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Why is the Energy Transition (Im)possible
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00:02Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
00:30So this year's Viva Tech is bringing together startups, entrepreneurs, corporates, VCs, academics and media to ignite growth, business transformation
00:41and of course positive change.
00:43Over 350 speakers, 300 innovations and thousands of startups have joined us to share the best in the world of
00:51tech for business and society of course.
00:54So let's dive into the fundamental issue of our time. It's the climate crisis and the race to net zero.
01:02This is going to be a three hour session on decarbonisation and it's going to be divided into six separate
01:08conversations this morning.
01:10With our guests today we'll be debating on various different challenges as we aim to explore how to lead this
01:16highly complex energy transition.
01:18We're going to be looking into the challenges behind achieving this transition, nuclear fusion as a new way forward, green
01:26tech and circular economy.
01:29So please stay with us for the next three hours. You'll be able to participate.
01:32You have your application phones. If you have any questions please send them through.
01:37And those of you who are watching us of course you can send through your questions via the chat.
01:41So let's kick off with our first discussion which explores the most important question.
01:46Is the energy transition really possible and how can we make it accessible to all?
02:17So for this first discussion I'm absolutely thrilled to have my guests who have joined me on the set as
02:22by magic here.
02:23We have Yerim, you are general partner at Extensia Capital. How are you?
02:28Good. It's great to be here.
02:30Wonderful. He's very happy this morning.
02:31Emily Morene-Renoir, you are innovation director at Air Liquid. How are you doing?
02:36I'm doing good. Good morning everyone.
02:38Fantastic. Alexandre Tour, you are CEO of Easy Solar. Nice to have you with us.
02:43Thanks. Yeah. Good morning everyone. Great to be here.
02:46And John Young, you are president of Energy Vault Solutions. How are you doing, John?
02:51There's a microphone somewhere nearby.
02:53I think so. That's a good way to test.
02:54Wonderful. It's a good way to test. Keep the microphones quite close to your mouth.
02:57There's a lot of noise around so we want to be able to hear you very clearly this morning.
03:01So we're moving forward with a great discussion of course to open the show.
03:06Our ability to achieve emission targets within the 2050 timeline is obviously being called to question.
03:15This leaves us with tough issues to be addressed, of course.
03:18Can the clean energy industry stand on its own feet without government subsidiaries?
03:23How can we ensure this transition leaves no one behind?
03:26We're going to be addressing these issues together this morning.
03:29Yeah, I'm going to start with you.
03:31Thank you. You are a partner at Extansia Capital, as I mentioned.
03:35Extansia is a platform for investing in European breakthrough technology solutions
03:40that address obviously the climate crisis. That's our subject this morning.
03:44The most recent report by the International Energy Agency states
03:48to reach net zero emissions by 2050,
03:51annual clean energy investment worldwide will need to be
03:54more than triple by 2030 to around $4 trillion.
04:00How can we ensure this surge in clean energy investment actually happens here?
04:06Well, Louise, that's the trillion dollar question.
04:08I know.
04:10So I think let's start with the fact that the money is out there.
04:14It's there. It's today being invested in fossil fuel based businesses.
04:18And basically what we need to do is quite simple.
04:22We need to shift that from fossil fuel based investments
04:27to renewable clean energies.
04:29Now, easy said, but what we need to do is now,
04:33if there are politicians here,
04:35then actually you need to do all kinds of regulations,
04:38increase carbon tax, the prices,
04:41put regulations that favors all these transitions.
04:46Now, since we are here in Vivatech as technologies
04:50and all of us are working on technology,
04:52let's focus on that aspect.
04:54So we need to develop those alternatives,
04:57those technologies that you need in order to enable the transition.
05:02Now, people tend to think that we already have everything,
05:04but actually 50% of the technologies that would take us to the net zero
05:08are still not there.
05:10And we as technologies, as VC investors,
05:13as corporates, as startup founders,
05:15we need to invent them.
05:17Now, on the macro level,
05:19it's not just the technologies,
05:21it's for the banks, for the sovereign wealth funds.
05:24What we actually do,
05:26we develop financial instruments
05:29where they can take that divested capital
05:32and funnel it into clean energy topics.
05:37Okay, great.
05:38So we're going to go into a little bit more detail,
05:40obviously, on that subject
05:41a little bit later on in another discussion.
05:43I'm going to move on with you, Emily.
05:45I'm continuing on the financial aspect of this transition.
05:48You are the head of innovation at Air Liquid,
05:51a global leader in industrial gases.
05:54Can you tell us what Air Liquid is focusing on
05:57and how you're working to make clean solutions
06:01financially acceptable,
06:02thus, obviously, accessible?
06:05Absolutely.
06:06So our focus at Air Liquid is really energy transition
06:10and reducing CO2 emissions,
06:13both our CO2 emissions and our customers.
06:16So we have a commitment.
06:18Through 2025,
06:20half of our industrial investments
06:22will be dedicated to energy transition-related projects.
06:26So that would be 8 billion euros.
06:28We also have a commitment to carbon neutrality by 2050
06:32with a milestone in 2035,
06:35where we will reduce by 33% our overall CO2 emissions.
06:40Now, our focus is on really three things.
06:42Hydrogen, the production of green hydrogen
06:44through electrolyzers for different use,
06:47industry, but also transportation,
06:49cars, buses, trucks,
06:51and maybe tomorrow, trains and planes.
06:55So no CO2, no NOx at the point of use.
07:00The second one is biomethane.
07:02So we are having all the technologies
07:04to extract the biogas out of the waste,
07:08purify it, transform it into biomethane
07:10to replace natural gas.
07:12So it's really transforming waste into energy.
07:15And the third one I want to mention
07:16is really carbon capture and storage,
07:18which is one of our focus as well
07:20for industries that are hard to abate.
07:22I really believe the solution will be key in the future.
07:25And to finish up with,
07:27I'd like to mention digital,
07:28which is going to be absolutely key
07:30in the energy transition field as well.
