- 8 months ago
This episode of India First features a debate regarding Prime Minister Narendra Modi's criticisms of the Congress party in Kerala. Congress representative Dr. Karuna Sagar accuses the Prime Minister of communal polarisation and cites 1,318 alleged hate speeches by BJP leaders in 2025. In response, BJP National Spokesperson Sanju Verma defends the government’s economic record, noting India has overtaken Japan as the world's fourth-largest economy with a growth rate exceeding 7.5%. Verma highlights the success of the Ujjwala Yojana and Pradhan Mantri Awas Yojana, claiming multidimensional poverty has dropped to 1.3%. Panelists Suman C. Raman and Abhijit Iyer-Mitra analyze Kerala's political dynamics, the influence of Jamaat-e-Islami, and the 'Urban Naxal' narrative. The discussion contrasts the BJP's electoral strike rates in Maharashtra and Haryana against the ideological shifts between the Left and Congress. This news segment examines the intersection of economic data, welfare schemes, and communal rhetoric ahead of regional political contests.
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00:00So, is there merit in Prime Minister Narendra Modi saying Congress is more communist than
00:05the Maoists, more communal than the Muslim League?
00:08Should the Congress also have to clarify its stance on Jamaat-e-Islami leader who is saying
00:12that who can be opposed to an Islamic Republic?
00:15Or is there merit in the Congress saying that a communal agenda is deliberately being peddled
00:21in Kerala to divert attention from what Rahul Gandhi describes as a dead economy?
00:26Joining me on India first is Dr. Karuna Sagar representing the Congress party, Sanju Verma
00:31is the national spokesperson of the Bharatiya Janta party.
00:34Also with me as political analyst on this big story, Sumansi Raman and Abhijit Ayer Mitra.
00:39Welcome.
00:40Dr. Karuna Sagar, how would the Congress respond to the Prime Minister saying Congress today
00:45is more communist than the Maoists and more communal than the Muslim League, sir?
00:50Good evening to you, to all the fellow panellists and to your viewers and a very happy Saraswati
00:58Puja to all your viewers and I pray to the Goddess of Wisdom to be little kind to our Prime Minister.
01:08The Prime Minister Modi's desperate attempt to label Congress as Muslim League, Maoist Congress exposes
01:17his pathological fear of a party that built modern India. This is a Prime Minister who sees Congress
01:24everywhere, even in a state where we were not in power for past 10 years. This is a textbook
01:32communal polarization from a Prime Minister who has delivered zero press conference, but infinite
01:39hate speeches. In 2025 alone, there has been 1318 hate speeches made by the BJP leaders. And the
01:52Christians during the Christmas were being attacked all over the country. The Prime Minister makes a
01:59symbolic visit to a church, but he fails to condemn this kind of attack on the Christians who are
02:06worshipping during the during the Christmas celebrations. So the silence of the Prime Minister
02:15and the shrillness of the Sun is very obvious that this is an attempt at criminal polarization.
02:23Fair enough. Your opening comment uninterrupted. Sanju Verma, the floor is yours on the Congress
02:30Party's allegation that this is a very deliberate attempt to polarize the electorate ahead of elections
02:37in Kerala, madam.
02:39You know, Gaurav, very quickly, nothing has changed from 1951 till 2026 as we speak. In 1951,
02:47Nehru was shooting off letters to the likes of Dr. Rajendra Prasad saying, what's the need to go for a
02:53splendid Somnath temple inauguration? It reeks of Hindu revivalism. But the Eritar Garbari ecosystem
03:00continues to wax eloquent about how secular Pandit Nehru is. Now, am I obsessed with Nehru? No. But our
03:08future generations and your audience needs to learn that Rahul Gandhi's father, Rajiv Gandhi, Rajiv Gandhi's
03:15mother, Indira Gandhi, and Indira Gandhi's father, Nehru. None of them are secular. Let's not forget the
03:20same Congress Party, which keeps talking about how Muslims are marginalized under the Modi government.
03:26Robert Wadra said that post the Operation Sindur, you know, dialogue that we had with various stakeholders.
03:34Okay.
