- 2 months ago
Tamika D. Mallory and Amanda Seales want the Black community to understand now is the time to strategize, mobilize, and organize.
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00:00:00Well, here we are in these COVID times. I would love to be there with you in person having this
00:00:11conversation. Nonetheless, it is such an honor to be here with my friend, Miss Tamika Mallory.
00:00:17My name is Amanda Seals. I'm a comedian. I'm a common sense specialist and a host of other things.
00:00:30Angela Rye likes to say I'm a philosopher. I'll own it. We are here with Tamika, who is an activist,
00:00:38a beacon for change, an organizer, and a truth yeller. You're not a truth teller,
00:00:45you're a truth yeller because at this point, it's like the volume and the amplification
00:00:51is necessary and it's being heard worldwide. I wanted you to just first, for those who may not
00:00:59be aware of the work you're doing, give some insight into how you got to be these things.
00:01:05I think a lot of folks think they are activists or organizers or truth yellers, but they may not
00:01:13really know that. And you are a shining example of that. So if you would just indulge us with some
00:01:20past, present, and future of Tamika Mallory. Well, thank you, Amanda. And I'm happy to be
00:01:26having this conversation with you. We talk to each other all the time when we're screaming, cursing,
00:01:32yelling at the world. And I'm often able to find common sense in speaking with you in those conversations
00:01:42that we have when things are really, really challenging. So I love that Afropunk has paired
00:01:49us up together. And I'm really grateful for the opportunity to be with you and on this platform
00:01:55this afternoon, evening, day, whatever time it is, wherever we are, whatever day we're on.
00:02:02You know, my parents were activists from the beginning of my life. I don't remember a time
00:02:10when something about community engagement wasn't a part of our daily living. And when I say daily,
00:02:18I really do mean daily. On Mondays, we went to the precinct council meeting. My parents were,
00:02:26you know, they were on the community board planning something committee within the projects that we
00:02:33lived in. So we had those meetings downstairs in the basement. We helped to give out the
00:02:39cheese and peanut butter once a month, you know, in the, in the projects, we went to church on Sunday,
00:02:49Saturdays, we went to rallies. Every single day, we had something going on. You know, we were,
00:02:57we went to the mosque, we went to anything that had to do with the upliftment of Black people. That's just
00:03:03how we live. And I was a very young kid who hated it, every bit of it. In fact, I used to say I was
00:03:11cursed. Like, how did I get these parents? Because of course, some of the other friends that I had,
00:03:17you know, I watched them going bowling, hanging out, chasing boys, doing like all the things. And I was
00:03:24watching like paid and full on TV and, you know, all the movies. And, and, and I was like, you know,
00:03:30I want to do that. Like, I want to wear bamboo earrings. And I want to hang out with the fast
00:03:36talkers and, you know, and, and, and have, you know, and be sexy or what I thought at that time
00:03:41was sexy. Um, and so I felt cursed by this, um, this space that I was in. And I used to say all the
00:03:49time, like, why do I have to be around the people that are wearing dashikis with like the bone coming
00:03:55out of their ear. And meanwhile, everybody else is in 5411 Reeboks. I just don't understand how
00:04:02this became my life. And, um, you know, over time I started to understand more and more about
00:04:11little elements of the movement and sort of what my parents were trying to teach me, but I was so busy
00:04:17rebelling against it that I became a runaway. So somewhere around 12, 13 years old, it was in me.
00:04:24I knew there were problems in our society. And I think that was, it was a couple of years after
00:04:30the central park five incident happened, the tragedy that took place there in New York city.
00:04:37And so I was aware that the color of your skin could literally get you killed. I knew that,
00:04:43but I did not want to face it or have it to be a part of my reality every day. And so I started running
00:04:50away from home. Um, if my sister was here, she would say, that's not why you run away. You just
00:04:55was a fast ass. That's what, you know, that's what it was. But I think, you know, as I reflect,
00:05:00I was all, I was sort of running away from my calling, even at a very, very young age. Um, I was
00:05:07always very, very talkative, you know, me, you and I, when we get on the phone, it's like, okay, wait,
00:05:12let me sit. Okay. You, you go, you go, you go, you know, I was always very talkative, but because
00:05:18of that, it got me in a lot of trouble in school. It had me sort of classified as being the chatter
00:05:25girl. You know, everything you talk too much. And my parents, because they're trying to work and,
00:05:29um, you know, do what they have to do. And every time you turn around, the school is calling,
00:05:33the principal was calling, I'm on, I'm on punishment, all these things. My parents also,
00:05:38my mother, she used to be like, your mouth is going to get you in trouble. And it has,
00:05:42but it got me in a lot of good trouble. Um, and I think, you know, if any message that I would ever
00:05:48have for parents is that when you see in a young person, things that might be frustrating, um,
00:05:55things that you may not necessarily understand, rather than trying to suppress it for your own
00:06:01convenience, most of the time, you actually have to look at helping to nurture those skills,
00:06:07because those could be the things and that particular really, really annoying talk too
00:06:12much child could be the one to help change the world. So, you know, it's been a journey,
00:06:17as I said, they were involved. And I guess the last piece I will say is when my son's father was
00:06:22murdered, um, that became the moment when everything that my parents have been teaching
00:06:27me, cause you know, they say if you train a child up, they will, even though they depart,
00:06:31they will come back to the knowledge, the understanding to sort of come back home.
00:06:36And so even though I was in the world of the world at that time when he was killed and I had this baby
00:06:43and I was sitting silently with myself, it became clear to me that there was a direct correlation
00:06:50between poverty and circumstances that our communities deal with and his murder and, you know,
00:06:56what took place. His parents were perpetual drug abusers. They were in and out of prison.
