- 3 days ago
Stephen Wilson Jr. joins Katie Neal inside our Nashville studios at the Hard Rock Cafe to talk about the science of songwriting, his song, "Gary," and much more.
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00:00CMA New Artist of the Year, Stephen Wilson Jr. is here to hang out with us. How are you? How's your 2026 so far?
00:06I'm doing very good. Thank you for having me and talking to me, Katie.
00:10It's great to see you. Did you have like a nice little break for the holidays and the new year?
00:14I did, yeah. It was nice to kind of unplug from it all. I just got back from Hawaii.
00:20Oh, where in Hawaii were you?
00:21I was in Maui. I got to play this show with my friend Lucas Nelson and he put together this beautiful benefit there.
00:30I had Paul Simon. Oh my God.
00:32Mick Fleetwood and a bunch of like incredible artists.
00:36That's amazing. I actually leave for Maui in a little less than a month to do Maui Songwriters Festival and Lucas usually pops up at that.
00:43It's always a really fun thing.
00:45Yeah, local boy. And yeah, he showed me the ropes and what a beautiful island. You'll love it.
00:51Yeah, it's gorgeous. All right. So for anyone who is listening and maybe hearing your name for like the first or second time,
00:57I want to talk a little bit about your backstory because it's very interesting.
01:00Like you grew up boxing, did this into adulthood, went to college for microbiology, worked at Mars for a while.
01:07And then now in 2026, you are in the middle of this like very fast rising country music career.
01:12And so I feel like has anyone like have you talked to someone about like the rights to your life in a movie yet?
01:16Because you should be you should be thinking about it.
01:20I thought you were going to ask me, have you talked to a therapist?
01:22Well, that too.
01:26No, yeah, it's it's there's been a lot of chapters so far.
01:30But I think that that adds to like the music that you write and also just being like an incredibly well-rounded and interesting human being.
01:39Well, thank you. I don't think I'm interesting, but it has provided, I guess, a wealth of dialogue and narrative to pull from.
01:48I'm I've been habitually quiet most of my life.
01:54So I got to work a lot of jobs and kind of keep my mouth shut and listen and take notes.
02:01And and from those learnings, that's where the songs kind of came from or just the craft.
02:09So I was never talkative for a long time.
02:12But the listening part is crucial in songwriting.
02:16I'm kind of think of myself more as a stenographer than a songwriter.
02:22And that's kind of what scientists really are.
02:25They're just keeping track of what's happening.
02:27They're the record keepers and some are better at it than others.
02:32And but yeah, so I was you know, it's a bit of science and a bit of stenography at the same time.
02:39And I've been a quiet researcher, just kind of a fly on the wall.
02:42Like who's the weird, weird kid over there that doesn't talk.
02:46But it's jotting something down.
02:49Yeah, you've been keeping a record of all of it.
02:50It's interesting that you say that because one of the things I wanted to ask you is like from your time in boxing and being a scientist,
02:56like what do you feel like now like bleeds through or you apply in your life as a country artist?
03:02Well, I think they're all they're all parts of the quilt and they're all like very significant patches of that quilt.
03:12And, you know, I think they're all very important.
03:17I wouldn't say one is more of a priority than the other.
03:24I use them all like science is a big part of my process.
03:27So, you know, that, you know, collecting, you know, having a hypothesis or an idea and then testing it against the world is pretty much what science is.
03:40But doing it in a controlled setting and doing that experiment over and over again and trying to keep your emotions out of the results.
03:49And that's, I think, what songwriters try to do at the end, you know, because you want to have an emotion to start with because I'm more in the emotion business than I am in the music business.
04:03And at least that's what I think of it as.
04:06So it's got to start with an emotion, but then you kind of got to separate your emotion from it to get to the truth because then you'll have they call user bias and then that'll affect your results.
04:17So science is a big part of it.
04:20But being a trained scientist has helped me kind of remove my emotion from it.
04:26But then the creative side of me and just all the wealth of experiences and emotions that I went through has given me a lot to authenticate an idea from because it has to kind of start with my own emotion.
04:41Because if I felt something, most likely somebody else has.
04:44Yeah, it's such a what a beautiful analogy to think about.
04:47Songwriting and science and all of the parallels.
04:50And that leads me to your first single to Country Radio, Gary, like thinking of that as an experiment to send out to the world.
04:58What do you feel like the results from it have been like so far in the feedback that you've gotten from people?
