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Documentary, Thatcher: A Very British Revolution S01E04
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00:00Good morning and welcome to a special format this morning because it's a special event,
00:05the visit of the Prime Minister. We're delighted you're here now, particularly with the summer
00:10cold as well. They're always the most difficult to get rid of, but they don't really bother one.
00:18Is what we see when you're on television the real you?
00:21I'm very nervous and it isn't until I lose myself in an argument that I really am quite natural.
00:27I'd known David Frost practically all my life because we came from two adjacent Suffolk villages
00:35and then we'd been in TVM together. I think he said, you know, I'm interviewing Margaret Thatcher.
00:43How do you think people perceive you in the country, the general public? How do they
00:47perceive you as a person and a leader? I never quite know. I read how they perceive me and it
00:54doesn't seem to have anything in common with what I am. I think what was happening was that the public
01:00were rumbling that she herself was becoming a changing personality and not always an attractive personality.
01:11I just picked a lot of adjectives, good ones like visionary, clear-sighted, bold, dynamic, single-minded
01:17Oh, goodness me. They're all quite big, aren't they? Those are good ones, right? And then they're
01:21intolerant, uncaring, aggressive, hectoring and so on. Harsh, etc. Yes.
01:26I believe that I influenced David Frost because I introduced him to the knowledge of the phrase,
01:34the TBW factor. There have been lots of things you'll have read in the papers about people finding
01:40at the canvassing for the Shire elections that some people were talking about, the TBW factor.
01:45Now, does the central office... What, the TV? Well, the central office used this phrase,
01:49if they haven't told you, they should have told you. TVW? Television? Not quite. It means,
01:55actually, that bloody woman factor, in fact. Oh, dear, how dreadful. Isn't that awful? Yes.
02:00But they don't tell you. See, they don't tell you. No, they don't tell me, but I think they don't
02:04tell me because they know it isn't true. I didn't know about the, what? The TBW.
02:09TBW, not TBW. Oh, no, I have no idea. Oh, no, no, no, TBW. I remember actually watching it and
02:16thinking, oh, my goodness, I should never have said that to David over that drink last week. But
02:23it was in circulation, this phrase. But I'm not going to vote for you again because of that bloody
02:29woman. That's all for this morning. Our thanks to the Prime Minister. Thank you to you for joining us.
02:35Thank you for joining us.
03:05Memory is a wonderful thing, it plays wonderful games with you and you can use it to cover
03:11up all sorts of all sorts of pains and problems.
03:19I personally thought that Margaret Thatcher was the most extraordinary leader.
03:25She confronted the most difficult issues, minor strikes, the Falklands War, the Brighton
03:29Bomb, she managed to deal with all of that with remarkable courage and certainty.
03:35That might help everybody if I clean my specs.
03:41I was Norman Tevitt's right-hand man and it was my job to deliver to him and through him
03:47to the Prime Minister a strategy which was totally focused on winning the 1987 election.
03:55I had a very good relationship with Michael Dobbs.
03:59He was part of the central office team and was expressing the central office view which
04:05of course was very largely my own view, we'd formed it together.
04:10All of the polls are telling us that that sense of direction and that sense of certainty which
04:16the Conservative Party and Maggie Thatcher had offered in the early years had gone.
04:25It's been a bad month for the government.
04:27There's no question now, we're in a fierce three-party battle.
04:30The poll says Labour with 39% would win a general election with an overall majority.
04:36Gallup also showed Mrs Thatcher's own rating plunging.
04:40It wasn't people who were changing their views about what it is they wanted.
04:45It was that the government wasn't showing the leadership that it had previously done.
04:52She was the leader, she was the Prime Minister, she was a great Prime Minister.
04:55What we wanted to do is to get her back on track.
05:00We asked for a meeting with the Prime Minister, a political meeting, a strategy meeting where
05:05we could set out a plan that would take us from where we were at the time, we were in
05:10deep trouble, to a successful election.
05:15I had one job spec and that was to make sure that Mrs Thatcher remained Prime Minister.
05:21So long as she won general elections, I was doing my job.