00:07:01And in fact, when I met him, his mother was in prison. And so even though he had great family,
00:07:06grandma, you know, people helping grandparents, other loved ones, he always had a sort of like an
00:07:14orphan feel to him. Like he felt like he just didn't have a home. He had no place. Nobody loved
00:07:20him like his mother and father could love him. And as a result, it ended up being the catalyst for his
00:07:27demise. And so, uh, you know, a lot of things went into the person that you see today, but there was
00:07:34a moment when I decided it was time for me to really dedicate myself to the calling that I knew God had
00:07:39on my life. I think it's always for, well, I think for a lot of people, the concept of a calling seems
00:07:49almost, you know, like some woo woo shit, you know, um, like, what you mean? Like, like, it was like Moses,
00:07:57like it came down to you, like, but you know, I think what it, what it ends up really being is just,
00:08:05it's, it doesn't come from outside of you. It comes from, from within you. It was always there,
00:08:10you know, and you just like, you, you mentioned something about stillness
00:08:13and getting still enough to be able to hear, you know, this voice that spoke to you and just kind of
00:08:19made everything make sense. Now you are somebody who, I mean, I think both of us really try our best
00:08:27to try to wake up that voice in, in people, you know, as well, right? Like, how do you, it's like,
00:08:35it's like, I know that everybody has that voice in them, but how they wait, how they, you know,
00:08:41turn it on is, is their own function. And something that I want to find out from you is,
00:08:49you know, we're at a time now where just specifically around the election,
00:08:54there's a lot of apathy that's being expressed as advocacy. I think there's a lot of folks who
00:09:00are presenting a desire to not do anything as action. Um, and I think, you know, for what it's
00:09:09worth from what I understand of your messaging, whether it's about the election, whether it's
00:09:14about, you know, defunding the police, whether it's about, you know, and when I say the election,
00:09:20I don't just mean about the president. I mean, you know, the election of our, like of our officials,
00:09:24like for all down to the DA, Daniel Cameron is an elected official. Um, what, what do you think are
00:09:39what do you think have been useful methods to awakening folks who have succumbed to the apathy
00:09:47that the powers that be would love to see us get stuck in? You know, what has been an effective
00:09:56message? First of all, I think it's how you, it's not just what you say, but it's also how you approach
00:10:02people. Um, and by that, I mean, it's one thing to talk to people online. It's one thing to, um,
00:10:12you know, sort of, uh, you know, have your thought leader convos. And of course we, we have multimedia
00:10:19that we use every single day to get our messaging, but it's something else to meet people on the ground
00:10:25where they are. And that's the work that I do every day, actually going to the streets and in the
00:10:30community building with our brothers and sisters who are actually living the struggle because oftentimes
00:10:37we think that just because we have some, um, academic knowledge about issues and to some degree,
00:10:45we've sort of lived at one time through some of the circumstances that we see happening, um, you know,
00:10:51to a certain segment of our, our, our, uh, community. We believe that it makes us a, an expert,
00:11:00if you will, on the issue. So we think that, oh, yeah, I read these books or, you know,
00:11:05I lived in a projects when I was a kid or, you know, I was poor one time. And so now I should be able
00:11:11to step to the front and lead a dialogue, um, based upon some far, you know, far reaching,
00:11:17uh, relationship to, to the issues. I think, I, I think my organizing model and until freedom,
00:11:26my organization's organizing model is to turn that upside down, that the people who are most impacted
00:11:34by the issues have to be at the forefront of the conversation. And when people see that,
00:11:38when they see that they are actually at the center and that our job is really to be there to help guide,
00:11:45to bring some awareness and to amplify their voices, they're more willing to say,
00:11:51maybe I should participate in this particular election because now I understand the issues
00:11:58through my prism, not through the eyes of somebody who sort of pushing, forcing down a message,
00:12:04but instead the message is coming from the bottom up. And I think that has been really effective
00:12:10because so long as you're in relationship with people and you're sitting and you're actually
00:12:14talking with them, they're generally more willing to move on an issue. Um, and then I think it's
00:12:21about connecting the dots, right? When Daniel camera me, I think that the current administration,
00:12:29they do such a good job. I call them my co-organizers because every day, all I have to
00:12:34do is get up in the morning, look at what they're doing. And then I'm ready to hit the streets. I got
00:12:40talking points. I have a fired up audience. I have all the things that I need and they're actually
00:12:46causing that outrage based upon the shit that they do every single day. So Daniel Cameron is,
00:12:53is he was a co-organizer for me. He continues to be a co-organizer in that now I can go out and
00:13:00cause I was struggling. I'm not gonna lie to you. I was struggling with my message about this election.
00:13:05Cause I ain't all that happy about the choices that we have at this moment either, such as, you
00:13:10know, same, same as you. Um, and so I was struggling, I was trying to figure out, I know it's
00:13:15the, I know we have to vote. I know that we, we must participate in not just this election,
00:13:20but every single election. And that if we stay home, we'll miss the opportunity to vote down the ballot
00:13:26where there's some really, really critical, uh, local politics that have to, that has to be, uh, answered
00:13:32for. And so I knew that I knew all those things, but I didn't know exactly how to put it all in,
00:13:38like tie it up with a bow and present it to the, the, the, those, like you said, the apathetic folks
00:13:45who are just like, I ain't dealing with it. I'm tired of it. Enough is enough. That's it.
00:13:49And then Daniel Cameron goes and, um, and, and, and, and I was going to use some F bomb words,
00:13:56so I got to get better for Afro punk, but you know, he went and did what he did. He went and,
00:14:02um, and, and disrespected all of us as black folks, as black women, and particularly Brianna Taylor's
00:14:13family. And then I had a message because now my co-organizer presented me with a case study.