03:35This is the same Congress Party which denied Shah Bano a monthly alimony of just 179 rupees and nobody has
03:45forgotten nothing. And speaking of Rahul Gandhi, I want to ask one thing. Is it true that when Rahul Gandhi
03:52visited the Somnath temple and your reporters have carried out this story, outside there's a register
03:58where you need to specify what religion is? And he wrote, he's a practicing Christian. How can a
04:05practicing Christian have the guts and audacity to lecture the 79.8 percent Hindu population of India
04:12under the garb of being secular? And my final point is this. Let's not forget that, you know,
04:20under the Congress Party, you want to be anti-Modi, I can understand, but you are demonizing our
04:25institutions, not just the enforcement directorate and CBI. You have a problem with VVPAT, you have a
04:30problem with EVMs, you have a problem with the entire electoral process and Justice Chandra Chud.
04:36The former CJI told Rahul Gandhi, each time the Congress demonizes the electoral process, you are
04:43creating fear and instability in the country. You cannot approve of elections when you win and demonize
04:50elections when you lose. This is typical. Dr. Karna Sagar wants to quickly respond to an intervention.
04:56He wants to intervene, you know, because the Congress, you know, and I want Sanju Varma to come in once
05:02again on that later, Dr. Karna Sagar. The Congress officially said that he's a Jaineyu Dhaari Brahman.
05:08But go ahead, Dr. Karna Sagar, you wanted to respond. You see, when Sanju Varma started
05:16talking about the electoral malpractices, the debate, the topic is also not that today.
05:23And we are not discussing that. I never mentioned about it. But it's just that
05:28what is hidden, it comes out. So, she ultimately has to talk about it because she feels guilty about
05:37it. She knows that the nation is questioning the process of SIR. The nation is questioning the way
05:43elections are being conducted there. They talked about the outsiders. During the SIR, no outsiders were found.
05:52I am from Bihar. 47 lakh votes were deleted, but none of them were from outsiders. So, where is the
06:00outsiders? Where is the SIR process? And today, the electoral machinery has become such a sham that
06:09Rahul Gandhi twice, thrice did press conferences with evidences. Election Commission chose to remain
06:17silent on those and never replied on those specific allegations.
06:21Okay. So, since both of you have raised that point, Sanju Varma, quickly, before I bring in Sumant Ravan,
06:27on the Kerala Congress story, on the Kerala story. Respond, madam. Yes.
06:30Yes. Gaurav, in five seconds, I spoke of EVMs because I wanted to expose the urban naxalite
06:37mentality of Rahul Gandhi and the darbari ecosystem, which demonizes institutions. Speaking of Kerala,
06:43I want to ask Rahul Gandhi, is it not true that his priory Behna, Priyanka Badra, contested from Guaynar
06:50with full support of the Jamaat-e-Islami? Is it not true that in Karnataka, the Congress Party received
06:57support and has often been in alliance with the SDPI, which is an arm of the band PFI? Is it not true
07:05that in local body elections in Kerala, the Congress Party solicited support from the Welfare Party of
07:11India, which is an affiliate of Jamaat-e-Islami? So, let me say one thing very, very clearly.
07:16Okay. Let me quickly bring in Sumanth Raman.
07:34On the Congress being attacked both by the left and the right, Mr. Raman, on Jamaat-e-Islami leader,
07:44Sheikh Mohammed Khara Kunu's comment of no rejection of an Islamic Republic or words to that effect.
07:52Are such sentiments and these links worrisome in your view, sir?
07:57Look, obviously, the Congress has swept the local body elections in Kerala a few weeks ago. So,
08:05there is a lot of concern. And the BJP, in fact, though they did win Tiruvannanda Puram,
08:10their overall vote share in the state was either stagnant or actually dropped a little bit. So,
08:15I think that desperate times call for desperate measures. It does look like the UDF would come
08:21back to power in Kerala in the, you know, in the elections in April, May. So, I think that,
08:27naturally, the dog whistles will have to go out. I think it's very important to also understand that
08:36if the SDPI is a registered political party, to say that if you have an alliance with it,
08:44you are having alliance with extremists, it makes no sense. That means that there's been a serious
08:49failure on the part of the union government if they are actually taking the stand that the SDPI,
08:55then you should ban the SDPI. What is preventing? Who is running the central government? Why can't
09:00they ban the SDPI? Why can't they ban the welfare party? I mean, I am not able to understand this.