07:33So all the data we have,
07:36all the data we can process,
07:37and using AI-based algorithms
07:39will also help optimize
07:41and bring efficiencies to all the industries.
07:44And for us, for instance,
07:45just as one example,
07:47through digital tools,
07:48we want to optimize our supply chain,
07:51reduce our transportation
07:52and kilometers driven,
07:54which will be, of course,
07:56CO2 emissions avoided at the end of the day.
07:58Of course.
07:59Great.
07:59Thanks for the presentation.
08:00John, I'm going to come to John now.
08:02You're a president.
08:03You are the president of Energy Vault Solutions,
08:05a company creating long-duration energy solutions,
08:09of course.
08:09Can you tell us without getting too technical,
08:13how your tech works
08:14and how you're different
08:16from other renewable energy storage solutions, John?
08:20Yeah, happy to.
08:21Energy Vault is a company that has gone public.
08:24We did an IPO at NYSE on February 14th,
08:27which I think is Valentine's Day.
08:29It is.
08:29In most parts of the world.
08:30So we're deploying our gravity-based technology
08:36in places like China and Texas,
08:39which is also known as ERCOT.
08:41But the company really believes in an agnostic view
08:44of how to optimize a lot of grid assets.
08:47So in addition to the fact that, you know,
08:50pumped hydro is over 90% of the capacity
08:53of energy storage today globally
08:55and creating a more environmentally sustainable
08:59and more dispatchable version of that technology,
09:03I think, you know,
09:05as I take a look at the technologies
09:06that we're in the midst of deploying,
09:08it incorporates innovation from hydrogen entrepreneurs,
09:13market design reformation
09:15that's happening in places like California and CAISO,
09:18as well as a lot of governments
09:20that are not only broadly behind the mandate
09:24for carbon reduction, GHG reduction,
09:27but also tweaking a lot of laws
09:30that would provide subsidies, for instance.
09:32So, you know, our company is very busy
09:35delivering a lot of the gravitational,
09:37which is essentially,
09:38without getting too technical,
09:409.81 meters per second squared
09:42times the mass times the height
09:43in terms of potential energy.
09:45And then it's converted into kinetic energy,
09:47which is about half mv square,
09:49and into inverter-based electricity.
09:51That's how you generate the electricity
09:53when you need it.
09:54But the world is a bigger place
09:56that has a myriad of different technologies,
09:58from green to gray hydrogen
10:00to battery-based energy storage
10:02to, you know, long-duration technologies
10:04like those that we offer.
10:06And we believe in not only what we do,
10:09but also orchestrating and maximizing
10:11all these other technologies
10:13that, you know, many customers have at the moment.
10:16Okay, great.
10:17Thanks very much, John.
10:19Alexandre, you are CEO of Easy Solar,
10:22a company providing clean energy
10:24to off-grid communities in Western Africa.
10:28How do we define and measure access to energy?
10:32To what extent is this the key
10:34to realizing the energy transition,
10:36could we say?
10:37Sure.
10:38Yeah, happy to take a shot.
10:39I mean, there's many definitions.
10:40Yeah.
10:41I think generally speaking,
10:43probably most of the people in this room
10:45actually probably grew up in a home,
10:47in a city, in a country
10:49where we rarely sort of actively think
10:52about electricity, right?
10:53Like you press a switch,
10:54the light comes on.
10:54The light comes on, yeah.
10:55Like you plug in your phone,
10:56you know, it charges,
10:57you turn the TV on,
10:58it turns on.
10:59And what we often tend to either forget
11:02or actually ignore
11:04is that there's like just slightly,
11:07just below 1 billion people today in 2022
11:11for which this is not a reality.
11:14There's about 950 million people today
11:17that don't have access to energy,
11:19whether it's for lighting,
11:21charging something,
11:22powering appliances,
11:23or for cooking, actually.
11:24And so, you know,
11:25really this is the simple definition
11:26of energy access.
11:27This is what we work on
11:28at Easy Solar.
11:29We operate in Sierra Leone,
11:31Liberia, and Guinea soon as well.
11:33And that's, I think, a core issue.
11:35You were asking whether it's key,
11:37you know, on the energy transition question.
11:39I think, you know,
11:41it's both sort of completely unrelated
11:43to the energy transition question
11:45from a human perspective.
11:46Because, I mean, quite frankly,
11:47outside of any, you know,
11:48energy transition question,
11:50I think everyone realizes
11:51that a billion people
11:52without access to energy is bad.
11:54It's something that we should work on solving,
11:56you know, and so it has its own agenda,
11:57its own level of urgency,
11:59you know, attached to it.
12:00But at the same time,
12:01it's completely related
12:02to the energy transition.
12:04Because I think it would be a shame
12:05if we had, you know,
12:06an energy transition
12:07in most developed economies
12:08and we left a billion,
12:10you know, people on the side
12:11of that transition
12:12that still either would not
12:13have access to energy
12:15or would have access to,
12:16you know, a sort of dirty,
12:18a non-clean source of energy.
12:19And the question today is,
12:21are those people going to go
12:22through the same cycle
12:23of dirty source of energy,
12:25slightly less dirty,
12:26slightly less dirty,
12:27or can we leapfrog
12:29from no energy to clean energy?
12:31And so, you know,
12:32this is what we try to achieve,
12:34I think,
12:34in the energy access industry.
12:35And this is why
12:36those conversations
12:37are so important
12:37between people
12:38who work on energy transition
12:39and people who work
12:40on energy access.
12:41Because I think the only way
12:43that we can have
12:44a just transition,
12:45a transition that's inclusive,
12:46is if those conversations happen
12:48and if we work together
12:49so that energy access
12:50and energy transition
12:51work hand in hand.
12:52And that's what we're trying
12:53to do here today as well
12:54by uniting the four of you
12:57here on the set today.
12:58So don't forget that
12:59as we're discussing,
13:00I mean, guys,
13:01this is an organic discussion,
13:02of course.