00:14:20So I could turn to the community and say, elections have consequences. This guy was not
00:14:26disappointed. He was elected into office, which means that if we had elected someone else,
00:14:33or if we elected him in a way, uh, and let, let me run this down real quick. If you just give me a
00:14:39second, or if we had participated in an overwhelming fashion where we would be able to go back and demand
00:14:47from him some level of respect, then we would be in a different position, right? Let me tell you why I
00:14:55say that because this is a case about law enforcement versus a black woman and her boyfriend in her
00:15:02apartment. That's the, that's what it will be boil it all down. Law enforcement on one hand,
00:15:07Brianna Taylor and Kenny Walker. Well, Daniel Cameron in 2019, when he's accepting the nomination from the
00:15:17Fraternal Order of Police, which is the, the national, uh, union for police officers across the nation,
00:15:25we know how disrespectful and racist, uh, members of that union have been to our communities and to
00:15:33the families of countless people who've been killed unjustly by police. When he was accepting their
00:15:41endorsement, their endorsement, he said these words, not my words, it's his words. He said,
00:15:47I understand exactly what this endorsement means. I am to be a voice for law enforcement and advocate
00:15:56for law enforcement. So he's saying that standing flanked by several white men from the FOP. And he's,
00:16:06he's acknowledging what this endorsement means. So Daniel Cameron actually did his job. He did exactly
00:16:14what he said he was going to do. Well, the reason why we want to participate in these elections
00:16:21in every single election is so that we're flanking the candidate and the candidate knows that they have a
00:16:28responsibility back to our communities. But when we don't show force and, and we can talk about this
00:16:36later and show up after, so the day after inauguration, when they have a party in the white house or on the
00:16:45lawn on one day, the next day, we need to have a party in the streets with an agenda so that we can
00:16:53force these candidates who we voted for to do the job on behalf of our communities. I think that's the,
00:17:00that's the conversation that I've been having with apathetic folks around the country. And they're
00:17:05like, Oh, okay. So we still going to be in these streets. I'm like, yes, we're still going to be okay.
00:17:10All right. All right. Maybe I'll go, I'll go take care of my business. Yeah. I mean,
00:17:15I hear that, you know, and that, well, that's what makes you an organizer. And that's what makes me a
00:17:22philosopher. Uh, you are in the streets in a very real, authentic and, um, and for what it's worth,
00:17:32unapologetic way, you know, there are people who like to do crack and have commentary, et cetera,
00:17:37et cetera, but you can't argue with action. You just can't. And I think that's what I,
00:17:42and that's what I'm inspired by and admire about you so much is that there's a lot of talking that
00:17:48doesn't have walking associated with it. You know, it's real easy. It's just very easy to critique
00:17:55from the sidelines when you're not out there having to run the play, but when you're running these plays
00:18:01as an organizer, what are some of the challenges that you think hold us back as a black community
00:18:11from actually getting the ball across the line? I committed to that football analogy. Did you
00:18:16hear that? I committed to that. I ran that football analogy all the way. Getting it across the line.
00:18:23Okay.
00:18:29What is the strategy for getting it all the way across the line?
00:18:36Are you asking?
00:18:36No, what are some of the things that are holding us, well, what I was asking was,
00:18:41what do you think are some of the challenges?
00:18:43The challenges that keep us from getting it across the line?
00:18:46Yeah.
00:18:47Well, you know, the country, I was listening to Linda speak today.
00:18:53Let's speak earlier about-
00:18:54Tell us who Linda is.
00:18:56As I was about to say, Linda is my partner at Until Freedom. I forgot, I'm not just talking to
00:19:01my friend, we're talking to the Afropunk audience. Linda Sarsour is my partner at Until Freedom, one of
00:19:08the other co-founders. And I was listening to her talking about how this country has taught us
00:19:14individualism. It has taught us that it's every man for thyself, right? All about what you,
00:19:22what I get on what I got in my family, my street, my thing, me.
00:19:29This was my IT story this morning. Please.
00:19:34You then, yeah, what did you say? Because it was good. You said that it was a tweet. It was a tweet
00:19:40today that I thought was really powerful, where you said something about how we think we can go
00:19:49inside the system as one to try to fix something. It is only ego and money. It is only ego and money
00:19:59that convinces someone they can change a system from within that destroys everyone without.
00:20:08Facts. And that's so facts. So I think we're dealing with this whole individualism mindset
00:20:16that either with great intention, right? Like this whole conversation that's been happening with
00:20:23our brother Ice Cube with great intention, great intention. I don't know about all that.
00:20:32Well, I'm just going to say that I want to believe that there is great intention in terms of people
00:20:41trying to figure out how do I use what I have to try to, voila, I can get it done. I can fix it.
00:20:50I can, I can, huh? You said, voila, I just added magic. Yeah, voila, like I can do it,
00:20:58but it's never worked. It's never worked. And I had a conversation with somebody really close
00:21:05to the entire situation with our, with our brother. And I said, there's no amount of money
00:21:14that you could throw at a situ, a system that also says we're going to remove racial insensitivity
00:21:26training from all programs, all federally aided programs, because it's racist to teach people about
00:21:33racism. You can't throw money at that. You can't throw money at a system that is led by someone
00:21:43who tells the proud boys who are, who's a white supremacist group out here, literally terrorizing
00:21:49people on the streets to stand back and stand by. You can't throw money at that. You can't throw money
00:21:57at a, at, at, at an institute or at, at, yeah, at a, at a, I want to say you can't throw money at a
00:22:04problem and the leaders of the money, right. That's coming to the problem are people who would separate
00:22:13children at the border and put them in cages for months and months and months to where now they,
00:22:19they're in there infected with COVID and people are actually dying. You can't throw money at
00:22:25a poor sense of morality. Um, you just can't. There it is. And so there it is. The problem,
00:22:32the problem that we have is with this individualism concept is that if you don't take
00:22:42an entire collective of people with you that come from different experiences to try to have these
00:22:50conversations and these meetings and to force for change and push for change, then you lose because
00:22:59what we, what we know is that people will promise you millions and millions and billions and billions
00:23:06of dollars, but they still won't give you the justice and respect that you deserve because they
00:23:13believe and which, and, and I don't want to in any way minimize the importance of an economic plan that
00:23:20is strong enough for our communities to succeed. That is clearly important, but at the same time,
00:23:28there are other issues that have to be addressed as well and they cannot be done piecemeal. It has to
00:23:35all happen at the same time. If you go to meet with a candidate or meet with an institution that is
00:23:43unwilling to tell the police that are out here terrorizing protesters to stand back and stand down,
00:23:52then your conversation with them about some money. It's not connected. It's disconnected. So getting us
00:23:58across the finish line is going to have to mean, I saw, um, attorney Angelo Pinto, one of the other
00:24:05co-founders of until freedom, make a comment, um, on, on one of our other brothers pages where he says,
00:24:13before you meet with them, meet with us, not us, not us as in me, not us as in until freedom,
00:24:21you can choose whoever you want, but there must be a meeting. Yeah. It's got, there's got to be a
00:24:27meeting of the minds that includes all of us. Because the thing I know is that on one hand,
00:24:35they will tell you, well, we're going to give you money for your economic development programs.
