- il y a 12 heures
Markets to Watch Delivery
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00:01Hello everyone and welcome back to VivaTech. Thank you for joining for this session on markets to watch in the
00:09field of delivery. My name is still Asha Sunpert and delighted to be your host this afternoon on stage two.
00:15So this session is the first in a series focusing on major markets shaping the future of tech. And the
00:24food delivery sector has tripled, as you know, in the past five years to become a global market worth more
00:30than $150 billion. Is ready-to-eat food delivery here to last? That's a good question.
00:38And I'm here joined by two wonderful guests on my left, Kan Sommer, the co-founder of Gorillaz, and Antin
00:46Soulier, the founder and CEO of Taster, who I had the great pleasure of having last year on the same
00:52set here. How are you, Antin? It's good to see you again.
00:55Yeah, great to see you again.
00:56And nice to meet you, Kan.
00:59Thank you, thank you. Good to be here.
01:00Yeah, right. So it's exciting to have both of you here. So Kan, I'll begin with you, right?
01:06You launched Gorillaz. Only a couple of years ago, and it has become one of the fastest-growing European unicorns.
01:14How did you do it?
01:17It was a great journey, first of all, yeah.
01:20Like, I think we are on to build something really good.
01:23Like, we enjoy what we do quite a lot.
01:26So it's been two and a half years, more or less.
01:30And what has happened is we basically put a vision-driven foundation.
01:35We built our business on top, and we try to do good for, you know, like, our stakeholders.
01:42And this is more or less what's happening.
01:44We quite enjoy giving immediate access to essential needs.
01:47Sometimes it's simple things. You just need to love what you do.
01:50Yeah, yeah. Like, it's, I mean, it's quite interesting, you know?
01:53I've never done it before, so that's why it's quite challenging in a good way.
01:57And also for my team.
02:00So you're enjoying it?
02:01Yeah, yeah. Like, in general, I mean, yeah, of course, there are things that you enjoy right away.
02:07There are things that you learn to enjoy.
02:09But all in all, I love it.
02:11Okay, so we're going to speak about that in detail in a few seconds.
02:15And so, Anton, you're the founder of Taster.
02:18Taster is a network of over 210 digital restaurants across Europe.
02:23So you've created food brands that are entirely dedicated to delivery, actually.
02:30So do you think digital restaurants could take over physical ones?
02:36Yeah, wait. Like, five years ago, we launched Taster to create, like, iconic food designs for delivery.
02:43So, like, in five years, we became, like, the seventh biggest market share on the delivery platform in France and
02:50in Belgium.
02:51However, I really think that, you know, the physical restaurants won't disappear.
02:57I think people will continue going to the restaurants.
02:59I'm relieved.
03:01But when they are going to the restaurants, they are going to look for an experience.
03:04You know, you are going out with friends.
03:06You are sharing, like, an experience.
03:09When it comes to fast food, which is, like, a $700 billion market, it's a bit different.
03:15Like, would you go on a Saturday evening in a McDonald's restaurant on a Saturday evening?
03:20Probably not.
03:21You will look for, like, an experience.
03:22I usually don't go there.
03:23Sorry, McDonald's.
03:24For that type of food, actually, people prefer, like, the convenience of ordering online.
03:30So, what we've seen in the, kind of, like, QSR, so quick-selling restaurant industry, is now, like, 50%
03:38of the orders are going through, like, the digital channels.
03:40So, if you take a McDonald's, they are doing more orders on delivery, Uber Eats, just it, than people, like,
03:47sitting in the restaurants now.
03:48So, it really offers, like, a huge opportunity.
03:51And we really believe that the next, like, digital franchise will be, like, a digital business.
03:59And, I mean, we hope it will be a taster.
04:00So, it will be coexisting with the existing physical restaurants that we know and have their own place in the
04:09market.
04:09Yeah, I think the, like, the fast food industry will end up being, like, almost entirely digital.
04:16That's the thing.
04:18And at Taster, we want to, we really want to, kind of, like, pioneer this and just, like, become the
04:23best and, basically, the next McDonald's.
