Shifting global norms: Trump embracing 'different logics of power, defying international law'

8 hours ago

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00:00Our coverage begins with Kedavon Gorgastani from our International Affairs desk.

00:05Yeah, that report setting the stage for Macron's speech, which took place a couple of hours ago in Davos.

00:12Yes, and Emmanuel Macron was pretty forceful with his words.

00:17He didn't directly necessarily go after Donald Trump by name or several scores,

00:23but some of the comments that he made clearly were directed at the United States and at its president.

00:30Let's take a listen to one of those comments made by the French president at Davos.

00:37And here in the epicenter of this continent, we do believe that we need more growth,

00:43we need more stability in this world, but we do prefer respect to bullies,

00:48we do prefer science to plutism, and we do prefer rule of law to brutality.

00:55Emmanuel Macron making the case for defending the transatlantic alliance and the alliance among countries.

01:04And also, at some point in the speech, he also talked about refusing a world where might makes right.

01:11And that, of course, could apply to China, but it could also apply very clearly right now to the United States.

01:17And you've really seen over the past 24 hours this escalation between the two.

01:23And even when you look at those texts that were exchanged,

01:26when you look at Emmanuel Macron's comments versus, for example,

01:30the Norwegian prime minister and Finnish president or the NATO secretary general,

01:37it seems that Emmanuel Macron is the one that's willing to go a little bit further

01:40in telling Donald Trump this is not going to work,

01:44whereas the other ones are trying to be a little bit more nice to the U.S. president, if you will.

01:50But it clearly seems, when you listen to some of the Europeans,

01:55that this has changed something in how they're viewing Donald Trump.

01:59And it's not just about Greenland.

02:01It's not just about the tariffs.

02:03It's about a new world order.

02:06And yet, Macron is still offering Trump this informal summit of G7 leaders,

02:12France, which holds the rotating presidency of the G7, on Thursday in Paris.

02:16Yes.

02:17And he also said that that was not going to happen, Emmanuel Macron,

02:21that there would be no dinner, no meeting of the G7, even informal.

02:26After offering to have Donald Trump come and meet up,

02:30obviously, the Europeans are still hoping, and Emmanuel Macron, the same,

02:34are still hoping that there's a way back from the brink.

02:37So they are continuing to say, let's talk about it.

02:40We need to discuss this.

02:42But at the same time, they, and Emmanuel Macron particularly,

02:47are sort of setting a few lines and saying, look, we're not,

02:50we can't continue like this.

02:51We need to talk it out or else, and the or else is going to be important.

02:56All right.

02:56For more, we're joined by our retired ambassador, Patrice Paoli,

03:00who's, along with other diplomats, called for France to have a more forceful voice

03:05in the region that you are most associated with, that is to say, the Middle East.

03:11But your reaction to how Emmanuel Macron is handling Donald Trump?

03:19Well, I think, in a way, first of all,

03:21I say that we cannot but agree with what was said by our President Macron today.

03:26I think it's time.

03:27The question was, in the past months, not what we were expecting from Trump.

03:32We know that we can expect a lot and probably lots of surprises.

03:37But my question was rather, what are the reactions of the Europeans?

03:41And I think that it's time that the Europeans react to the initiatives that Trump is facing.

03:48Did it send a mixed message, the French president forceful,

03:53saying we're not going to join your board of peace,

03:58but then afterwards offering by text message this meeting with Trump on Thursday

04:03after Trump has been to Davos?

04:05Well, I don't know what the intentions were in proposing this meeting,

04:08but we have always been in favor of discussions and cooperation.

04:15This is one of the main words that President Macron used today was cooperation.

04:19We need more cooperation in this world

04:20than just reacting to this violating international law

04:26or downgrading international law every day.

04:28So I think it's time that the Europeans unite and speak in one voice

04:32to defend the values that we stand for,

04:36which are multilateralism, the rule of law, international law.

04:40As a diplomat, maybe there's a question you can answer for us.

04:43What is it with text messages?

04:45First, it was the Norwegian prime minister

04:48and that message about Trump who was angry about not getting the Nobel Prize.

04:54Now it's the White House leaking Macron's text message.

04:58What is it with text messages?

04:59Well, I don't think it's the best way to make diplomacy.

05:02But, or to solve problems, I think it rather creates more...

05:08Is this the new normal or is this just sloppy?

05:10I don't know.

05:11I think it's becoming part of the communication in our world.

05:17President Trump communicates with Trump social more than,

05:21well, before giving a speech.

05:22So social networks are in any way in the forefront of communication every day.

05:28It's become a habit.

05:29Yeah, and it's not something new.

05:32And Emmanuel Macron is absolutely not alone with Donald Trump in using text message.

05:37These leaders communicate all the time.

05:41We see readouts when they have an official phone call,

05:44but they are in contact very regularly

05:46because sometimes you just can't wait

05:49to set up a long one-hour phone conversation.

05:53You just need an immediate sort of, we need to talk.

05:57This is what's happening.

05:59And Emmanuel Macron, we saw that other leaders are doing the same thing.

06:03And I think this is just the new modern way of doing diplomacy.