00:24:40And then on the other hand, they're stacking the federal courts with all white conservatives who
00:24:48are locking our people up. So when you were there meeting with them, did you say that's got to stop?
00:24:54And they said, okay, we're committed to that as well. It just, it, it don't work.
00:25:00Well, the individualism, you know, I hear people say things like we've come so far,
00:25:06you know, black people have come so far, you know, like we, we, we, we got to stop all this
00:25:10complaining, you know, we, we've made headway. And I say, no, as individuals,
00:25:16some of us have made headway, but the institutions that black folks are existing within still continue
00:25:28to function in ways in which are deleterious to the community of black people as a whole,
00:25:35which makes the individual advancement somewhat irrelevant because that's really just that you,
00:25:41you manage to squeeze through a hole in the net. You know, like I just, I got lucky, you know,
00:25:46I got born at the right time to the right person in the right place. And they armed me with the things
00:25:51that I have been able to utilize to continue with the momentum that was given to me when I got here.
00:25:57Now that's how I got through the hole in the net, but there's been many other people
00:26:05who had those same things that they couldn't get through the hole in the net. You know, something
00:26:11held them back, something held them back that was systemic, something held them back that was
00:26:16institutionalized, something held them back that was built into the, to the framework, to the very
00:26:22fabric of this country. So we can't think about things as just our own personal gain or just my
00:26:28people, you know, or just my squad. And that's what concerns me as like one of the biggest challenges
00:26:35of the work that you're doing. I think so often people say, you know, you just got to mind your
00:26:40business. And that's why I try at the end of all of my shows. I tell people, remember we are each
00:26:45other's business. If I see something going on too, that's my business. I'm not going to walk away.
00:26:54You know, and it's, you know, I was going to say, I had to, cause you know, I've been having
00:27:01conversations about this whole idea of getting us across the finish line to your point. Um, and I was
00:27:11explaining how I live in Tamika Mallory. I live in two different worlds. On one hand, I'm friends
00:27:19with the who's who, and I'm respected among a bougie crowd of individuals. I, you know, I'm, I'm a part
00:27:27of the, the bougie society over here, um, and proud to be a part of it. And also, um, and, and a part of
00:27:36helping to push, uh, some of our people to get to the streets, to support the grassroots organizers
00:27:43and to be more involved. Um, and many of them actually call on me for that because we all,
00:27:49I think a lot of people are beginning to understand, I got to do more. I got to get in.
00:27:54So that's how some of the relationships that I have have developed. And I also, um, you know,
00:28:00because of, like you said, when we get some work, when they give us good work, we make a little bit
00:28:05a piece of change. And so thank God for that. So I live in a world where I understand the tax
00:28:12credits, you know, the tax benefits from this administration. And I understand a lot of the
00:28:19financial, um, uh, benefits to having a president in office who wants to make sure that people, uh,
00:28:27make some money and that the, and that the, the, what do you call it? The rich can get richer.
00:28:31So I understand that I get all of that, but I'm also on the streets at night being tear gas and
00:28:38people shooting rubber bullets at us and flash bangs and all types of things that, um, is happening
00:28:45to protesters and organizers and people who are on the street. And so I, to your point, I can't live
00:28:52my life. And, and, and maybe, maybe I need to invite more folks to actually see the experience of
00:28:59what is happening on the ground so that they can. Yes. So they can understand it firsthand because
00:29:06I'm not able to live my life based upon my bank account. When I understand that my people are
00:29:13suffering a very serious, uh, uh, uh, uh, level of tyranny on a daily basis, like this terrorism
00:29:22happening on the streets of America. And it is coming from, um, not just a, a, a Republican
00:29:29administration, cause you got democratic maze across this country who are unleashing, uh, the,
00:29:35the law enforcement on protest is like, they hate us. Like they literally are like, we hate you and we
00:29:41want you dead. That's, that's how they treat us on the streets. So I think we have to, we have to
00:29:48get into a mindset of saying, listen, it's nothing wrong with us focusing on all our issues at once.
00:29:55Yes. We want the economic advantages and yes, that will help to give us a form of equity in this
00:30:02country. And I want to be a part of that, but I cannot put my foot on the necks of those who are
00:30:08trying to get to, to stop us from being killed just because of the color of our skin. And I can tell
00:30:14you right now, there is no economic development plan that you can tell me right now will stop
00:30:22a racist police officer from pulling Ray Ray over and blowing his brains out right now.
00:30:27It just, it's not there. It doesn't exist. Well, because economics as it exists within the
00:30:35capitalism of the country we're in are just not tied to morals. It's not tied to values. And because of
00:30:42that they end up in this dichotomy, you know, that for what it's worth leaves behind the people.