13:03You who are watching us
13:04and in the audience,
13:05if you have any questions,
13:06get them coming through.
13:07I've got an iPad here.
13:09We're all connected.
13:10So go for it.
13:12So there are obviously
13:14many different solutions
13:16out there on the market today.
13:18How do you go about
13:20choosing the solutions,
13:22the right solutions
13:24to scale up?
13:25Yeah, I'd like to start
13:25with you on this one.
13:27That's a great question.
13:29So what we do at Extantia
13:31is a very long process
13:35that we call carbon math
13:36and we look at the edge company
13:40that goes into our pipeline.
13:42We try to say,
13:44what is the emission
13:45reduction potential
13:46that that company
13:48would have at scale?
13:49And we try to assess
13:50whether this is a small change
13:53or this is actually
13:54going to move the needle
13:55and be in the hundreds
13:58of megatons of savings
14:00per annum.
14:01Now, that's definitely
14:02one aspect.
14:03Another aspect
14:04which is related
14:05is the time to impact.
14:07A carbon abated today
14:10is not equal
14:12to carbon sequestered tomorrow.
14:14We cannot just say,
14:16okay, we will wait
14:17till tomorrow
14:17and tomorrow
14:18we will have the machines
14:19that will undo
14:20all the stuff
14:21that we've done before.
14:22We have to take action today.
14:24So we definitely
14:25favor technologies
14:27that are more mature
14:28and ready to deploy
14:29already today.
14:31Yeah, because there's a time issue,
14:32isn't there as well?
14:33The time and I would say
14:36the secondary effects
14:39that we don't calculate
14:40an account to today.
14:42So we think that
14:43one ton is one ton
14:44but like in financial instruments
14:47if you do discounted cash flow
14:49one dollar today
14:50is like one dollar tomorrow.
14:52The same goes for carbon emissions.
14:55It's exactly the same
14:57because if you emit
14:58and you do harm
14:59to the algaes,
15:01to the reefs,
15:02to the animal wildlife,
15:04what is that worth
15:05to undo that in the future?
15:08Okay.
15:09Emily?
15:10Building on what
15:10Yair was just saying
15:11on the timing,
15:13I think what we try to do
15:14in the industry
15:15is try to have
15:16two time horizons.
15:18The first one is
15:19there's an urgency
15:20to act now
15:21and we have a lot of technologies
15:23which are available
15:24so it's just a matter
15:25of willingness
15:26to deploy them
15:27and go as fast as we can.
15:28So that's what we do
15:29at Ehrlich Tid.
15:30Deploy
15:32everywhere
15:32what is already available.
15:34And the second time horizon
15:36is more like long term
15:37is in parallel
15:38develop the new technologies
15:40or improve the ones
15:41that exist today
15:42for the decade
15:44and the ones
15:45that are going to be mature
15:46at the end of the decade.
15:48And we really need
15:48to do both together.
15:50Both together,
15:51of course.
15:52There's a very strong
15:54sense of urgency.
15:55I mean,
15:55we can feel it all around us
15:56as a human being,
15:59as a citoyen,
16:00a français.
16:01We can really,
16:02really feel it
16:02as we're going along.
16:04But some sectors,
16:06we feel like
16:07they're not moving
16:08fast enough.
16:10why is the transformation
16:11still slow
16:13as far as you guys
16:14are concerned?
16:14I don't know.
16:15Alexandre?
16:15Sure.
16:16I mean,
16:16I'll speak from the perspective
16:17of energy access,
16:19which is,
16:19as we said,
16:20sort of related
16:20but not exactly
16:22the same
16:22as the one
16:23of energy transition.
16:24but,
16:25you know,
16:25obviously,
16:26I mean,
16:26the obvious ones
16:27are around capital.
16:28That's definitely one.
16:29And most of the energy
16:30access issues
16:31take place
16:32in sub-Saharan Africa.
16:34There's still a lot
16:35of sort of,
16:35you know,
16:36stigma
16:36and misunderstanding
16:37of a lot of those markets
16:38for a lot of investors.
16:40So I think a lot
16:40of my time
16:41is really spent,
16:42you know,
16:43explaining to people
16:43that there's more
16:45to Sierra Leone
16:46than the civil war
16:47that was done
16:4820 years ago
16:48in Blood Diamond
16:49with,
16:49you know,
16:50DiCaprio.
16:51And that you can
16:52actually create
16:53successful businesses
16:54there
16:54that work
16:55on energy access.
16:56Another thing
16:56that I would say
16:57and I think
16:57I would say it
16:58even more strongly
16:59just looking a bit
17:00at the audience
17:00and I see that
17:01we have a lot of,
17:01you know,
17:02a lot of young people
17:03with us in this room
17:03is there's really
17:04also a lack
17:05of entrepreneurs
17:06and of just people
17:07addressing this issue.
17:09It's not an issue
17:09that you can address
17:10in which you can
17:11make progress
17:11by like,
17:12you know,
17:13hoping that,
17:14you know,
17:14someone else
17:15is going to do it
17:15or putting money
17:16somewhere.
17:17There's a lot more
17:18capital available
17:19to solve this issue
17:20than there are
17:20companies
17:21and successful
17:22entrepreneurs
17:22actually addressing it.
17:24So really what we need
17:25is people
17:25who are willing
17:26to like,
17:26you know,
17:26bring in their expertise,
17:28you know,
17:28spend the time,
17:29the energy
17:29to actually address
17:30those issues actively.
17:32So it's,
17:32there's a need
17:33of sort of active involvement,
17:35you know,
17:35much more so
17:36than sort of,
17:37you know,
17:37policy or capital.
17:39I think this is what
17:39we see in sub-Saharan Africa.
17:40So you're talking about
17:41needing advocates,
17:43needing people
17:44who are convinced.
17:46Yeah,
17:46and entrepreneurs.
17:47I mean,
17:47people who are willing
17:47to come and do their work.
17:49You know,
17:49just put your phone down
17:51to get on a flight
17:52and then come,
17:53you know,
17:53work with us.