04:26All right.
04:26So, what do you, how do you see the future?
04:30How do you see your business model evolving in the next few years?
04:35Next few years or, like, five, ten years?
04:37Okay, up to you.
04:38Tell me.
04:39I mean, I'm fascinated with the ten years.
04:41What can this become?
04:43But at the moment, you know, as the markets turn upside down, we are super focused on three months, six
04:48months.
04:48But I think it's a good platform to talk a little bit about, like, ten years.
04:56What I really love is, it's the most primitive need that we have, yeah?
05:02Like, imagine you're in the cave, you know, 20,000 years ago.
05:06You're hungry.
05:07You grab that apple in ten minutes, like, less than ten minutes.
05:10You select your cave next to the tree, yeah?
05:13But at the moment, we don't have that.
05:15At the moment, we have retail chains quite far from it.
05:18It's not like the apple in front of your cave.
05:22So, the first step is to bring this.
05:24Like, this is this year, next year, the year after.
05:27And what I see is, as we do this, the disruption doesn't happen in how people reach to their food.
05:35The real disruption happens is, the disruption is happening with 2,500 products,
05:41rather than, like, 50,000 products in Walmarts or, like, in, you know, in other retailers.
05:48So, the second phase is, three to five years, I believe we're going to have a complete different consumption that
05:56we're going to create.
05:57One example.
05:58So, Oatly, right?
05:59Like, Oatly.
06:00But everyone drinking milk, like, five years ago.
06:04Everyone drinks milk.
06:05Milk is shit.
06:06Up.
06:06You can, with Oat, you can do Oatly.
06:09Beer.
06:10Everyone drinks beer.
06:11Beer has calories.
06:12Hard salsa.
06:13Nutella.
06:13Everyone drinks Nutella.
06:14Nutella has sugar.
06:15Nut butter.
06:16So, there's going to be a lot of categories that's going to come.
06:19This is, like, three to five years.
06:22Once you have 10 minutes proximity to the customers and the products for the future,
06:31then you really have a full-stack retailer.
06:33And at that point, imagine this.
06:35Cut me if I'm talking too much, yeah?
06:38I will.
06:38Don't worry.
06:39So, imagine a society that doesn't need anything.
06:43I mean, just a second.
06:44You don't, I need, I mean, I need water now.
06:47I need berries now.
06:47But if I would know what I would want at this moment, actually, you can create a society
06:55that doesn't need anything.
06:56And that's today's technology.
06:58Like, if I would have my sleeping ring, you would know that I didn't sleep.
07:01I want water.
07:02I want berries.
07:02And gorillas can reach, I don't know here, but many of the inner cities in 10 minutes.
07:08So, actually, the potential of the model is super transformative.
07:13So, in 10 years, there might be a society that needs nothing when it comes to groceries.
07:20But next three months, we're not doing that, yeah?
07:23Next three months, it's all about becoming a business and becoming a more sustainable business.
07:27So, you just touched up on that, Anton, but how do you see the future?
07:32I mean, for you, for TASTA?
07:34Yeah, so, on our side, we are, like, we are really focused on, kind of, like, bringing high-quality food
07:40outside of the capital and to, like, secondary cities.
07:43So, we are live in four markets at the moment.
07:46So, we're in France, UK, Spain, and Belgium.
07:48We are obviously operate, like, we are live in capitals.
07:52But we are expanding very fast in secondary cities.
07:56So, our model is basically supported by a network of, like, franchise entrepreneurs.
08:01So, we have, like, a CapEx-like model that relies on, like, entrepreneurs, franchisees to operate the food.
08:08And that really allows us to, kind of, like, deliver a customer experience, like, very deep.
08:16So, currently, we are in, like, 50 cities across these four markets.
08:20And we are launching, like, two new cities every week right now.
08:23So, we are, like, going very, very fast in terms of rollout.
08:26And we see, like, huge traction in these secondary cities because, by definition, there is very little offering.
08:33You know, when we go outside of Paris, London,
08:35London, I mean, I don't want to give any stereotype, but basically, you have, like, fish and chips and bad
08:41factories.