09:05So, all that is there is you need these parties to keep showing, oh my god, they are having these
09:11alliances with the SDPI. They are having the alliances with these people. Now, the point is…
09:15But an Islamic Republic in India, if a leader of a Jamaat-e-Islami is saying,
09:22who can be opposed to an Islamic Republic in India, is that as the left is asking the Congress,
09:28rejection of constitutional democracy? Clearly, that is an unacceptable statement. And it is
09:34for the Congress to come out and say that they dissociate themselves completely from that statement.
09:39Having said that, the Indian Union Muslim League, which is a recognized political party for decades,
09:45has been part of the UDF for a very long time in Kerala, as they still are. So,
09:51naturally, and the fact that both the left, the left more and more in Kerala has sort of
10:00metamorphosed into a sort of a Hindu party. In Kerala, the Congress gets the votes of the
10:06Christians, it gets the votes of the Muslims. And the left has gradually sort of moved closer to the
10:13vote bank of the BJP. So, naturally, for the left to make these accusations is not very surprising at all.
10:20So, let me also bring in Abhiji Tayyar Mitra before I bring in Sanju Verma and Dr. Karna Sagar
10:24back in the conversation. Because Abhiji Tayyar Mitra, it's not just the BJP, even the CPM is
10:29challenging the Congress on this support of these, as the CPM puts it, communal organizations. They say
10:38it exposes ideological inconsistencies of the Congress. But is there merit in Subantraman saying
10:45that the left is actually moving right in Kerala? No. He's absolutely wrong and I'll tell you why.
10:52And the left, I find myself in a very surprising position where I'm in total agreement with the
10:57Communist Party of India in Kerala. Now, what happens with the CPI is CPs, Communist Parties throughout the
11:05world? They support Islamists when they are out of power, the moment they come to power.
11:10The first people they jail and kill are the Islamists. This is what happened in the People's
11:14Republic of China. This is what happened in Russia. You look at Lenin's statements before 2017,
11:191917, and you look at his statements after 2023 and what he did. The whole bunch of Central Asian
11:27Muslims and Mullahs were killed off. The entire population of Chechnya and Dagestan under Stalin
11:33were deported to Siberia. So you see the communists have a very good anti-Islamist record when they
11:39are in power, just not when they're out of power. In Kerala, they're in power and you see the pattern.
11:44There was this lady who made a video that led to a suicide on a bus two, three days back.
11:51It is the communist government and the police of Kerala that are clamping down on that ridiculous
11:55video because it has emerged there was no wrongdoing on that poor man's part. The Congress,
12:01on the other hand, is going and supporting this lady who is suddenly behaving very pious.
12:05Now, let us look at the Congress's own history. This is the Congress, remember, that supported the
12:13Mopla rebellion, which was a completely anti-Hindu pogrom. This is the same Congress that created
12:20the Khilafat movement, which led to Jinnah leaving the Congress, which ultimately led to Pakistan.
12:25Congress is responsible for Pakistan. So they have a long, long, long history of mollycoddling,
12:34supporting, promoting, nurturing the very worst kind of extremists. That said, Sumantharaman is
12:46absolutely correct. Why isn't it being banned? But let me tell you why it is not being banned.
12:51You have very, you can't just go around banning anyone and everyone. You allow them to speak.
12:56What happens is they get more and more and more comfortable with themselves.
13:01They open their mouths more. They extend their reach more. You get more funding and that is when
13:06you ban them.
13:08Okay. So is that, is the long rope argument that you give there? Sanju, I'm just coming to you in a
13:13moment, ma'am. I want to bring in Dr. Karna Sagar on what the Kerala Congress has put out.
13:17They, the Kerala Congress has put out a tweet saying, Modi believes Kerala can be misled by
13:24jumlahs, the way UP, MP and Gujarat were. He underestimates a state whose political culture
13:31is shaped by awareness, resistance and accountability. Sir, in your view, since Congress is not a regional
13:38party in Kerala and also a national level party, is the Congress, as the BJP puts it, not insulting the
13:45voters of UP, MP and Gujarat?
13:47No, you see, the prime minister's jumlahs has been famous and it has been admitted by the
13:57home minister himself that the prime minister goes for jumlahs during elections. What happened
14:03to the 15 lakh rupees which was promised? What happened to the 2 crore employment which was promised
14:09every year? What happened to the doubling of the farmer's income every year? And what happened to
14:16the dollar and the rupee ratio? The prime minister, when he was in Gujarat, he said that the rupee and
14:24the dollar ratio reflects the respect of the nation, the stature of the nation. And Manmohan Singh gave him
14:33a 58 rupees exchange rate and today is 91.64 rupees. It has already crossed prime minister's age.