17:54Okay.
17:54John?
17:55I would sort of
17:55reframe the debate.
17:56I actually think
17:57that the acceleration
17:58towards renewable energy
18:00is speeding up.
18:01Okay.
18:02Not to say that,
18:03you know,
18:031.5 degrees centigrade
18:05since the Industrial Revolution
18:06is in the bag
18:07or anything like that.
18:08I'm not,
18:08I think those two are,
18:10but if I think about
18:11our golden age,
18:13almost Renaissance age
18:15of renewable generation technology,
18:17not only last year
18:19did we deploy
18:20more wind and solar
18:21than any other
18:22form of generation
18:22on the planet,
18:23but a lot of things
18:25such as energy storage,
18:26hydrogen,
18:27which is also another form
18:28of long duration
18:28energy storage,
18:30has a home.
18:31And that's exciting
18:33because,
18:34you know,
18:3410 years ago,
18:35you know,
18:36although Energy Vault
18:37is my sixth startup,
18:38you could argue,
18:39we went public,
18:41but it's still a startup.
18:42I'm also a VC partner
18:43at a fund called
18:44Coda Capital
18:44in San Francisco
18:45that has about
18:4670 investments.
18:47And quite frankly,
18:48renewables was a
18:49four-letter word
18:50in the Bay Area
18:51because so many people
18:52lost so much money
18:53investing in fuel cells
18:55and, you know,
18:56hydrogen,
18:57solar, etc.
18:59But right now,
19:00I think we're at
19:00an incredible time
19:02for a lot of discovery,
19:03number one,
19:04through innovation.
19:05Number two,
19:05there's more money
19:06regardless of the adjustment
19:08of equity value
19:09on the markets,
19:09both here
19:10and United States
19:11and elsewhere.
19:12There's still so much money
19:14that is so excited
19:15about supporting
19:16entrepreneurs
19:17and investments,
19:18sometimes very large,
19:19billions of dollars
19:20worth of investment
19:21if you're thinking
19:22about a BlackRock capital
19:23and how much money
19:24they want to put
19:24to work towards renewable.
19:26So,
19:27there's a lot of other,
19:28you know,
19:29evidence
19:29that basically tells me
19:31that this could not
19:32be a better time
19:33to build
19:34and to be part
19:36of this transition
19:37that we're on right now
19:38because it's happening
19:39faster every year.
19:40Who agrees with John?
19:42Is this the time?
19:43Definitely.
19:44And if you watch the news
19:45and you look at
19:46the macroeconomic situation,
19:48I think the only category
19:50or the industry
19:51in VC at the moment
19:53that still has tailwind
19:54of investments,
19:56this is Climate Tech.
19:57so this is a call
19:58for all the entrepreneurs
19:59here in Viva Tech.
20:00If you're thinking
20:01what to do next,
20:02if you're a serial entrepreneur
20:03and you're thinking
20:04what should be my next company,
20:05what should I work on,
20:07Climate Tech is your spot.
20:09Okay, great.
20:10Emily?
20:10Definitely.
20:11I think we've seen
20:12a very strong acceleration
20:14and momentum
20:15and in the industry,
20:17we've seen so many announcements,
20:19industries spending
20:20more and more money
20:21into energy transition projects.
20:24We've seen new alliances.
20:26You know,
20:26people have understood
20:27that we can't do it
20:28by ourselves,
20:29you know,
20:29like one company
20:30by itself,
20:32but really working
20:32with partners.
20:34And when I say partners,
20:35it's not only just
20:36industrial companies together
20:37like large companies,
20:38but also working with startups.
20:40I think startups
20:41have now access
20:42to more funding,
20:44know better how to work
20:45with industrial companies.
20:48Governments are here
20:49to support.
20:49So I really strongly see
20:51a strong momentum,
20:52even though I would agree
20:54that we can even do more
20:55and faster,
20:56but really things have changed
20:58during the COVID time,
20:59I feel.
21:00Okay,
21:00so we can do more
21:01and move faster.
21:03Let's talk about the money
21:05just a second.
21:06I mean,
21:06whose responsibility
21:07is it to bring the money in?
21:10Is it private sectors?
21:11Is it governments?
21:12Is it both?
21:12I mean,
21:12how does that work?
21:15Nobody wants to answer.
21:18A mix of it all,
21:20you know,
21:20for sure.
21:21I think,
21:22especially again,
21:23coming from the perspective
21:25of energy access,
21:26I mean,
21:26providing,
21:26you know,
21:27basic access to energy
21:28to your citizens
21:29is a prerogative
21:30of, you know,
21:31most governments.
21:32So governments
21:33have a massive role to play.
21:35I think private capital
21:36can accelerate,
21:37you know,
21:37that access to energy
21:39massively as well.
21:40Okay.
21:41Yeah,
21:41just to add to that,
21:42I think if you look
21:43across the value chain
21:44of how energy
21:46gets deployed,
21:47you have approximately
21:49four different stakeholders,
21:50right?
21:50You have the utilities,
21:53like EDF,
21:54you know,
21:55as an example.
21:56You have independent
21:57power producers,
21:58right?
21:59There's sometimes utilities,
22:01sometimes not.
22:02You have developers
22:03who are into
22:04more originating projects
22:05and making sure
22:06point of interconnect
22:08and land
22:09and other things are there.
22:10And then you have
22:11a lot of large
22:11industrial users,
22:12like data center operators,
22:13like Amazon Web Services.
22:15You have metals
22:16and mining companies
22:17like BHP and others.
22:18And then, of course,
22:19you know,
22:20if there was a fifth category,
22:21it would be the entrepreneurs
22:22that support all that
22:23from a technology standpoint.
22:24But none of the,
22:26let's say,
22:27approximately 25 gigawatt hours
22:29of energy storage
22:29that was deployed last year
22:31would have been deployed
22:32had it not been
22:33for financeability.
22:35Nothing gets built
22:36other than pilot projects.
22:38Yeah.