05:03Well, I tested that one a lot.
05:05A lot of laboratories everywhere from eight to ten participant laboratories to thousands of participant laboratories.
05:15And, you know, you get the greater, you know, number of participants you have, the more valid your results are, generally speaking.
05:24That's just how statistics work.
05:26But I would get results instantly with that song because that one was really, I had to be real careful about that because Gary is more of a metaphor, a Gary-o-type, so to speak.
05:40Yes, a Gary-o-type.
05:42I love all the Gary puns that have come from the song, Gary.
05:45I'm Gary, sorry.
05:46It will continue.
05:47But, yeah, I had to start, you know, with a metaphor that, you know, that everybody could relate to because, you know, you don't really know.
05:59Because I had this experience with the Garys.
06:01Like, I started to basically, you know, think of Gary as a subspecies, a human, like a Gary as an organism, not so much just a name for a person because it was, to me, more of a stereotype or a Gary-o-type, so to speak.
06:21And so if you could classify that organism, how would you do that?
06:28And that's how I approach Gary is almost like kind of like how Jane Goodall would approach a chimpanzee or something, kind of like studying the Garys in the wild because, you know, the Garys are going extinct.
06:42And we tend, like, you know, if you watch Nat Geo, they tend to really hyper-focus on animals that are rare, not the ones that you see all the time.
06:54They really go out and look for the endangered species or the almost extinct one.
07:02And it feels like Gary is like an endangered or almost extinct character, organism, whatever you want to look at it as.
07:08I think we could classify him as endangered for sure.
07:10And where I come from, the Garys are very important, Gary important.
07:15And they, you know, every Gary I know just knows how to fix something.
07:21It's just, they're just kind of born with this kind of natural mechanical inclination, so to speak.
07:29And so I went around the world and basically had this hypothesis about the Garys.
07:36And in every laboratory, I'd have this, someone come up, like, you're, I know exactly who you're talking about.
07:43Like, his name is Gary, or he's my uncle.
07:46This is his picture.
07:47Or he's no longer with us.
07:49And you're right.
07:50They're, you know, if, you know, if you can show me like a 10-year-old Gary, like, that's the challenge I give to the audience.
07:57Like, present him to me.
07:59Yeah.
07:59And we will bubble wrap him.
08:01Exactly.
08:02We'll protect him.
08:02Or, like, somebody start raising another generation of Garys, I think, is also, like, the message that you want to send to people.
08:09Yeah.
08:09We're going to need him.
08:10It's really important because, like, technology and everything is cool.
08:15But when your septic tank blows, I mean, there's, your iPhone ain't going to do nothing about it.
08:20No.
08:21Exactly.
08:21You mean a Gary.
08:23Was there an initial Gary in your life?
08:26Or, like, where did the, how did, like, the name come together with this, like, metaphor that you were, like, putting together?
08:32Well, I do.
08:33I come from a long line of Garys.
08:35I grew up in a body shop.
08:36And everybody in those body shops were Garys, whether they were named Gary or not.
08:41Yeah.
08:41And so I kind of, I began to look at it as a metaphor and comparison tool.
08:48And really how it was inspired initially was I was driving down the highway, and I write a lot of songs in the car.
09:01Like, I write all my lyrics first, generally speaking.
09:04Mm-hmm.
09:05And then I put it to music later.
09:08Not always, but most of the time.
09:11And I was driving, and I saw this billboard on the side of the highway, and it was a memorial billboard.
09:19It was really sad.
09:20And the song is sad, by the way.
09:21Mm-hmm.
09:22Gary dies.
09:23And, but it was a billboard of a young man named Gary, and I won't, for privacy purposes, I won't say his full name.
09:32But it said Gary, in memory of Gary, blank, blank, and it had a picture of a boy that couldn't have been maybe 16 years old.
09:42Mm-hmm.
09:42And it was heartbreaking.
09:44And I would just assume that maybe he passed away on that highway, perhaps in a car accident or something.
09:50And it was just tragic, you know, and they made this memorial for him on the side of the highway.
09:54And, you know, there were trees growing all around it, and, and, you know, the fact that there is a young, young man there with the name Gary.
10:05Like, he couldn't have, he had to have gone to maybe East Hickman High School or something like that.
10:10Yeah.
10:10Or, um, and I just said instantly out loud, there ain't a lot of boys named Gary these days.
