00:00Gordon Mahershala, you want him to be in the show.
00:06Initially it's not for the character he plays.
00:09He comes back to you and says, consider me for this.
00:12I know this character was written for a white person.
00:16Curious of what that conversation was
00:18and what the ultimate realization was
00:20that led you to say, screw it, you're in.
00:22Well, I mean, it was a short conversation.
00:26Because I knew I would be really, really lucky
00:29to have an artist of that caliber play in this role.
00:35I said, I love the idea.
00:37My only concern was sort of in the times we live in,
00:41this is a story about time and memory and love.
00:45And I wouldn't want those themes to be subsumed
00:49because suddenly we're telling a story
00:51that is messaging about race or something.
00:54And I don't think I'm the right person
00:57to be doing that anyway.
00:59And he basically said, no, I don't want to do that.
01:02And what Mahershala had told me was that
01:05what he liked about the role was that this was a fully formed
01:08man and human being.
01:10And often actors of color,
01:13their, the role they're up for is defined by race.
01:17So that he says, if I'm playing a detective,
01:20I'm playing the black detective.
01:22If I'm playing the this and, you know, and so at the same time though,
01:26I didn't want to ignore race and pretend that it didn't exist.
01:31It was just more in the fabric of the world.
01:34So, you know, again, it was a brief conversation.
01:36And I just said, well, let me go rewrite the first three episodes
01:40and let's see if this doesn't work.
01:41And then, you know, I did that and realized, oh, it works just fine.
01:48And seeing how Mahershala played the character,
01:52I thought it was such a force multiplier
01:55to have an actor of color in that role.
01:58He's always on the periphery of things a little bit,
02:01a little bit looked over,
02:03but that also gives him the opportunity to be a much closer observer.
02:07And the sort of existential isolation we always associate
02:12with the classic idea of the detective, you know,
02:15like along these mean streets, a man walks along.
02:18I thought that sort of concretized that
02:21in an experiential way for the character.
02:24I was just incredibly grateful that he wanted the role
02:27and I thought it helped me a lot to open up my work
02:33in ways I would have maybe just been shy,
02:36sort of wondering like, well, is that my story to tell?
02:39And then where I landed on that was,
02:41I am actually the only writer on earth
02:44qualified to write about Wayne Hayes.
02:47Because he's a figment of my imagination.
02:49Exactly, exactly.
02:56When was the last time you guys were completely wrong
02:59about viewers' reaction to what you put on screen?
03:04You know, I don't know if wrong is necessarily the word,
03:07but flummoxed might be a little bit better.
03:10There was a way with this season that I tried to be
03:14as transparent as possible with the narrative.
03:17Because of the two later timelines and the way they all interact,
03:21it's telling you what is going to happen before it happens.
03:25If I can keep you interested knowing what's going to happen,
03:28that would be really something for me.
03:31I had never been a social media guy, really.
03:33I know.
03:33And a friend of mine pointed out to me that like,
03:36Instagram might be a more positive platform or something.
03:38And I was really enjoying the reactions of the fans
03:41and interacting with them and answering questions.
03:44But to see from some viewers the sorts of theories
03:52that were, to me, coming out of left field,
03:55sort of like, no, we just told you that's not going to happen.
03:59And we said, this is going to happen.
04:01What I tend to do and what I'm most interested in
04:05is character and the human experience of the individual.
04:08And there's a contingent of viewers, though,
04:10that have been programmed by the sorts of storytelling
04:16we've had over the past few decades
04:19that are simply intent on looking for
04:22what would be the most outre twist, right?
04:27And even, never mind if it would make no sense, you know?
04:31And so I was surprised, probably, by some of that.
04:35They're trying to get ahead of what you're doing
04:37instead of watching it play out.
04:40Yeah.
04:41They're trying to write it for you.
04:42Right.
04:57I'll see you next week.
05:14.
05:15.
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