22:38Nothing gets built
22:39unless it makes
22:39mathematical sense,
22:40financial sense,
22:41and you can get
22:42debt equity financing
22:44around these projects.
22:45So I think that tells us,
22:47number one,
22:48market redesign,
22:49you know,
22:49like how National Grid
22:50rewrote ancillary service
22:51in the United Kingdom
22:52and are pushing
22:54the envelope
22:55in terms of what
22:56fast responding assets
22:57can do
22:57because of all the wind
22:58generation up in Scotland.
23:00All those things
23:01are happening.
23:02But what I would say
23:03is everyone
23:04has to be mindful
23:05whether we're
23:06early state
23:07series A,
23:07series B investor
23:08or someone
23:09looking to put
23:10a lot of public money
23:11into major projects
23:12that nothing ever
23:14gets built
23:14unless it makes sense.
23:16And that's why
23:16so much solar and wind
23:17is being deployed
23:18at the moment.
23:19Okay, Emily.
23:20Definitely,
23:20I would agree with that
23:21that we need to find
23:22profitable projects.
23:23In my mind,
23:24if I look at
23:24the government's
23:26responsibilities,
23:27definitely they have
23:28a big responsibility
23:29in giving incentives
23:32and subsidies
23:33at the beginning
23:34to kind of
23:35prime the pump.
23:36But after that,
23:37we need to find
23:37sustainable projects
23:39in the long run
23:40and their responsibilities
23:41would be to more
23:42like through regulations
23:44to keep this momentum.
23:45But we can't just rely
23:46on subsidies
23:48and incentives
23:48and with all the money
23:50available both
23:51in the industry,
23:53the energy companies
23:54and through private funding,
23:56I think we can
23:57really do it.
23:58Fantastic.
23:59Another million dollar
24:00question here
24:01for you guys.
24:02I mean,
24:02how can we ensure
24:03an equitable
24:04and sustainable
24:05energy transition
24:06that leaves
24:07no one behind?
24:09Sure.
24:10I can start
24:11on this one probably.
24:13It might be more
24:14than a million dollar
24:15question actually.
24:16I think probably
24:17the first thing
24:18is the framework
24:20really for,
24:22you know,
24:22energy access
24:23is not going
24:24to be exactly
24:25the same
24:25as the framework
24:26we all have in mind
24:27and I think
24:27you did a great job
24:28presenting it,
24:29you know,
24:29in more developed market.
24:31So, you know,
24:31the idea that you're
24:32going to have
24:33sort of a main grid
24:35operator and power
24:36producers
24:36and everyone's
24:37going to be connected
24:37to the grid
24:38is just not going
24:39to be the case
24:40in the next 20 to 30 years
24:42in most countries
24:43in sub-Saharan Africa,
24:44right?
24:44So we're going to need
24:45a different set
24:46of technologies,
24:47different set of model
24:48to actually achieve,
24:50you know,
24:50adjust a transition.
24:51One thing just
24:52to mention quickly,
24:53as you mentioned,
24:54we work mostly
24:55in the sort of
24:55off-grid,
24:56you know,
24:57area and what
24:57that means is that
24:58there's a number
24:59of countries
25:00that simply don't
25:01have the capital
25:01available today
25:02to extend the grid
25:04everywhere,
25:05you know,
25:05in the country
25:06and so you have
25:06to think about
25:07more decentralized
25:08energy production
25:09and energy access
25:10to ensure that
25:11we have a just
25:12transition.
25:13My only hope
25:13is that,
25:14you know,
25:14the people
25:15who have the capital
25:15to develop
25:16the technology
25:17of tomorrow
25:17also take
25:18those other,
25:19you know,
25:20contexts,
25:21you know,
25:21in mind
25:21when they do
25:22develop it
25:22because it
25:23will not
25:23be the same
25:23technology.
25:24It will be
25:24similar,
25:25not exactly
25:26the same.
25:27Yeah.
25:28I think that
25:29it's important
25:29that we are
25:31very careful
25:31with this
25:32energy transition
25:33that we don't
25:34replace one
25:35bad thing
25:35in something
25:36that in 50
25:37years' time
25:38we will figure
25:38out,
25:39what have we
25:40done?
25:40This is even
25:40worse.
25:41And it's,
25:42again,
25:43it's simple
25:44things.
25:44I mean,
25:44everybody thinks
25:45about electric
25:46vehicles and
25:47electric vehicles
25:48are good,
25:49but actually
25:50the battery
25:51and all
25:51the catalysts,
25:52the rare
25:53earth materials
25:54that are
25:55inside.
25:55Well,
25:56we need to
25:56figure out
25:57what we're
25:57doing.
25:58And therefore,
25:59when we're
25:59investing,
26:00for example,
26:01we not just
26:02look at the
26:02positivities,
26:03the additional
26:04positivities that
26:05the companies
26:06bring,
26:06but also we
26:07embed ESG
26:09principles to
26:10make sure that
26:11the companies
26:11do no harm
26:12while they
26:13deploy their
26:14technologies.
26:15Yeah,
26:15just to add
26:16to that,
26:17I was founder
26:18and CEO
26:19of Greensmith
26:20Energy,
26:21which is
26:21the fifth
26:22one,
26:22by the way,
26:23the start.
26:23We did
26:24about a third
26:24of the total
26:25energy storage
26:25capacity,
26:26megawatts,
26:26megawatt hours
26:27in the United
26:27States in
26:282016.
26:29And then in
26:302017,
26:30we were acquired
26:31by Vatila
26:31and we deployed
26:33just over 100
26:34systems in 12
26:35countries,
26:35which included
26:36North Africa,
26:37West Africa,
26:38Middle East.
26:39Jordan was a
26:39really interesting
26:40example where,
26:43I don't know
26:43if too many
26:44people know this,
26:45it has to import
26:46all its petrochemicals
26:48from its neighbors
26:48because it has no
26:49resources.
26:50but the one
26:51resource that it
26:52has that the
26:53grid operators in
26:54Senegal and
26:54Ivory Coast have
26:55is the sun.
