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Scaling Up Renewables
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00:00Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
00:30We are going to talk about scaling up renewables, as you probably know, energy production still accounts for an important
00:38share of greenhouse gas emissions, and solar panel, wind energy, and other renewables will probably take the lead.
00:47That's what we're going to see right now with Julia Seeger and all of her guests. Please welcome Julia and
00:52her guests.
01:14Hello again. I'd like to introduce our panelists, Martin Edlin, CEO of Monesto. Hello and welcome.
01:21Elena Bou, Innovation Director at EIT InnoEnergy. Hello and welcome to you as well.
01:27Zoe Berkery, Chief Operating at Clean Capital.
01:31And Laurent Becerra, Managing Director of Total Energy Renewables International.
01:35It's a pleasure to have you all here today on stage at VivaTech.
01:39We will be taking questions throughout the panel, so please don't hesitate to send it through Slido.
01:45You have all of the panelists that are here. They're ready to answer your questions.
01:49This is a great opportunity to really spark the conversation also, the conversation that is also happening on social media.
01:56Now, before we start, Martin, we often hear indeed about solar, wind power.
02:03We're hearing more and more about how to harness the energy of the sea.
02:07But tell us a little bit more about your solution, Minesto.
02:11Yes, thank you. Yes, Minesto, we're an example of a new technology that can harvest electricity from tidal currents and
02:22ocean currents.
02:23It's not a niche technology. It's something that really can contribute to the global energy mix in many parts of
02:31the world.
02:31We use a unique principle, so we fly an underwater kite tethered to the seabed.
02:38And it has turned out to be a highly competitive way of approaching this natural resource.
02:45And I believe that it is probably the largest untapped renewable energy source on the planet.
02:55So we have quite some work to do to populate the right spots in the world with this technology.
03:03Now, Laurent, as I was saying, you're the managing director of Total Energy Renewables International.
03:09And so you're coming from the oil and gas, but you are driving a major transformation within your company,
03:15a transition towards an ambitious goal, which is to rank among the top five global producers of solar and wind
03:22generated electricity by 2030.
03:24Tell us a little bit more about how you intend to get there.
03:28Indeed, Julia, scaling up renewable is exactly the journey we are implementing today in Total Energy.
03:37We are coming from an oil and gas, a major oil and gas, and we go now in multi-energy
03:42companies.
03:44We want to be carbon neutral by 2050 along the South City.
03:48And to achieve that, we want to be, as you said, one of the top five renewable producers by 2030.
03:58How we can achieve that?
04:00We want to achieve 100 gigawatts of renewable capacity by 2030.
04:0730% of our investment are done today in renewable and decarbonized techniques.
04:17And also, just to give you an example, today, in our mix energetic of Total Energy,
04:24we have 7% of electricity and renewable, 48% of gas, and 44% of oil.
04:31This is today our mix.
04:33In 2050, we plan to have 50% of renewable and electricity, 25% of decarbonized molecules, and 25%
04:42of oil and gas.
04:45So it is the journey we want to implement.
04:48Thank you, Laurent.
04:49Now, Elena, you have a double hat, if you will.
04:53You founded EIT InnoEnergy in 2010.
04:55It is an innovation ecosystem for sustainable energy, which is operating in 25 countries across Europe.
05:02So you really have that perspective from the EU decision makers.
05:06And at the same time, as an innovation director, you have also led many efforts to scale up companies in
05:13the energy field.
05:15So from that perspective, with that double hat, what would you say are the key challenges and barriers to scaling
05:21up renewable energy sources today?
05:25Basically, especially in Europe, there is one aspect, which is that we need speed and simplicity.
05:32Why?
05:33Let's take a permitting, for instance.
05:36I mean, the best, the global benchmarks in the world, they take six months, nine months, something like that, in
05:44order to give the permitting.
05:45Here in Europe, it's around three or four years.
05:49Three or four years.
05:51So the thing is that now legislation, especially the RepowerEU and also the NetServe Industrial Act, is trying to accelerate
06:00that permitting.
06:02But this is something super important in terms of scaling up.
06:05The second challenge has to do that we need muscle.
06:08And I'm talking about the financial muscle.
06:11The thing is, this is something that applies for companies like Martin's ones, Minesto, that it is a very early
06:17stage, well, still in the early stages development.
06:21And also the big industry, for instance, the wind industry.
06:25The wind industry, yes, the five major wind producers, they have problems to financing.
