways
27:37from this
27:38panel
27:39are that
27:41the
27:41humanity
27:42of skipper
27:43is still
27:43very important
27:44even with
27:45those new
27:46technologies
27:47because
27:48they have
27:49to
27:54find the
27:55right
27:55settings
27:55to
27:57make
27:58good
27:58choice
27:58and balance
27:59between
27:59speed
28:00between
28:01comfort
28:02between
28:03reliability
28:04and
28:05the second
28:06one
28:07is that
28:07they have
28:08a role
28:09very important
28:10in the
28:12sustainability
28:13in the
28:14maritime
28:14transition
28:15and
28:16that's
28:17good hope
28:17for a
28:18future
28:19thank you
28:20so much
28:20well that's
28:21the great
28:21conclusion
28:22and transition
28:23for the
28:23next
28:23session
28:24so
28:24thank you
28:25very much
28:26for your
28:26insights
28:26it was
28:27very
28:27interesting
28:28please
28:28give them
28:29a round
28:29of applause
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