Manmohan Singh Govt Pressured CAG During ‘Coalgate’ Audit? | Ex-CAG P. Sesh Kumar EXCLUSIVE - video Dailymotion

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Did the UPA government try to influence the CAG during the explosive ‘Coalgate’ audits? In this exclusive conversation, former CAG official P. Sesh Kumar reveals what really happened behind the scenes, something that he also writes about in his latest book titled -- UNFOLDED: How the Audit Trail Heralded Financial Accountability and International Supreme Audit Institutions. Watch this revealing interview that uncovers the untold story of accountability, power, and politics in India.   #Exclusive #InFocus #Coalgate #CAG #UPA #ExclusiveInterview #CoalScam #PSeshKumar #PoliticalNews #IndiaPolitics #ManmohanSingh #CorruptionScandal #NewsAnalysis #Accountability #India   🔊 LIKE ➡ SHARE ➡ SUBSCRIBE  Download the Asianet News App now!  Available on Android & iOS  👉 Android:  https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.vserv.asianet&hl=en_IN   👉 iOS:  https://apps.apple.com/in/app/asianet-news-official/id1093450032   For More Updates:  Follow us on our What's app Channel: https://whatsapp.com/channel/0029Va5Bq3yKwqSLSQTxam0r  English: https://newsable.asianetnews.com/  Hindi: https://hindi.asianetnews.com/  Malayalam: https://www.asianetnews.com/  Kannada: https://kannada.asianetnews.com/  Tamil: https://tamil.asianetnews.com/  Telugu: https://telugu.asianetnews.com/  Bengali: https://bangla.asianetnews.com/  Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AsianetNewsa...  Follow us on Twitter:  https://twitter.com/AsianetNewsEN  Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ann.newsable/  ➡ If you like our video, give us a thumbs up and subscribe to our channel to get the daily dosage of news, entertainment, sports and more.

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00:00So it is my great honor to welcome P.C. Ishkumar. He's the former Director General of Audit at the

00:21Comptroller and Auditor General of India. For those who don't know CAG is basically an

00:25independent constitutional authority in India that audits the expenditure of the Indian government

00:30and the state-owned companies. Thank you so much, sir, for joining Asianate News for this discussion.

00:35I remember a last conversation on your earlier book, which is titled CAG, Ensuring Accountability

00:42Amidst Controversy. And I remember having discussion on a lot of crucial topics on reports

00:48getting delayed, the appointments, how they take place in CAG. But this time around, I'm going to

00:54be talking about your latest book, which is called Unfolded. Now we are, you know, moving

00:59towards a lot of digitalization. So is it happening digitally or still we are doing pen and paper?

01:05Someone want to ask CAG. I'm talking about CAG of India and what is available in the public domain.

01:11Yes. There is a strategic framework, AI strategy framework, and they're using data analysis in a

01:17big way that analytics also. Very recently in September, 2025, two deputy CAGs of CAG had conducted

01:26a press brief, perhaps first of its kind. Other than normally, occasionally, you know, there used

01:31to be press briefs after an audit report has been placed in parliament. But this was a proactive

01:36press brief trying to explain what are the modernization attempts at improving, professionalizing,

01:42auditing procedures, standards, and methodologies in keeping with developments in artificial intelligence

01:48and other. So they have evolved what a concept called a project called CAG Connect. So the whole

01:53idea is not to depend entirely on the paper trail, but to examine them large databases, downloading them,

02:02analyzing them through the auditing tools available, and then come to some conclusions. And if necessary,

02:10verify the outcomes also. In verification also, they are trying to consider using satellite imagery, remote

02:18verification, hybrid methodologies, reducing the paper trail. That is the attempt. That is at least the theory part.

02:24Now, you were questioning how far it has been implemented probably. That is what you wanted to know.

02:29But that CAG has to come out with a proper report. CAG office must have circulated some

02:35conference papers or some pilot studies or results of some efforts. So beneficiary verification, welfare,

02:43delivery of welfare, you know, all these things they have attempted, but not on a large scale on a

02:49continuous basis. You talk about how there is a greater need to move from the cash-based accounting

02:55to accrual-based accounting. If for our viewers, you can explain what is the difference in how we can,

03:00as a country, benefit from this accrual-based accounting. I have explained in my book very,

03:05in a very simple way, what exactly is cash accounting and what is accrual accounting.

