00:00It's hard for us to conceive that an operation that lasted about four and a half hours and was
00:05a law enforcement operation to capture someone we don't recognize as the head of state indicted
00:10in the United States, wanted with a $50 million balance.
00:12My question would be, if it only took four hours to take off...
00:15our president, it's very short, nobody dies on the other side, nobody dies on our side.
00:19It's...
00:20It's not perfect.
00:21Would it be an act of war?
00:22We just don't believe that this operation comes anywhere close to the...
00:25the constitutional definition of war.
00:26But would it be an act of war if someone did it to us?
00:28Nobody dies...
00:30A few casualties.
00:31They're in and out.
00:32Boom.
00:33It's a perfect military operation.
00:34Would that be an act of...
00:35Of course it would be an act of war.
00:37I'm probably the most anti-war person in the...
00:40Senate and I would vote to declare war if someone invaded our country and took our president.
00:45Our founders debated extensively over which branch of government should have...
00:50the power to declare or initiate war.
00:53Virtually unanimously they decided...
00:55and what was entered into the Constitution was that...
00:57the declaration or initiation of war would be the power of...
01:00Congress.
01:01Now we have many advocates, many of whom are here today.
01:05who have been advocates for an expansive notion of presidential power.
01:10They often argued that wars are not really wars, that they're kinetic actions or...
01:15a drug bus.
01:16I think though if you reverse the circumstances it becomes very...
01:20very difficult for these arguments to hold up.
01:23So I would ask you if a...
01:25foreign country bombed our air defense missiles, captured and removed our...
01:30president and blockaded our country...
01:32would that be considered an act of war?
01:34Well I think...
01:35your question is about the...
01:36and I will acknowledge you've been very consistent on all these points the entire...
01:40career.
01:41So let me...
01:42let me...
01:43no matter who the...
01:44who's in charge.
01:45So I will point...
01:45to two things.
01:46The first is it's hard for us...
01:47to conceive...
01:48that an operation that lasted about four and a half...
01:50hours and was a law enforcement operation to capture...
01:53someone we don't recognize as the head of state...
01:55indicted...
01:56in the United States...
01:57wanted with a $50 million...
01:58my question would be...
01:59if it only took four...
02:00hours to take our president...
02:01very short...
02:02nobody dies on the other side...
02:04nobody dies on our side...
02:05it's perfect...
02:06would it be an act of war...
02:08We... we just don't believe that this operation comes...
02:10anywhere close to the constitutional definition of war...
02:12But would it be an act of war...
02:13if someone did it to us...
02:14nobody...
02:15nobody dies...
02:16few casualties...
02:17they're in and out...
02:18boom...
02:19it's a perfect military operation...
02:20would that be an act of war...
02:21of course it would be an act of war...
02:23I'm probably the most anti-war...
02:25person in the Senate...
02:26and I would vote to declare war...
02:28if someone invaded our country...
02:30and took our president...
02:31basically...
02:32so I think we need to...
02:33at least acknowledge...
02:34this is a one...
02:35one-way argument...
02:36one-way arguments...
02:37that don't rebound...
02:38that you can't...
02:39apply to your...
02:40ourselves...
02:41that cannot be...
02:42universally applicable...
02:43are bad arguments...
02:44so my next question...
02:45would be...
02:46let's say it's not a war...
02:47we're just going to define it away...
02:48and say it's not a war...
02:49that's...
02:50one of the arguments...
02:51so it's a drug bust...
02:52what if a foreign country...
02:54indicts...
02:55our president...
02:56for violating...
02:57a foreign law...
02:59should we...
03:00extradite our president...
03:01should we be okay...
03:02if they come in...
03:03and get him by force...
03:04look I think ultimately...
03:05we're always going to...
03:05act in our national interest...
03:06and so if somebody...
03:07comes after our national interest...
03:08like the case you've described...
03:10which obviously...
03:11does not exist at this time...
03:13but...
03:14the case you've described...
03:15the US always has the right...
03:16to act in its national interest...
03:17and to protect itself...
03:18I don't...
03:19I don't know about this...
03:20equivalency...
03:21does this justify them doing it...
03:22we're always going to do...
03:23what's best for the United States...
03:24and America...
03:25we're always going to protect...
03:25our system...
03:26but the point isn't...
03:27and you're exactly right...
03:28we will act in our national interest...
03:29and we should...