05:27So the meeting begins at Chequers, Saatchi and Saatchi, who were the party's advertising
05:32agency, had done some vox pop film.
05:37They talked to what you would call ordinary folk.
05:42So we commissioned some focus groups and some research about what people thought of the
05:45Conservative Party, what it expected, what it wanted and what it wasn't getting.
05:51The meeting didn't quite work out like that.
05:55It is, as I recall, an endless amount of people saying about Mrs Thatcher, that bloody woman,
06:05again and again.
06:06And she basically, as I recall, sort of stopped the whole thing and said, I don't want to hear
06:11any more of this.
06:12Her solution to this was to pick up my charts with all the research on it and throw them
06:18into the corner and say, enough of that.
06:22She was extremely upset and she just didn't want to hear any more of it.
06:26And I think she was absolutely right.
06:28I mean, she just, it was, the whole atmosphere changed completely.
06:31The Saatchi and Saatchi boys were sent out of the meeting with their tail between their
06:35legs.
06:36In her early years, she would have admired being called that bloody woman.
06:41That was the Iron Maiden, the toughness of the whole thing.
06:46But I think she took it incredibly personally.
06:49It told me that she had changed.
06:51We never got round to discussing how we were going to make her the winner of the next election.
06:57She didn't give us a chance.
06:59She wouldn't listen.
07:00Mrs. Thatcher, who's faced a rising chorus of Tory misgivings about the government's direction
07:11and style, has told senior colleagues that she's not going to change her policies.
07:16And she's determined to lead the Conservatives into the next election.
07:18Well, actually, I've always voted Conservative, but I must admit I'm going to change.
07:23You are?
07:24Why?
07:25I could have all the unemployment.
07:26I don't think Maggie Thatcher's really interested.
07:28I have to take many tough decisions.
07:32We have to take decisions sometimes to close factories, to close businesses, or not to rescue
07:36them.
07:37The number of people out of work has gone up sharply to a new record level.
07:43Today's government figures show more than 3,340,000 people are on the dole.
07:50As a man knows not a lot about politics, I don't think they're doing enough.
07:55They're not doing enough?
07:56I don't think she listens to people.
07:58I just think she's one-minded.
08:01I understand that in the long run, people's hope for a job is to get flourishing factories,
08:06flourishing business, but the short-term decisions would appear hard.
08:12Freedom incurs responsibility.
08:14That's why many men fear it and many women fear it.
08:17I can't run away from it.
08:19By 1985, it is fair to say that she'd got a reputation of being bossy.
08:26I used to say, be relaxed and don't be as domineering as, you know, let yourself
08:35settle a bit.
08:36But, you know, it's very difficult to succeed because if you're being yourself,
08:42you'll be yourself.
08:43And you give them the slightest, slightest reason to have a go, you'll have a go, will
08:50you?
08:51Well, look, I cannot do everything.
08:53Some of the work that is being done is fantastically successful.
08:57Don't you think that's the way to persuade more companies to come to this region and get
09:02more jobs as I want them for the people who are unemployed?
09:06Not always standing there as moaning minis.
09:08Now, stop it.
09:10She once said to me, journalists, brittle, insubstantial people who have never achieved
09:18much in their own lives but are only too willing to criticise others who were trying.
09:23I felt put in my place.
09:25That is the way to get more jobs.
09:27Not your way.
09:28I want more jobs.
09:30Now cheer up and go and boost the success and you're much more likely to get more jobs
09:34then.
09:35Did you work with her to try and make her image more empathetic?
09:40Well, I don't try to achieve the impossible, but what I tried to do was to make her aware
09:50of these things and to try to moderate her presentation because she wasn't born to express compassion.
10:05She liked my then husband, Tom, and so we used to get invited to Number 10 when she had people
10:15visiting.
10:16And I just kind of tagged along.
10:21I was working for Yorkshire Television and someone in the science office had this idea
10:25about talking to eminent women who'd made their way in a masculine world.
10:31With some temerity, I have to say, we said, well, how about Mrs. Thatcher?
10:37And we all went, oh, she'll never do that.
10:40So I wrote quite informally to her.
