00:00In the aftermath of the latest JNU
00:08sloganeering controversy on the heels
00:11of a clear judicial ruling that refused
00:13bail to Umar Khalid and Sharjeev Imam
00:16fresh questions are being raised about
00:18intent, context and whether repeated
00:22patterns of conduct cross the line from
00:25dissent into defiance of the law. Is this
00:28merely student protest in a university
00:31space meant for debate and disagreement
00:33or does it point to something more
00:36organized, something that challenges not
00:40just campus discipline but the authority
00:43of the courts themselves. To unpack the
00:46legal, constitutional and institutional
00:49implications of this movement I am being
00:51joined by one of India's topmost
00:55constitutional expert, former
00:59Solicitor General of India Mr. Harish Salve
01:03joins me. Mr. Salve really appreciate your
01:05time here on India today. You have
01:08previously stated that context and course
01:13of conduct are crucial in such cases
01:16beyond isolated speeches. In light of the
01:21JNU sloganeering post the verdict, does this
01:24really validate the prosecution's narrative
01:27of orchestrated anti-national activism on
01:31campuses?
01:33See there is, it is, it's worrisome because it
01:40brings to fore what kind of hate laboratories are
01:46being run in our universities. I mean we taxpayers pay for
01:52these universities you know and it is not for our
01:55children to be taught these kind of values. You may have
01:59your differences with the Prime Minister, with the
02:01Home Minister, you may disagree with the government. We
02:04used to also, I remember in 70s, we used to have sharp
02:08disagreements with Mrs. Gandhi's government when we
02:11were in college but nobody ever used this kind of
02:14expressions. Even the students protest in the emergency
02:17time never used these kind of expressions when the whole
02:20opposition was locked up. There is some thing which has
02:24vitiated the atmosphere and brought this kind of
02:27vocabulary into the discourse in universities and I think that
02:31is a very serious matter which needs to be considered. See today's
02:37warfare in the present situation is very different from the
02:44warfare of the 60s, 70s and 80s. Today is information warfare. Our
02:49neighbouring country feeds into this narrative because they
02:53cannot take India on. So you have, you have physical
02:57terrorism by terrorists crossing over and committing incidents and
03:02then your intellectual terrorism by feeding this kind of narrative
03:06to our children and bringing them into such a state of mind that
03:10these innocent youngsters who should otherwise be studying
03:15are wasting their time and getting converted into these kind of
03:19negative, I mean I'm also tempted to use the expression urban
03:23naxalites and this you're creating a generation or you're creating a
03:30group of people who can be misguided they may be but they can
03:36create trouble for the country as we go on. So we need to put this down
03:41firmly. Now contempt of supreme court etc is not something which I
03:46think may be the solution but something needs to be done to fix this
03:50because this happens it's been happening once too often in this
03:53university. Okay but Mr. Salvi are you really
03:56seeing this as a contempt of the supreme court?
04:03It can there's no contempt of supreme court and whenever one talks of
04:08contempt of supreme court I am reminded of what
04:11lord denning used to say you know the power of contempt is not to
04:15protect the dignity of the judges he said
04:17that must rest on stronger foundations if
04:22if these youngsters are saying supreme court is right or wrong or something
04:25that only shows their mindset I haven't seen what they said
04:30if somebody has said that the supreme court has acted corruptly or has taken a
04:34bribe or is a partisan then that that may be another matter
04:37if motives are being cast for the supreme court judgment
04:41but then again whether whether or not contempt is the way out
04:47is something which is not the best course I think the first of all the university
04:53authorities have to deal with this firmly very firmly secondly the police if necessary the
04:59police has to deal with this but this is a campus problem campus
05:03problems have been there from the time I mean I'm now almost 70 years old I've seen
05:07campus problems for the last 45 last 55 years so campus problems are nothing new
05:15campus problems have to be dealt with first of all in the campus and I think this campus has become
05:21a hornet's nest and this needs to be sorted out first
05:27and then of course if it has reached a point where the police feel that this is growing beyond
05:33mere campus nonsense and is spreading further it has to be dealt with firmly
05:37okay since you say that this is a campus problem what would you
05:41tell those who would say that here is a university curtailing the liberty of its own students
05:49surely mr salvia university cannot be a monastery
05:55it's not a monastery but I must also tell you as we say what's the extent of your fundamental right
06:01your right to swing your hand ends where my nose begins okay so you must realize all all rights have
