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Colorize: Celebrating The Hairs and Hues of Hollywood Panel
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00:00Hello, hello. Hello, everybody. How's everyone doing? I'm Kara Sabin. I'm the CEO of Shea Moisture.
00:09I'm also CEO of Beauty and Well-Being for Unilever North America, and I'm so excited to be here with
00:15you to have this really important conversation. I have two guests that are going to join me.
00:20First, I'd like to bring Keisha Center to the stage from Monkey Paw Productions. Let's get a big
00:28hand of applause for Keisha. And next, I think you also know this next person I'm bringing
00:39to the stage, Coco Jones. I know, it's a little bit of a hike. Thank you, Coco.
00:58Hey, y'all. They're like, hey. All right. So let's get into this conversation. We actually
01:14started this conversation in January of this year at Sundance Film Festival. We had Logan
01:21Browning, who's on Dear White People, and we were talking about the impact of colorism on
01:26black actors and actresses. And so we want to keep that conversation going. So first,
01:32I'm going to introduce a formally. You may have seen earlier this week on Sunday that someone
01:37won an award. VT Best New Artist, Coco Jones. Congratulations.
01:45How did that feel?
01:47I mean, it was honestly very overwhelming. I think just because I've done this thing all
01:53my life, all my childhood, like protecting myself from disappointment. So I just, I was
01:58like, ah, you know, I'm just happy to be nominated. Just happy to be there. So when they called
02:02my name, I was just shook. And then I got to see my family in the audience, and they haven't
02:07seen me perform since I was 17. So it was just very overwhelming. I was super grateful.
02:12It was so beautiful to see because you could tell how appreciative you were. And it just, we
02:17were all cheering you on. So congratulations.
02:19Thank y'all. Thank you guys.
02:20So it sounds like you know, uh, Coco Jones very well, but for the two of you that may
02:25not, um, in addition to her red hot music career, Coco's been on the big screen TV movies
02:31for years. And she also is on the tiny screen called Tik Tok. You have two point...
02:38Girl, I don't know.
02:39Okay. See, that's a real G. Two million something followers. I love following you. So we're
02:45so happy to have Coco. And then Keisha Center. Keisha, it's so great to have you here. Keisha
02:52is a globally recognized executive known for delivering game changing content at the intersection
02:58of entertainment, politics, philanthropy, and fashion. And as the senior vice president of
03:04the culture and impact at Monkey Paw Productions, she produces mission driven campaigns and content
03:11and brand partnerships that unpack the themes that we're going to get into today. So welcome,
03:16Keisha.
03:17It's such a pleasure to be here with both of you all. Thank you.
03:20Hello, everybody.
03:21All right. So, uh, we're here to talk about colorism and, um, we're going to just dive into
03:28it. So I want to toss the first question, uh, to you, Coco. If you could start, um, what does
03:34colorism mean to you and how do you think it shows up in media and entertainment?
03:41Well, can you guys hear us? Okay. Okay. Um, colorism to me, I feel like it's not something
03:50that I chose. I feel like it's something that my ancestors dealt with that we're constantly
03:56trying to break that cycle as, as a, as a people, but also like in the world, because even though
04:04it was, it happened to my ancestors, the world continued to perpetuate that same, um, unfair
04:12tactic, you know? So I look at it kind of like, uh, an additional bump in the road that I have
04:19no control of, you know? And so I try not to let it affect my self-confidence, the things that I know
04:25that are way deeper rooted and have been in history for such a long time. I think it, it's
04:31definitely changing in media, even to have someone like you, Keisha and Monkey Power Productions
04:35that strategically can put out content that, that showcases black people in different lights
04:41and our different talents. And then it does well in the media. It just continues to shift
04:47the narrative of the world that like, okay, we did learn a certain way and we were instilled
04:53a certain truth about who to put on screen and what stories to tell, but the world is
04:58evolving, you know? And, and it doesn't work the same way as well. So I do think it's gotten
05:03better with time. Um, and I do feel like chocolate girls are really having their moments.
05:07Hello! Yes, we are!