26:57And the sun is
26:57approximately free.
26:58As my economics
27:00professor would tell
27:01me, there's no
27:01such thing as a
27:02free lunch,
27:03but the sun is
27:03approximately free.
27:05And on top,
27:06so I think this
27:07bodes well for
27:08places like India,
27:10Bangladesh,
27:11Vietnam,
27:12Philippines,
27:13other places that
27:13are deploying a lot
27:14of solar and other
27:15technologies.
27:17But the other
27:17aspect that I want
27:18to emphasize is I
27:19also see a lot of
27:21so-called, what I
27:22call, electron
27:23shaming.
27:24So just because you
27:25have to subsist on
27:26gas and coal, that
27:28somehow you're less
27:29deserving of all
27:30these technologies.
27:31And by the way, in
27:32Africa, they pay as
27:34much, if not higher
27:35rates of electricity
27:36per kilowatt hour than
27:37the rest of the world
27:38either.
27:38And they're using that
27:40electricity to clean
27:41drinking water, to
27:43light up schools, a lot
27:44of these basic things
27:46that in California
27:47one would take for
27:48granted.
27:48So what I would
27:49suggest is as we
27:50want to make this
27:51transition towards
27:52low GHG type
27:54technologies, let's
27:57not forget to
27:58optimize all this
27:59fossil-based
28:00generation that we
28:00have for a time
28:01because it's part of
28:03the optimization that
28:04you can do with
28:05software, small data,
28:07big data, all these
28:08technologies that we
28:09have a good handle
28:09on.
28:10And the final thing
28:12that I want to share
28:14with you is the
28:14witnessing of so-called
28:15leaf-frog technology
28:17events in places like
28:18India and others
28:19where it's kind of
28:20like we don't have
28:21wireline phones in
28:22our homes.
28:23We just go, I used
28:25to back in the day,
28:26that's how old I am.
28:27But a lot of these
28:28countries, they're
28:28skipping and they're
28:29going right to
28:31wireless phones.
28:32And that, I think,
28:33represents the
28:34opportunity to not
28:35only take advantage of
28:36modern technologies
28:37that are available to
28:38so-called developed
28:39countries, but also in
28:40a lot of developing
28:41countries as well.
28:42Emily?
28:42Maybe just to build
28:44also on what
28:44Yair was saying, that
28:45we need to think
28:46through what we're
28:48doing, not to
28:48regret after.
28:50I think we need to
28:51really assess properly
28:52the impact of the
28:54solutions we're
28:55building and we're
28:56deploying.
28:56And when I say
28:57impact, the full
28:58impact, not rushing
28:59into some specific
29:00technologies that
29:01overall don't make
29:02any sense.
29:03So we need to
29:05really have, and
29:06that's what we're
29:07doing in the
29:07industry, you know,
29:08look at life cycle
29:09assessment.
29:10To look at the
29:10impact of a solution
29:12from well to
29:15real, but also
29:16during the
29:17lifetime.
29:18So the use of
29:19raw material in the
29:20first place when you
29:20manufacture the
29:21solution and you
29:22talked about the
29:24rare earth and
29:25rare materials, that's
29:26very important.
29:27Maybe we're going to
29:27increase our
29:28dependency on some
29:29not very geopolitically
29:32stable countries by
29:34doing that.
29:34We need to also
29:35think about the end
29:36of life of those
29:37products.
29:37how are we going
29:38to recycle those
29:39products?
29:40So we really need to
29:41think about that and
29:41not rushing into some
29:42specific solutions and
29:44then maybe regret it
29:45afterwards.
29:46Okay, yeah, so we
29:46need to think about the
29:47whole journey and where
29:48you put your money is
29:49important when you think
29:51about the whole journey,
29:51of course.
29:53I've got some questions
29:54that are coming through.
29:55Like I said, guys, if
29:56you're watching us and
29:57you want to send a
29:57question through, you go
29:58on to the chat, send it
29:59through and I'll get it
30:00here.
30:00You guys in the
30:01audience, same thing.
30:02If you have a question,
30:03go for it.
30:04I mean, we're enjoying
30:05this chat here and I've
30:06got, I mean, before
30:07talking about the
30:08future, let's deal with
30:11these questions.
30:11So beyond geopolitics,
30:14what are the main
30:14hurdles that you're
30:16facing to implement the
30:18energy transition?
30:19John?
30:20Yeah, I'll just kick
30:21it off.
30:22I would say that if you
30:23look at a lot of rules
30:24and regulations on how
30:25you monetize these grid
30:26assets, they were written
30:27for a lot of old age
30:29assets, you know, such as
30:31base load generator,
30:32nuclear, gas, et cetera.
30:34And there's, you know,
30:35continued modification on
30:36the part of ISO, what I
30:38would call independent
30:40system operator type, as
30:42well as national grid
30:43operators as well.
30:44But I think to kind of, you
30:47know, do a clean break
30:48from what is a set of
30:50technologies that are
30:51inherently different than
30:52what you get out of a,
30:53out of a, you know,
30:54lithium ion battery that
30:56can respond as quickly as
30:58a bidirectional inverter
30:59can respond, which is
31:00measured in about 20, 30
31:01milliseconds.
31:02seconds, that's different
31:03than a combined cycle
31:04gas peaker.
31:05So that's just one thing
31:06I would lob in there is
31:08to, especially in, in
31:11places like, you know,
31:12Africa and Asia, Southeast
31:13Asia, there's an
31:14opportunity to not just
31:16take a look at what's
31:17been done incrementally,
31:18both in terms of, you
31:20know, what a hydro
31:21plant delivered and what
31:22a gas plant needs and
31:23what incentivizes that
31:25investment to be made in
31:26the first place, but also
31:28recognizing that with new
31:29technology, including
31:31software and computing
31:32that you have the, the
31:33ability to do a lot of
31:35different things on the
31:36grid, which, again, is
31:38about the only technology
31:39that we've ever created
31:41where we have to use
31:42pretty much everything
31:43right as it's produced
31:45at the speed of light.