10:18Mm-hmm.
10:19And then I just got my phone out, and I just, the chorus just kind of wrote itself.
10:24Wow.
10:24And Debbie kind of showed up, and it was a real subconscious kind of expression of the idea, because, you know, I, I started thinking of it as that.
10:35And, and the heartbreak that came from seeing that sign and the pain that had to have come from it was, like, um, the catalyst for the whole idea.
10:45Like, you know, every chemical reaction needs that catalyst, and I think that's what that was.
10:50And it just kind of, it unraveled itself in the car, and then I, I went home and put it to music.
10:57Like, I, I had this kind of looping guitar part that just seemed to make sense, because Gary seemed like a bit of a hustler.
11:04And so I, I, I played it really fast, and, uh, and, uh, and then just, I just, I just spat that lyric out.
11:14And that's how the song.
11:15That's so beautiful.
11:16And there's something, like, really almost, like, divine about the timing of, like, you seeing that and that song coming through you.
11:23Have you, like, does the family know at all that that, that their Gary was kind of, like, the catalyst for that moment?
11:29Um, no, no, they, they might know now.
11:33Yeah.
11:34But, uh, but yeah, um, no, I, you know, I am out of disrespect for them.
11:40Yeah.
11:40And I've tried to keep that private.
11:43But, but I would love to talk to them about how their boy inspired this song, and how, and, you know, he inspired so many people around the world.
11:53And, um, I've had so many messages from so many people that either knew a Gary or are a Gary.
12:01Yeah.
12:01And, like, are feeling seen for the, kind of the first time in their lives.
12:05I mean, I feel like the Gary's have been, for, for the most part, been forgotten.
12:11And I think they had kind of conceded to that, you know, to their own demise a long time ago.
12:18So, to see this, uh, I don't know, this expression of love, I think they really feel it.
12:25And so do, so do other people.
12:27And I think technology is moving very fast, and it can be quite scary.
12:31And this, you know, isn't an anti-technology song.
12:35It's just a pro-human song.
12:37Yeah.
12:37That's really, I was thinking about it.
12:39I was like, I feel like you should do, like, a Gary meetup.
12:40Like, you know, you'll see, like, a meetup of Ryan's, and there'll be, like, 200 Ryans in a bar.
12:44Like, I feel like you need to do, like, a meetup of Gary's.
12:46Yeah.
12:46And then you do a private show at, like, a bar or something for Gary's.
12:49Like, that would be, that could be really fun.
12:52Yeah, maybe on Christmas or something.
12:54Yeah.
12:54A Gary Christmas.
12:55A Gary Christmas.
12:56There you go.
12:57But I wanted to tell you, like, how, I know that everyone shares their story with you about this song.
13:01But, like, my dad is a Bob, but he's very much a Gary.
13:04Yeah.
13:05Carpenter by trade, but was also, like, the electrician and the plumber and the mechanic growing up.
13:10Like, it was, it's still so hard for me when something breaks in my own house to be like, oh, I have to call somebody for that.
13:18Like, I usually try to fix things first because that's how we grew up.
13:20Like, it was very rare that my dad can't fix whatever is broken.
13:24Yeah.
13:25And so, and I do, I think, all the time.
13:27Like, I'm like, I just don't, I don't really know any men in 2026 who are like my dad.
13:32Yeah.
13:33Like, truly a dying breed.
13:34Like, whenever I see a guy who's, like, handy or something, I'm like, that's special.
13:38Yeah, I know.
13:39They're a rarity and a garrity.
13:42A garrity.
13:43There you go.
13:43But, yeah, you know, it's, it's, it's really important that we recognize that, I think, because, you know, houses are still being built and electricity is still being wired and concrete still being poured and alternators are still being changed as, as much as, like, we don't really see those moving parts.
14:07Yeah.
14:07And there's a lot of really important humans that are really important to those moving parts.
14:13Absolutely.
14:13And I think we celebrate a lot of people in society, and I'm not sure all of them deserve celebrating.
14:20I'm with you on that.
14:21How about we celebrate some that really deserve it and really have earned it and literally have the calluses on their hands to prove it.
14:30Yeah.
14:31It's really special.
14:31You were going out on the Gary the Torch, Gary the Torch tour this spring.
14:37Talk about what you are most looking forward to for this, because you're kind of, like, zigzagging all across America.
14:44Well, just connecting with other humans, that's a big part of the whole experience.
