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Scaling Up Go Global or Go Home
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00:00My name is Guillaume, I'm a former journalist for Les Echos, and now I'm an investor for the Fond 2050.
00:08And I'm super thrilled to have this wonderful panel, we've been doing VivaTech for quite a long time now,
00:20and honestly at the very beginning it was tough to gather such a nice panel with a lot of great
00:25companies,
00:26and now it's an established event and I'm glad to see more and more people coming back.
00:31So we're going to tackle today a really, really tough subject, international go big or go home,
00:38and obviously we have four different people that are really doing big, going big, for sure, you know their brand,
00:46I'm 100% sure.
00:48But just to make sure that you really see where they're at, I'm going to ask them one first question
00:54about their first country, where you started your internalization,
00:59and maybe you can also give a quick note on where your company stands.
01:04Maybe we can start with Fred, Frédéric Mazela from BlaBlaCar.
01:07Yeah, thank you.
01:09So where we stand today, BlaBlaCar is a community of 100 million people worldwide.
01:14We are in 22 countries, over three continents, from Brazil to India, and most of European countries.
01:22And we started in France, we expanded first, our first internationalization was in Spain.
01:28The reason being that we already had rights, so what we do is carpooling, for those of you who have
01:34never used BlaBlaCar.
01:36So we do carpooling, we allow people, drivers with empty seats, to offer them to passengers going the same way
01:42and sharing the cost.
01:43So it's pure carpool.
01:44And so we had rights going from France to Spain, which is the reason why we already had some percentage
01:50of our traffic,
01:51which was already going to Spain.
01:52So we expanded naturally to Spain first, and then in other countries, in Italy, in Poland, in the UK.
01:58And then we grew internationally by jumping sometimes.
02:01When you go to Brazil and you don't have rights there, then you create things from the ground.
02:08Okay.
02:09We'll keep on going with Tao.
02:11Tao, you're from Get Your Guide, a COO and co-founder.
02:14So let us know where you stand right now, and where was the first country outside or where you started
02:20that you had attacked?
02:21Yeah, so Get Your Guide, we are the global leader for the travel experiences market, which is about a $200
02:28billion market.
02:29So anything from guided walking tours of the Montmartre district to tickets to Centre Pompidou and many others.
02:36Today, we are active with over 60,000 experiences in about 150 countries worldwide.
02:42So anywhere you want to travel, we probably have some kind of travel experience.
02:46It's offered in 22 languages, 40 currencies, and we have transacted about 60 million experiences since the founding of the
02:55company.
02:56And the first point was we started the company in Switzerland.
02:59So the first experience was probably some river rafting and chocolate tours in Zurich.
03:04And the natural expansion for us was then to go to Germany, and from there to the hotspots like Paris,
03:11of course, Rome, Italy, London, and so on and so forth.
03:14And obviously, there was not much expansion in the last two years because of this virus thing.
03:22But now our big focus is the United States, where we are a strong number two and going for number
03:27one in probably 12 to 18 months.
03:30You'll tell us much about it afterwards.
03:33Alexandre from Conto.
03:34Hi, everyone.
03:35So I'm Alex, co-founder and CEO of Conto.
03:37I hope a lot of you are already using and loving Conto.
03:43But for those who don't, don't yet.
03:45So just very shortly, Conto is an all-in-one business account that makes it easy to run your business
03:54banking on a daily basis.
03:56And we're active today in four markets, France, Italy, Spain, and Germany.
04:00So we started in France, and now serving these three other markets, serving about 250,000 small businesses and freelancers
04:08in Europe.
04:09And the reason we started, you know, of course, we started with France because that's where the company was created.
04:17And the reason we created, actually, that company is that my co-founder, Steve, and myself started a first company
04:23even before.
04:24And we felt it was a nightmare to deal with our traditional bank for our company.
04:29And when that first company got acquired, we said, okay, we need to do something and to help our other
04:33fellow entrepreneurs to make their business banking life easier.
04:37So that's how it all started.
04:38And after a couple of quarters, it went quite fast.
04:42We thought of expanding outside of France, and we very, let's say, rationally chose Italy, Spain, and Germany as they
04:53are the three largest markets in the Eurozone and in the European Union.
04:59That was, of course, after Brexit.
05:01And so that's why we're active now in these four markets.
05:04Great.
05:05Next to you, Thomas.
05:06Thomas from Vinted, CEO now.
05:10Yes, CEO of Vinted.
05:11And we are Vinted.
05:13It's a second-hand clothing marketplace.
05:16So if you don't wear your clothes anymore, you can sell it on our app.
05:20The first market that actually really worked for us was France.
05:25And we had a whole string of failures, and then France really worked out well.
05:30And then we tried a lot of other markets.
05:32And then the second market that really worked well was a market that really looked like France, was Belgium.
05:38So we've learned a humble lesson along the way in expansion on how, you know, I actually need to build
05:44gradually your knowledge to expand.
05:46So we're thinking about, we're talking about going big, which means a lot of investment.
05:53So the question is, when you raise a lot of money, usually you use it for that purpose.
06:00But how do you use that money?
06:04For example, when you started your first country outside France or wherever or Switzerland, how did you use that money?
06:10So maybe you want to keep going, Thomas?
06:13Yeah, so practically, I think when you use that money, you need to think backwards from what the goal is
06:20of that money that you raised.
06:21So you have a certain purpose as a company, and that purpose is connected to creating as well value for
06:27shareholders financially.
06:29So there needs to be a return of that investment.
06:32So if I, in an initial phase, in a market, invest X million euros, then I hope to get to
06:38an end point where a market becomes profitable, that market generates then, in the long term, X amount of profit.
06:45And that amount of profit in the end needs to be looking very good at the initial investments.
06:51And then you need to think backwards, like, okay, if I then have different milestones to get to that point
06:57of profitability, what are those milestones?