14:45My question, sir, was, are the voters of UP, MP and Gujarat being insulted by Kerala Congress by saying
14:54you fall for jumlahs, Kerala will not fall for jumlahs. But let me take the points that you have raised to
14:59Sanju Verma. Sanju Verma, Kerala Congress says, you know, words to the effect, North Indians may be
15:06misled. Kerala is smarter. They will not fall for this. You know, Gaurat, first point that I want to
15:13make is that, you know, the Congress spokesperson here was elucidating about how the economy is going,
15:20you know, down the tube, blah, blah, blah. Let me just tell him, today we are the world's fourth
15:24largest economy having overtaken Japan. Before 2027, we will overtake Germany to become the world's
15:30third largest economy. India is the only economy, Gaurav, which is growing at 7.5 percent plus.
15:36Their inflation is still less than 2 percent. The last inflation number of December 2025 was 1.3 percent.
15:42And let me tell this Congress person, 10 crore women have benefited thanks to Ujwala Yojana.
15:48More than 4 crore houses built thanks to Pradhan Nantri Awaz Yojana. More than 44 lakh crore worth of
15:54loans given under Mudra Yojana and 76 percent beneficiaries are women. More than 47,000 kilometers
16:00of railway track electrified. The Congress party actually, when it was in power, poverty rate was
16:0627.9 percent. Today poverty rate is down to 1.3 percent. And extreme poverty is down to 0.82 percent.
16:1425 crore people have been uplifted from multi-dimensional poverty. But this is not
16:19about the economy alone. Yaakob Mehmet Ji, Masood Azhar Ji, Osama Bin Laden Ji, Muhtar Ansari Ji.
16:29This is the Congress narrative. Do you remember the narrative a couple of years back?
16:37The moment Dr. Sanju Varma completes Dr. Karna Sagat, come in.
16:49Yeah. 10 seconds for her to complete her point.
16:53Just 10 seconds for her to complete her point and then I'm coming to you, sir.
16:57Okay. My final point is this, Gaurav. The best barometer of the success of a leadership or a
17:06political party is whether you win elections or not. We won four out of the state elections which
17:14went into polls after June 2024 with a massive strike rate of 67 percent. Congress lost Maharashtra,
17:22lost Jharkhand, lost Haryana, lost Delhi, lost Jammu Kashmir, and won only six seats in Bihar.
17:29You could not win a single state. Zero strike rate. Shant ho jau.
17:37Okay. Dr. Karna Sagar, you wanted to come and also respond to the point of the Prime Minister saying it's
17:41important to remain vigilant regarding the Congress party. They're using Kerala as testing
17:46ground for their strategies. Sir, are both the BJP and the left creating an impression,
17:51rightly or otherwise, that for the Congress party, and you just heard Sanju Varma, for the
17:56Congress party, secularism means Muslim appeasement or urban naqsal appeasement.
18:02Yeah. There are quite a few things you mentioned. First, let me respond to BJP's spokesperson. Today,
18:111 percent of the population at the top owns 40 percent of nation's wealth. And the bottom…
18:18Please, I didn't disturb you. Please, I didn't disturb you. Please, I didn't disturb you. Let me complete…
18:24Ma'am, ma'am, let Dr. Karna Sagar complete his point. Let Dr. Karna Sagar complete his point.
18:29Yeah. And the bottom 50 percent owns only 3 percent of the wealth of the country. We are talking about being the
18:39fourth economy in the world. Okay. Only Dr. Karna Sagar. Sanju Varma, nobody will be able to hear
18:47both. Nobody will be able to hear both simultaneously. Let him complete his point. Let him complete his
18:52point. I'll come back to you to respond. Go on, sir. Yeah. So, I began by saying that 1 percent of the
19:00population owns 40 percent of the wealth of the nation and the bottom 50 percent owns only 3 percent
19:07of the nation's wealth. And today, 85 crore people are dependent on 5 kg rice, which is being sent by
19:17the government. And the unemployment is all-time highest. The people are underemployed. The people are
19:26becoming unemployable. They are going out of the employment market. So, that is as far as the
19:33economy is concerned. Now, she was talking about the urban nuxal mentality. Today, the moot question,
19:42Gaurav, is who is an Indian? If you are a farmer agitating against the government, you are a Khalistani.