00:30:50And I keep saying, you know, America at this point feels like a society of mediocrity and materialism.
00:30:57And I just wish we could make a concerted effort to move towards excellence and ethics. And excellence
00:31:07is not about simply just again, you know, wealth or accolades or status, you know, excellence is in
00:31:14being a good person. Like how can I be the best person possible today? You know, how can I, how can
00:31:20I get even better at my consciousness about things that are going on outside of me so that I can be,
00:31:25you know, um, a point of light as well as lightning in these spaces. But as also as a black woman,
00:31:33you know, we, we got a whole other set of things that we got to deal with in this process as simply
00:31:42just black women as, as black women in the media, as black women, you know, who are again, truth
00:31:49yellers. And, you know, we talk about it all the time where there's like a, there's this, there's
00:31:58just this added extra acid, um, that I feel like that's prone on to the, the anger about what you're
00:32:10doing, uh, because, because of your gender. And, um, let's just be clear in a very, very succinct
00:32:23fashion. People hate black women. And sometimes that includes even some of our black men. I would
00:32:31not ever say that, um, the majority of our, of black men hate black women because it would not be true.
00:32:37Um, I know too many black men who literally at the drop of a dime would give their lives for that
00:32:43black sister. They protect, love and support us. But there are some within our own community
00:32:49that hate black women. And we have a self hatred issue where black women have been taught hate so
00:32:56much that we actually perpetuate that against ourselves and our other sisters. And it's a real
00:33:02dangerous piece because it's the type of thing that makes people argue whether or not Meg the
00:33:11stallion would make up that somebody shot her. Like, I mean, I don't even, sometimes I get just,
00:33:17I have to do the woosah because the commentary is so asinine that I started this puzzle. Yeah.
00:33:27My thing is like, and I don't want to litigate this here, but unless Meg the stallion is crazy.
00:33:36And when I say crazy and I've actually sat at dinner with this young lady, I know her
00:33:41and she's actually very amazing. I don't know the other parties involved, so I can't say that they
00:33:46are or not. What I can say though, is that unless she is, she needs to be committed to a hospital
00:33:53even immediately. The idea that she would just make up that somebody shot her is ridiculous.
00:34:00And so when we sit there and argue that, well, we need to wait and see the facts, but then we don't
00:34:06like when a person is shot and killed by the police and then white folks and other black people say
00:34:13things like, well, we need to wait and see. We don't like that. But yet, and still we want to do it
00:34:19to our system. It don't make sense. Well, you know, Tamika, you know,
00:34:25some people hate black women more than they hate white supremacy. You said that. I saw that in your
00:34:31philosophy box. Yes. Well, it's just because it's true because, you know, for what it's worth,
00:34:40black women just in our, especially black women who are in a concerted pursuit of wellness and self-care
00:34:51are actively dismantling patriarchy every day. And there's a lot of folks that unfortunately base
00:35:01their liberation on access to patriarchy, you know, and they fail to see that, you know,
00:35:10patriarchy is still a white man's, it's a white man's blueprint. It's not made for everybody,
00:35:20you know, and in order for the temples of patriarchy and the pillars of patriarchy to stand,
00:35:24people have to hold it up. And so a lot of folks continue to do that in the hopes that,
00:35:29you know, they will gain access to that patriarchy. And, and for what it's worth, I think,
00:35:35I think for a lot of folks, the goal for them is to be able to oppress as their oppressor.
00:35:43And when you are,
00:35:48when you are out here and you're speaking so confidently and with conviction and you're not
00:35:52saying, you know, I think you're not saying like, you know, I feel, you know, maybe you're not exerting
00:35:59any level of self doubt. It is jarring to people like how the hell she thinks she is to know something.
00:36:09Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely.
00:36:16And they actually, I mean, people, people actually write me that have never met me in my life. And I
00:36:23know they do the same. And they literally tell me, I need to shut up. I don't know what I'm talking
00:36:29about. You know, like you said, who do you think you are? And they feel like they're reading me,
00:36:35you know, and it's interesting because after the last, um, the, after the speech that I've made
00:36:44in Kentucky, uh, you know, when we learned that the attorney general age, am I supposed to, yeah,
00:36:50we cursed already. Right. So when we learned that the attorney general ain't shit, um,
00:36:55there were some people who called me and they said, well, you know, I'm just a little concerned
00:36:59because your words were really harsh and it was kind of strong and, you know, and, and, and maybe
00:37:05those weren't the right words to use. And then it came out that he actually never presented charges
00:37:14um, in regards to Brianna to the grand jury one and two that he lied at the press conference and
00:37:21said that the grand jury agreed with the decision not to indict the officers. And then the grand
00:37:26jurors are saying, Hey, no, no, we want to talk because we don't like this storyline, this narrative
00:37:32that you're trying to give to the public. People start those same people. They call me back and they
00:37:38said that sell out so-and-so size. This is what I was telling you. The, this is what I was telling
00:37:45you. And it happened to be three black men that had this conversation with me who called me back
00:37:51and said, you know what, sis, you're right. And that's why I'm saying that there's so much love,
00:37:56um, that we, that we do receive from our black men because they were, they didn't have a problem
00:38:00saying, yo, you were right. But they started out doubting whether or not I was making the right
00:38:06move by speaking truth to power or yelling truth to power to your point. And I feel like if more
00:38:13people trusted black women from the gate, trusted our voices, trusted our instincts, we would be able
00:38:21to get across that finish line a little bit quicker because we black women, we, because black women
00:38:30are actually the experts at, uh, uh, at collective organizing. That's what we do. So if the problem
00:38:38that we're experiencing is an individualism mindset, then putting certain types of black women at the
00:38:45forefront of the movement can help to address that because what we do every day is worry about how we
00:38:52bring everybody on our back. I've had three brothers in the last 24 hours tell me that they
00:39:05are just frustrated with their fellow brothers. Um, you know, and just expressing to me that they really
00:39:14understand that it's going to be black women who lead the charge and that, and basically like
00:39:22apologizing for putting it on our backs again, you know, and they were just saying that they just,
00:39:31they just feel like there's still an ego driven leadership amongst their brotherhood that puts,
00:39:39um, value on having, you know, ego stroked by, by any means necessary versus, you know, the,
00:39:50the inconvenient truths that end up calling for, for other actions and other outcomes. And so to your
00:39:58point, like the love is there, like hearing that from them and, you know, just the acknowledgement and
00:40:02the accountability, it does make you feel like, okay, like there's work to be done,
00:40:09but it's not, we're not just in a vacuum. Um, but beyond uniting more consistently, not just as,
00:40:19you know, men and women, but just black folks in general, because I think there's also this,
00:40:24I personally think, you know, there's this very ideological view we have of what the black community is.