05:10The moment that we have worked hard for and we deserve. So I'm really living for that.
05:14I love that.
05:15And I think that the more we continue to bring each other up, the more we continue to go out
05:19and support productions and movies that feature us, the more it'll show the world and the
05:25people of power, like, okay, maybe we need to tell these stories more. They seem to be
05:28doing well.
05:28Right. I love that. And I love that you also said it's, it's global, it's worldwide.
05:34We were talking backstage. Yes, we talk about colorism in the black community and that's what
05:38we're going to talk about here because we're three brown girls, but you could go to any country
05:43around the world and the impact of colorism is prevalent. So Keisha, for you, how would
05:50you define colorism? What does it mean to you?
05:52Yeah, you know, and I, I'm so happy to be here with Coco and you and one of those, like,
05:57our goal is to make sure that this moment is a lifetime. That we are all, we are positioning
06:02women and redefining and broadening the definition of what beauty looks like. We can't no longer
06:08define it by closest proximity to whiteness, right? We are beautiful hues, beautiful textures
06:15and shapes that show up and we need to be able to broaden the understanding of beauty and what
06:20it looks like as we look around here today. So for colorism, for us, what we started learning
06:24was, you know, it was Alice Walker who coined the phrase in 1982 of colorism and she was seeing
06:31how black people in particular were represented in storytelling and in novels. And so she looked
06:37out of the prejudice around hues, right? And so, and their color, racial discrimination
06:42for darker skinned people. And so to be sparking that conversation and to make sure their representation,
06:50what you're doing and how someone else sees themselves, right, and sees their possibility,
06:55be it through the content that we create from Lupita to Daniel Kaluuya from Kiki, you know,
07:01we really want to continue to redefine and broaden and, and take a responsibility in Hollywood to say
07:08that beauty and beauty and blackness and beauty and people of color, like it's global, shows up all
07:14across hues and we have to be redefining that. We have to be at the forefront of that conversation.
07:18Yeah. And I, you know, I know we're, we're each from different generations, but if you each could speak to,
07:25when is the first time that you really felt like you saw yourself, that you felt seen, whether it be in media
07:32or Hollywood or music, when, do you remember that moment when you felt like, I feel seen?
07:40So I am, I'm a Cosby kid. I don't know who else was watching the Cosby show as a kid, but Rudy Huxtable
07:47was when I saw myself. We were the same age. Also, her name was Keisha. Her real name was Keisha, right?
07:54So as a, so I think I did have a privilege of being that same age and what that show meant for me,
07:59and also the diversity of that family, right? That whole family had representation across the entire
08:06spectrum. And so I saw myself as a kid. And honestly, when I would be in class, kids would call me Rudy,
08:12you know, but like, that was one of the first time. And I think that's a privilege to be able to see it
08:16that young of a positive character that you, that you were, that you, that you saw and you look like.
08:20But then also, I have to admit, you had all types of shows and things that were from,
08:25from Essence magazine that was always in my house, right? And you know, all these magazines,
08:30magazines that were in our house, I got to see other beautiful women, um, and people that look
08:35like me. But that really is the first time, probably what, I don't know, elementary school
08:39of where I saw myself on television. And that imprinted for me at a young age, the importance
08:45of that to where I am today and the work that we're doing. What about you, Coco?
08:49What about you, Coco?
08:50For me, the first time, I'm a little younger than the Cosby era, but the Disney era had me in a
08:55chokehold.
08:56Okay.
08:57Okay. So when I saw the Cheetah Girls,
09:01Oh, yeah.
09:02I know you said that.