10:43I think if she talked to anyone in her office of her colleagues, they would have said, would
10:49be rather good for your reputation, even your image, if you were shown to be just an ordinary
10:57woman trying to do a difficult job well.
11:00Margaret Thatcher leads a double life.
11:03Wife and mother and iron lady.
11:06How does she fit the two halves together?
11:09When we came to do the interview, I said, you know, Prime Minister, I think we could actually
11:15do a little bit with your hair and face.
11:17Oh, what?
11:18Oh, what?
11:19She said.
11:20I said, well, I think we could soften your hairline a little bit.
11:24Because it looked as though it was a helmet, you know, stiff.
11:28So the makeup girl did that.
11:29And she said, oh, yeah, I think that's much better.
11:32You've referred to the importance of your upbringing, to your politics and your philosophy.
11:37Can you tell me a little bit about your home?
11:39Well, home really was very small and we had no mod cons.
11:44And I remember having a dream that the one most thing I, one thing I really wanted was
11:51to live in a nice house, you know, a house with more things than we had.
11:55When you say no mod cons, what do you mean?
11:57We had not got hot water.
12:00We only had a cold water tap.
12:02We had to heat all the hot water in a copper.
12:05There was an outside toilet.
12:08Many, many times I can remember my mother saying, well, I said, oh, my friends have got more.
12:13Well, we're not situated like that.
12:16And I used to say.
12:17And you accepted it?
12:18Well, we're not situated like that.
12:19One kicked against it.
12:20Of course one kicked against it.
12:22They had more things than we did.
12:24Of course one kicked against it.
12:26She was amenable.
12:27More than willing.
12:29And she was just like another girlfriend.
12:34My father was chairman of the finance committee.
12:37And my goodness, our town never got into debt.
12:39My goodness me, every money was spent carefully.
12:43Nothing spent extravagantly.
12:45And eventually, he was on the council for such a long time.
12:49And eventually became an alderman.
12:50And eventually became an alderman.
12:51We don't have alderman now.
12:52And eventually, when the political complexion changed, they threw him off being an alderman.
12:56And I put my finger on the next question so I wouldn't lose it.
13:01And I looked up at her.
13:04And to my astonishment, I saw that there were tears in her eyes.
13:12I remember when my father was turned off that council, making a speech for the last time.
13:18Very emotional.
13:20In honor, I took up his gun.
13:24In honor, I laid down.
13:26And that's how he felt.
13:29I mean, I was quite gobsmacked that she was prepared to open up to that degree.
13:38You fulfilled a lot of social duties as well that were part of your religion.
13:42Did you feel that the religion...
13:43I was with her for 36 years.
13:44We talked a lot about her upbringing and her family life and her mother being the seamstress,
13:51her father being a lay preacher, a counsellor.
13:55Very strictly brought up, very strictly.
13:58It was absolutely paramount that she did what her father expected of her.
14:08I think one of the sadnesses of Margaret Thatcher's family life is that she didn't see much of her father in her age.
14:17Which is rather surprising because she talked quite a bit about him.
14:20But she didn't when she had opportunities to do so, go and visit him and things like that.
14:25And that was, to Thatcher watchers, a bit of a surprise.
14:31The reality of inner city response to a prime ministerial visit.
14:42As Mrs Thatcher ventured last month into Glasgow, where not a single seat remains in Tory hands.
14:47Today, as they slump in the polls, the Tories are jittering.
14:51Unless they can wipe out Mrs Thatcher's uncaring image, the Tories increasingly fear it could cost them a third election victory.
14:59Mrs Thatcher wasn't great with members of the public.
15:12I used to ask myself, how did she get so far in politics?
15:17Because this was a real gap in her character as a politician.
15:24Because most politicians, without falsehood, without insincerity, can relate to the electorate.
15:32Tory advisers now confirm that this is the side of the prime minister they want more and more to show over the two years run up to the next election.
15:40Well, it's quite awake. Do you want a pill?
15:44Well, sometimes it's difficult to avoid looking uncaring when you're dealing with difficult issues.
15:51And I did what I could to advise her on her image.