06:59And thus, what am I accepting myself to spend on, for example, marketing, additional product investments, to get, let's say,
07:06the first couple of phases to get to where you want to be?
07:09And I think in the beginning, you need to give yourself enough room to experiment and practically have low ROI
07:17to get to a point, to get to higher ROI, and then get to that end point.
07:21So I think you always need to make sure that you think backwards towards the end game of a market,
07:27where you have a viable company.
07:31And Alex, for you two, how did you use the money that you raised?
07:35You raised a lot of money, by the way.
07:37Yeah, indeed.
07:38While taking back what we announced a couple of months ago when we raised our Series D, which was close
07:44to 500 million euros, we very, let's say, simply said, okay, we're going to be allocating.
07:51We have about 100 million of each, so in each of our four markets, and that 100 million, of course,
07:57that's a round number, but what's behind is more important.
08:00What's behind is basically three things.
08:01The first thing is, you know, making the product and service even better, because that's what, you know, our clients
08:08come for, and what they stay for.
08:10And so we keep on increasing, you know, like, the importance of what the clients get with the products, the
08:19benefits they get, which can be simplified, and how much time they save with Conto.
08:24They declared a couple of months ago that they save, on average, two hours per week.
08:27So we hope maybe in a couple of months we'll do another survey, and they will be saving, you know,
08:31five hours per week with Conto.
08:33So, again, product and service is really important.
08:35The second part is, of course, marketing, as Thomas was saying.
08:38So I'm doing marketing in four markets that have, you know, four different languages, four different, of course, it requires
08:44more financial power.
08:46And last but not least is the team.
08:49Everything we do is thanks to the team.
08:51So we keep on, you know, growing the team with some technical expertise, but also some local knowledge, local presence.
08:58We have four offices, so one in Paris, and also in Milan, Barcelona, and Berlin, and having this real contact
09:05with the entrepreneurial communities in these markets, partners, and, of course, also our clients is super important.
09:12And so we've been investing a lot in the team, created a customer support hub in Barcelona, and hiring a
09:21lot across all different markets.
09:22It's also quite a few people in, you know, 100% in remote, but the team part is, of course,
09:27very, very important.
09:28So just to give you an idea, we started five years ago, the two of us, with Steve, we have
09:32600 people today, and we keep on hiring quite a lot.
09:36And I believe this is what's needed to, you know, achieve our ambition to serve one million clients in three
09:43years from now.
09:43And you're spreading those new, those future hires in all of the countries, all the markets that you are in?
09:49Yes, well, a good part is still in France, but now we have four campuses, as we call them.
09:54And so most of our new joiners can join, you know, in any of these different markets, any of these
10:02different offices.
10:04And we have also, like, internal mobility, so quite a few people that have relocated from Paris, which was our
10:09initial office, to Barcelona, Milan, and Berlin.
10:13And we hope we'll do, you know, much more of that in the future.
10:16Okay.
10:17Tao, same question, but how did you spend the money to really go international?
10:22I'm pretty sure that your needs were a little different than those two guys.
10:26Yeah, so of the about $880 million that we've raised, about half of that went to technology investments, building the
10:33product, building the technology.
10:34And about half probably went to market expansion.
10:36And when we go into a new market, the number one question we ask ourselves is, how can we create
10:42value like absolutely no one else in the market today?
10:45So, for example, when we went into the United States a couple years ago, our main insight was most of
10:52American tourism is domestic, so about 95%.
10:54So, we wanted to make sure that we offered the absolute best domestic travel product for Americans.
11:00And that includes, for example, not only focusing on New York City, where us Europeans go, but also, for example,
11:06focusing on Nashville, Tennessee, where you have the Country Music Hall of Fame or Bourbon Tours and Kentucky Trails.
11:12And so, we have local offices in the U.S. to really go after these markets and to then educate
11:19our local partners of how they can benefit from our international customers, our international currencies, but also from a lot
11:26of the domestic travelers that are just starting to be digitized and move online.
11:31And Fred, also, how did you spend the first euros?
11:35Yeah, quickly, because I think many things have been said.
11:37We see that it's a matter of what you choose as a strategy as well.
11:43We see the different ways to spend the money you raise.
11:47So, what we've done, it depended on the way we expended, but sometimes you make an acquisition, and so that
11:54way you grow faster in that country, but you also spend some money.
11:59Even though you can do deals with shared deals, so you don't spend all the money, all the cash,
12:04but you also want sometimes to build a team from scratch on the ground, and this costs money just a
12:09team, plus then the marketing expenses that will be helping you grow faster,
12:15especially when you build a marketplace and you need to get some liquidity, which is the case of BlaBlaCar.
12:20It's super hard to create liquidity.
12:22So, at the beginning, you need to push very, very hard to make your brand known so that people get
12:28into the system,
12:29and you get enough drivers, enough passengers together, and then they share the cars.
12:33You can also spend by, of course, scaling the entire structure to respond to a growing number of people using
12:42the platform.
12:43It is not typically linked to one specific country.
12:46It's just linked to the fact that you're scaling, and you need to reinforce your processes, reinforce your tech,
12:53reinforce or make your product even easier to use and more international,
12:57and sometimes both standardized and also develop some specific features for specific geographies,
13:03and this also costs money.
13:05So, then it's a pure allocation, and you choose depending on what you think is the highest priority.
13:12And have you failed in some of those countries?
13:15I'm pretty sure at least maybe not failed, but you made some mistakes.
13:19Could you share a couple of those?
13:20Yeah, well, the mistake is first to make too many adjustments.
13:26As an international and global company, you need to create some sort of global product
13:31which can work and scale just about everywhere.
13:35And so, the more specificities you create per country, the more difficult it will be for you to scale
13:42because you have to maintain all those specificities, and it's a hard pain for the tech team.