19:50If you raise your voice as a Muslim, you are a Pakistani. If you question the government,
19:58you are an urban nuxal, it's a typical fascist narrative which the world saw in 1930s Germany.
20:09Okay, Sanju Verma, Sanju Verma wants to respond because the urban nuxal point that you raise,
20:18any Muslim who opposes the Congress party says is branded a Pakistani Sanju Verma.
20:23You know, Gaurav, I heard him because you said I should not interject. I hope he will not heckle me.
20:29You know, he keeps talking about economy and, you know, Modiji promised this, Modiji promised that.
20:34Hey, brother, listen. Today, we are the world's second largest smartphone market.
20:38We are the world's third largest automobile producer. We are the world's second largest tractor
20:42manufacturer. We are the world's fifth largest stock market. We have the world's fourth largest
20:47US forex reserves of more than 700 billion dollars. And let me tell you one more thing. I stay in Mumbai.
20:53There is something called the Atal Setu. Mumbai Maharashtra,
20:57Ram's hardware link project. It was envisioned by your Pandit Nehru in 1961, completed under Modi
21:02government in 2023 after 62 long years. So you are the last person who should be lecturing about
21:09governance. But I will just say this. 34 Muslims were given tickets in Lok Sabha 2019 by the Congress
21:17party. I have the data in front of me. In 2024, only 19 Muslims were given Lok Sabha tickets. That is
21:26a 44 percent decline. You said BJT is anti-Muslim. But Congress says it is pro-Muslim. Why did you not give
21:34more tickets in 2024? Actually, there was a 44 percent decline. And you have the audacity to lecture us from
21:40Satu. You said that you have so hypocrisy. Where do you take it from? Tell me.
21:45But let me also bring in… Yes, sir. I want to come in. But I also want to bring in our other
21:50guests on this broadcast so that it remains conversational. And Abhijit Ayer Mitra, the point about
21:56urban naxals, you know, anybody being labeled an urban naxal, anybody, any Muslim if he raises a point,
22:02is branded Pakistani. It's a very fascist approach, says the Congress party. Is that what is happening?
22:08Any farmer is labeled a Khalistani. Look, there were Khalistanis amongst the farmers. You saw the
22:15flags and the posters. Did you see the Bindranwale posters out there or did you not? We all saw that.
22:22We all saw what they did when they came and beat up the central police in Delhi. I mean, we've seen
22:27those pictures, right? They're taking whatever sticks and the police are covering because they don't have
22:32on Republic Day, no less. What do you call somebody who puts up a Bindranwale poster? I want to know.
22:38I certainly can't call him a nationalist. If you have people who recite
22:45slogans like, Afzal Guru, Tere Katil Zinda Hai, I'm meant to call them an Indian citizen, is it?
22:52You know, this is the problem with the Congress. It has gone from being the big tent, big umbrella
22:57party that used to represent all Indians to becoming the big tent, big extremist and terrorist
23:03party, which represents all extremists. They have now perfected the art of losing elections.
23:09So Sumanth Raman was right. That's a rather harsh view, but I'll get Sumanth Raman to respond to that
23:13and Dr. Karna Sagar. But yeah, complete your point, sir.
23:16Let me finish. See, Sumanth Raman was totally right when he said UDF looks like he's winning.
23:21The problem is, if you go by historical precedent, Rahul has an incredible record
23:25of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. On the basis of the farmers protest, they should have
23:30won Punjab. What did Rahul do? He gets rid of Amrinder Singh based on some Navjot Singh's likes and
23:36whatever, and they lose spectacularly. Haryana, what did they do? Exact same thing. Hubris, overconfidence.
23:42We are winning. We are winning. They do jat consolidation and you have complete counter jat
23:46consolidation. This is a man. He's a walking, talking train wreck of a party leader. I think
23:53the communists are very happy. I think after Modi, I'm telling you, Modi prays for Rahul's long life
24:00and continued leadership every day. And after that, Pinarai Vijayan is the biggest well-wisher
24:05in the nation of Rahul Gandhi. Let me, okay, Sumanth Raman, you want to quickly respond to some of these
24:11aspects. Can we come in? Okay, just let me, let me just stay a little, Sumanth Raman wants to come
24:18in, especially on the aspect of the BJP labeling Congress either as Maoist, Muslim or elements as
24:25urban naqsals, that even if there is a Bhindrawale poster that's put up, even if Red Fort is attacked,
24:32you know, on a very sensitive day, they will continue to not highlight that and say these were farmers who
24:40are protesting. Look, Gaurav, you know better than me that you are not supposed
24:47to label an entire group or an entire party or an entire community based on the action of a few
24:53individuals. But those few individuals must be called out. No, no, you can call out the individual,
24:59not the party or not the community. Look, it's very, very simple. The issue is if you take,
25:06for instance, the number of people who have been arrested in the recent past for espionage,
25:12most of them have turned out to be from the majority community and you know that better than me.