15:58But, again, that's not easy with an extremely powerful, extremely successful woman who thought that the public should give her credit for the number of things that we had got right.
16:14Throughout all of the problems we've had, everyone knows that this government will run the finances of the nation in a sound way.
16:22What I would call popular capitalism.
16:25You know, more blue collar workers own their own homes than ever before.
16:29More young people. More people have the chance of owning shares.
16:33She also, of course, by then, so dominated the political agenda that every decision seemed to involve her and her name, her reputation, her competence were at stake in every decision taken on.
16:47Mrs Thatcher herself is now out to show how tender is the right.
16:52How old, Sir David? Seven months.
16:55Seven months.
16:56Seven months.
16:57More people, I hope, have the chance of savings and the savings keeping their value.
17:01Caring capitalism as well as...
17:03This is caring capitalism.
17:05August saw Tory support drop to 24%.
17:20Tebbit's task is to pull out of the slump in the polls.
17:24He'll be beating the drum and bashing the opposition.
17:28I wouldn't say that I really relished being asked to do the job of chairman.
17:33But, after all, if the prime minister says that she wants you to do something else, you do something else.
17:39She's the boss.
17:42One of the great sadnesses and challenges of the run-up to the 1987 election was Margaret's relationship with Norman Tebbit.
17:53Norman had been one of her closest advisers.
17:57What I don't think that she realized was just how badly physically and, in other ways, Norman had been damaged by the Brighton bomb.
18:06And was also having to take care of a wife who had been confined to a wheelchair 24 hours a day.
18:15He had, in my view, all of the attributes to be a huge success as party chairman.
18:22But what he didn't have was the space and the time to do the job properly.
18:27But it also coincided with a time when I think Margaret was beginning to grow more suspicious about people around her.
18:35And her relationship with Norman deteriorated really quite sharply.
18:42I think what I would say is that Norman Tebbit was, from the very beginning, the arch-Thatcherite.
18:54But I was aware that there was some discontent with his chairmanship of the Tory party because he could be wayward and he could be difficult.
19:07I don't think he was all that interested in running a party.
19:14Norman Tebbit came into Number 10 looking black as thunder.
19:19When he was in a bad mood, his face just went black with fury.
19:24And he was clutching a folder of press cuttings to show to the Prime Minister that the media had been encouraged to write disobliging stuff about him.
19:34It was very irritating at times for me, as the party chairman, to see reports in the press which were alleged to have come from Number 10, which were critical of me and what I was doing.
19:51I said, look, it makes it difficult if there are reports of a rift between the Prime Minister and the chairman of her political party.
20:04She seemed to be surprised at the fact that it purported to come from Number 10.
20:11And at 10 o'clock she...
20:14I think Bernard Ingham would have denied it.
20:18Certainly there were some people, and I don't know, I think it was the Tory central office probably, but I don't know, who were briefing against him.
20:30But it wasn't me.
20:31She was genuinely shocked, but he was paranoid and she was paranoid.
20:39And it was a terrible meeting, and after that I was very clear that this was madness.
20:46And years later I discovered that she had been told that Norman and I were plotting against her to get rid of her and replace her with Norman.
21:00And what's more that we were plotting, apparently, to do this while he was still in his hospital bed recovering from the Brighton bomb.
21:09Of course I would have liked to have been Prime Minister, but the injuries which my wife had incurred caused me to believe that I owed my loyalty to her.
21:27So that was closed to me.
21:32But I think that everybody who is in a high position around the leader is a potential threat.
21:44That's just part of the facts of life.
21:47Any other points that we wish to raise generally before we go on to the main business?
21:52There's that famous Whitehall bus under which Prime Ministers potentially might always walk and then somebody has to succeed.
22:01It's whether they walk or whether they're given a little shove, though, isn't it?
22:05And a question of who might be driving the bus.
22:08I think she regarded the Number 10 staff, the private secretaries and all the other people who worked in Number 10, as much more of a family than she considered her ministers.
22:25They, in a sense, were rivals.
22:27Everything is fairly close at hand at the beginning of having a very, very small kitchen.
22:44And as you can see, we all have to be very, very economically spaced.