31:47You know, I don't know.
31:47I mean, that's why you
31:48need energy storage
31:49because we're going from
31:50so-called base load
31:52generation that's on 24
31:53seven to intermittent
31:55generation, which exists
31:56predominantly when the sun
31:57is shining, when the wind
31:58is blowing.
31:59So you need inventory
32:00control, which we have in
32:01food supply, as an
32:02example, or petrochemicals.
32:05So anyway, these rules
32:07that incentivize investment,
32:08I think, need to be
32:09further monetized.
32:11Okay.
32:12I think that the challenge
32:13in the transition is the
32:15fact that the solutions
32:16that we have today, and
32:18some of them we can deploy
32:19already today, they're more
32:20expensive.
32:21Okay.
32:22So there is what we call
32:23the green premium between
32:24what you would pay for a
32:26fossil-based solution and
32:27and what you would pay for
32:28a green-based solution.
32:30The challenge is, and
32:32that's the impediment for
32:33the transition, is that we
32:36consumers not always want
32:38to pay the premium, and the
32:40corporations that produce
32:41the goods, they say, well,
32:45if I transition now to the
32:46green premium product, I
32:48will hit my profitability,
32:52right?
32:52and my shareholders are not
32:53going to be happy.
32:55So these are all decisions
32:56that we need gradually.
32:58You cannot do that
32:59overnight.
33:00We need to do that
33:01gradually and take those
33:02decisions, and we all need
33:04to work on coming to parity
33:06with those green-based
33:09solutions that are at the
33:10same level as the regular
33:12solutions.
33:13Emily?
33:15Yeah.
33:15I think one of the hurdles
33:17is really the ramping down
33:18of, if we think about
33:20transitioning from fossil fuels
33:21to clean energies, really the
33:23ramping down of the
33:24traditional energies, and
33:26together with the ramping up
33:27of new energies, and really
33:29how it's going to really
33:30happen in the next decade.
33:31But what I really want to
33:32talk about is something we
33:33haven't talked much about, is
33:34the talents.
33:36I wouldn't say it's a
33:36hurdle, but I think it's one
33:38of the challenges, if we
33:39really want to succeed, is the
33:41people we have, right?
33:42You mentioned that, Alexandre,
33:43but I think we need new
33:46competencies to do that.
33:48We have great talents, and a
33:51lot of people are highly
33:53motivated.
33:53I see that in the industry,
33:55because now people are
33:56looking for a sense of
33:58purpose in their work.
33:59They just don't work for
34:00just a living.
34:01They really want to
34:02contribute to have a
34:03meaningful impact, and
34:05that's what we can offer
34:06when we work in the energy
34:08transition, but apart from
34:10that, we need the
34:11competency.
34:11So there are a lot of new
34:12skills that need to be
34:13built if we really want to
34:15succeed.
34:15And how do we do that?
34:18Alexandre, I mean, I know
34:20it's like a vast question,
34:22but what can you guys do to
34:26move forward on that
34:27question?
34:28I hope that already by, you
34:30know, having those sort of
34:31conversations and explaining
34:32the actual issues that we're
34:34facing, you know, that can
34:35sort of both inspire, you
34:38know, students, you know,
34:39schools also to develop like
34:40the curriculum there or, you
34:42know, existing professionals
34:43potentially to transition as
34:45well.
34:45Yeah, I think that's probably
34:47the way I would just also
34:48echo what's been said, you
34:50know, here in terms of sort
34:51of financial incentives and
34:53technology as well.
34:54We really see, you know, we've
34:56tried to bring like a lot of
34:58the technologies that were
34:59developed for a world where
35:00you have just the grid, you
35:02know, all the time and for
35:02transition into a context
35:04that's very different.
35:05and I think more, you know,
35:06innovation is also definitely
35:08necessary.
35:09Okay.
35:10Next question here from the
35:12audience or somebody who's
35:13watching us.
35:14I don't have your name.
35:14If you want to send your name
35:15through when you send a
35:16question, go for it.
35:18How much should an
35:20organization invest in energy
35:22transition projects?
35:25Difficult to, depends, I guess,
35:28on a lot of different aspects,
35:30but John.
35:30Well, I can start by saying,
35:32you know, with BHP, you know,
35:36Saudi Aramco and others who
35:37are not only customers, but
35:39also investors, they're taking
35:42this transition extremely
35:44seriously.
35:44And let me explain what that
35:46means to them.
35:47So they're looking to not only
35:50invest in four technologies
35:52that are not perhaps quite at
35:55parity, but with scale you can
35:57like hydrogen, green hydrogen.
35:59Most of the hydrogen that the
36:00world produces and utilizes is
36:02so-called gray hydrogen.
36:05And I think less than 100
36:06megawatts is green hydrogen.
36:08It's not a lot.
36:09But if you take a look at the
36:11investment that these
36:12organizations are making to not
36:14only have renewable approaches
36:16to fueling a lot of their
36:18operations, but also in terms of
36:21offering a lot of these products
36:23out to market to their, you
36:24know, customers, to their
36:25partners, I think
36:28I can't think of a particular
36:30area of the business, of those
36:32businesses.
36:32Certainly, you know, my business
36:34as Energy Vault, we're all about
36:35supporting that transition.
36:36So you could argue 100% of CapEx
36:39and OpEx is devoted to that.
36:41But even these big companies,
36:42including Air Liquide and others,
36:44are investing heavily in this
36:46transition.
36:46And it's not just to make revenue
36:49or profits, you know, based on
36:51where inflation is at the moment
36:53and all these global supply chain
36:56issues that I would argue 30 years
36:59ago, the horse was kind of out of
37:00the barn on that one.
37:02But it's also a very serious
37:06opportunity to, like Korea Zinc,
37:08to produce green zinc.
37:10I mean, how wonderful would that be
37:12to have 100% renewables, including
37:14across the entire value chain of
37:16looking at where the particular
37:19battery came, did it use NMC?