06:08You have the old way, the sort of formal calls,

06:11and you have the day-to-day among, especially among allies,

06:16a day-to-day sort of exchange by text message.

06:19And this is something that the French president is not unique in using.

06:23All right.

06:23The new normal for diplomacy,

06:25does it also include creating a peace committee for Gaza,

06:32ostensibly for Gaza, perhaps more,

06:35and then setting a $1 billion membership fee?

06:40No.

06:40In the beginning, as you said,

06:42the Board of Peace was dedicated to Gaza,

06:44according to the resolutions of Security Council

06:48concerning the ceasefire

06:50and the way to handle the Gaza situation.

06:55So the Board of Peace, when it was announced,

06:57could have been only dedicated to Gaza.

06:59Now it, of course, surpasses,

07:00and it's something much more...

07:02That's why I think the French position

07:04was not to join an institution

07:06which is designed to replace the United Nations, in a way.

07:10And this is quite obvious in President Trump's speeches.

07:16Because during the past week,

07:18you've seen the technocratic committee appointed

07:20for the Palestinian committee.

07:22Then the executive board,

07:24which was supposed to supervise this activity,

07:26and then the Board of Peace was supposed to be the third step.

07:29It was supposed to be dedicated to Gaza.

07:31And suddenly it's something totally different.

07:33So I think, yes, it's not acceptable.

07:36Because the French were on board at the outset quite intently,

07:41working alongside the Saudis,

07:43pushing for this getting beyond phase one period that we're in.

07:50Yes.

07:50Now are the French sidelined?

07:52Well, I don't know what the consequences

07:55of what is happening now will be tomorrow

07:57in terms of the Palestinian question.

08:00But yes, we were on board after the ceasefire was put in place.

08:07It's not a real ceasefire,

08:08but the cessation of hostilities, let's say, in Gaza.

08:12We joined.

08:12We were part of a number of committees

08:14working alongside with our partners and with the Americans

08:17to try and solve the issue

08:19or to achieve headway on this question.

08:24I don't know if we would have joined the Board of Peace

08:26on the Palestinian question,

08:28but the question is totally different anyhow.

08:31Could the Trump method work?

08:33Could it bring peace to Gaza?

08:35Well, it hasn't until now.

08:36And I think that what we see on the ground

08:38is not conducive to any kind of optimism

08:43because the cessation of hostilities is not in place.

08:47There are military actions every day.

08:50There is no real channel of humanitarian assistance

08:55coming into the Gaza Strip.

08:57So we have not fulfilled as the international community

09:00the commitments that were made in the beginning

09:03concerning the Gaza issue.

09:06So we were working as hard as we can

09:08in the committees that exist to provide assistance,

09:13humanitarian assistance,

09:14to solidify the ceasefire

09:18and work towards what we thought was the goal

09:21because the Franco-Saudi initiative

09:23is mentioned in the Security Council resolution

09:25which approved the Trump plan on Gaza.

09:29And in our view,

09:31this should lead to a political solution.

09:34One final question for you.

09:36This is the first anniversary

09:38of Donald Trump's inauguration to a second term.

09:42We've been discussing everything from Greenland to Gaza,

09:46just how much the politics of old have been upended.

09:52Why?

09:52Why is it like this?

09:54I think that we have leaders

09:57who have different logics of power

10:01who defy international law,

10:04the rule of law in general.

10:05I think that what is the case now

10:07on the international scene

10:08is probably also the case

10:10in the United States as well in many ways.

10:14So I think that it's time that we react.

10:17I think that we've been quite silent

10:19or accepting too much,

10:22always trying that you can negotiate

10:24or you can arrange things.

10:28And I think that...

10:29So a tariff war might be a good thing?

10:31Excuse me?

10:32A tariff war might be a good thing?

10:34I'm not saying that it's a good thing,

10:35but you have to react with the means you have.

10:37So we don't know...

10:38France or European Union

10:40did not declare a tariff war

10:41against the United States.

10:43But we will have to envisage

10:45what has been discussed today.

10:47I don't know how you call this in English,

10:49but the coercion...

10:51Anti-coercion instrument.

10:53Anti-coercion instrument.

10:55Yes, I think that you have to reason.

10:57The problem is to know

10:58if the Europeans will be united in this effort.

11:01Victor Orban has accepted the Board of Peace,

11:03for instance.

11:05And what we have seen until now

11:06is that the Europeans have found it difficult

11:08to, I would say,

11:12assume the same common interest.

11:14And I hope that the bilateral temptation

11:17will not prevail

11:18and that there will be a real effort

11:22and a real unification of European efforts

11:25to protect the role of law

11:28and multilateralism

11:28because that is what it's all about today.

11:31Patrice Pauli setting the table

11:33for the drama still to come

11:35at a EU summit

11:36that's been called for Thursday.

11:39I want to thank you so much

11:40for joining us, Ambassador.

11:42I want to thank you as well,

11:43Kedavon Ghorjastani.

11:44Yeah, the United States,

11:46as Ambassador Pauli was saying,

11:47certainly keeping the planet's attention

11:49the past 12 months.

Shifting global norms: Trump embracing 'different logics of power, defying international law'

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