03:30so I'm not disagreeing...
03:31with you at all...
03:32what I'm saying is though...
03:33that our...
03:34our arguments are empty...
03:35and the drug bust...
03:36isn't really an argument...
03:37it's a ruse...
03:38the war argument...
03:39not a...
03:40war...
03:41is a war...
03:42is a ruse...
03:43it's not a real argument...
03:44and...
03:45we do...
03:45what we do...
03:46because we are...
03:47we have the force...
03:48we have the might...
03:49we do it...
03:50because it's in our...
03:50interest...
03:51so we wouldn't let...
03:52anybody come in...
03:53bomb us...
03:54blockade us...
03:55and take our president...
03:55you know...
03:56we've had arguments...
03:57about...
03:58legitimate...
03:59illegitimate...
04:00presidents...
04:01bad elections...
04:00so there's all kinds...
04:01of same arguments...
04:02that we've had...
04:03in our country...
04:04that they've had...
04:05in Venezuela...
04:05but we wouldn't argue...
04:08for an indictment...
04:09and these things aren't...
04:10idle speculation...
04:11I mean...
04:12Netanyahu's been indicted...
04:13by the ICC...
04:14and one of the reasons...
04:15I object to being...
04:16part of the ICC...
04:17and I would say...
04:18you and the administration...
04:19probably agree...
04:20is...
04:20let any...
04:21international counsel...
04:22indict our president...
04:23and arrest him...
04:24somewhere on foreign...
04:25soil...
04:25we're not gonna do that...
04:26we actually...
04:27most of us...
04:28probably object to...
04:29indicting Netanyahu...
04:30in that way...
04:30as well...
04:31so I think...
04:32the arguments...
04:33are invalid...
04:34so we did get...
04:35the legal opinion...
04:35as Dr. Cain referred to...
04:36the...
04:37OLC opinion...
04:38Office of Legal Counsel...
04:39and I think...
04:40lot of it's been released plus they came to our caucus and talked most of the
04:43open about everything they had class
04:45so I will talk about at least one of the arguments they say this war wasn't a
04:49constant
04:50constitutional war therefore doesn't rise to the constitutional nation notion of us to
04:55declaring or having to initiate the war it's it just doesn't rise and one of their main arguments
05:00was not enough people died and so there is some number that
05:05they they aren't specific but there is some number I would assume although I'm not positive but
05:10fifty sixty thousand soldiers who died in Vietnam might be enough for them to call that a war
05:15but here's the problem it isn't the number it's that it happens in retrospect
05:20see our founders gave us the power to initiate or declare war they didn't give us other
05:25powers to execute the war those are left to the president but if we have to wait to see
05:30how many people are killed we have to wait as they describe it as the scope nature and extent
05:35if we have to wait to see the scope nature and extent the war has been going on for some time
05:40it's hard to vote to initiate a war that's been going on and we can say this war is over
05:45we're still blockading it and we may go back in and but there are no clear
05:50answers you know we put two thousand we leave two thousand troops in are we going to call that war
05:55initiate it so the definition of war is very important and I think we have to
06:00acknowledge the problems with our argument calling things kinetic action is a disservice to our
06:05soldiers oh you weren't really wounded in war you don't have a medal of honor for war
06:10you have a medal of honor for a kinetic action so I think let's call it what it is and let's
06:15vote on these things but I think we're in violation of both the spirit and the law of the constitution
06:20by bombing a capital blockading a country and removing uh
06:25uh elected officials and we certainly wouldn't tolerate it nor would I if someone did it to us
06:30we didn't remove an elected official we removed someone who was not elected and it was actually
06:35an indicted drug trafficker in the united states and their system our laws
06:40indicted under our laws look bolsonaro says that da silva is not really the president
06:45president of brazil our president said biden wasn't really the president hillary clinton said
06:50in 2016 trump wasn't the president so you have these arguments and i agree with you
06:55he probably was and most likely was most assuredly was a bad election he wasn't really
07:00elected but at the same time if that's our predicate and you don't have to come to us because it's a drug bust
07:05we're just removing somebody you can see where it leads to and it leads to uh
07:10chaos and that's why we have rules like the constitution so we don't get so
07:15far out there that presidents can do whatever they want it is this check and balance and i would argue for
07:2070 years we've been going the wrong way it isn't just this president but it's a debate that i think is worth having
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