06:32They cannot cope with that financing in their balance sheet.
06:37And then, on the other side, the innovators, these companies that are really putting breakthroughs, technologies, they have also a
06:45challenge.
06:45I always say that this is not software.
06:49And this implies that we are capital intensive.
06:52We have something that we call tough tech.
06:56And this means that companies like, for instance, Martin's and others, they, very early, they need a lot of capital.
07:04And there is still a risk, a technology risk.
07:08So there is an empty space, a gap.
07:11Because the business is too much for them, in terms of muscle.
07:16And the institutionals, the financial institutions, is too risky for them.
07:22Okay?
07:22So, there is a gap in the middle.
07:24And then there is others that we call the infrastructure startups.
07:29Indeed, we have just today in the news, there was a company, a French company that we are supporting, that
07:37it is going to become our fourth unicorn.
07:40This company is Bercor, it's a gigafactory.
07:42This company is raising, at this moment, 2 billion euros round.
07:48And it is still an early stage company, founded three years ago by us.
07:52So, what I mean is that this scenario is offering a challenge, because there is a gap about who is
08:00going to finance this company.
08:01And the last one is that we need a value change approach, from the raw materials to the recycling.
08:07But I think that we can discuss that afterwards.
08:09We're going to be discussing that in just a moment.
08:11We'll go back also to, on the permit thing, with you, Martin.
08:16Now, Zoe, Clean Capital provides capital investment expertise to developers who want to grow and scale, particularly in the field
08:23of battery storage and solar.
08:25What do you think can be done for energy startups to attract sufficient capital for large-scale renewable energy projects?
08:33Sure.
08:33So, Clean Capital has been around since 2015.
08:36And over the course of these years, we have invested over a billion dollars into distributed renewable technologies.
08:45We've partnered with some of the world's largest institutional capital providers, including BlackRock, Carval, and John Hancock Manulife.
08:52And over that time, it's taken a lot of, you know, educating of our investors and exactly kind of what
08:58we do, why it matters, why distributed renewable technologies matter.
09:02And whereas we started our business actively acquiring already operating renewable technology assets, we now also acquire and invest in
09:11companies who are also doing that themselves.
09:13So, we are investing in, you know, startups that are on the ground developing solar and battery across the U
09:21.S.
09:21And I think the landscape really has changed since 2015.
09:25I think, you know, just 10 years ago, solar was tidal technology.
09:29And obviously, it's, you know, the markets have gotten much more comfortable with solar and battery storage, but there's still
09:34work to do across the board.
09:36And it's definitely a two-steps-forward, one-step-back situation at times.
09:40You know, over the last 15 years, from the American Recovery Act in 2009 to just last year with the
09:48Inflation Reduction Act that is proving to be the most transformational climate policy that the U.S. has ever seen,
09:55a lot has changed.
09:56And it's making investors increasingly comfortable with the renewable space.
10:01And I would say when we're looking at different developers to invest in, we're focused on, okay, what is your
10:08edge?
10:08What are you bringing to the table that maybe others aren't seeing in terms of the policy landscape where you
10:13want to operate in or how you're viewing, you know, renewable commodities markets?
10:20We also look at, are you thinking a little bit more broadly, not just about developing that technology, but engaging
10:26the community, factoring in agrivoltaics?
10:29You know, we want to not only build the solar, but we want to make sure that we're doing it
10:34in the most comprehensive and sort of holistic way while still making it pencil and financeable.
10:40So the criteria are becoming more and more holistic.
10:43Yeah.
10:43Yeah, and our investors are really excited about that.
10:47Martin, what happens when you're trying, what's your personal experience when you're trying to find funding for Minesto?
10:54What is it that we're lacking here to be able to find that money at the right time, that amount
11:01of money, like Elinna was saying, and at the right time?
11:05First, I would like to say that the journey we've had where we have invested around 80 million euros in
11:16equity,
11:16and around 50 million euros in soft funding, grant-based funding from the EU, making us one of the strongest
11:25funded technologies in Europe from the EU perspective.
11:29So, I mean, we shouldn't sit here and say that it's impossible to fund new technologies.
11:35If you have competitive technologies and you do it right, there are a lot of backers and investors that take
11:42interest in this.
11:44But what we're facing is, of course, in the energy sector, a situation where you want to build a race
11:50or large-scale production facilities.
11:54And for us, it's going to be submerged, a race, underwater parks of kites working together.