37:22Did the cobalt come from DRC?
37:25I mean, all these underlying,
37:27is recycling something that is
37:29just kind of done at about 50%
37:31or can you recycle all the
37:33material?
37:33So many of these companies that I
37:36allude to are, I mean, they have
37:38hundreds of thousands of employees
37:40and they're highly motivated to not
37:42only participate in this transition,
37:44but they're incredibly smart,
37:46incredibly dedicated, and have
37:49a lot of tools at their disposal to
37:50understand how to usher in this
37:53particular transition.
37:54Maybe a different angle to the
37:56question is, what should I do as an
37:58individual to accelerate the
38:01transition?
38:02Sure.
38:02What can we do to get to net zero?
38:05And most people answer that to
38:07themselves as, okay, I will become
38:09vegan, I will fly less, I will buy
38:12recycled paper, but actually these
38:15things are tiny in your potential
38:18contribution.
38:19What can you really, really do that
38:21would make a big difference is think
38:23about your workplace, in which
38:25organization you are, what is my
38:27company doing, where I'm putting my
38:29time.
38:30That's a big, big acceleration to the
38:33transition.
38:34Maybe just to complement also what
38:36John was saying, as you mentioned
38:38earlier, that many industrial companies,
38:40like I said, are investing very, very
38:42heavily into energy transition.
38:44Like, again, now we are investing half of
38:46our industrial investment into energy
38:48transition projects.
38:49That is absolutely huge.
38:51And we need to find the right projects,
38:53profitable projects, of course.
38:54But that is really going to, I think,
38:57move the needle.
38:58Of course.
38:59Maybe just a sort of cynical, but also
39:01positive addition to this is that we
39:04are now working with a lot of companies
39:06that really could not care less, sadly,
39:08about energy transition, but that do
39:10invest in solar, right?
39:12Yeah, because it's good.
39:13Because it just makes sense.
39:14Yeah, it makes sense.
39:14And so we're solarizing, you know,
39:16hotels, factories, mines, you know, and
39:19they really don't care.
39:20Like, they don't have ESG, you know,
39:21reports or anything, but it just makes
39:22sense for them.
39:23And so I think that's the positive thing.
39:24That's the shift that we're seeing.
39:26And so even in those, you know, areas,
39:29there's a shift that's happening as well.
39:31Yeah, so if it makes you look good,
39:32do it anyway.
39:33Yeah.
39:35So last question here, because we've
39:37got two minutes and 38 seconds left
39:38together, guys, and I have to be quite
39:40strict on the timing.
39:42We're going to look to the future just
39:43for a second.
39:44Coming back to the name of the
39:46sequence, the name of this sequence is
39:48is the transition possible, impossible
39:51in brackets?
39:53Are we going to make it happen?
39:55Well, we will.
39:57And not only we will make it happen,
39:59it will take time.
40:00It will take 50 years or so.
40:02But, you know, again, coming back to
40:04VivaTech and we're all here about the
40:06digital revolution, but the energy
40:08transition is going to be 10 times,
40:11100 times bigger than the digital
40:14revolution.
40:14And the companies that are coming out
40:16of that will be the new Google,
40:18Facebook, Amazon.
40:20This is what this revolution is going
40:21to bring us.
40:23maybe, well, as a mother of three, I
40:27can't imagine it's not possible.
40:28We have to do it.
40:29It's really our responsibility.
40:31And I really think we can.
40:33Why?
40:33Because we have the technologies, or most
40:35of them.
40:36We have the money and we have the
40:38people and the people want to do that.
40:40So it's just a matter of time, like you
40:43said, and willingness to do it.
40:46Alexandre?
40:47No, absolutely.
40:47I think, you know, as an entrepreneur,
40:50I often say that I'd rather be sort of
40:51optimistic and wrong than pessimistic
40:54and right.
40:54So I'm obviously going to answer yes
40:56to that question.
40:56Can we do it?
40:58I think what's really important, and
40:59everyone's echoed this message, is to
41:01like go from a sort of passive look at
41:03this question to an active one.
41:05And to echo what Yav was saying, you
41:07know, for people to think of themselves
41:09as producers more than as consumers,
41:11right?
41:11It's much more in what you produce and
41:13what you generate and where you work
41:14that you can make a difference.
41:15and yeah, I hope we can achieve it
41:17for sure.
41:18You've got the last word, John?
41:19Yeah, with 54 seconds.
41:22Other than saying a yes, which I think
41:25you're hearing from everybody, I'll
41:27leave you with two sayings.
41:30One is serenity of prayer, right?
41:33I'm not a deeply religious individual
41:35by any stretch, but serenity of prayer
41:37goes, may I have the serenity to accept
41:39the things that I cannot change, the
41:40courage to change the things that I
41:42can, and the wisdom to know the
41:43difference.
41:44So let's not try to, you know, solve
41:47everything.
41:47Let's try to solve the things that we
41:49can solve, right?
41:50That's what that means.
41:50And then the second thing is, in VC
41:53land, perfect is the enemy of good.
41:56So just because something is good,
41:58just because something is not 100%
42:00does not mean we should not be
42:02working at it.
42:04Well, that was a fantastic discussion.
42:06We'd love to chat more, wouldn't we?
42:08We're having a great time here.
42:10Thanks very much for being with us today,
42:12of course, to all of you.
42:14We need more people like you pushing
42:16forward, and that's what I heard today.
42:18We're looking for the talents, and if you
42:20heard and you want to join in, you can
42:21catch up with these guys, obviously, on
42:23LinkedIn.
42:24We can find you very easily on the internet,
42:26can't we?
42:27It's time to take a short break.
42:28We'll be back in a couple of minutes for
42:30our next session on nuclear fusion.
42:32Thanks for applauding our
42:33friends here today.
42:35If you want to continue watching us,
42:37please do so by clicking on the stage
42:39two banner on the digital platform.
42:40I'll see you in five minutes.
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