13:48So, it's better to try to deploy the standardized product and really see if it doesn't work
13:56than to try to guess beforehand that you need to adapt this or this and this and this,
14:02which will create more complexity.
14:03And then, you also, country after country, you create a playbook.
14:08In each country, when you grow, people will just log what they've done,
14:14what they've done which worked, what didn't work, how they've done this or this or this,
14:19and then you create a playbook which gets filled country after country,
14:25which means when you open your 10th country, people get some sort of recipe of how to scale,
14:32what to do, what not to do, what has worked, what should not be tried,
14:36what should be tried, what can't be tried.
14:38And so, it really helps the entire team to scale with this playbook.
14:42Interesting.
14:43And Tao, we were talking about globalization is something big,
14:48but of course, if you go to the US, it's something even more different
14:51than doing something within Europe, I guess.
14:53Could you share that experience with us?
14:55How did you approach the US market?
14:59So, I think maybe, also following what Fred said on mistakes,
15:03and I think it fits quite well to your question,
15:06one mistake we actually did, and I think that a lot of companies do when they expand,
15:10is only look at the total addressable market and the market opportunity.
15:14So, for example, I'm from China originally,
15:17and China is always this big market that you want to go after,
15:20especially 10 years ago.
15:21And our mistake was to, we wanted to go into this market,
15:25but we didn't actually offer unique value to those customers.
15:28And so, when we went into the United States,
15:31we realized there is a lot of Americans who do these, you know,
15:34two, three-week Europe trips, so we already have them in our ecosystem.
15:38They already booked a Sand River cruise, or maybe went up the Eiffel Tower,
15:41and when they now come home, we can really also offer them domestic experiences
15:46when they go to, I don't know, Atlanta or anywhere else.
15:48And so, I think for us, the approach was really to have a couple of key successes,
15:53similar to a playbook, is you've got to have a local team,
15:56and you need to also trust your local team,
15:59because there's a lot of things that us Europeans don't quite get in the American system,
16:04starting with how you make payroll in order to attract the best talent.
16:08And so, I would say local team, a lot of trust,
16:11but also you have to spend a lot of time there.
16:13So, you know, I make sure I'm there probably three or four times a year,
16:16and similarly in some of our key markets as well.
16:18I think it's kind of funny, because the things you're saying are absolutely true.
16:23You are successful companies, but on those topics,
16:25we at Vinted took exactly the opposite route.
16:28So, for example, we don't have local offices, we don't have local teams,
16:32and I think it took me, I don't know, two years after,
16:37or three years after launch in France to first come and visit France.
16:40The first time I came to France, I was shaking Macron's hand on the stage.
16:43And so, what you mentioned, for example, in building, let's say, global solutions,
16:50is also we take that very much completely into the team.
16:54So, if we're really building a global product, global service,
16:57we actually need to build specialties within the team that are globally,
17:00so that the people who are building payment solutions,
17:02or shipping solutions, or search solutions are doing that on a global level,
17:06and thereby, we're actually taking an opposite position,
17:08not saying that any kind of direction is wrong.
17:12But that's what we do, is we keep everything centralized,
17:14and thereby, having the advantage is that within each team,
17:18everybody has a global view on things.
17:20So, when you're fighting scam, you're in a global scam fighting team,
17:23and you see everything in the world.
17:24When you're working on user experience,
17:26and you work on the checkout forms, for example,
17:28you have the global view on things.
17:31And that's something that we do, which is a different approach,
17:34but, yeah, what is kind of different?
17:37I think it's quite interesting, because at Conto,
17:40we do kind of a mix of what you all described,
17:43meaning we're, I mean, local, and with local offices,
17:49and one mistake I think we did is that we waited too long
17:52to have local offices, so we had, you know,
17:54our German, Italian, and Spanish teams here in Paris,
17:57and it makes a huge difference to have an actual office there
18:01to meet partners, clients, to be closer to the ecosystem.
18:04Also, much easier to hire great Italian talent in Milan than in Paris.
18:10I mean, there are lots of Italians in Paris,
18:11but the talent pools in Bulgaria are, of course, in Milan.
18:15So, I think that's one mistake we did,
18:16is like waiting too long to open these offices.
18:18We're not super helped by COVID,
18:20because we kept on waiting that COVID would disappear
18:22before we opened an office,
18:24and it took two years to hopefully disappear.
18:27So, I think that's one point.
18:29And then we, of course, try to have a product
18:33that's as much global and unique as possible,
18:37but in our industry, so in the, you know,
18:40in fintech, in the banking industry,
18:42you have, of course, regulation,
18:44but you also have some local ways that clients,
18:47you know, use and think about money,
18:50and just to give a very concrete example,
18:53in France, probably some of you in the room are French,
18:56or have been living in France for some time,
18:58we're crazy about checks.
19:00So, everyone wants, a lot of people still are using checks.
19:02So, if you go to the doctor,
19:04unfortunately, it changed a bit with COVID,
19:06but you still needed to have, you know,
19:08your checkbook to pay your doctor.
19:10Some people that, you know, when you tell them that,
19:12they're like, are you crazy in France?
19:14Like, what are you, you know,
19:14and then it's all the stereotypes about France
19:16and maybe some old stuff,
19:17but, and so this is just one example.
19:20And so, we had to build this, you know,
19:22check caching in feature for our French clients,
19:25for our German clients,
19:27it's going to be something different,
19:28meaning we need to be more careful
19:30about how the way they use cash,
19:32because there is a more cash intensive,
19:34you know, habits and culture and so on.
19:37So, we try to be as sensual and global as possible,
19:42but to really win
19:43and to bring a great service to our clients,
19:46the last, whatever, 20, 30% of the product
19:49has to be localized.
19:51And, and, and basically, we, we knew that,
19:54but it was kind of, we thought about it,
19:56but we're not sure we should do it.