12:02And, of course, when we do the first park, that is in itself a prototype or a first project on
12:11that system level.
12:13So, when we go to project finance, that's the risk appetite and the way they view an investment is not
12:21always aligned with that setup.
12:24So, I think that what we need to do as the entrepreneurs and the technology developers here, we need to
12:30offer financial solutions, potentially where we have hybrid solutions.
12:34We can offer a stake or a share in the mother company, in the tech company, and an opportunity to
12:43invest in the project.
12:47And we also see, and I think we need more of that, we see really good setups with EU funding
12:53to support and de-risk some of those projects.
12:57The challenge with that is that it is very geographically limited to Europe.
13:03And it doesn't matter where you emit your carbon dioxide on the planet.
13:08And there are areas where we need to work harder and do more.
13:13We have an enormous market in Asia-Pacific, for example, where we talk about hundreds of gigawatts capacity, where we
13:21today are 98% fossil with lignite, brine coal.
13:26And that area, I mean, if we think a little bit more carefully, that kind of support funding might do
13:33more good in that context.
13:35So, a few reflections on this topic.
13:40On this question, Elina and maybe Zoe, this new hybrid architectures of investments, is that the key going forward?
13:50Under the perspective of Europe, because it's different in different places.
13:56Here, we have been able to mobilize public funding for the earlier stages, but there is a lack of tool.
14:08We are lacking a toolbox here, which is exactly when we are talking about this kind of infrastructure projects that
14:18are run by young, innovative companies.
14:23So, there is no toolbox.
14:25And the problem that we have with the public funding is that they have boxes.
14:32There is this box, there is this box.
14:35But I am not in any of those.
14:37Well, that is the box.
14:39So, we have to be also flexible.
14:41I think that one of me, one of the, if I can ask something to the European funding and the
14:49European Commission, if they are here, is like, let's be flexible.
14:54I mean, let's not focus on the process or on the boxes that we have.
14:58Let's see what we need.
15:00And here, there is a clear need.
15:02So, we need some toolbox to solve this.
15:05We need to reverse engineer this.
15:07Zoe, do you agree with this?
15:09I mean, I do.
15:10I think I can speak more from the U.S.
15:12The U.S. perspective is different.
15:13Right.
15:14It is slightly different.
15:15But I think there's a few key things at play.
15:18I think we definitely need to increase investments in R&D, just generally research and development.
15:23I think that's not been enough to date.
15:27And also programs like loan guarantee programs from the federal government, which has improved of recent years.
15:37But I think, yeah, there's definitely more that can be done on that side, for sure.
15:42Now, when we talk about these topics, of course, it can be kind of stressful because, you know, of everything
15:48that we're seeing, all the reports that are coming out.
15:50But we have gone a long way already.
15:54I mean, and, Laurent, you actually come to this table with an optimistic message, which is that, yes, still needs
16:00to be done, for sure.
16:01Lots still needs to be done.
16:03But we can also reflect on what has already been done and the journey that we've already made.
16:09So could you perhaps give us an overview of how you see that?
16:13Indeed, Julia, the trend and what we have done today is not so bad.
16:17Even, as you say, we need to do more.
16:20If we look today, the production, the worldwide production of electricity, 60% is still fossil, but we have 30
16:28% as renewable generation.
16:30And with a trend in 2007, we will have 55% of renewable generation and 30% of fossil.
16:39And in 2027 as well, it is important to say, for the first time, one technology, Solar Farm, will represent
16:4825% of the worldwide electricity production in the front of coal.
16:55So, the trend is good.
16:58By 2030, solar and wind will be multiplied by three.
17:03And by 2050, following the International Energy Agency, wind and solar will be multiplied by 30.
17:12So, there's a way to do, but it's not so bad what we achieved today.
17:17Right.
17:18So, we've achieved a lot on this, but of course, and this is why we're here, we still need to
17:23scale up.
17:24And of course, the solutions are probably different depending on the region and the world where you are, right?
17:28It's not a one solution fits all.
17:31I'd like to go back on the permitting also and on what you call, Martin, the valley of death,
17:38which is a strong expression to explain that startups really need help to be able to get to the industrial
17:45rollout.
17:46Tell us more about that.
17:49Yeah, I mean, it's very related to the topics we had on the larger investments for the projects.
17:55But I think what we see is that in order to fund those scale-up infrastructure projects, we need to
18:04partner up with Laurent and the big boys in the energy sector.