25:18So, does, can somebody, you know, start saying that, you know, people of this community are all
25:24spying against India? It makes no sense. But nobody, nobody says that about the other community anyways.
25:30It does, you do. After a million terror attacks, nobody is linked to anything to anybody.
25:35If a member of the minority community says anything critical of the government,
25:41he will be met with, go to Pakistan. How is that? How is that? We are starting
25:46Sanju Verma wants to come in to respond to that. Sanju Verma wants to come in to that. Sir,
25:51it was Dada Mukherjee who once had to get up and ask, you know, it's not Martians from outer space
25:57who are launching these terror attacks, of course, in reference to a neighbor.
26:00Okay, Sanju Verma wants to quickly respond. I'll come back to you, Sumant Raman. Sanju Verma.
26:06You know, Sumant S. Raman talks about how Hindus are the people who have been involved in espionage.
26:12I just want to say one thing. This is not Sanju Verma or WhatsApp University.
26:16This is the United Nations Human Rights Council which says the top 10 terror organizations in the
26:22world have a radical Islamic DNA. ISIS, Al-Shabaab, Tahrik-e-Taliban, Boko Haram, Al-Qaida.
26:29How is that relevant to what I said?
26:31Lester Miqaiba, Jayash-e-Mohamed, Abu Sayyaf group, but Tumant S. Raman finds nothing wrong with Muslims.
26:38You are talking ridiculous. Who said that? Who said that? I never said that.
26:43I never said that. Don't lie. Don't lie. Don't lie. Don't lie. Don't lie.
26:56Okay, one by one, one by one, one by one, one by one, one by one, one by one, one by one, Sanju Verma complete your point, then I am coming back to you Sumantraban, just Sanju Verma complete your point, Sanju Verma complete your point, then Sumantraban, no Gaurav I think this is unfair, the moment I start speaking he heckles I was quiet and I listened very deeply to him, I don't heckle at all, she says something, one by one, one by one, please shut up, thank you,
27:24Okay, politely, all my guests, I am requesting all my guests, go on ma'am, be it the Aligarh attack of 2008, be it the Dhuleh attack of 2006, be it the Kokrajhar attacks of 2010, be it the Muzaffar Nagar riots, be it the, you know, Raza Academy riots in Mumbai in 2013, all these attacks were carried out by radical Islamists and unfortunately in many cases the victims were also Muslims
27:53And all these attacks happened under an incompetent Congress, but Sumantraban reminds me of
27:58non Congress ga kuch burai in hoon dekha hai, na Congress ki kuh burai sunui hai, na Congress ibaran paai burai bolni hai, can I speak?
28:08Yes, Sumantraban wants to now respond, Dr. Karnasagar, yes but Sumantraban wants to respond, Sumantraban, yes,
28:18This lady will put Donald Trump to shame in the series of absurdities that she is talking about.
28:28Don't interrupt.
28:30This is my time.
28:31Don't interrupt me.
28:32Dr. Sumantraman, go on.
28:34The point I was making is very simple.
28:37The actions of a few cannot define a community was the simple action, simple statement.
28:43If she says that that is how it should be, let her say it openly.
28:47Why is she hiding?
28:48Why is she running away from saying it?
28:51Instead of saying that this attack was caused by this group, that attack was caused.
28:55Let her say it openly then.
28:57If she has the guts, let her say it.
28:58But I want to come back to the debate of the day because we seem to have digressed a little on the issue of urban naxals and the alleged Khalistani elements.
29:10Who is an urban naxal?
29:12Who is an urban naxal?
29:13Why is there no action taken against urban naxals?
29:16Who is an urban naxal?
29:18Abhiji Tahi Armitra in your view.
29:20Yes, Abhiji quickly and then Dr. Garnas Sagar.
29:23Why is no action taken against him?
29:24So, who is an urban naxal and why is no action taken against him?