08:42You see what I mean?
08:42So, when we arrive with our brands and everything, we see, like, very huge traction from day one.
08:47So, that's, like, the first thing, really, expansion.
08:49And the second thing is we currently have, like, five blockbuster brands.
08:54So, five brands that we co-created with celebrities, YouTubers, entrepreneurs.
09:00Okay.
09:00We want to expand this portfolio of brands to offer, like, more diversity and quality.
09:05So, we are currently working on what is going to be, like, the biggest partnership ever that we've done with,
09:12like, one of the three biggest chefs in the world.
09:14Wow.
09:15That I'm not going to announce today, but it's going to be live in September.
09:18And that's going to be, like, something very exciting for us because, you know, like, everyone is very excited by
09:24these celebrities, by these chefs.
09:26And then, you know, we want really to create, like, an amazing kind of, like, entertainment when we bring this
09:32chef on board.
09:34So, that's going to be, like, the big announcement that we're going to make in September.
09:38And then, we want to add, like, more brands along the way.
09:40The idea is to kind of, like, create a vicious cycle where we have the scale, so we are available
09:44in multiple cities.
09:45And we can also offer these kind of, like, food celebrities the scale and the network to kind of, like,
09:52scale the digital brands.
09:53And what do you think the current market conditions and what has been happening during the past two years, has
09:59it accelerated your business, respectively?
10:02Han?
10:04Of course.
10:06If you look at the last two years, you see the biggest bull cycle of the whole world's economy.
10:11And everyone was a winner, everyone had big rounds, everyone had big valuations, and Gorillaz also took part of that.
10:19Like, I'm sure, Anton, maybe you also experienced the same thing.
10:22Yeah, absolutely.
10:24And if you look at that, everyone was a winner.
10:28But what happens, like, over the course of last, I would say, three months, four months, is the slowest begin
10:34of the year.
10:35The recession is expected to come, and it creates a huge wealth transfer, you know?
10:40And wealth transfer is happening from me explaining you to 10-year vision to me explaining you a sustainable, profitable
10:49business.
10:51And that's a super good change, to be honest, because we were living sometimes too much in our vision.
10:58We still live there, but there should be a grounded plan that's to be followed, to become a business.
11:04And this is what we are doing now.
11:06Like, so we run the business towards profitability and adapt to change what's happening in the markets.
11:12Is it the same for you, Anton?
11:13Yeah, I think, I mean, you know, like, the food market, like, the food category, I mean, it's obviously a
11:20huge category.
11:21Like, people are eating three times a day.
11:22So it's, like, almost an infinite category, and sometimes we forgot that it's barely online, actually.
11:28You know, so that's why there were, like, a crazy amount of money injected in this category.
11:33It's just because it's barely online compared to other categories, such as, like, travel, fashion.
11:38Fashion, you know, fashion, like, it's 80%, with travel as well, of basically the category being digitalized.
11:45Food is something around, like, 10%.
11:47So even with everything that we are seeing, the current environment, it's really just the beginning.
11:52So there is, like, a huge opportunity.
11:54You mean there's a huge growth potential?
11:56I mean, infinite huge, I mean, infinite growth for this product.
12:01For instant food delivery.
12:02And we've seen it as well, like...
12:03I love how you say it, by the way.
12:05Infinite huge.
12:06What we've seen, especially, you know, after COVID, some people were like,
12:10oh, you know, it's just, like, a COVID business.
12:12It's just going to drop and everything.
12:14I don't know what you've seen, but we haven't seen, like, any kind of, like, you know, like, slowing down.
12:21It's just kind of, like...
12:22Even if people are going back to restaurants again, physical, I mean, real restaurants with walls,
12:29and the delivery business is still thriving.
12:33I mean, of course, we didn't see any drop.
12:37Actually, we see a bit more uplift, and we were expecting it.
12:40But I think we are looking from a different perspective.
12:44Yes, COVID accelerated the adoption.
12:47And after COVID, a small dip, but, like, a nominal increase for sure from the start.