00:40:30Like, we really think there's like a whole black community and it's like,
00:40:38there's a lot of splinters.
00:40:39There's, and there's a lot of folks, there's a lot of folks that have very specific guidelines
00:40:47around who is black and what is black. And, you know, that, that is very, that's varied
00:40:56amongst what I think a lot of outsiders would call a cohesive community. What do you think, or how do you think
00:41:03we can create equitable change within
00:41:16and specifically our activist structure structures? Because for all intents and purposes,
00:41:21you know, there's different versions of activism.
00:41:22Oh, absolutely.
00:41:24And organizing.
00:41:30It's a tough question to answer, right? And probably something that I need to
00:41:36think more about myself. I will say though, that we have to be, like you said, more flexible
00:41:46in our understanding of all the different elements of our communities, right? And how those things come
00:41:52together. We can't say that we are a movement for black lives or a movement that cares about black
00:41:59lives, except black trans people. We can't say that. We can't do that. We have to make room for
00:42:06black trans people, not at the back of the line, not to decide, not squeezing in, but at the front,
00:42:12on the front line with the rest of us, because, you know, that community deserves just as much as
00:42:19anyone else to live and not to be killed just because they're trans, just because they're black.
00:42:24And so that has to happen. We can't throw our elders out. We can't say, well, this is a new
00:42:31movement and we don't do it the way they used to do it. And therefore, you know, we will somehow,
00:42:40you know, do away with the wisdom that our elders bring to the table.
00:42:45We can't say that because a woman works on a stripper pole at night that she doesn't deserve
00:42:52or is too ratchet or whatever we want to call it to show up at the meeting tomorrow and care
00:42:58about our community. Doesn't make any sense to me at all that there is this ideology, if you will,
00:43:05that Cardi B just because, uh, and, and also, and, and Meg the stallion that just because, uh, they got
00:43:11a song named WAP or, you know, they are, they are, you know, pretty explicit in their, in their, uh,
00:43:18entertainment for sure, that they can't also care about education, that they can't also care about
00:43:24like what's going on in their communities. We've got to make room for everybody to get to the table.
00:43:31What we do not have to accommodate, and perhaps this is in my own, um, naive, naivety, naivety
00:43:39that I need to work on. But I, I think you will agree is I don't have to sit at the table with
00:43:45somebody who is completely anti everything that I stand for, whether they black, white, or, or not.
00:43:51Right. So I'm not sitting at the table trying to work with Candace Owens and Daniel Cameron.
00:43:59I'm just not going to do that because it's a waste of my time to have to, I'm that, that would force it.
00:44:05It doesn't mean I wish you bad. It doesn't mean that, um, I hate you. It doesn't mean any of that.
00:44:11It just means that the direction that we're traveling in, we've got to be on the same page,
00:44:17that the way to get there can't be loving up on our oppressors that I can't do.
00:44:25So I think it's never worked. Huh? It's never worked.
00:44:31It's never worked. It's never worked. It's a waste of time. And it's almost like when you're in a
00:44:37meeting and you're trying to sit down with everybody, everybody's at the table. You got to look around and
00:44:45decide who's the ops, you know, who are the people here that you can't trust? Who are the ones going
00:44:51back? Who's the FBI in the room? You know, you got to know those things, right? Harry Belafonte talks
00:44:57about the fact that his therapist was an agent sitting, meeting with him, um, getting information
00:45:05from his heart, mind, body, and soul, and taking it back to be used against them in the freedom struggle.
00:45:11So we can't just decide that every single person should be at the table. But what we also have to
00:45:18be very mindful of is creating spaces that are elitist in nature, in nature, and don't allow Ray Ray
00:45:26an opportunity to come to the table and describe for himself, as we talked about earlier, his issues
00:45:33and the way and the paths forward from his perspective. And so I think that's a part of
00:45:39creating a more equitable space. Um, it, it, it has to do with us being more intersectional,
00:45:46not just outside our community, meaning that black folks and white folks and Asian folks and everybody
00:45:52can work together, but it also has to mean that intersectionality of thought and, and, and purpose
00:45:58within our community is welcome at the table so that we can grow and be a powerful, strong force,
00:46:05because more of us together is going to give us sustainability in this movement. You burn out when
00:46:12there's just a few people on the ground every single time. And just in my situation, I can't,
00:46:18you know, I couldn't even, I could not even get through without getting in trouble, naming the younger
00:46:24people that I'm mentoring and working with and walking with and talking with and trying to teach
00:46:30so that we don't have a situation where, uh, God forbid something happens to me, the movement dies.
00:46:36No, we're going to be able to quickly transition to the next. And I am not, my ego is not so big
00:46:43that I don't want to see other voices and younger voices coming into the space. And you and I both know
00:46:48that that has not always been the case in this movement at all, um, at all, at all.