19:58And now it's really confirmed
19:59that it's really a requirement
20:00to be successful in our industry.
20:02And especially if you want to target business clients
20:05and make sure their, you know, satisfaction
20:07is super high and so on.
20:08If you're just going for like some free service
20:11that is used from time to time,
20:12it's probably different.
20:13But with our products,
20:15it was really, it was really a very needed.
20:17But now that you're aware of that,
20:19how do you anticipate it once?
20:21I mean, you probably are preparing
20:22a new opening in new countries.
20:24So how do you anticipate that?
20:26And how do you integrate that
20:28in preparing those launch?
20:30Well, right now we're really focused
20:31on these four markets.
20:33So I was mentioning 250,000 clients
20:35and these four markets
20:37have been about 15 million,
20:39so one, five million clients.
20:40So we're still, you know,
20:41pretty small given the market.
20:43So we're focusing on these four markets now,
20:45but we'll most probably add new markets
20:48in the coming years.
20:49And I think one point is that we'll,
20:51you know, very early on think of having,
20:54you know, of course a great team,
20:55starting with a great country manager,
20:56but also very, you know,
20:58very quickly a local office
20:59or at least going very often
21:01to this market.
21:03But maybe more importantly than that,
21:04really having the last mile,
21:07let's say, of the localization
21:08of the product and the service,
21:10not only the language,
21:11which is obvious,
21:13but also, again, the way, you know,
21:16the partners, the integrations,
21:17the way we present the service,
21:18the way we explain the service.
21:20There are lots of nuances
21:21that are really local
21:23and you always expect that
21:26as a European
21:26because, you know,
21:27Europe is not one country,
21:29one market,
21:29but, you know,
21:30a group of different,
21:32slightly different cultures and markets.
21:33But when you live it on a daily basis,
21:35it's very true
21:36and especially, again,
21:37in those regulated industries,
21:39which FinTech is.
21:41I'm so also very interesting
21:43and intriguing
21:44how you pick a country.
21:46I mean, it can be obvious
21:47for some of you
21:48because it could be the United States
21:49because it's the biggest one.
21:50It could be Belgium
21:51for a French company
21:52because this is the closest one.
21:54But all of you guys
21:55have picked different approach.
21:57So maybe we can start with Fred
21:59because BlaBlaCar was present
22:02in a very different continent
22:05very early on.
22:06so I'm really curious about
22:07how do you pick a country?
22:09Well, you look at your competition.
22:13If you do have,
22:15some are not.
22:16First of all,
22:17if a competitor
22:18has been able to scale
22:19in that country,
22:20it means there's something.
22:22It may be working.
22:24You look at a lot of metrics
22:25which are linked to your business.
22:28So first,
22:29you will look at
22:29how the transport structure
22:31is in the country.
22:33Like, for example,
22:33in Brazil,
22:34there is no train.
22:36So there are airplanes
22:37and buses,
22:38but no train.
22:39And you say,
22:40okay, something is missing.
22:42If we arrive
22:43with a solution
22:44for transport,
22:45we will bring something more.
22:47Then you look at,
22:48for example,
22:48how much people are connected.
22:50So now it's a lot more obvious.
22:51A lot of people
22:52are connected
22:53with 4G or 5G
22:55everywhere.
22:56But it was not the case
22:56a few years ago.
22:57But you will look at
22:58will people be using
23:00their mobile phones
23:01to move around
23:01or to book
23:02any kind of ride
23:03than you can look
23:04for us
23:05at the price of gas
23:06which is actually
23:07boosting the traffic
23:08right now
23:08on blah, blah, car
23:09because with the price
23:11of gas
23:12at 2 euro a liter,
23:13we see a surge
23:14in the demand
23:16for the passengers,
23:17of course,
23:17and the drivers as well
23:19to share the cost
23:20and make sure
23:21they will save
23:22on this.
23:23So the price of gas
23:23is also an element
23:24for us
23:25for growing
23:26in that country
23:26or not.
23:27So you look
23:27at a series
23:28of parameters,
23:29then you get
23:29a big file
23:31which analyzes
23:32how the country
23:33behaves possibly
23:35with your product
23:37in it
23:37and then you jump
23:40and you hope
23:41it will work.
23:42Then you put
23:44your fingers crossed
23:45and you go.
23:50It's very similar
23:51to what he's saying.
23:52So we look
23:53at metrics
23:54that are important
23:54to us.
23:55So what's
23:55the shipping
23:56capabilities,
23:57payment capabilities,
23:58the amount
23:59of people
24:00in the country
24:00within income
24:02that can buy
24:03fashion,
24:04competitive levels,
24:06marketing costs
24:07and you try
24:09to find
24:09the best match
24:10based on what
24:10you know
24:11that works best
24:11for you.
24:12and so
24:14it's very
24:15very similar
24:16to what he explains
24:17and every new market
24:18you roll out
24:19you actually
24:20become smarter
24:21about what is
24:22important for you
24:23and so along
24:26one of the most
24:27important things
24:27is to really
24:28validate your hypothesis
24:29along the way
24:30and to learn
24:31from every new market
24:32entry
24:33but yeah
24:34very much
24:35what has been told
24:36by you.