12:52But I think what COVID fundamentally changed is maybe half of us here, like, maybe 80%,
13:00we went to our houses, and that first day, you thought that, oh, my God, I'm dying.
13:07And that triggered some questions that only a small group of hippies were asking, you know?
13:11Why do I live?
13:13Why does it matter?
13:14What's my purpose?
13:15What do I do for the world?
13:18And this is the first generation that's exposed to that kind of a mass question, I think.
13:23And people want to do much better for the world, and people want to do much better for themselves
13:29after this COVID, in my point of view.
13:32And that will have a tremendous change in potential in all of our industries.
13:39Rather than it accelerates or it decelerates, I think this is the biggest change.
13:43Right.
13:45We'll talk about sustainability also in a few seconds.
13:49But before that, there are some challenges on the way.
13:52So we've seen there's increased regulation in your industry.
13:57For example, the limits on the presence of dog stores.
14:00We've seen what's happening in city centers or, you know, protection for flexible workers.
14:06There are lots of questions around delivery, the delivery business.
14:09And I think you guys have also a responsibility to make sure that we go on the right path.
14:14So what can you say on that?
14:16I can start.
14:17So basically, on our side, what you need to know is like 25% of our franchisees have like a
14:26front store.
14:27So they have like actually a facade already.
14:29So basically, when you have a facade, it looks like more or less like a kiosk.
14:34So you can go, you can do some click and collect, you have like a physical interaction with the restaurants.
14:39I think, I truly think it's like the winning model.
14:44We don't, we, I think we really see our model evolving toward like more transparency,
14:51more kind of like multi-channel demand generation as well.
14:56So doing like more and more like click and collect and takeaway as well.
14:58So I think, yeah, we need to play a part as well in this kind of like evolution of the
15:03model.
15:03And I think every, everyone is winning as well.
15:05You know, for example, when we think about the, the, the part of the click and collect, you know, model,
15:10it's now like about like 10% and we want to push this like 20%.
15:14And why it's like interesting, the customer, when they are going to a kitchen or a kiosk,
15:20they are not paying any delivery fee.
15:23Our franchises are saving like logistic costs.
15:25And because we take like transaction as well, transaction fees,
15:30our transaction are like slightly higher on click and collect.
15:32So it's great, like a really interesting, like virtual cycle.
15:36And I think it's also really offering like way more transparency for the customer
15:40because they can see like where the food is cooked,
15:43that there are like really people in the kitchens.
15:44And I think it creates a kind of amazing virtual cycle for me.
15:49What's your take on that, Khan?
15:51The regulations, right?
15:53I find it, first of all, I find it quite normal.
15:59And, and it's actually a really, I'm proud that this happens because if you look at the history,
16:06all of the big and transformative industries are subject to some kind of a sense check.
16:14And this sense check, and if you look at authorities, media, neighbors,
16:20these people, they are like the voice of the people.
16:22And having that sense check from voice of the people makes us think.
16:26And when we think about it on the dark store side, for example,
16:30for example, we said, okay, first, we need to select the places quite wisely,
16:35which we discovered quite early in the game.
16:38But second, we need to also make sure that this is a, this is a, this is a, this is
16:43a part of a neighborhood.
16:44So that's why we change, now change the facades in, in, in Bastille, in Bastille, I don't know how to
16:50say.
16:51Yeah.
16:51In Bastille, there's a, there's a store that's with full covered with arts.
16:55We have this local artist actually contributing to the neighborhood.
16:59This is one thing that we do.
17:01And second thing is, of course, we talk to governments and authorities and policymakers to really find what good looks
17:09like and, and make this happen.
17:12And, yeah.
17:13Yeah, yeah.
17:14No, no, I'm good.
17:15Okay.
17:15Right.
17:16Speaking about those flexible workers also, what can you say about that?
17:21I mean, how do you see the future for that?
17:23We need more regulation there.
17:24We need to make sure that we, they're being taken care of in the proper way.
17:28Are they, are they being taken care of in the proper way?
17:33So, I ask you a question.