22:51She would often cook things for us in the evening in Number 10 when we were speechwriting.
23:00I wouldn't say she was an imaginative cook.
23:04There were frozen shepherd's pies in the freezer in the flat at Number 10, and she would get these out and warm them up.
23:11How do you manage about things like getting your groceries in? You can't pop out to the shops and...
23:17No, I can't, but, you know, one leaves messages in the kitchen.
23:20Please, running out of pepper. No more mayonnaise left. Simply must have some clear soup.
23:29The private Margaret Thatcher really wasn't very different from the public Margaret Thatcher.
23:33Charles Powell deals with foreign affairs.
23:36Robin, the European community governments have had to decide on 12 June.
23:40He and the principal private secretary sit beyond the great doors of the cabinet room.
23:45Well, that's a nuisance.
23:46She used to come and have supper with us in our very small muse house on her way home from Chequers on a Sunday night.
23:52My wife was the host of these small suppers.
23:55And Carla used to invite, really, a variety of people who she thought Margaret Thatcher would find stimulating.
24:02An artist, a dress designer, something like that.
24:06Mr Ian MacEllen...
24:11She quite often gave them a pretty rough time, I have to say.
24:14Margaret Thatcher's problem was she...
24:16She tended to treat everyone as a potential critic or enemy, as though it was privateists' questions.
24:21So some inoffensive designer would suddenly find himself berated about something he knew nothing of,
24:29as though he was somebody who was trying to bring her down or undermine the government.
24:34She didn't sit still for a moment.
24:36I don't like the table to peter out at this end.
24:38She enjoyed work, it was what drove her forward and what she existed for, really.
24:43We've got a few minutes between meetings now, so if you could take some work up to her in the red box.
24:47At weekends, there are usually about four of those.
24:50And at nights, usually two.
24:53And I always tackle them at nights, because I want to know what's in them,
24:57in case there's anything that has to be done extremely quickly.
25:00But it isn't any trouble to do them.
25:03And I know the day will come when I don't have to do them.
25:08And I know I won't like it when it does come.
25:12She never stopped.
25:14And that did bring a conflict in her life, because I think, like nearly all working women,
25:21I don't know any working women who don't feel guilt that they're not giving more attention to their family.
25:26You took your bar exams and were successful and became embarrassed.
25:31And you went back to work very quickly after having your twins.
25:34Now, did you receive a lot of criticism from your colleagues?
25:38No, I didn't.
25:40But again, I remember that.
25:42They arrived and they were very small and going to need a lot of looking after.
25:47And of course, you know, something you do change when you've had children.
25:51And I remember thinking, if I'm not careful, I'm never going to make an effort to get back to a sort of intellectual pursuit.
26:00I'm just going to be so overcome with this.
26:04And I really ought to be able to do both.
26:07And it was a conscious decision that I really must both look after children and do something else as well.
26:14Well, the challenges of being prime minister and a mother were pretty considerable.
26:20And to be perfectly frank, she rather failed.
26:23She didn't have time enough for her children.
26:26In one case, she rather overindulged Mark.
26:29In the other, she probably underindulged Carol.
26:32I think Margaret was a bit tough on Carol.
26:35Yes, I think it's...
26:37I think it's possible she was.
26:40I have a vivid memory of going up to the flat and into the sitting room to discuss some point with Margaret Thatcher.
26:49And in the course of our discussions, I heard a rustling in a cupboard in the corner of the room.
26:56And I said, what's that? Are there mice up here?
26:59And she said, no, that's Carol.
27:01So I said, why is Carol in that cupboard?
27:05And Margaret Thatcher said, well, you know, she was wearing jeans.
27:08So I told her to hide herself while you were coming in.
27:14Well, she really idolised Mark.
27:17And she didn't idolise Carol.
27:20I'm not saying that one was more loved or less loved, but somehow Mark could do no wrong.
27:27Mrs. Thatcher is determined to stick to her present policies.
27:34That was the clear message today as party officials tried to reassure their members.
27:38But there's little encouragement for them tonight in a poll conducted in four Tory-held marginals.
27:43The Labour Party would win an overall majority if a general election was held now.