18:11And I must say that I am really optimistic that real things are happening here.
18:16The greenwash days are over.
18:18The dialogues we have with established global offshore energy corporations today is on a completely different level than five years
18:28ago.
18:29And they sit on assets that might be stranded in a medium-long-term perspective with vessels, with prospecting, with
18:38subsea engineering capabilities.
18:40So, the match is perfect for us to line up with those guys.
18:45And I think that is an important opportunity in taking that step and avoiding to end up sort of caught
18:54in the middle and not securing the funding you need.
18:57That's right. Five years ago, we wouldn't have had the same people around the table.
19:03No, probably not.
19:04No, it's true. When we started, I mean, we started the company in the year 2010 when we were talking
19:10about sustainable energy.
19:11They were talking, what?
19:13So, and today is just, it's part of us, it's part of the, of it.
19:18I think also that, I think that it has also to do about the society.
19:24I think that this is, for me, sometimes I say, it's not only about the technology, but the important key
19:29aspect is people.
19:31And I like these kind of anthropologists' studies that they show that the clear, the energy generation type has a
19:39direct relationship with the values of the society and the economy.
19:43Oil and gas, it was values related with consumism.
19:47Okay?
19:47And now we are changing.
19:48And I think that that is why I always say that we need a lot of pedagogy.
19:52Now my mother talks about energy in the, in the family discussions.
19:58That is super, because it is something that the run-of-the-mill citizen needs to understand how affects it.
20:05So I think that this is, this is the part also of value and people that, and that is changing.
20:10And now we need to offer a solution.
20:13But at the same time, so when we talk about societal change, people tend to not accept the inconvenience that
20:19goes with it, at least at first, right?
20:21People don't like change.
20:22So how do you go about that?
20:24The NIMBY, the NIMBY syndrome, which is, I love renewables, but not in my backyard.
20:30Okay?
20:31And this is a kind of aspect that we have to work with it.
20:34We have a measurement that it is, is not only the technology readiness level, that it is something that most
20:40of you are, but it is a society readiness level.
20:44Okay?
20:44And this is super important because we cannot be hyper-kiped.
20:48How many of you have a mobile phone?
20:51That mobile phone has a battery.
20:53The raw materials of that battery are coming from a mine for the moment, but nobody wants to talk about
20:59mines.
21:00Okay?
21:01So what, what, what I mean is that let's, let's face this kind of discussions also.
21:07Okay?
21:08And, and we have to accept the similar thing with the consumer readiness levels.
21:12I mean, we need to change behaviors.
21:14Electric vehicles, electric vehicles need to change as the behaviors.
21:19So this is kind of, and that is why I'm coming from social scientists, sciences.
21:25That is why I love to work with the engineers, because we mix a bit about this kind of technology
21:31together with the, with the social aspect of it.
21:35Let's go back to the regulation you were speaking about earlier, the Inflation Act.
21:40What are the main takeaways?
21:42And also, Eileen, I'd like to, to have your take in Noah as well on this question, but why is
21:48it incentivizing the scaling up of renewables?
21:51In what way?
21:52Yeah, so the Inflation Reduction Act, which was passed just under a year ago, I think it was August, 2022,
21:59effectively scales up existing investment and tax credit vehicles that were already in existence.
22:08So, like the investment tax credit, for example, or the production tax credit that were already available for solar and
22:14wind.
22:15But what this has now done is broadened it out to many other technologies, carbon capture and storage, hydrogen, fuel
22:22cells.
22:22There are many others that are now able to take advantage of these financing mechanisms.
22:28And on top of that, there's also abilities for transferability of those credits.
22:33So, formerly non-taxable NGOs, et cetera, were not able to participate in some of these incentives, and now it's
22:40much more broad.
22:41On top of that, we're going to see the IRA, which is the Inflation Reduction Act, bring $600 billion of
22:48investments in solar alone.
22:51That's $200 billion more than without the IRA.
22:54We expect it to bring, I think, over 250,000 new jobs into solar and expand solar deployment by over
23:0370% over 10 years.
23:06And as a result of that, we will see solar electricity generation eclipse that of coal from 2021 levels by
23:142032, which is just numbers that we maybe couldn't even fathom just a few years ago.
23:20So, it's really exciting for all renewables.
23:23Right, for the entire industry.
23:25Exactly.
23:25Elina, why is the IRA such a game changer?