24:37I think
24:38in our case
24:38we chose
24:39so again
24:40started in France
24:41and then expanded
24:41to Italy,
24:42Spain and Germany
24:43so apart
24:44from the basic
24:45economic things
24:47like GDP
24:47number of companies
24:49in the country
24:50number of newly
24:52incorporated companies
24:53every year
24:54also number of
24:55freelancers
24:56and so on
24:56so this was
24:58of course
24:58an important point
25:00incumbent
25:01so how
25:02you know
25:02traditional banks
25:03are loved
25:04or often hated
25:06or not so much loved
25:07in those markets
25:09of course
25:10you know
25:10prices
25:11and like
25:12the you know
25:12overall competition
25:13that's the important part
25:14but for us
25:15it was also very much
25:16around license
25:17we have
25:18a you know
25:19French payment
25:20institution license
25:21that we've
25:21passported across
25:22the European Union
25:23so we were not
25:24even thinking
25:25of going outside
25:26of the European Union
25:26so that was
25:27the first
25:27you know
25:27criteria
25:28the second one
25:29was let's
25:30make it easy
25:31for our tech
25:32to scale
25:33and to have
25:34as much as possible
25:35the same products
25:36and for that
25:37being within
25:38the SIPA region
25:39so like
25:39the SIPA network
25:40for the payments
25:41was important
25:41and similarly
25:43also for marketing reasons
25:45but also for technical reasons
25:46being within the Eurozone
25:47was you know
25:48a good thing
25:49for have like
25:50only you know
25:50Euro
25:51one currency to manage
25:52and so basically
25:53we had you know
25:54the Eurozone country list
25:56and we said okay
25:56the large
25:57you know
25:58the top three ones
25:58are Germany
25:59Italy and Spain
26:00so let's go there
26:00maybe one
26:01one other important
26:02or interesting
26:03part of what we did
26:04is that
26:04contrary to what
26:06lots of people say
26:08we didn't go like
26:09one by one
26:09we launched
26:10almost at the same time
26:12Italy, Spain and Germany
26:13because our hypothesis
26:15I mean we had two hypothesis
26:16the first one is
26:17we're not sure
26:18which one will work best
26:19so let's you know
26:20let's waste time
26:21you can see both ways
26:22but that was
26:23our first thing
26:24the second thing is
26:25anyway it takes
26:26quite a long time
26:27to be strong in a market
26:29so let's not wait too much
26:30because anyway
26:31we want to be strong
26:32you know
26:32across Europe
26:33and so these four markets
26:34are important
26:35to be strong
26:36across Europe
26:36and maybe the last point
26:37is that
26:38without having
26:39three new
26:40country managers
26:44starting a country
26:45at the same time
26:46we're also unable
26:47to kind of
26:47do some A-B testing
26:49in a way
26:49like you know
26:50we try something
26:50in Germany
26:51to something else
26:51in Spain
26:52and then we compare
26:53of course the market
26:54is different
26:54but still there are
26:55some learnings
26:56and some
26:57things we can
26:58you know
26:58be faster at iterating
27:00like that
27:01like if you
27:02said like
27:03you know
27:03I said
27:03I don't know
27:03like a radio ad
27:05in Germany
27:05maybe a TV ad
27:07in Spain
27:08you know
27:08it's very easy
27:08to do that
27:09because of course
27:10different markets
27:10different languages
27:11and so on
27:11and so we did
27:12those kind of things
27:13and that was also
27:14quite interesting
27:15and quite helpful
27:15I mean if you have
27:17the ability
27:17we did the same
27:18we always did
27:19a couple markets
27:20at the same time
27:21and then you learn
27:22a lot from that
27:22you maybe focus
27:23for a while
27:24on one of them
27:24and then continue again
27:25and it gives you
27:26a lot of extra
27:27learnings because of it
27:29so I think that
27:30if you have the funding
27:31for it
27:32playing at multiple
27:33chess boards
27:34can really enable
27:35yourself to learn faster
27:36it also creates
27:37some internal competition
27:38and sometimes it helps
27:39because like
27:40each country is like
27:41oh they're growing
27:42super fast in Poland
27:43oh they're growing
27:44super fast in Spain
27:45or wherever
27:46and then it creates
27:47some sort of
27:47positive loop
27:49of I mean
27:50everybody's helping
27:51each other
27:51but we look at the metrics
27:52and how you're growing
27:53in your country
27:54and so it's also
27:55good between teams
27:56to have the learnings
27:58and also the competition
27:59going on
28:01totally agree
28:01I think obviously
28:03different companies
28:04have different approaches
28:05and it depends a little bit
28:06on the type
28:07of the business you're in
28:08so for example
28:08Get Your Guide
28:09we're a global marketplace
28:10and so when we grow
28:13or expand
28:13you want to use
28:14the power of the network
28:15for example
28:16initially we started
28:18with Swiss people
28:19doing things in Switzerland
28:20then they go to Germany
28:21and then we think about
28:22what do German customers need
28:24and they want to go
28:24to Paris and London
28:25and then when we have
28:26inventory in Paris and London
28:27we think who else
28:28goes to Paris and London
28:29and obviously it's the Italian
28:31it's the French
28:31and so you want to go
28:33into adjacent fields
28:35on your core vectors
28:36of growth
28:36so the core vectors
28:37of growth for us
28:38are destinations
28:39so today we cover
28:40a couple thousand destinations
28:42there are tens of
28:43thousands of destinations
28:44the next vector
28:45is source markets
28:46so who are your customers
28:47and you can only
28:49unlock those source markets
28:50when you actually have
28:51relevant inventory
28:53in those destinations
28:54and then you think about
28:55adding on more categories
28:56so for example
28:57we started with
28:58mostly focusing on guided tours
29:00then we added on attractions
29:02then we added on river cruises
29:04then we added on shows and events
29:05so you want to look at
29:06what is the power
29:07of your network today
29:08and how can you use that power
29:10to go into adjacent fields
29:12all great insight
29:13but there's one
29:13as a former economical journalist