17:36I like that.
17:37Yeah.
17:37Let's say that you run the company.
17:39You need to buy me lunch then.
17:41Yeah, yeah, yeah.
17:41Ask me questions.
17:42Okay, for sure.
17:43I do that.
17:45Let's say that you have 10,000 riders, biker crew, and you make a survey.
17:51What's the most important thing for you?
17:54What would they, what do you think they would say as the first answer?
17:58For the riders?
17:59What do you think, what do you think they value the most?
18:05I, I think, if you want to be efficient.
18:09No, no, not me.
18:10I ask my crew.
18:11I have 10,000 people.
18:13Working for you.
18:14I want to take care of them.
18:15That's why I ask them.
18:16What makes you happy?
18:17Out of 10, how happy are you?
18:18And why are you happy?
18:20What would they rank, like, the first?
18:22I think the money, the remuneration, and I don't know, maybe efficiency, resources.
18:30They need to do their jobs properly.
18:32And also to have, probably, culture, I would say, a good culture.
18:40So, first row is flexibility.
18:43They want flexibility.
18:44Because it's not a, it's not, it's a very hard job.
18:47I don't know, like, I did at least, like, 2,000, 3,000 orders myself.
18:52I still do it.
18:52And it's not, it's not really to do, easy to do full time.
18:56So, that's why people really want to do it in the times that they want to do it.
19:00And they, more often times, they do as a second job.
19:03That brings you to the second point.
19:05They want enough pay to support their dreams.
19:12Yeah.
19:13And third thing is, they want stability.
19:17So, I think, when we, when you ask this question to me, what regulators think about it?
19:24Are they taking care of, in your mind, are you employing your riders?
19:28This was probably, like, this is the biggest question.
19:30But, when I ask my people, very few, they want to be employed.
19:35They want flexibility.
19:36So, but, of course, they also want security and they want good pay.
19:40And they want their dream, they want us to support with what they want, language courses and everything.
19:45So, there's a midway of these with multiple contracts.
19:49And this is what we're creating at the moment at Gorillaz.
19:53But, to give some numbers, we have 70% of our crew is employed.
19:58And 30% third-party logistics, we employ our people.
20:02Second thing is, 500 of our riders are in our organization doing other things.
20:07We have our, we give our riders our e-bikes.
20:11This kind of stuff is, like, the standards we set in the industry.
20:15Before us, it wasn't like that.
20:16And, and I went to China with my bike.
20:19I love, I love riding.
20:20We are a company that riding is one of our values.
20:26So, perceived that way, not perceived that way, that I don't know.
20:29But, my team, we care about riding in our culture.
20:33Very brief, if you want to build on that.
20:36Yeah, I think so.
20:37We are not, like, a logistic company or delivery platform.
20:40We are, like, a food company and we are working with delivery platforms.
20:42I think it's a bit different.
20:43So, we are not really involved in the logistic part of it.
20:46So, you know, we are obviously, like, working very closely with delivery platforms.
20:50Yeah, but you want to make sure also that.
20:52Yeah, absolutely.
20:53I mean, we are working very closely.
20:55We are, like, we are in four markets that have, like, very different laws.
20:59So, basically, in Belgium and Spain, they are, like, full-time employees.
21:03The riders in the UK, France are still freelancers.
21:07So, it really depends on the different models.
21:09But, I think, like, it's just, like, evolving, I think, in the right direction.
21:12But, yeah, we are working closely with the platform as well for that.
21:15Right.
21:15I'll take a question here.
21:16This one is from Philip, asking,
21:19But, when things are going to normal, you're now experiencing a slowdown in growth.
21:26Okay, I'll rephrase that.
21:27So, the markets are tough.
21:30There's a slowdown.
21:32Does this apply to all e-commerce players like Amazon or Coupang in South Korea?
21:38What are you seeing?
21:39And, in your company, there were some layoffs.
21:43So, how are you going to deal with it?
21:45What's happening?
21:46Do you want to touch on that?
21:50So, I think the question has two parts.
21:53Like, the market slowdown is one.