23:31Well, for the U.S., it has been a game changer.
23:35I think that I'm going to play here.
23:37But it is serving the entire industry because it's serving as an example.
23:40Yeah, but let's talk also reality.
23:44I mean, it was a kind of protectionism measure also, which has also some kind of things.
23:53But I'm going to put the perspective of the European law.
24:00So, I think that we should be very proud, at least, of the ones that we are here in Europe,
24:05because the repower EU, I mean, today the penetration of renewables in Europe is 12%.
24:11And they have raised those targets to 42.5%.
24:18And Europe and Canada are the only countries that they have these kind of commitments by law.
24:25So, it is not a pledge.
24:27It is not blah, blah, blah.
24:29It is written in law.
24:30And this is very important because this gives stability for the industry and for the investments.
24:37Because otherwise, I mean, it is running a risk.
24:39Also, for instance, for you, Martin, the indication of the law is that 5% of these renewables should be
24:47in innovative renewables technologies.
24:51This means, this 5% means 1 gigabyte.
24:54And they are, for these companies, that they have these kind of solutions like Minesto and others.
24:59So, all this kind of, I mean, what I mean is that sometimes we see always that the grass is
25:06greener on the other side.
25:08But let's think that this kind of legislation has been for many years.
25:12Even with the COVID, we have been, Europe, leading, and we are still leading in the legislation in climate tech.
25:19We're trying to catch up.
25:23Maybe, Julia, what I can add on the Inflation Reduction Act,
25:28it gives also visibility on 10 years because the program goes until 2032.
25:34And to invest massively, this is also important to have visibility on the future.
25:38And as you said, Zoe, what is good with Aira, it is not only the renewables,
25:45it's also other parts of the economy which help to decarbonize, like carbon capture technology,
25:51like the SAF biofuel for aviation, for example.
25:56and also a portion for offshore wind, and offshore wind need also some investment.
26:03So, this is good with Aira, yeah.
26:06Martin, on this question?
26:08Yes, I think that one huge advantage being in the energy sector is that everyone is your customer.
26:16All individuals, all companies.
26:19And will always be.
26:20And will always be.
26:22And we are at the core of fighting climate change.
26:26We can get electric vehicles, we can do so much,
26:29but the electrification at the core of it is the energy sector.
26:33So, as consumers, the needs we have and the values we want to see will drive this.
26:40So, one of the most important scale-up dimensions here is that we, as consumers, ask for renewable solutions.
26:48And we are.
26:49We see really interesting trends in this.
26:51We are working with one of the world's best salmon farming aquaculture companies in the Faroe Islands, where we are.
27:00It's basically their industrial base.
27:02And they put a huge pressure on society and the political sphere to go 100% renewable,
27:09because their product will be more competitive.
27:14So, I think that aspect of it is at the core of scale-up as well.
27:20And I am more and more optimistic for every year that passes in that sense.
27:25That's good to hear.
27:26Just one last comment.
27:28I mean, it's like all these kind of legislations are good news for all of us.
27:34Because at the end, this is a global challenge.
27:37So, we need that many and more and more countries in order to foster all these kind of net-zero
27:43industries.
27:44Now, you mentioned earlier carbon capture.
27:47What are the main technologies do you think are the most promising?
27:51Which technologies do you think are promising?
27:53Which aren't?
27:56I can take some point.
27:57So, let's talk about offshore wind.
28:00Till now, the development of offshore wind was a bottom-fix structure.
28:04So, you have the turbine on the pile.
28:07Fixed on the soil.
28:09And now, there's a lot of development on the floating offshore wind.
28:14What is the difference?
28:15With the bottom-fix structure, you can go only on a maximum of 60 meters on the depth.
28:22With the floating offshore wind, you can go to 200-300 meters on the depth inside the water.
28:29So, you can imagine the potential.
28:31And the potential today is estimated at 10 times what we can do today with a bottom-fix structure.
28:40Secondly, when we talk about renewable, we need to solve the issue of intermittency.
28:49One way, one day, to solve this issue is to develop battery.
28:54With battery, you can store electricity and having a kind of part of load during the day where you can
29:03improve the generation of electricity.
29:06There's part of the world, for example, in South Africa, in some tender, we have been able to compete with
29:13a baseload thermal plant, just with solar farm, and hybridized with battery.
29:22So, battery will be probably one of the solutions to scaling up, yeah.
29:30Yeah, what technologies are the best ones?