09:02I was so hyped. I was like, we can do that? We're allowed to do that? Like, I saw multiple
09:09different ethnicities of women, all singing and loving each other, supporting each other
09:14with bomb outfits. Like, they weren't put in any box. They didn't have to speak a certain
09:18way. They got to talk the way that we really talk. And of course, Raven was that girl and
09:23is that girl and will ever be that girl because she had her own show and she had the Cheetah
09:27Girls. But I was fascinated by the singing and acting and dancing all in one package because
09:34I always have felt like I'm multiple things. And I didn't want to ever feel like, okay, you
09:39pick one. You know, you can only be one thing. You can only get in where you fit in. And so
09:43when I got to see these women that looked like me and represented me be whatever they wanted
09:48to be, be creatively free to express themselves, it really inspired me so deeply. I would be
09:54up there learning the dances and the songs. I'd be like, we have a performance tonight,
09:58ladies and gentlemen. Okay. It was so inspiring. And I want to continue to make the next generation
10:04of women inspired because that's charged me up. I want to be able to pass that feeling to
10:09the next young black girl. It's so, I mean, representation, that is why it's so important
10:13because when you see that, it pours into you and it fuels you and it gives your, it gives
10:19you wings. And then you can pay that forward. And so you're, you're being that for the next
10:24generation. And Cara, what about you though? When did you first see your, oh yeah. So I'm a little
10:29older than both of you. But definitely Essence magazine that was always in my, in my house,
10:36I saw beautiful reflections of us across the diaspora. But the one moment I remember,
10:42and I had mentioned this in, in a, in another interview, there's an artist, her name's Patrice
10:47Russian. Yeah. She, you know, her music, forgive me knots, you remind me. And her album cover
10:54that I think was called straight from the heart. She's on the cover with these beautiful braids
10:58with this beautiful beads and she's brown. And this is when there were albums and I would stare
11:04at that album cover. And I felt like here's someone that looks like me and you just need
11:10to feel seen. I think ultimately that's what we want. Everyone just wants to see, be seen.
11:15So Keisha to that point, being the co-founder of the Colorized Project, could you explain what
11:21is the Colorized Project? What's the mission? What is it that you hope to accomplish?
11:25So for over two years, we've been hard at work with the league, a nonprofit that's a social
11:31impact nonprofit and bad robot production as well, Monkey Paul, to really look at color, color,
11:38colorism in Hollywood and to come up with and suggest actionable steps through a toolkit that
11:45we can share with industry, the people in the industry, from creatives to our talent, to our
11:52executives, to understand how throughout the entire process, from development all the way
11:56to post-production, that we can A, just create a space where we can have these conversations
12:01about colorism. So we can understand everyone doesn't know, right? Everyone doesn't know
12:05what it is. Everyone's not impacted the same. So can we start these conversations and create
12:10a toolkit where we can unlearn some biases that we might have and relearn new ways to look at
12:17people and broaden, as I said, we have to broaden the definition of what beauty looks like.
12:22The entertainment industry has so much power, right? We entertain, but we also educate and
12:28we also imprint, shape young people what the possibilities, where they can go, what they
12:33can do, the little shows they can put on in their room that they start doing shows on BET,
12:39right? You know, on stage. And so we have so much power. So we have created this toolkit
12:44where we are asking, you know, to go to colorizedproject.com to sign up, to learn how you can help take
12:51actionable steps to join us in this conversation to do better. And we all can do better, whether
12:56we are black or brown, we can all learn better and how we can all make sure that our talent
13:01that we care so much about that puts in themselves to be on screen, that those of us behind the camera,
13:06both of us in the executive offices and rooms can be doing the best things we can to support
13:12them and to make sure our audiences feel seen as well, too.
13:15You know, I remember when I was first starting in my career and I was, you know, very junior
13:21and didn't feel very empowered. And companies, if they were doing a creative brief, the brief
13:28would say the casting they wanted, someone that was ethnically ambiguous.
13:33Girl, I saw that all the time.
13:35And so that always used to bother me because it's like, well, what does, what does that
13:40really mean? You just want to other anyone that's not white into one group and you don't
13:45want to take a position and hire a black actress or a Latina actress. You just want it ethnically
13:51ambiguous. So when I did finally reach a point where I felt empowered, I was like, I don't
13:56want to see another creative brief with that. Like, say what you mean and what you want.
13:59But being in the business for several years, you started quite young. Are there moments where
14:06you felt like your complexion may have inhibited your progress or your success?