06:08limitations you cannot nobody has a fundamental right to say I will dig a grave for the for the
06:16prime minister and I'll dig a grave for the home minister and if this is the kind of vocabulary which
06:20is coming it's a mindset which is coming and these are not isolated incidents there is this is becoming a
06:27hate factory this uh university repeatedly I have heard and I I'd be delighted if I'm if I have got a
06:35wrong impression but I I believe they have come up with slogans which says uh India should be
06:42I have somebody had sent me a tape of they're saying Punjab maangi azadi ye maangi azadi wo state maangi azadi
06:53what sort of what is the education which is being imparted to these people see universities are not
07:01meant to be a taxpayer funded establishment for a particular political ideology to be fed to students
07:10and if that is what is going on we need to have a serious look at what's going on in this university
07:15okay then uh what uh implications uh does this denial of bail have for judicial handling
07:23uh of uh free speech versus sedition in student activism especially uh drawing parallels to the
07:31original event uh which had umar khalid and sharjil imam
07:36um unfortunately the debate has been hijacked by academics who have not read the judgment nor would
07:45they know the law i'm sorry to say i've heard some of the debates the judgment recites not just speeches
07:54but a whole evidence and and right now believe me a bail judgment does not go into the evidence in detail
08:01the judges must have seen material on the basis of which they were recorded a finding that there was
08:06a larger conspiracy being planned the speeches were a part of that so i don't know how this free speech
08:14debate has come to occupy uh front uh and center see you cannot vivisect a conspiracy to commit
08:24a sedition of to commit a revolt against the state by threatening to break up the state by inciting
08:33communal violence etc with the sole intent to disrupt the state if that is the plan and then everything
08:41which is a part of the conspiracy becomes an unlawful act you cannot dissect them and say this is a lawful
08:49act if i drive in my car lawfully within speed limits to commit a crime and my going to a particular
08:58place my travel my actions which may otherwise be innocent in themselves if they are part of a larger
09:04conspiracy then they all become actionable so please understand we are talking of a conspiracy to commit a
09:10crime you can't say oh but there was only a speech who said that the supreme court has denied them
09:15bail only because they gave speeches this is an unlawful activities act which has been applied not the
09:21provisions relating to sedition okay or to uh speech then do you see this as a direct echo of the 2020
09:30what was seen as tukre tukre sloganeering that implicated umar khalid and sharjil imam and
09:37uh how should the authorities then respond to prevent any escalation
09:44i i do not know what exactly happened in jnu even the news reports are as general as general can be
09:50if i don't think the news reports suggest and i could be wrong and i'm i'll be very sorry if i'm
09:55wrong because this is terrible but the news report suggests that there are some students we've seen this
10:01happen when the when the parliament attack uh death penalty was given we saw students there in in in
10:10in this very university saying i mean i hope i'm wrong but this is what i've seen in in news reports
10:16saying bharat tere tukre honge and hum sharminda hai tere katil jinda hai you know this kind of thing
10:21which goes on so these people what is being taught in this universities do not have faith in the executive
10:27government do not have faith in your elected representatives do not have faith in any
10:31institutions and this india the idea of india must be destroyed now this is what is being taught in
10:38this university and i think it's a very serious matter which goes way beyond free speech okay uh
10:43sir i have just enough time for my last question uh so mr salve uh don't you think that such cases
10:49only add fuel to the fire why not let it die down its own death
10:58you are absolutely right uh maria these as i started by saying if there is a problem within
11:05the university it must be confined to the walls of the campus but that doesn't mean that there is
11:11no problem with the university there is a serious problem with the university and this needs to be fixed
11:18if the problem is beyond that of the university if the police has reason to believe that this goes
11:23there are external influences which are using the university to stir up trouble and using these
11:31students to stir up trouble and the students have ties or nexus with outside forces then it takes a
11:37completely different view so we do not know what's going on there but if it is only misguided students
11:46we need to fix the university that is creating this kind of hate in these minds but if there is
11:53something more or not my suspicion is there is a lot more this has become the playground of negative politics
11:59and noxial politics all right uh harish salve thank you for your time thank you so much for joining us
12:10thank you