29:32Was that the question?
29:33Maybe I shouldn't answer that one.
29:36Please do.
29:36No-brainer for me.
29:37I think that what we need to add, I mean, we work hard with storage.
29:40We invest enormously in storage.
29:43We have long-term storage, and we have microsecond storage needs in this.
29:48And we need to do that.
29:50The other direction is to find more renewables that are fully plannable and predictable and of baseload characteristics.
29:58The tidal and ocean currents are that kind of solution.
30:02So, I think that's a very strong argument why we need to get that global resource in our service.
30:09I think that's really important.
30:12And this also then means that we need to do the analysis of what is an affordable 100% renewable
30:17energy system.
30:19because today we're focusing a little bit too much on the project level.
30:23You can over-invest in wind in a market, and then you will not get the full benefits out of
30:28it,
30:28and you will have to compensate with a lot of storage capacity.
30:32And that might be fine, and that might be the solution for some markets.
30:36But I think we need to raise the level of analysis of the cost structure of the energy sector
30:41to include all the supporting technologies and the infrastructure needs.
30:46Some scenarios, you can reduce infrastructure needs significantly,
30:50and in the end of the day, it will be the consumers of electricity that pay for all of this.
30:56So, in order to afford it, this analysis needs to take a central place on the stage, I believe.
31:03Affordability is definitely another important aspect.
31:07I agree with Martin that there is one part of hybridation,
31:11and there are some projects that they are combining offshore together with wave energy converter,
31:16together with tidal technologies,
31:19so that offers try to solve this intermittency.
31:22In any case, storage, we will need it.
31:25I mean, we are not going to be able to escape, so this is a combination.
31:30And then the other type of technologies have to do, for the mature company,
31:34for the mature technologies, anything that reduces the leverage cost of energy.
31:39That is the key.
31:41That is the affordable aspect that you were mentioning.
31:44So, at this moment, for instance,
31:47the solar, I mean, has a lot of inefficiency in the process.
31:53So, for instance, we have a company that they get wafers at 50% the cost.
32:00So, that is a major type of thing.
32:02And these are our type of technologies,
32:06more about the industrializations,
32:08that can help a lot.
32:10Recycling.
32:10I mean, recycling is a key thing.
32:13I mean, that is why I was talking about the perspective of the industrial value change.
32:18I mean, around in batteries, around 35% is a scrap, for instance.
32:25Yeah.
32:25This is inefficiency.
32:26So, we need this kind of recycling,
32:28and this could solve also the problem of the raw materials.
32:30Well, not solve, but at least alleviate a bit.
32:33Yeah.
32:33So, I completely agree.
32:35It's something that increasingly keeps me up at night,
32:38that I think the renewable energy industry,
32:40and solar in particular,
32:41we have to think about responsible decommissioning of these sites.
32:45As solar is now sort of reaching a stage in its life
32:48of actually having mature assets that are going to need repowering
32:52or need to be decommissioned,
32:54we will have, I believe, the Harvard Business Review has reported,
32:57and Irina, that we'll have hundreds of billions of pounds
33:00of solar waste on our hands by 2030.
33:0395% of the solar module is recyclable material.
33:07So, that's a huge opportunity,
33:09but it's still incredibly expensive to do the recycling.
33:12It's one to two bucks, one to two dollars,
33:14to have it tossed into a landfill,
33:1718 to 30 per module to have it recycled.
33:20So, there's more R&D and investment
33:23that needs to go into that space,
33:24and then at a certain point,
33:25we will have more of a closed-loop life cycle
33:28on the supply chain of solar,
33:30that is incredibly vulnerable at this point
33:33in terms of its concentration in China
33:36and needing to have, you know, that more distributed.
33:39So, there's lots of different ways we could take that.
33:42How do you measure the carbon footprint
33:45of a renewable energy,
33:47taking into consideration, as we said,
33:49the infrastructure and the entire life cycle?
33:51How do you measure that?
33:55to make sure that, you know,
33:57we are indeed going in the right direction
33:58and not deploy all of the new infrastructure everywhere
34:02to then realize that it wasn't as efficient as we thought.
34:07Yeah, I mean, there are solid tools
34:10to do your life cycle analysis
34:13very thoroughly,
34:14and I mean, the more and more services are offered in this,
34:17but we need a discussion on standards,
34:19and we need also third-party evaluations of this,
34:21because there is not always a strong drive
34:24from an individual sector
34:26to put the right numbers out there.