21:56And, I think there are two questions.
22:01One is the industry is expected to slow.
22:04And, second one is the layoffs.
22:06So, in our data, we haven't seen any decline.
22:13Having said that, we expect a decline.
22:20Because, all of us in this room, because of the inflation, we get poorer.
22:26And, in the grocery, we expect lower baskets.
22:28We expect less items.
22:30And, this applies to all industries.
22:31But, you know what happened?
22:32When we, but we are still in this, well, we are a $700 million company at the moment, revenue-wise.
22:40It's a trillion-dollar industry.
22:41We are still in this super small part of the market that's less price-sensitive.
22:46But, still, we adjusted our assortment accordingly.
22:50What I mean by that is we added some entry categories for our customers to make their choices.
22:56And, that actually made our community shift more of their purchases to us.
23:03So, we actually saw an increase in the volume per customer.
23:08On the layoffs part, it's a super sensitive topic.
23:11And, it's a topic that's very close to any founder.
23:14I mean, it matured me as a person.
23:17And, I'm a different person after that.
23:19So, it has one personal side.
23:20And, I don't know how much I should talk about that.
23:23It's a very intimate topic for me.
23:26But, what I can tell you is everyone is associating layoffs, especially in a fast-paced environment, to beginning from
23:37an end.
23:38But, it's actually, it's not like that.
23:40It's a continuation of an evolving business.
23:43And, I think, especially, if you, if, and there are many young people that are supporting startups.
23:50And, on paper, everyone loves technology.
23:52But, real hard job is doing this kind of stuff.
23:56So, what, like, I can tell you how we deal, like, personally, Flip.
24:01But, I think the mindset of all of us that supports tech should be, okay, they did some hard decisions.
24:07Most probably, they didn't want that.
24:09But, like, how can we, how can we, you know, look at it in a positive way and really understand
24:17the impact of it?
24:19Like, because if you look at QuickCommerce, we began with 30 players.
24:24There were 30 players, Gen 22, Gen 2020.
24:27There were 15 players, Gen 2021.
24:31There are now four players, Gen 2022.
24:36And, there are not going to be four players, I think, in Gen 2023.
24:43So, there's a survival game.
24:45And, there are some hard decisions attached to it.
24:49And, this is the, this is basically how we deal.
24:52We look at forward and we keep the legacy of people that we had to let go as hard as
24:58possible with the remaining people.
25:00And, the life cycle of the business.
25:01Yeah, Anton, just probably, what would you like, if I could wish you something, what would that be?
25:08Sorry, say again?
25:09If I could wish you something, what could that be?
25:11I mean, more brands, more food, more growth.
25:14Like, yeah, no, I think we are, like, we are, like, still in a very exciting market, in a very
25:19exciting category.
25:21I mean, everyone is, like, scared about, you know, the economic decline and everything.
25:26The rates is, we don't know.
25:27And, I think, what we've seen in food is, it's relatively a crisis resilient category.
25:31Like, people keep buying.
25:34And, like, historically, the food market has basically, like, survived, like, pretty well in crisis.
25:39So, I mean, as you can probably see, I'm very bullish with this market.
25:45Again, I think it's just the beginning.
25:46So, yeah, well, I'm still, like, very confident about it.
25:50Fantastic.
25:50Bullish and confident also for you, Tan.
25:53Sorry?
25:53Bullish and confident.
25:55Yeah, for the market, for sure.
25:57For the QCommerce, for sure.
25:58And for Gorillaz, for sure.
26:01And it's damn exciting, you know?
26:03What can I say?
26:04Fantastic.
26:04So, that's all for now.
26:07Thank you so much.
26:08Our time is up.
26:08It was great to have this conversation with you.
26:10Many thanks to both of you.
26:12And thanks for listening.
26:13Thank you, guys.
26:14And we will be back in a couple of minutes for another hot topic, fintech.
26:18So, keep bear with us and also those behind their screens.
26:22Stage two, click on the banner, and we'll see you in a bit.
26:25Thank you.
26:25Thank you.
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