14:50Our age demographic is, like, 7 to 77.
14:55And it's special.
14:57So it brings in humans of all ages and all parts of the world.
15:02And so really just kind of getting back in the room with them and having that experience together, because this really has nothing to do with me and has everything to do with us.
15:14And I think everybody recognizes that in the moment.
15:17So, like, getting back to that.
15:19And so, you know, Gary the Torch is, you know, you know, that's obviously a pun.
15:26But, you know, I'm trying to keep that torch going, you know, because I think people need a light right now.
15:33And if those shows can be even a flicker or a spark, I'll do my part.
15:39Yeah, that's incredible.
15:41I really, I think it's so special.
15:42I can't wait to come see the tour.
15:43I love what you're doing.
15:44I'm really curious, just, like, knowing all these interesting things about you and, like, your message and everything.
15:49Like, what are you doing in your downtime?
15:51Like, when you're, like, hanging out, like, what are your hobbies?
15:53Like, what, when you're not working on music, what are you doing?
15:56I like to fish.
15:59I like to look at trees.
16:01Yeah?
16:01Yeah, I like to be in the woods.
16:03And maybe doodle, draw a little bit.
16:10When you draw, what are you drawing?
16:11Are you drawing, like, you know, people, places?
16:15Whatever I see.
16:17Uh-huh.
16:17Yeah.
16:19Yeah, it's just usually whatever comes to mind.
16:21I don't think about it.
16:22That's kind of the whole point of it.
16:24I do a lot of thinking, so I try to do non-thinking sometimes.
16:28You know, I play with our dogs.
16:34What kind of dogs do you have?
16:35I got a Belgian Malinois and another dog that's half German Shepherd and, like, quarter Pitbull and quarter Husky.
16:44Oh, my gosh.
16:44I found her in the river.
16:47She was, like, six months old.
16:48She came running out of the river.
16:50She was dumped and almost ran over her, and she was in real bad shape.
16:54But she had been, like, running from coyotes, you could tell, for days and was exhausted and pretty much feral and, like, a wild animal.
17:02So I had a lot of empathy for that.
17:06And I've dealt with a lot of feral people in my life.
17:11So maybe I am a little bit myself.
17:15So, yeah, it took me a couple hours to get her in my car.
17:19But she's been ours ever since.
17:21Aw.
17:21And then we just rescued this Belgian Malinois about 11 months ago.
17:25And she's been going on the road with us, and she's been on stage with me a couple times.
17:30I think that having a road dog is such a good thing for artists because, like, I know, I think Brett Eldridge used to talk about how he would come off stage and you have this, like, incredible high.
17:40And it's, like, so great to have a companion, like a dog, to greet you when you get out of that situation.
17:45Yeah, it really is.
17:47It's so grounding because they don't give a damn about your career.
17:53Oh, they definitely don't.
17:54They don't care about your music.
17:56They don't care about that line and that song.
17:59You know, they really, you know, they're just there for you.
18:05So it's a great reminder every time of, you know, where to be and it's just there because that's where they are.
18:12Absolutely.
18:12You know, I love them for that and, you know, I have this, you know, particular strong connection to, like, coyotes and wolves and dogs are, you know, basically members of those families are, you know, our first invention really is a dog.
18:36And it's wild that it's God spelled backwards because it is our first attempt at playing God.
18:43And they're wild, but they are also, you know, very tame.
18:51And I guess maybe we are, too.
18:53So I think that's.
18:54Yeah, I do think about that.
18:56I got a dog last summer and I do think about that a lot.
18:58Sometimes I look at them and I'm like, I can't believe that I just, like, invited this animal into my home.
19:02But I also don't know what I would do without it.
19:04Yeah, I know.
19:05Yeah, we've been living with them for a very long time, like wolves or members of those lines.
19:15They've very much been in tune with our species.
19:19And I think that's just something we know whether we can prove it or not.
19:23Yeah.
19:24Another beautiful relationship in the human world.
19:26So Stephen Wilson, Jr., I so enjoyed this and I'm so excited for the world to get to hear Gary on country radio.
19:32And I'm really glad that you came in to see us today.
19:35Thanks for having me again.
19:36Of course.
19:36God bless.
19:42Thank you for having me again.
19:43Thank you for having me again.
19:43Of course.
19:43Thank you for having me again.
19:45Of course.
19:46God bless.
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