00:46:56No, I mean, I think, you know, for what it's worth there, there's a lot, you know,
00:47:03we live in a different, we live in an era where like visibility is currency in a different way than
00:47:08it was during the civil rights movement that so many of us have learned about. Right. And I think
00:47:14there's, there's a lot of like mudslinging that happens around like, oh, they're just trying to be
00:47:21seen or, you know, they just trying to get attention. And, you know, when I, when I tell you,
00:47:28like, I think that you should be putting these images out there, it's because one of the main
00:47:35methods, whether it's about that civil rights movement or, or, you know, the movement again,
00:47:40apartheid against apartheid and, you know, Hong Kong, et cetera, has been about, you know, just
00:47:46letting people know, you know, letting people know, like making it so that you don't get to be
00:47:52apathetic by nature of just avoidance, you know, like it's in your face. And when you're in your face,
00:47:58you can't, you can't talk yourself. Uh, you know, it's like what we say, like, I can't unsee that.
00:48:03You know what I mean? Like when, when we see, when we see, you know, the, the NBA now dialing back and
00:48:09saying next season, we're not going to have any, um, activism, you know, present at our games,
00:48:15because we just, you know, it's, we're on your same side, but we just don't, you know, we just
00:48:20don't think that that has a place in here because this is about sports. You know, these, these are
00:48:27people who are doing the work of letting people off the hook. Right. Because it's like, it's like
00:48:35they're, they're, they're compartmentalizing these realities, you know, no, this is fun time.
00:48:40And we don't have, we don't have space for reality during fun time. This is escapism,
00:48:46it's basketball, et cetera. Not acknowledging that. I mean, I don't know the actual percentage, but
00:48:52you know, 50, 11 of the players on the God dang NBA have either themselves been affected by these
00:49:01issues or are very closely adjacent to someone who has, let alone the fact that they're a member of
00:49:06a community that by and large is. So I want you to do that. I really, they got a text message from
00:49:14Pookie on their way into practice saying going down, you know, I just got my, my head bust open
00:49:23on the street corner and many, for many different people, it could have been from another Pookie.
00:49:28It could be from police. It could be that I, you know, I'm, I need some money because I'm about to
00:49:33get kicked out of my house. Um, you know, my baby's asthma is really bad. We don't have the medicine
00:49:39we need. There's no mental health services and mama is going crazy. I mean, the things that we're
00:49:44dealing with in our communities and to have an institution, which by the way, I didn't know that
00:49:49the NBA said that, and I gotta go talk about that tonight. Um, that, you know, we, we, we're dealing with
00:49:56such, uh, such trauma. And if you don't even have an opportunity to speak out against what you're
00:50:04feeling in on, on a platform, a major platform that makes you feel like you're actually involved,
00:50:11you're doing something, then how does that contribute to the alcohol abuse, the, you know,
00:50:17the, the potential domestic violence issues to the depression, because now even, even on,
00:50:25even on the largest stage in the world, you can't be you.
00:50:31Here's what I think though, is that a lot of people don't understand when you say you can't be you,
00:50:36a lot of people don't realize that there are forces at work present, preventing from them
00:50:41to be them for preventing them from living their best lives. Like there's so many folks that have
00:50:47got that just, they were born into, you know, ropes and shackles and chains that they, they, that there's,
00:50:54there's like not even an awareness of what it's like to not have that. I see people say things like
00:51:00the president doesn't affect my daily life. And I'm like, how
00:51:07how the president is a big part is, is, is the biggest part of voting on how we are dealing with
00:51:17the EPA, how we are dealing with our natural resources, how we are dealing with the toxicity of our air.
00:51:23When you travel around this nation and you go to different cities, the, the neighborhoods that have
00:51:29the worst air quality are nine times out of 10 black and brown neighborhoods. And the result of
00:51:37poor air quality means asthma. It means cancer. It means high blood pressure. It means all of these
00:51:45things that affect your ability to go to school and, and be able to think and do work, you know,
00:51:53at your highest level. It affects your ability to be able to use your money on things that bring you
00:51:58joy versus on just, you know, trying to struggle through healthcare. And if all of these things are
00:52:02a ripple effect that may seem like they're coming down from so high, but they're affecting you in
00:52:07a direct way. And I just, I'm pleading with people at this point, Tamika, I'm pleading with people to
00:52:14understand that I'm not saying voting is the be all end all, but it is, it is a, it is a portion of the pie
00:52:22of the pie that you have every right to as an American. And, and now and right. And someone,
00:52:31so my other co-founder and colleague, my son, um, who loves you was having a conversation on live the
00:52:41other day. And it was just in my, in the background, I could hear what he was talking to a young man about.
00:52:48And the young man said, when we go to vote, we're not just voting for president. To your point,
00:52:53we're voting for the entire cabinet. We're voting people in who are going to be over the education
00:52:59department. We're voting in, uh, the new head of the FBI, the new attorney general. Uh, these are
00:53:07major positions that need to be held by people that you can at least have a same conversation with.
00:53:13I'm not saying that they're going to be perfect. I'm not saying that, but now you telling me that
00:53:18you could call William Barr, the acting, uh, attorney general, he has never even been confirmed
00:53:24as an attorney general. These people decided, you know what, we just going to throw some folks around
00:53:29and we'll just hold them over and, you know, figure it out later. They haven't even been confirmed,
00:53:34which means they don't have a vote of confidence from the American people.
00:53:37But anyway, um, you can call him Amanda and say, Hey, William Barr, let me tell you
00:53:43what's happening on the streets of America. Um, you know, we, we would like for you to ask your,
00:53:48uh, your special forces that you all sent to local cities, uh, to kidnap and arrest protesters
00:53:56and parents, others, um, like for you to please ask them to stand back and stand by,
00:54:03um, because they're out here killing us and hurting us. Right. Like we should be able to do that.