27:48Today's defiant message from Downing Street is a challenge to any potential opponent of Mrs. Thatcher's leadership of Britain and of her party.
27:59At the age of 60, the lady's still not for turning or for changing.
28:04I think that right from the start, she felt that her position was precarious.
28:12That sense of precariousness that she had was actually a very useful aid to her.
28:19It's like the adrenaline that you need, the feeling that you better keep your eye on the ball, because if you don't, it could all slip.
28:29Well, Margaret Thatcher thought, and this is perhaps one of the more paranoid things about her,
28:35she had to be on her guard against most of her colleagues.
28:38And that was really where the term, I think, one of us came, or one of my people, tended to come from.
28:44She always complained there weren't enough of her people in the Cabinet.
28:47And one used to remind her, well, you appointed the Cabinet.
28:50Good evening. The British government has a dramatic new look tonight.
29:04The Prime Minister's Cabinet reshuffle has turned out to be far more wide-reaching than expected.
29:09This time, we had to do more the traditional reshuffle, where some ministers are very generous and lay down their portfolios,
29:16and for new ones to get their foot on the first rung of the ladder.
29:21An ageing lion gets rid of all competitors.
29:25Most of today's moves show a concern with growth and jobs as central issues in the next election.
29:31She put me in the Cabinet. I was a member of the Lords. I wasn't elected. I could never be a rival.
29:41She knew whatever happened, whatever happened, I could never succeed her.
29:46It was partly through me that David Young came into government.
29:50A very able guy. But he has not got much political judgement.
29:57And indeed, somewhere at the back of his mind was the idea that he should take over my role,
30:05which he felt he would do rather better.
30:10They were, in many respects, competing for the Prime Minister's ear.
30:15And that was to be a relationship between Norman and David that was to become very difficult.
30:22Margaret had always enjoyed his advice and his company and his comforting.
30:28David had a very good way of comforting the Prime Minister,
30:32whereas Norman would often deliberately go in there and shake her up.
30:35And this is what? Painting, decorating.
30:37She knew that I had the same belief system that she had.
30:41She knew that I'd been an entrepreneur at a time, I must tell you, when there were very few.
30:47I was a self-starter, and she liked self-starters.
31:03Oh, hello. Hello. Now, we're still doing the, uh, celebration, but I haven't seen the six tasks yet.
31:10I was going to read it to her to get familiar with the words first.
31:16With capitalism and free enterprise, there are no boundaries of class or creed or colour.
31:23Everyone can climb the ladder as high as their talents will take them.
31:28Socialists often start by distributing wealth.
31:31They forget it first has to be created.
31:35But the truth is, Mr. Chairman, that the creation of wealth is the most fundamental of all social services.
31:42We are battling for a Britain free from class conflict.
31:46Where priority is the right of... where property...
31:50Unlike the majority of conservative politicians at that time, she was totally unafflicted by what you might call middle-class guilt.
32:03There's a consistent tendency in our society today to downgrade the creators of wealth.
32:10What those critics apparently can't stomach is that wealth creators have a tendency to acquire wealth in the process of creating it for others.
32:20You know, we haven't really got what we're meaning on this, have we?
32:23It's too, um, it's too long. Much has already been achieved. Go on.
32:28But we need more privatisation and more changes in the city to make it easier to buy chairs.
32:35Uh, shares. Huh.
32:37Privatisation was probably the single most successful innovation of the Thatcher government.
32:52We were selling industry to the man and woman in the street.
32:56Now one can simply buy shares over the counter of a shop or bank.
33:01It used to be conventional wisdom that we couldn't denationalise any state-owned companies.
33:06Not anymore. Privatisation is popular.
33:11And in the 1987 election, these were our strongest supporters.
33:17The sale of half the shares of British Telecom is expected to raise several thousand million pounds.
33:23Good evening. The government's going ahead with the sale of British Airways in the new year.
33:28We've denationalised Jaguar, Sea Link, and British Telecom.
33:33But almost a week to go before the closing date for applications for shares in British gas, it's already become...
33:37The British Steel Corporation is to be privatised.