29:16that I have to ask you all
29:17is the profitability of the country
29:20when you open the country
29:21of course it's not profitable
29:22but at what point
29:23it becomes necessary
29:24to become a profitable unit
29:28it's easier to be profitable
29:30in one country
29:30than to be profitable
29:32when you take into account
29:34the cost of the heart
29:35I would say
29:36like the trunk of your company
29:38because this costs a lot
29:39actually building a global company
29:41requires a super big headquarter
29:47with not only the people
29:48who can support the headquarters
29:50but also the tech and everything
29:52and this costs a lot
29:53and so you have to split those costs
29:55into the countries
29:56to really see if it's becoming profitable
30:01or not in that country
30:02because if you only count the money
30:04they can bring
30:05but then all the engineering costs
30:07and all the global spending
30:11you make for making the entire thing work
30:13if you keep it at the headquarters
30:15as a cost
30:16then of course
30:17the countries are super profitable
30:20super fast
30:20because the benefit
30:21from the technology
30:23which is spread
30:24so you have to think of a way
30:25as well
30:26to reallocate some costs locally
30:28to create some kind of fair competition
30:31with regard to what profitable means
30:35anyone else
30:36want to say
30:36I think
30:38so we're still very much
30:40in a growth phase
30:42and we're targeting
30:43to be breaking even
30:45in three years from now
30:46so
30:47still not for tomorrow
30:49but
30:51I think the way we see it
30:53is more
30:53are we on the right trajectory
30:55so
30:55not being profitable today
30:57we don't expect
30:58the newer markets
31:00to be profitable today
31:01and no one
31:02I mean our investors
31:03don't either
31:04but it's more
31:05compared
31:06and that's why
31:07having one historical market
31:09so France for us
31:09is important
31:10compared to the trajectory
31:12we saw in France
31:13are we somehow
31:15on a similar trajectory
31:16like is the trend similar
31:18and if so
31:19well it's probably looking good
31:20if it's better
31:21that's even better
31:22and if it's much worse
31:23then maybe we have a problem
31:25and so we more see it like that
31:26relative to what we've seen
31:28in earlier markets
31:29and so far so good
31:31but it's true that
31:32I mean
31:33the goal ultimately
31:34in a couple of years
31:35is to be breaking even
31:36but for sure
31:37even if we allocate rightly
31:39the cost
31:40as Fred was saying
31:41there's no doubt
31:42that France
31:43would be profitable first
31:44and then the other markets
31:45with you know
31:46one, two, three years
31:47of delay
31:47because we started them
31:49you know later
31:50so it makes sense
31:51so I think
31:53when you have a successful product
31:55with a good market fit
31:56and you have
31:57a logical way
31:59of investing in it
32:00it's not so difficult
32:02to become profitable
32:03it's actually
32:04the difficult part
32:05is
32:05like
32:06how can I develop
32:07projects
32:07new countries
32:08in an ROI
32:10constrained way
32:11that I can
32:12allow myself
32:13to not be profitable
32:14because we are allowed
32:16to be unprofitable
32:17because the investment logic
32:19that we have
32:19on other countries
32:20other elements
32:21that we have
32:22is very sound
32:22I mean
32:23I assume
32:23I mean
32:24I know my own numbers
32:24but
32:25these are great companies
32:27so
32:28the hard thing is
32:29is to be able
32:30to stack up
32:31enough projects
32:32that you invest in
32:33right now
32:33that will bring
32:34great return later
32:35and that's actually
32:36the difficult part
32:37the easy part
32:38will be to become
32:39profitable
32:39just say like
32:40well
32:41we're going to
32:42stop expanding
32:43we're going to
32:43stop innovating
32:44and we'll be
32:45profitable
32:46maybe one thing
32:48to ask
32:48is
32:50to be
32:51really aware
32:52of the difference
32:53between
32:53the profitability
32:54of a business model
32:56and the profitability
32:57of the company
32:58and that's also
33:00sometimes
33:01now it's getting
33:02better
33:02but there were
33:03some moments
33:04where
33:06and even
33:07journalists
33:07not you
33:08but some
33:09other journalists
33:10would not
33:11really understand
33:12that a company
33:13which is not
33:14profitable
33:14can raise
33:16a lot of money
33:17it is not
33:18profitable
33:18but the business
33:19model is profitable
33:20and this is the reason
33:21why there is an
33:22investment which is made
33:23because the unit
33:24economics
33:24of what you're
33:26building
33:26are super profitable
33:28but right now
33:28the company is not
33:29because it's investing
33:30a lot in its growth
33:32in its expansion
33:33in its tech
33:34but actually
33:36the little
33:37diamond
33:38that is in the middle
33:39which is the
33:39business model
33:40and which creates
33:41the unit economics
33:42of the business model
33:43is profitable
33:44which is the reason
33:45why investors
33:46come and invest
33:47even though the company
33:48is losing a lot of money
33:49for years
33:50I had to explain
33:51sometimes to journalists
33:52that they would not
33:54understand why
33:55we had raised
33:55like 100 or 200 million
33:57and we were not
33:59profitable
34:00you're like
34:01yeah of course
34:02because if we were
34:03profitable
34:05we would not
34:06have raised
34:07it would be a very
34:08bad management
34:08to raise
34:09money that you
34:11don't spend
34:11actually
34:12because you make
34:13dilution on the
34:13company
34:14and you make
34:15some sort of
34:16additional weight
34:18and for not spending
34:19the money
34:19that would be wrong
34:20so that's why
34:22it's very important
34:22to make the difference
34:23between the business
34:24model profitability
34:26and the
34:28company profitability
34:30it's different
34:30and I think it's
34:31going to be a super
34:32interesting period
34:33right now
34:33I mean we have
34:34had years of super
34:35low interest rates
34:36capital was very cheap
34:38many companies
34:39were able to raise
34:40money
34:41and we'll see now
34:41we'll go through
34:42a year or longer