34:28I mean, if we take offshore wind,
34:31do we include the new ports
34:33with thousands of tons of concrete
34:35that are built just for the big 10, 15 megawatt power plants
34:42that you put up, for example?
34:44I mean...
34:47I think that we have today a problem with measurement,
34:50because we have gone from state of measurement
34:54to try to measure everything,
34:56and we have a problem is that
34:58we launch always, it's two years,
35:01an impact report where we measure all the impact
35:03of the 200 startups that we have.
35:06It's a nightmare to measure all that.
35:09But then the funny thing is that
35:10we have tried different methodologies,
35:12and depending with the methodology,
35:14the results are different.
35:15So, conclusion,
35:17we are not, we don't have a stable methodology yet.
35:21So, I think that for me,
35:24in my simple Spanish woman mentality,
35:27I was thinking, okay,
35:28if at least we start encouraging
35:31the clean energies to start with,
35:35hey, that is a good start, okay?
35:38So, perhaps we are trying to measure something
35:41that we need a bit more time
35:43to know how to measure.
35:45On that, what you can do also
35:49is to measure the number of years
35:51on which we are fully neutral
35:55in terms of carbon during a lifetime of a plant.
35:58I mean, for example, a solar farm,
36:00when you take the full value chain
36:02to build a solar farm,
36:05generally, a solar farm,
36:07the duration of a solar farm is 30 years.
36:09after three years,
36:11you are fully carbon neutral
36:12on a solar farm.
36:14The first three years
36:15is taking into account
36:16the manufacturing of the module,
36:19the fact you took some resources, etc.,
36:22the transportation of the module.
36:24So, a way to measure,
36:25a KPI to measure,
36:26is to take a number of years
36:28after which we are fully carbon neutral
36:31among the lifetime of the plant.
36:35And I'd also add,
36:37I think the geographic location
36:38of the renewable energy technologies
36:40can also have an increasingly large impact
36:46on the emission reducing capabilities.
36:50So, a solar farm that's located
36:52in what's called an energy community,
36:54so a community that has
36:55a complete lack of access to renewables
36:58or anything that is a cleaner technology,
37:01that has a higher impact
37:03to the emission reduction capabilities
37:06of that farm.
37:07Almost twofold, we've found,
37:09in some of our sites in Alaska and Guam.
37:11They're much more impactful
37:12to the communities than in California.
37:15Still important, but different.
37:18There is another angle to it
37:19that this is really in favor of us
37:22that wants to scale up
37:23and drive the renewable transition.
37:25Because if everyone else,
37:27all the other industries,
37:28also are doing this,
37:29they will realize
37:30that they will never get
37:31their numbers together
37:32if they're not feeding
37:33their industrial activities
37:35with renewable energy.
37:37It could be a mine in Indonesia
37:39that want to sell raw materials
37:41to an EV battery factory.
37:44They will not get into the supply chain
37:46if they don't clean up
37:47sort of in their own backyard.
37:49So, it's a lot of responsibilities
37:51to do those and costly
37:53and for small companies
37:54really troublesome,
37:55as Elena says.
37:56but it is also a knowledge
37:58that we need to work with it
38:01and be better at it, I think.
38:03You were just talking
38:04about the supply chain.
38:06What about the security
38:06of the supply chain?
38:07I mean, this is a huge deal,
38:09a huge topic.
38:10I know we could do another
38:11whole roundtable on this topic,
38:13but I think it's still important
38:15to talk about this
38:16when we talk about scaling up renewables,
38:18especially in the light
38:18of what happened
38:19with the war in Ukraine
38:20and everything.
38:21We've seen huge discrepancies
38:23in the security
38:24of the supply chain.
38:25Elena?
38:27Yes.
38:29I mean, I guess
38:31an example.
38:33I mean, last year,
38:34the year 22 here
38:35in Europe,
38:37we deployed 40 gigabas
38:39of solar panels,
38:41PV panels,
38:42which was great.
38:43Okay?
38:43The only thing is that
38:45basically 99%
38:47were coming from
38:48outside Europe,
38:50for instance.
38:51so the thing
38:52is that
38:56this involves
38:57economically
38:5812 billion
38:59of deficit
39:01in euros.
39:03I mean,
39:05the reason why
39:06this is happening
39:07is because of
39:08the part of the value
39:09chain is outside,
39:11for instance,
39:12Europe.