03:10See, accrual accounting tells us the, our future liabilities, our assets, and what are the

03:20income that is not received before a particular date, but you know that belongs to this particular

03:25period. And also liabilities that belong to this period, which may occur later. And we are not

03:30accounting. For example, government guarantees are there. No, and they, they have an implication

03:36across for, for not only the, for current financial, for, for the future financial years also. So we don't

03:42account for what is called depreciation. We don't have valuation of assets properly done. So these are

03:47all, there are standards in the accrual world. And that to the end, most of the developed world is

03:54progressing towards the accrual system. And we also, also tried for the last 15 years or so,

04:00CAG is heading an effort, a massive effort to the government. CAG is interested with the government

04:07accounting standards advisory board. And one deputy CAG, the secretary level officer, heads that board.

04:14And that board is tasked with, you know, preparing and notifying, not notifying,

04:19at least recommending standards. See, for the shift to accrual system, we need standards. And then we

04:26have, what should I say, the, the legacy issues, how to transition from a particular system to a new

04:32system altogether. So it's a massive exercise. Mental makeup has to be changed. The willingness should be

04:38there for the state governments also. It's not just union government. You have to take the state governments

04:42also together. Standards have to be there. And standards have been notified, have been recommended.

04:48At least four to six standards have been notified. Government guarantees, contingent liabilities,

04:54so many things have been notified, have been recommended. Some have been notified. But you know,

04:58no pilots have started in an effective way. So it is dragging along. The sooner it shifts to the

05:04accrual based system, the better for proper appreciation of the implications of the financial liabilities of

05:11the government, instead of hiding in the cash-based system. That is what I tried to explain.

05:16Right. So you also talk about how CAG not only focuses on checking the compliance, but also the

05:22performance of any policy or any project. How much percentage of that effort goes into place? Because

05:30a government can actually, you know, allocate XYZ crores of rupees for a project, but it may not be

05:35efficient. That's a very good question. See CAG should come out with these details in what they print,

05:43what are called the annual performance reports or activity reports. How much of the resources,

05:48how much of the time is spent in say different types of audits. It is not coming out in with such

05:55regularity and with such detail, say as happens in say developed countries like USA or UK. Their reports

06:02not only give those details, but also say what is the value in terms of monetary value that their audit

06:09efforts have contributed in terms of savings or in terms of, you know, finding unnecessary expenditure,

06:17wasteful expenditure. All this also is reflected in their reports. So CAG's reports don't really give it

06:23in a regular manner. So, but your question still remains. The emphasis more is on compliance audit.

06:29Compliance is, it is a regular, whether compliance with rules and regulations, whether money has been

06:35properly spent, the voucher is there or not, rules have been followed or not. It doesn't deal with

06:40the soundness of the policy or the implementation and outcomes, whether they have been delivered or

06:46not in the measure expected. So, efforts are more on compliance audit. And to some extent, my feeling is,

06:54at least during my time when I was in the service, I think not even 20% time was spent on performance

07:00audits. Gradually, I think that must have increased now to maybe 30-40%. You also touched upon the

07:08fodder scam in Bihar. And you specifically mentioned the two courageous IS officers and I would like to name

07:14them here, PK Mukhopadhyay and Nand Lal Samghal. They were actually intimidated. A lot of obstructions

07:22were placed in their path. How rampant is this kind of a hostile environment in our country?

07:28No, that is now history. Much water has flown down the Ganges. So, I will come to the point that you have

07:34raised about the current situation and what CAG's audit teams may be facing in terms of non-cooperation or,

07:41you know, or other, if you are trying to see some sort of a difficult atmosphere during the audit.

07:51See, audit is not a welcome activity as far as the oddity is concerned. No oddity, very few oddities

07:59would like to welcome audit with open hands, especially an external independent audit like CAG's.

08:05So, it is an occupational hazard. We have been living with it. And at the highest levels of the

08:12government, nobody says don't cooperate with audit. So, they will definitely pass the instruction.

08:18They will, in their conference speeches and from other instructions, they do support CAG's audit in

08:25principle. But the point, as you rightly said, is what happens in the field, in execution, real audit teams,

08:30what do they face? How do they tackle? Yes, one has to admit that the records come reluctantly.

08:37Records come very late. Important records may not come in time and very little time is given to the

08:44audit team because they have, they work under constraints of time, 15 days or 30 days or whatever,

08:48depending on the subject. So, they have to finish that audit. So, the back end of the time of the, of

08:53their audit, if they are given some records, they cannot examine properly. And the, the audit team may

08:59escape detailed scrutiny, which is perhaps, suiting them in one way, you know. So, that sort of things

09:05is historically there. It is not that it is there in 10 years back and it is not there now. It will

09:11continue to be there, I feel. And some ways have to be found at higher levels of the audit department and

09:17higher levels of the audit department, some regular interactions. We have got what are called

09:22entrance meetings, we have got exit meetings, especially in performance audits. So, those

09:28meetings are supposed to take care of these hurdles. In the UPA government, you also write in your book,

09:35when there was an investigation audit happening around the coal allocation scam, the auditors were

09:42actually placed in a stinking room nearby a toilet. I mean, if it is happening at the ministry level,

09:49don't you think that there is, there is a systemic issue and needs to be addressed in a different manner?