34:44where that becomes
34:44harder
34:45and we'll see
34:45you know
34:46who really has
34:47this unit economics
34:48soundly set up
34:49and can go through
34:50these times
34:51so it's in
34:52it's also a thing
34:53if you look at
34:54profitability
34:54it's also
34:55for example
34:55you explained about
34:56country profitability
34:57total group profitability
34:58it's also
34:59even profitability
35:00is being used
35:01over the last year
35:02quite loosely
35:02like adjusted
35:03EBITDA
35:05and then on the
35:06adjustment part
35:07there was a lot
35:07of adjusted
35:08for
35:08the famous one
35:10is for community
35:11I think
35:11or something like that
35:12and so we will see
35:13which adjusted
35:14EBITDAs are real
35:15earnings
35:15because in the end
35:16we're building
35:17businesses that need
35:17to produce cash
35:19and so it will be
35:20a super interesting
35:21time and challenging
35:22and innovative
35:23for anybody
35:23to get through it
35:24as well
35:24and also
35:25you raised
35:26a lot of money
35:28and for some
35:29really recently
35:30at a very good valuation
35:31but my question
35:32to go back
35:33to the theme
35:33of today
35:34is how important
35:35is it to have
35:36on board
35:36investors
35:37that can help you
35:39and how can they
35:40help you
35:40to go international
35:43so I think
35:44super crucial
35:45I mean we have
35:46investors from
35:47all the way
35:47from Singapore
35:48all the way
35:49to the United States
35:50and I think
35:51part of the
35:52what investors bring
35:54is beyond capital
35:55is network
35:56so we've had
35:57a lot of introductions
35:58made through KKR
36:01through Temasek
36:02who then introduced
36:02us to local partners
36:03because our business
36:05is very local
36:06so for example
36:07one of the experiences
36:08we offer
36:08is where you can open
36:09you can open up
36:11the Vatican Museum
36:11at 6am
36:12so this means
36:13you need to be
36:14really really close
36:15to those museums
36:17and the investment
36:18network can really help
36:19but more importantly
36:20I think it's about
36:21the understanding
36:22of those investors
36:23of what it takes
36:24in order to
36:25capture those markets
36:26the duration it takes
36:28the amount of capital
36:29it takes
36:29having the patience
36:30and the perseverance
36:31because the markets
36:32that we all operate
36:33in are massive
36:34hundred plus billion
36:34dollar markets
36:35and you know
36:36those things
36:37are not one in a day
36:38and sometimes
36:38when you have
36:39transatlantic investors
36:40they understand
36:41what the big price is
36:42right
36:43so it's not just
36:43you know
36:44winning the German market
36:45winning the Dach market
36:46but how can you be
36:47the global leader
36:47and there
36:48the international perspective
36:49is very helpful
36:52yeah I mean
36:53I totally agree
36:54I think investors
36:55and we've read
36:56quite a bit of money
36:57but investors bring
36:58money
36:58that's obvious
37:00also experience
37:01and also
37:03some kind of patience
37:04as you were saying
37:05so they know
37:06that you know
37:07to build
37:07they know that
37:08building Facebook
37:09or Google
37:10or some other companies
37:11takes time
37:12and so they have
37:14you know
37:14this kind of
37:14mid to long term view
37:16because they've seen
37:18the movie already
37:19they've invested in
37:20a lot of our investors
37:22had invested in
37:23dozens of unicorns
37:25before we became one
37:27and so that's also why
37:29we have quite a few
37:30American investors
37:31on board
37:32because unfortunately
37:33if I may say
37:34there are still
37:35many more unicorns
37:36in the US
37:37than in Europe
37:38which makes sense
37:39and I think
37:42the last point
37:43is around
37:44you know
37:45network
37:45and introductions
37:46I think
37:46our investors
37:47have introduced us
37:49to not only
37:50you know
37:51potential partners
37:52or
37:53but also very much
37:54to other companies
37:55that have been
37:56you know
37:56successfully scaling
37:57and
37:58you might know
38:00Nubank
38:01for instance
38:01in Brazil
38:02which is
38:04probably the largest
38:05fintech now
38:06in Latin America
38:07they introduced
38:08the IPO
38:09sorry
38:09on the Nasdaq
38:10a couple of months ago
38:11maybe not the best timing
38:13in hindsight
38:13but at least
38:15they're still
38:15a super successful company
38:16and I remember
38:17speaking with their teams
38:19with an intro
38:20from our investors
38:20and it was of course
38:21great to speak
38:22with you know
38:23a company
38:23that is similar to ours
38:24not at all competing
38:26with us
38:26because they're only
38:27in Latin America
38:28and you know
38:29speaking very openly
38:30about the different challenges
38:32the steps they had reached
38:33and so on
38:34it was super interesting
38:35so investors are great
38:37but I think talking to operators
38:39is even better
38:41and I think that's also
38:42what investors bring
38:43yeah I would totally agree
38:45this is possibly
38:48one of the best added value
38:51from investors
38:52it's to put you in touch
38:53with people
38:54who've had
38:54or who are having
38:55right now
38:56the same issues as you
38:57because it may sound
38:59a bit surprising
39:02but actually
39:02you often feel alone
39:04as a company
39:06when you build something
39:07especially when it's quite new
39:09and it's very good
39:11to be in touch
39:12with people
39:12who've had those same issues
39:14the other added value
39:15investors can have
39:16when they invest
39:17is that usually
39:18they do a due diligence
39:20on your company
39:21when they invest
39:21but they also talk
39:22to all
39:23a lot of other actors
39:25sometimes of course
39:27your direct competitors
39:27in other countries
39:29and just post investment
39:30when they chose
39:31I remember when Axel
39:32decided to invest on us
39:34they had scanned
39:35the entire planet
39:37for anyone
39:37who would do
39:39do carpooling
39:39on earth
39:40like 70 teams
39:41in many countries
39:43I mean
39:43Philippe from Axel
39:45had been travelling
39:46the entire planet
39:47post investment
39:48he told us
39:49ok so I've met