33:40Labour's industry spokesman, Brian Gould, condemned the plan.
33:43It was another example, he said, of the taxpayer footing the bill, but the city picking up the profit.
33:50She absorbed privatisation into her philosophy of individual freedom.
33:55It was something that had never been done before.
33:57So we were treading new ground.
33:59Since 1979, a third of the state sector employing 600,000 people has been sold into private hands.
34:08We free the whole thing up.
34:10That comprises the freedom to do sensible things and the freedom to do foolish things.
34:17Offer please again, offer.
34:18The city's big attraction is that it's free. Free to make money as it wants. Free to make its own rules and police them.
34:25The stock exchange, Lloyd's, even dealers selling shares to the public, all have the power to regulate themselves.
34:32Competition is the name of the new game. The city's turn to have restrictive practices abolished.
34:38Call it the Big Bang. Even limited protections against fraud and abuse could be swept aside in the explosion.
34:45Without adequate and effective regulation, the temptation to bend the rules and cut corners will be overwhelming.
34:52Six-figure salaries have become commonplace as foreign firms have fought to buy the best teams in a job's merry-go-round.
34:59Half at four, what are you making now?
35:01These dealers are the city's hottest properties. They won't talk openly about what they're paid, but it can run to £100,000 a year or more.
35:08What is your aim in life? It's doing lots of money, really.
35:12I don't think she expected it. I think she rather thought that everybody else was like her and naturally thrifty.
35:18The stock market will be a car park in five years' time. I'll have made a fortune and that's what I want.
35:23Some of the arrogant displays of wealth are jarred very much with me and with the Prime Minister.
35:33You've expressed great concern about the city salaries and you've said it causes me great concern. I understand the resentment you said.
35:43The city in fact earns for everyone in the United Kingdom, for our balance of payment, £7.5 billion a year.
35:51Without that, we wouldn't be in surplus as we are.
35:57Get rich quick is better than get poor quick, which is what had been happening before we got into office.
36:04A lot of these people, the capitalists, have given Margaret Thatcher a bad name.
36:09And it's they who should be responsible, not her.
36:13Because she did not believe in excess. She believed in responsibility.
36:20The thought that rich people might actually be a bit parasitic on society and might be avoiding their obligations,
36:31I don't think will have been very strong in her.
36:34In terms of her personal attitudes, when she met people who were plainly grasping and greedy,
36:39she would have had the same attitude as you or me to that.
36:43She won't have liked it very much, but her politics tended to encourage it and I'm sure she knew that.
36:50Under Thatcherism, and this is what your critics would say, the nation is not one nation, but a divided nation.
37:00Between North and South, between the prosperous suburbs and the inner cities,
37:05between the employed and the unemployed, between the poverty-stricken millions and the whiz-kids of the big bang in the city.
37:13You ask what I know you call the gut question, right, it's gone to the gut, it's gone to the jugular.
37:19Let me finish it. More home ownership, far more share ownership, far more savings and building society accounts.
37:28This is what is building one nation, as every earner becomes a shareholder, as more and more people own their homes.
37:37Some of our finest companies were started by people who came from modest backgrounds.
37:54And what was their driving force? They were ambitious to make money. Yes, and what's wrong with that?
38:03To give their children a better start in life than they've had. These are the virtues which we conservatives applaud.
38:11This is that she was doing something she revels in, making history. Wearing a full-length dress and hat as a concession to the Muslim faith,
38:30she became the first British Prime Minister to visit the Gulf and perhaps more significantly the first woman political leader to be received by the Saudis.
38:39Margaret Thatcher regarded herself as Britain's number one salesman, for companies but for the nation as a whole, for people,
38:46and had no scruples about that for her, jobs for what matter.
38:49And the impressive line-up of princes and ministers who greeted her showed the Saudis do mean business.
38:56She always went out into the world as a sort of ambassador for Britain in September, when Parliament was in recess.
39:04So they're very good, not only for advanced training, but for striking from earth to ground.
39:09We went to Dubai and Bahrain and Emirates and all that.
39:13She was there, seeking contracts as well as anything else.