09:57See, that particular incident, we should contextualize it. See, what was the, when was the, see,

10:05this coal report being prepared? You know, it was 2011-12, during that time, you see. And what was

10:12that period? You know, it was preceded by a very sensational report of CAG on 2G spectrum allocation.

10:19Then there was also a Commonwealth Games report in 2010 and 11. You know, these two years were very

10:24crucial. And the government at the highest levels was under pressure, both from the media, public,

10:30and the rival political parties. And one thing, let me tell you, let me tell you. See, CAG reports are

10:35exploited by all political parties. Who is in power, who is not in power, doesn't matter. Those in power will

10:42provide it to their advantage, pointing out the opposition's faults. And opposition points out the

10:47fault of the ruling party. That has been happening across, across the decades. It's not new. So,

10:53with this background, if, what is, what, what can we expect from the audit in the ministry? The

11:00ministry and the lower level functionaries, they are supposed to be taking care of these audit

11:05requirements. The joint secretaries and above, this is not a day-to-day matter. They have other urgent

11:10matters to tackle. And they would leave it to their subordinate officers to manage, if I may use

11:15the word, to manage the audit deck. So, they did it in their own way. And see, the other point is,

11:21in ministry those days, space has been a constraint. See, even joint secretaries used to fight for

11:27better rooms, probably with toilets attached, which were very few. And the toilets were definitely

11:32stinking all across ministries, not only the school ministry. So, unfortunately, for the audit team,

11:39it's happened to be a room, which was adjacent to a stinking toilet. And that caused quite a bit of

11:44discomfort to the audit team at that point of time. That is what I tried to highlight. It's not,

11:48maybe it is, these toilets are better now, they may not be stinking. And audit teams may have been

11:53given a little better rooms these days. And see, the audit teams also should take it up with the

11:57higher authorities, if they are so inconvenienced. The concerned, the director or the head of the team,

12:04they should meet the joint secretary and raise these points. But unfortunately, on both sides,

12:09it didn't happen. And they neglected and the team had to suffer. That is what I was trying to highlight.

12:14The former Prime Minister of the country, Manmohan Singh, in parliament, gave a few arguments,

12:19and you speak about that in your book. So, how do you substantiate when the Prime Minister of the

12:23country speaks in parliament that, no, this is not something which we can go with, the state governments

12:30are opposing. And if we go ahead with this, it may be an undemocratic process. But there were

12:35discussions which were taking place. So, there was a lot of delay in the discussion and actually

12:39implementing these policies on the ground. See, the point of CAG, whatever CAG wrote,

12:46emanated from the policy file which was produced to the audit team, again by accident, as I mentioned

12:52in the report. So, that file clearly says, and all that evidence has been produced in the audit

12:57report of CAG were bidding. So, there was a chance for the government to introduce auctions.

13:05But then, they have obtained the law ministry's opinion also. Law ministry favored that it can be

13:10done through ordinance. But then, in their wisdom, they have decided that ordinance may not be the route.

13:15They will take the normal statutory route and bring in a law and amendment. For that amendment,

13:20the government stand was, we need to consult state governments, a time-consuming process,

13:25and it's not so politically feasible. And so, it took time. Hence, we delayed and we brought it in 2010.

13:31See, ultimately, the policy was initiated and maybe post-haste because of the CAG's already

13:40report available in the public domain by that time. So, ultimately, see, the government did introduce

13:46the auctions through a proper amendment of the Act. And that happened in 2015, the first auctions.

13:55And as you may be aware, you know, about 35 or 36 coal blocks, they are supposed to have the capacity

14:02to potential to realize or contribute 1.95 lakh crores over the lifetime of those particular blocks,

14:09which is matching with the figure that CAG brought out in his report on the earlier period.

14:15When you talk about integrating AI in CAG, how does India compare to the other countries? Of course,

14:22there is a lot of data crunching that AI can help CAG with. But apart from that, we can also look at

14:28anomalies and patterns, which you point out in your book. So, how efficient the entire process can be?

14:34How soon can we get there? And of course, if you can give a comparison?

14:38See, from the limited research I tried to do while attempting this chapter in my book,

14:44I found that even small countries like Estonia, they are way ahead in terms of actual execution

14:53and delivery of the positive impact of use of data analytics, big data, and even artificial intelligence.