39:12I mean,
39:13in order to have
39:14these PV panels,
39:15you need the whole
39:16supply chain,
39:17and it is not here.
39:18so we need
39:19industrial players.
39:21Okay?
39:21So, for instance,
39:22ingots,
39:23wafers,
39:23only 1%
39:24of the production
39:25is here in Europe.
39:27The rest is outside.
39:29So this is generating
39:30some how we kind of,
39:31okay,
39:31how we can attract
39:32this kind of
39:35industry.
39:36Recently,
39:37last year,
39:38there was the
39:39European
39:41Social Industrial Alliance,
39:42for instance,
39:43in Europe,
39:44that they are trying
39:44to secure
39:45and to create
39:46the manufacturing
39:47capacity in Europe.
39:49And they are trying,
39:50I mean,
39:51the objective is
39:51that in the year 2030
39:53to have 40 gigawatts
39:55on an annual,
39:5630 gigawatts
39:57on an annual
39:58regular basis.
40:00So,
40:01this is one of the problems,
40:02and the competitive gap
40:03is huge
40:04because of the price
40:05of electricity,
40:06because we don't have
40:07machineries here.
40:09I mean,
40:09all this is coming
40:10from abroad,
40:12from basically
40:12from China.
40:13and then also
40:15the thing is
40:15that the competitiveness
40:16is not fair
40:18because here
40:19we are asking
40:20our companies
40:21to be sustainable,
40:22we are asking
40:23our companies
40:24to produce clean,
40:25but then the public
40:26tenders,
40:27the only thing
40:28that they are taking
40:29into account
40:29is the cost.
40:31So,
40:32this is something
40:33that we need
40:34to solve,
40:35and it can be solved,
40:37but we need
40:38to be honest
40:39with this kind
40:40of situation.
40:43on security
40:44of supply,
40:45I think in general
40:46it is easy
40:47to see that
40:48renewable energy
40:49technologies
40:50are peacekeeping
40:52technologies.
40:53The sun shines
40:55all over the world,
40:56the wind blows
40:56all over the world,
40:57so you have
40:58a local source
40:59to start with.
41:00Yes,
41:01there will be
41:01some rare earth metals
41:02and there will be
41:03some bottlenecks
41:05in it,
41:05but not at all
41:07on the same scale
41:07as we have today
41:08with oil and gas
41:10sources very
41:12unevenly distributed.
41:14It's also so
41:15that a lot
41:16of the workforce
41:18and services
41:19are local,
41:20so the value chain
41:22will shift
41:23into more local jobs
41:24when we create
41:26this security
41:27of supply setup.
41:30So,
41:30I think that
41:31it's the right way
41:34to go also
41:35in that perspective.
41:36Thank you.
41:37Yeah,
41:38and I would add,
41:38I mean,
41:39I think some of the
41:40new regulations,
41:41IRA included,
41:42is now encouraging
41:44domestic content
41:45and actually manufacturing
41:46domestically,
41:48apprenticeship programs,
41:49you know,
41:50teaching our workforce
41:51to participate,
41:54and that will ease
41:55some of the global
41:56supply chain vulnerabilities,
41:58but it's whether
41:59or not we can deploy
42:00that piece of it
42:01quickly enough,
42:02I think,
42:03is a key question
42:04that people are still
42:04grappling with,
42:05but I think
42:06the solar industry
42:07over the last few years
42:08has definitely had
42:09a very bumpy road
42:10with supply chain
42:11constraints between
42:12the war in Ukraine,
42:13the pandemic,
42:14tariffs that we,
42:15you know,
42:16that we navigate,
42:17but just this last quarter
42:19would McKenzie
42:21announce that solar
42:22had its best quarter
42:23in history,
42:23so,
42:24and that's kind of
42:25a combination of
42:26the IRA flexing
42:27its muscle
42:27and just supply chain
42:28issues subsiding,
42:30which is good to see.
42:32Thank you very much.
42:33We're coming to the end
42:34of this panel.
42:35I'd like to thank
42:35all of our panelists.
42:37Thank you as well,
42:38the audience,
42:38for being here
42:39and for listening in
42:40to this very exciting
42:41and lively conversation.
42:44Thank you very much
42:45indeed for that.
42:47Thank you.
42:48Thank you.
42:50Thank you.
42:58Thank you.
43:21Thank you.
43:22Thank you.
43:23Thank you.
43:25Thank you.
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