39:50this team here
39:51they're good
39:51in that country
39:52this team here
39:53they're good
39:53in that country
39:54and then
39:54we made some M&As
39:56with those teams
39:56which helped us
39:57grow a lot faster
39:59in those countries
39:59because we were able
40:00to partner
40:01with teams
40:02who had been identified
40:03by the investor
40:04as good teams
40:05even though they had
40:06chosen us
40:07because we were
40:07more advanced
40:08they knew that
40:09in those countries
40:09we would be recruiting
40:10making some
40:12acquis hires
40:12with those teams
40:13to grow the market
40:14locally
40:15it's fascinating
40:17Thomas
40:17just one last question
40:19because I see
40:20we're running out of time
40:21and there's one topic
40:22that I really want to
40:22want you guys
40:23to have an insight on
40:25is of course
40:25what's happening
40:26on the global scale
40:27from COVID
40:28to Ukraine
40:29to the war
40:29to what's happening
40:31how do you stay agile
40:32in this world
40:33how do you keep
40:36your internalization
40:36and nationalization
40:38going
40:38how do you adapt
40:41I think
40:43one of the key things
40:44that you need to build
40:44is you need to build
40:45resilience
40:46that you can go
40:46through crises
40:47so we were able
40:48to go to a COVID crisis
40:50we were able to go
40:50to this war crisis
40:51which was impacting us
40:53a lot
40:53we have a lot of people
40:54in the Ukraine
40:55and we were able
40:56to organize our teams
40:58to do enormous amount
40:59of humanitarian work
41:00so I think
41:02in those times
41:03you need to make sure
41:04that you prepare
41:05for that before
41:05so I think
41:06one of the key things
41:09is that you always
41:10need to be
41:10let's say
41:11ready for war
41:11right
41:12so next to let's say
41:14putting a lot of effort
41:15in massive growth plans
41:17you need to be able
41:18to build something
41:19that is
41:19has something
41:21that is not fragile
41:22because if you only
41:23optimize towards
41:24one vector
41:25which is growth
41:25and you don't
41:26invest in your fundaments
41:28and you build enough
41:29you know
41:30a cushion around it
41:31then you get
41:32you can get trapped
41:33and we were lucky
41:34with each of these crises
41:35that we were prepared
41:36and we were lucky
41:37that we had
41:39shareholders
41:39which are operating
41:41under the same values
41:42so when COVID crisis hit
41:44we donated
41:44more than 1 million
41:46or a million
41:46on humanitarian aid
41:48in France
41:49and other European countries
41:50when the Ukrainian crisis
41:51hit
41:52we donated 2 million
41:53towards directly
41:54helping
41:55the war situation
41:58and we didn't find
41:58the right NGOs
41:59so we built infrastructures
42:01to bring the goods
42:02to people
42:02in war zones
42:03in Ukraine
42:04so I think
42:05you need to be agile
42:06but you also
42:07need to be prepared
42:08because you can only
42:08be agile
42:09when you're prepared
42:09you never know
42:10whether it's going
42:11to be a COVID crisis
42:12a real war
42:13around the corner
42:14or anything else
42:15so the preparedness
42:16is what actually
42:17makes you agile
42:18I think
42:19and
42:20maybe just very simply
42:22I think for us
42:23it's also a good reminder
42:24to
42:25even though we've raised
42:26a lot of money
42:26and so on
42:27to really focus
42:27on what really matters
42:29and probably two things
42:30focusing on our clients
42:31and making sure
42:32on a daily basis
42:33we help them
42:35with the product
42:36and service we're building
42:37and the second point
42:38is the team
42:38making sure we're
42:40gathering a great team
42:41and making them
42:42making it easier
42:43for them
42:44to build that amazing
42:45service for our clients
42:46so that seems very obvious
42:48but with
42:49sometimes too much
42:50speed
42:51maybe sometimes
42:51a bit too much money
42:52as well
42:52you kind of forget
42:54that's what matters
42:55and so
42:57I think it brings
42:58a bit of refocus
42:59on what is essential
43:00and that's also
43:02the good side
43:03of the story
43:04and that's what I mean
43:05with the fundaments
43:06right
43:06building the fundaments
43:07strong
43:08that you can be
43:08agile in those times
43:11so I would say
43:12three quick things
43:13one is of course
43:14raise funds
43:15when you don't need it
43:16we raised 500 million
43:18in December 2019
43:19COVID was
43:21obviously three months
43:22after our revenues
43:22went to zero
43:23for basically a year
43:26secondly I would say
43:27is to be very principled
43:28for example
43:29for us was always
43:30customer first
43:31making sure they got
43:32all the refunds
43:33making sure they're safe
43:34and I think the third one
43:35is transparency
43:37towards the staff
43:38sort of throughout
43:39the entire COVID crisis
43:40up until today
43:41we share a cash balance
43:43with all employees
43:43right
43:44so where are we with cash
43:45what's the run rate
43:46because it's only
43:47through full transparency
43:48and making sure
43:50that everybody believes
43:50you're in the same team
43:51same boat
43:52that you can actually
43:53row in the same direction
43:55yeah maybe in one word
43:56that would be
43:57create a resilient culture
43:59because you'll have
44:00to go through
44:01all the changes
44:04with your team
44:05and so the better culture
44:07you build
44:07the easier it will be
44:08and so you also
44:10have to be prepared
44:11for sometimes
44:12roller coasters
44:13because sometimes
44:14your volumes get to zero
44:15at least for us
44:16when people were confined
44:17we were close to zero volume
44:19and now that the gas is up
44:21we are close to
44:22a lot more
44:23because people are sharing more
44:24so you know
44:25like you have to be prepared
44:26for a roller coaster
44:27and your culture
44:28helps you with that
44:30great
44:31we're way past time
44:32so
44:32thank you very much
44:34we can really
44:35I really enjoyed it
44:36so hopefully you did
44:37and hopefully you did
44:39thanks everyone
44:40thank you
44:42and have a great
44:43Viva Tech
44:44thank you guys
44:45Thank you
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