15:00The USA and National Audit Office, the GAO Government Accountability Office in USA and National Audit Office

15:10in UK have also progressed much beyond, beyond our efforts. We are also learning from their efforts

15:17and we have a strategy, we have a framework, we have done some pilot studies. That is, what is available in

15:23the publications of CAG, they are available in the public domain. And CAG has also come with a strategy,

15:29what they are expected to do, what are they planning to do in their, I mentioned a little while ago,

15:34in the press brief in September 2025. That is available in the public domain. I don't have access to

15:39more than what is available in public domain. So, my conclusion, if I want to summarize, I would say

15:44that India is a little behind, quite way behind, maybe two to five years behind in this process.

15:53And at least now they have realized that they have to emphasize not only giving presentations,

15:58papers and conferences and doing pilot studies, but to escalate it to a little higher and a better

16:05level of actual delivery of the outcomes of these initiatives. And in order to reach there,

16:11we will also have to train the officials to get their hands on AI. Absolutely. See, one of the,

16:17one of the problems with the CAG's audit is, it is post facto. Some reports come five years,

16:23four years after the events have happened and they have no utility either for mid-course corrections or

16:30improvements. They are only fault finding. That is one of the major grudge of grievance against the CAG

16:36from the executive department. I have also worked on the executive as a joint secretary in the government

16:40of India over five years. So, what they would look, the executive would look is some pat on the back,

16:47some good things that CAG has noticed in its audits. They should come upfront and also disclose and

16:52indicate that in the report. One is delay. They don't report the good things. And you know,

16:57lot of, even if replies are given, we say the fact remains that and we don't consider the replace properly.

17:04So, obviously, there will be quite a bit of friction and the resistance to produce and cooperate with the CAG

17:11audits. So, basically, the recommendations are given by CAG, but it's not often that we see that

17:17any action has been taken on those recommendations. In my earlier two books, in fact, you know,

17:22after that first book on which we spoke, I came out with a second book. It is called CAG,

17:27what it ought to be auditing. See, in that I have raised very basic questions on what happened to

17:35all those reports, type of reports which used to come in 2010, 11, 12 and all that. After that,

17:41we don't hear and the media has been asking me also, since I have written a couple of books,

17:46why this is happening. So, that book was an attempt to suggest what areas CAG should examine. For example,

17:51there are very many all India performance audit topics, social welfare schemes where thousands of

17:57crores have been spent every year and their outcomes are not analyzed properly, their concept

18:04are not examined, the assumptions behind the scheme, the monitoring methodology, the role of the

18:10government of India ministry is not examined. We don't have the concepts of all India performance

18:15audits in the way it used to be about 10-12 years back now. See, we are only concentrating on

18:20outcome audits, that is, what is happening to the states. We will, if we can choose some states

18:26and say that what is happening in those states, we will report and say this has not been achieved,

18:30money has been sent to them. But what is the mistake or what is the lack, you know,

18:34what is the deficiency of the ministry in government of India which has, which has made these schemes in

18:40the first, some schemes are made in a hurry. There are hundreds of schemes have been announced

18:45and most of them in a hurry. So that aspect, what went wrong in the conceptualizing, the laying down

18:53the process, procedure, monitoring, where are the dashboards, where are the actual outcomes. No outcome

18:59surveys independently has been done, except from CAG does occasionally. So these problems continue to remain.

19:05So what is the solution of that, if I may ask you? The solution for that is, you know, CAG has to concentrate

19:13on all India performance audits, number one. That is, examine the policies and the assumptions behind

19:20the policies, deficiencies in policies and, you know, in monitoring those policies without

19:25consulting state government. CAG is an establishment, an old establishment. It has got more than 22

19:31secretary, additional secretary level officers to guide and advise the CAG, though it's a single

19:36member led institution. And we have got very bright, exceptionally talented and well qualified and

19:43very IT savvy personnel, right at various levels to take forward this concept. So they're not lacking in

19:53personnel or intelligence, capacity or ability. See, it's only somebody who has to take the initiative to

20:00advise that CAG that these are the things which should be done. So that is probably where nobody is

20:06probably belling the cat. So we don't know the internal procedures, how they have evolved, but what

20:11little I remember and I know there is a senior management and in that senior management mostly it

20:17is monitoring. So it depends on the confidence that I generate in the CAG that I can take some new

20:23subjects and tell. But unfortunately, my tenure as deputy CAG is hardly one year or not even two years.