14:11Absolutely. I think at a really young age, it registered to me that the girls who always
14:17got the job were lighter than me. And I didn't really know how to take that because for me,
14:25I wanted, I wanted the job so much that I just, I kind of think I desensitized myself
14:32to that. But it was really suppressed in me to the point where when I would see like a light
14:36skinned girl, I would automatically assume her personality, like what she thinks of me.
14:41And I didn't even know I would do that because, you know, I've been experiencing that since I
14:45was a little kid. It wasn't until I went to therapy that I would say little things. Okay.
14:50Therapy is real. I would say little things like, oh yeah, I mean, it'll probably be her.
14:53She'll probably get it. She's light skin, you know? And my therapist would be like, who,
14:57who is telling you that you're underqualified? I'm like, well, come on. Like I just, it was
15:02just so second nature to me until somebody stopped me and was like, the things that you're saying
15:07are trauma. That is not truth, you know? And I think it really can be changed. Even having
15:13someone like you, Keisha, you would probably be the person to go to bat for me when I'm auditioning.
15:18You know, there's so many little pieces that have to be put together in order for me to get
15:23the job. So when there's someone there that looks like me, they can fight for me in those,
15:28in those rooms and in those meetings when the executives are deciding where they're going to
15:32put the money. You know, you could be the one to push my resume up to the table. So I don't want
15:37y'all to think that it's only me making waves because I'm on the screen. There are several people
15:42behind the screen that are saying, choose this girl, choose this girl. You know what I'm saying?
15:46And I need people in my corner. So you're more, you're more important to me than me being up
15:51there. I'm serious because how can I get the job if I don't have people going to bat for me?
15:55You know, if it's only people who don't look like me, they won't get me. They will not fight for me.
16:00So, um, I've realized that, yes, I have experienced that a lot, but I think for me, I, I had to work
16:08to make it not about me. It's history. You know, it's, it's culture that we have to remold. That's
16:17hard to do. It's like rebranding. It is. It's hard. It's reframing. I, I, I call it decolonizing
16:25your mind. You have to change the lens through which you see the world and what you think is
16:31beautiful, what you think is worthy. And it takes a deep programming. So yes, go ahead.
16:37And that's what, what she's saying. It is comprehensive is how do we work behind the
16:43camera in those rooms to make sure they're protected, they're seen, and we don't always
16:48get it right. That's one of the reasons why we wanted to be at the table is that you can
16:53get it wrong. But so how do we learn together, right? How do we learn together? How do we
16:57work with partners? Like we're so glad Shea wanted to have this conversation, right? You know,
17:01how do we work together to do everything that we can to make sure our talent, our stars, our
17:07elevated, our scene, and our comfortable. And then the people who are watching our audience,
17:12they're so important to us that they relate and they feel, you heard her when she came out.
17:16You heard them when she came out. Like what do we do to continue to reinforce that and then
17:20arm people with those tools to do it? So can you speak to, I feel like this is similar to the
17:27conversation around diversity that you must have, Keisha, in some of the rooms that you're in,
17:32but can you speak to, like when you're speaking to other groups and you're trying to help them
17:36get it, what is, you're speaking to other groups and you're trying to have them understand the work
17:41that you're trying to do with Colorize. How do you explain why it's good for business,
17:46a more inclusive approach to seeing talent? I think, I think that's going to be a continuous
17:51ongoing conversation, right? And I, and what I've seen is it's twofold for me. One,
17:56it is box office. I mean, you do see when you have a more diverse cast, the numbers don't lie.
18:03It, people come out, you come out in droves and we know that we come out to support,
18:07we come out to see the stories that matter to us and we see that and we see that also in box office
18:12and fields. I mean, look at Little Mermaid, look what's happening, you know, people are excited about
18:15that, but then it also is a responsibility. And I think it's a responsibility to make sure that we are
18:21authentically telling the story. So one of the things that you bring up is that we got to continue to
18:26make sure that people like me, people like you are in those decision-making rooms and in those,
18:31in those positions to be able to advocate for, put forward, bring new ideas to the table.