29:29Yes.
29:29So, who is an urban naxal?
29:30Now, it is very clear.
29:33What was the naxal movement?
29:34They mostly used to operate in rural areas, taking out even the current naxals, the real naxals with arms.
29:42They have been operating in rural environments.
29:44They take over tribal territory.
29:45They perpetrate the worst kind of crimes against tribals, which is why you remember people like self-help groups, self-protection groups like Salva Judum were created.
29:56Who are the urban naxals?
29:57They are the overground workers of the naxals, the people who got Salva Judum banned, claiming to care about Salva Judum.
30:05Remember, why was Salva Judum banned?
30:07Because they weren't being paid salaries and things like that.
30:09That was the thing they used in order to strengthen the movement.
30:13These were the same.
30:14Who are urban naxals?
30:15They are the people who were talking.
30:16You remember when the recent shootout, when the last of the naxals were wiped out.
30:19There were people in Delhi going around calling them.
30:22Ceasefire.
30:23Negotiating, saying they want a ceasefire and this and that.
30:26Those are the urban naxals.
30:27Fair enough.
30:28That's a debate.
30:29That's a debate we'll have another day.
30:31But, you know, Dr. Karna Sagar, the last 30 seconds that I have on this part of the show,
30:34and apologies for the delay, the Prime Minister raised a very interesting point.
30:39Dr. Karna Sagar, the Prime Minister drew a parallel between Gujarat and Kerala.
30:43He said before 1987, BJP was at the periphery in Gujarat.
30:48In 1987, BJP won the Ahmedabad Municipal Corporation.
30:52Like the BJP has won Thiruvananthapuram.
30:54And from there, like post-Gujarat, the BJP created history.
30:58He sees Thiruvananthapuram being the turning point.
31:01Your take on that, sir.
31:02Yeah, Gaurav, first, let me just finish with this urban naxal debate.
31:08You see, this othering of a population is dangerous.
31:12And the kind of poison which is being injected into the body politic by this kind of hate
31:19speeches is what leads to regular mob lynching and others.
31:23You see, an urban naxal definition keeps changing.
31:27When we asked for caste censors, the Prime Minister in the Parliament called us urban naxal.
31:33And the same Parliament, when it suited him politically, announced for caste censors.
31:37So, the urban naxal definition for the Prime Minister itself keeps changing from time to time.
31:44Sir, the only point that I may want to raise, if you permit me, is when every lynching is called out, then it's good.
31:53But when only select lynchings are called out, then it does appear that it's more politics, Sumanth Raman, than the real issue.
32:00But on the point of the Prime Minister saying, you know, every lynching is bad.
32:04Call out every lynching, irrespective of who's done it.
32:08Only some lynchings are called out.
32:10Breast beating sometimes and absolute silence at others.
32:13No, some lynchings are called out by one side and some others are called out by the other side.
32:18Let every lynching be called out by all.
32:20Let every lynching be called out by all for a better society.
32:23But does the Prime Minister have a point, Sumanth Raman, when he says that like in Gujarat 1987, Thiruvananthapuram, the BJP has a foot in and now Kerala has made a connection with the BJP.
32:38No, the BJP always had a foot in in Thiruvananthapuram.
32:41That is not something which has happened newly.
32:42The fact that they won the mayoral election is new.
32:45But the BJP always had a vote bank.
32:47Had the BJP improved their vote share in the rest of the state in the recent local body elections, one could have accepted...
32:52Well, we are just putting out BJP's vote share.
32:54You can see it yourself.
32:56We are putting out BJP's vote share on your television screens.
32:59And there you see it.
33:00You know, from 2001, 5% vote share to 2021, 11% right now.
33:09Over the last five years, it has not significantly gone up is my point.
33:15And that is what your graph is also showing.
33:17Absolutely.
33:1810.53, 16 and 21.
33:20That is why I am saying that there is no great saffron resurgence in Kerala.
33:24Yes, Trivandrum which has been their stronghold.
33:26If you take this 11%, the vast majority of that 11% will be coming from the belt around Trivandrum and in southern Kerala.
33:35So, it's not that something immediately tomorrow they are going to become favourites to win the election.
33:40That's not going to happen.
33:41Okay, we'll wait and watch.
33:44I have to slip into a quick break here.
33:46I want to thank all my guests for being a part of this debate.
33:49I want to thank all my guests for being a part of this debate.
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