20:29So the CAG's tenure is six years. So we have to develop that matching compatibility and you know

20:37confidence in each other and then identify some subjects. Definitely the senior management is doing

20:42its best, but then maybe it is not in their priority. I don't know. All India performance

20:47of it should not be abandoned. That is my wish. Sir, in your book you also talk about

20:54blockchain implementation. If that can be done, it will be even more transparent. This is something

21:00which is unerasable. Talk to us a little bit about how blockchain can be included in the operations of CAG.

21:06See, I have tried to explain blockchain in a very simple manner because that is still an evolving

21:13subject and it has people confuse blockchain with cryptocurrency and cryptocurrency generates a lot

21:20of should I say skepticism, some sort of a fear and even government at highest levels have not yet decided

21:27whether we should accept that. So blockchain isolated from cryptocurrency is what I am trying to attempt at.

21:32But then where are the international experiences happenings in the area of blockchain technology?

21:39Everybody is talking, not even advanced countries are using it in a large way. And our data, our spread,

21:45geographical spread is such that, you know, we need to use the blockchain technology. I think CAG

21:50connect a project with CAG has announced in 2025, we will take into account artificial intelligence,

21:57definitely big data, data analytics, and probably they will also dabble with what can be done in blockchain.

22:03But that requires a lot of effort, planning and courage and confidence. No, the senior management

22:09in CAG will not think five years or 10 years ahead, I feel. Wish they do that. And we have younger

22:15officers, bright officers who should be trained in these developing fields and then they should come and guide and

22:21then take the concept forward in some committee, you know, for senior officers and all that. Probably they are working at it,

22:27but we are not aware. How do we ensure that there is self-accountability in CAG? Because you talk to

22:34us in the book about the 2024 incident where there was a complaint against CAG officials

22:42and their conduct in a foreign mission. So how do we ensure that the people inside of CAG, the officers

22:51are not corrupt and how do we maintain that self-accountability? See CAG has got a well-established

22:57system of monitoring the integrity. There is a, there is a concept of, there is a declared

23:06a vigilance officer who has to monitor and all rules of the government of India in terms of

23:12vigilance, integrity or procedures are there. This was just an aberration. I wish it was an aberration.

23:20And belatedly though, the CAG found a way that that delinquent official, at least they, they considered

23:28him as delinquent a little belatedly. He was called back from his foreign posting and he was suspended.

23:33Some enquiry was also instituted. But it was delayed for some time.

23:39Yes, it was delayed, yes. Unfortunately, and everybody knew about it in the CAG. Even senior

23:44management was upset. A lot of letters here and there, emails, WhatsApp messages were exchanged.

23:49It came into the media also. So why I mentioned about that incident was, that was, I think, perhaps

23:57one of the saddest in my view and in view of many serving and retired officers. Many serving officers

24:05have expressed anguish, concern and deep, what should I say, concern actually about these events. And they

24:12could not do much. That was unfortunate. See, the CAG is a single person driven organization. And the senior

24:18management may have been constrained. They tried, some of them have tried. In fact, there is evidence in

24:24public domain. But ultimately, luckily, you know, good sense prevailed. And you know, that has been,

24:30that person has been called back. We don't know what the merits of the case, what is the

24:35allegation, how far they are correct and what happened and all that's part of investigation,

24:38it's not in public domain. But the allegations were there, he was called back, inquiry was made,

24:43he was suspended. And what happened, we are not aware. Are you planning to write another book on this

24:49topic? Should we anticipate more books coming out? Yes, see, I have these ideas, these books cannot

24:56happen in just one year or two years. These have been there in my mind for the last five or six years.

25:01In fact, I have two more books in the pipeline. One would be, what ails the India's medical education

25:08system. That is because I was fortunate to have been associated with the Oversight Committee on

25:14Medical Council of India in 2016-17 for about one year. So, that subject interested me and I kept

25:22researching and following it up. So, on that, I am coming out with a book maybe a month or two.

25:28Then, I had worked as a Joint Secretary in the Ministry of Micro, Small and Medium Enterprises for

25:33about five years. That was also some time back. So, what ails the India's MSME ecosystem and startup

25:40system is one subject which is dear to my heart. I am trying to bring out another book on that maybe

25:45in the next six months. These are the two books I am. Great, sir. Looking forward for these meetings

25:51also. Yeah. Thank you so much once again, sir, for speaking with Teshanet News and hope to connect with

25:57you soon. Thank you and I appreciate you have read my book. Thank you. Yes, sir. It was quite interesting.

26:05I tried to skim through it so that we can have a meaningful conversation and get something out of it.

26:09Thank you so much. Thank you so much once again.

Manmohan Singh Govt Pressured CAG During ‘Coalgate’ Audit? | Ex-CAG P. Sesh Kumar EXCLUSIVE

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