18:38And so I think that we are content. We got to continuously do this work to see that we're, it's good for
18:44business and it's good because it's our responsibility as well. So let me, this may be a sensitive
18:49question, but do you find that conversation more challenging when you're speaking to white executives
18:57or people of color? Because colorism, as you know, is within our own community.
19:04Yeah. That's a hard, that's actually a hard question. But what I will say is that whether you're speaking
19:12to an all white audience or more people of color, the message is still the same. The message is still
19:17the same of why it's, why it's important and why we need to push this forward. And I do think, you
19:22know, our, I do think that no matter what, um, um, production you're on, I mean, look at the cast of
19:29Bel Air. It's a, like to reimagine that with new eyes, new lenses, right? It is absolutely important.
19:37And that takes us, I mean, if, if we're all, if we're mostly black executives putting that forward,
19:43it takes us in that room all thinking about how do we cast this way to reimagine some of the things
19:47that we might not have been able to cast years and years ago. And so you still have to have that
19:52same narrative. So I think I would say whatever rooms I'm in, I show up with the same message and
19:57the importance of why we need to move this work forward. But because it, you're, you're speaking to
20:04who you're speaking to is who you're speaking to, but it is about educating and pushing that forward.
20:09And it takes all of us. It takes all of us white and people of color and black people in that room
20:14to be able to actually make that, to make that change. I'm not sure how much time we have someone
20:20one minute, one minute. Okay. So for each of you, what's one thing that you would like
20:27to leave with the audience? Yes. I was just thinking about this. I was like, oh,
20:31I want one more thing to say. I want to say, I know we're talking a lot about colorism and the
20:36negative and then the plight. But one thing that I've consistently seen in my life is the people
20:42who look like me are so good at what they do that there's no choice, but them to eventually win.
20:48You know, I don't see any mediocrity in the women that look like me. Truthfully, it's not allowed,
20:54but I will say whatever it is that you're striving for, the better you are at that skill,
20:59the more they have no choice. Eventually it was going to be me. They have no choice. I'm going
21:05to be the best. I'm going to work the hardest. You know what I'm saying? And even when the
21:10opportunity didn't go to me, I did not give up. I wanted to a couple of times, but I knew for
21:18myself. And it's another thing too, to know for yourself that you can have great things. It's one
21:24thing to move in it and hope it really pops eventually. But to know for yourself, I don't
21:30care what none of y'all say. I'm going to be the best at this. This is going to be my life
21:34and how it plays out. I don't know how I'm going to get there, but I'm not going to stop
21:37until I get there. All the women who, like one example, one of my best friends, she was
21:43casted in a show. When she went into the audition, they already had all the white people casted to
21:48play the mom, the dad, the sister. She went in there and she was so good and so prepared
21:53that they recasted the whole cast. You just got to show up and show out. That's what we
21:59have to do. And when it's the right opportunity, it will be us every time.
22:04All right. Well, I mean, yes.
22:06Amen to that. One thing I would leave the audience with is join us, like join us in this
22:13conversation and come and help us with ideas of how we can continue to press my job to make
22:21sure that we show up and we start having this conversation. So, you know, what we're asking
22:25while we're here throughout Essence is to use the hashtag, hashtag Colorize Project, and talk
22:32to us about when's the first time you saw someone that looked like yourself, right? And then join
22:37us on, we're launching our splash page today of colorizeproject.com and send us your information
22:43and let us be part of that conversation with you and be able to create the space where we
22:49start having this conversation and community. And that's the one key thing that I would love
22:53for us. Like, it's going to take collective work for all of us to get where we want to
22:57go. And I just think it will be, we, I know we want everyone at the table.
23:01That's great. Well, on behalf of Shea Moisture, I'm so happy to have both Keisha
23:05and Coco here with us. And, you know, we talk about health. We talk about healthy hair,
23:11healthy skin, but we also talk about healthy body and mind and spirit, financial health,
23:17healthy communities. And so continuing to have these kinds of conversations is what's really
23:21important to us at Shea Moisture. So thank you for listening and enjoy the rest of your Essence
23:26Fest. Thank you. Bye, y'all. All right. Thank you. Love you.
23:35Bye.
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