00:54:08He, if you called William Barr and said those things to him right now, he would tell you there's
00:54:12no such thing as systemic racism in law enforcement and that it is a figment of your imagination. It's
00:54:18actually because of looting and rioting that those individuals have had to be sent to your community.
00:54:24So I would at least like to call somebody who says, well, we don't agree, but let's sit down
00:54:32and talk about how we can work this out. Right. Um, who, who says, okay, I understand the challenge
00:54:39that we're up against here. Uh, let's work on a plan, or maybe I'll come to the town and meet
00:54:45with people and try to help come up with a solution. The current situation that we're in is delusional
00:54:52in that there is not even an acknowledgement of the problem. And that's, and that's, and that's on
00:54:59multiple sides. That's on multiple sides. I, and you know, that's, that's what I get scared about
00:55:05because if you, if we're not acknowledging the problem, you know, as our own, as ourselves,
00:55:10how can we expect, you know, and I'm not talking about black on black crime. That's what I'm talking
00:55:14about. I'm talking about the multitude of issues that are created as a result of being in a country
00:55:23that is built on systemic racism. And I just want to leave, I just want to leave folks with, with this,
00:55:31you know, Tamika, what I think you talked about, what you talked about something that was really
00:55:36impactful to me, which is, you know, just being on the ground and being within the community and how that
00:55:41and how that is an integral part of your work as an organizer, as a truth yeller, you know,
00:55:46as a visible force and a voice. There's so much talk I feel around people's feeling that they are
00:55:55ineffective, not understanding that they are in that community that you have to go to. They're already
00:56:02there. You're already there. So your effectiveness is already bumped up by just the nature of your location.
00:56:10And your locale. And when we talk about, well, how do we organize better? How do we get this ball
00:56:17across the line? I personally believe that, like we said before, so much of it is around the
00:56:24strengthening of what community is and actions beyond that. If you really earnestly are like,
00:56:30I don't want to vote then tell, well, you don't got to tell me, but, but honestly, what are the actions
00:56:36that you're taking that are still advancing your community and strengthening it and empowering it?
00:56:44If you feel like that doesn't work? Well, one of those things is what, what are you doing to create
00:56:49community every day? There has to be some small or, you know, there's a spectrum, but there has to be
00:56:55some attention paid to what you're doing to create community, to build the tribe, to, well,
00:57:00to rebuild the tribe. And so often we tell ourselves, you know, there's just nothing for me to do. So
00:57:08I'm just going to focus on myself and I'm going to keep it a bucket. I'm gonna look dead in the camera.
00:57:12That's lazy. It's late. And one thing we love to talk about is our ancestors. And one thing we can
00:57:19tell you is that they're not lazy. So it's actually not in your blood to be lazy. And I'm not saying that
00:57:24you got to be out here working like a dog, like our ancestors, but when we're working like a dog for
00:57:28ourselves, that's different, that, that, that's a place of power. That's not a place of being enslaved.
00:57:35And so I encourage all of you who are watching to learn more about the work that Tamika and Until
00:57:41Freedom are doing, how you can get involved, how you can be in movement yourself, what that looks like
00:57:48for you, whether it's in your money, your voice, your body, your pen, your art, your, your, you know,
00:57:54your, your power, me as someone in media, like, I just, I'm always holding my cohorts, you know,
00:58:03whether they are in front or behind the camera to task about how they are reporting about us,
00:58:08how are they, how they are sending these messages out. You know, the, the fact that we're talking about
00:58:14riots and looting because the media was putting out images of riots and looting as if it was a thing.
00:58:18And not properly reporting it. And we have a president who like gets his facts from
00:58:27the TV, not from his actual staff. So is there anything that you would like to leave these folks,
00:58:34these lovely Acropunkarians with before we head out?
00:58:40I think you've said everything. And the one thing I know is you don't need to repeat greatness that has
00:58:46already been stated before you. Um, you are amazing, Amanda. And, um, you know, I would just say,
00:58:55someone asked me earlier, what do I want my legacy to be? Um, and that has evolved over time because,
00:59:04you know, at one point, and I, I don't know what else I wanted to be an astronaut. No, I'm just joking.
00:59:08Um, but now I just want to be able to say, I want people to say Tamika tried, right? She was in the
00:59:19fight. She was on the front line. She was trying. And so I would just say to, uh, all of our Afropunk
00:59:27family that each one of us has got to get in and try, try your hardest, you know, put, put your feet
00:59:35forward, even though we may be afraid, even though it doesn't feel comfortable, even though some
00:59:42sacrifices are going to have to be made. If all of us try or my quote, my father has a quote,
00:59:49and I don't know if it came from somebody else, but he owns it now as my daddy's quote,
00:59:53where he says, if all of us serve one another, no one would be unserved or underserved. Right. And so
01:00:02I think, um, for all of us, we need to make sure that our legacy is not just based upon how much
01:00:09money we had and what type of businesses we started, which those things are great. Um, because I believe
01:00:15people need to be successful as successful as they can be. And then some, but I think our legacy has to
01:00:22also be surrounding the idea that we really tried to lift other people up from the bottom or as
01:00:32Jesse Jackson says, the foundation of this nation. That's where I want, that's how I want to be
01:00:37remembered. And I hope that others who may not have made a decision to step off the sidelines
01:00:43will get into the streets in the many ways in which you can. It doesn't mean marching every day,
01:00:49but it means understanding that the, that what's going on outside requires the attention and the focus
01:00:56of all of us. Thank you, Tamika D. Mallory. Thank you to Afropunk. I'm Amanda Seals. Remember we are
01:01:05each other's business. When we look out for each other, we lift each other up. Yes. Peace. Vote. Vote. Vote. Vote.
01:01:16Meet me.
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