39:21Mark turned up completely unheralded in Oman, and we immediately recognised that this could be interpreted as him feathering his own nest, as it were,
39:37at the Prime Minister's expense, and we were pretty ratty about it.
39:42I think it provoked a diplomatic problem for the Foreign Office, because they were very disturbed.
39:52And my colleague, Michael Alexander, who was the Foreign Affairs Private Section No. 10,
39:59certainly warned the Prime Minister that there could be difficulties.
40:04And I don't think she responded very well to what he said.
40:11The national story of the hour is that row over Mrs Thatcher's son. It just won't go away.
40:22Now, the row is over the role she played in winning a £300 million contract in Oman for a British firm.
40:28Her son, Mark, is a salesman for the company and visited Oman at the same time as his mother.
40:33In fact, the two of them met twice in the time that they were there.
40:38The implication of the story was that she was making special pleading for a contract from which Mark would benefit financially.
40:47I don't think she recognised that there could be, at least conceived to be, a conflict of interest.
40:54People suspected that there was an element of corruption about it, and one could see why.
41:00Prime Minister, you hadn't answered the question as to when you were in Oman.
41:06Did you know of your son's financial interest in the cementation bid?
41:11I answer for what I do. What are they saying I did wrong?
41:15Did wrong in getting business for Britain? Some 400 companies?
41:19What are they saying I did wrong? Batting for Britain? I shall go on batting for Britain.
41:24Can you give the public, the people, an assurance that if all the facts were disclosed about this matter,
41:32there would be no evidence of any impropriety on your part and no breach of the rigorous standards we all expect from people in public life?
41:41I believe that is correct.
41:42Then why not publish all the facts?
41:44Because the facts will be published in due course of time, but you know for when the 30-year records come, of course they will.
41:52Well, work came to Britain. They haven't been able to say that a single thing which I did was wrong.
42:01It was a very uncomfortable episode.
42:04What are you alleging that I did wrong?
42:07I'm not suggesting anything. I'm just putting to you the questions which they say you have not answered and we'll leave it there.
42:13That you're acting as a person. Let us leave it there.
42:15Mrs Thatcher, do you intend to lead the Conservative Party into the next election in, say, 87?
42:19I hope so.
42:20Do you realise then that you will have been, uh, held the office of Prime Minister for a longer, for the longest continuous period of this century and possibly long before that?
42:30Yes.
42:31Eight and a half years?
42:32It's not very long.
42:33Eight and a half years?
42:34Yes, it's not very long if you look back to other times.
42:37And you'll be 62? You still think you want to go ahead at the next election?
42:41Yes. I shall be a very fit 62.
42:44Do you?
42:45I, I, I, you might be a little bit nearer that than I am, but you feel all right?
42:50Forgive me if I don't, don't answer that question, Prime Minister.
42:56In a peculiar way, we were all courtiers at the court of Queen Margaret.
43:09Have you done a date? Have you done a date?
43:13The waiting is over. Mrs Thatcher has named the day. The general election will be on Thursday, June the 11th.
43:21Would you expect this to be your last election as leader of the Conservative Party?
43:26I would hope not. I would hope not. This is only the third term we're asking for. I hope to go on and on.
43:34The 87 election was very difficult for everyone.
43:38Norman Tebbit, the party chairman, me as his right-hand man, were nominally in charge of making all the preparations.
43:45And it became pretty clear from a fairly early stage in that process that something else was going on,
43:52that she was taking advice from other quarters.
43:56Lord Young is Mrs Thatcher's favourite minister. He has a starring role in the daily conferences.
44:02Out of the blue, I'm asked to help to run an election.
44:06I was told that she was very worried that we won't be prepared as well as we should be prepared.
44:12And Norman may not be the best organiser in the world, the best planner.
44:17But the trouble with Margaret is that she was a terrible man-manager.
44:22So although she told me quite a few times she wanted me to come in and help,
44:27she didn't tell Norman. But I think he'd heard rumours.
44:31Oh, I had sought to involve him as well. But I certainly had a strong feeling that not everyone was intent on letting the guy on the bridge steer the ship.
44:48The bookies say betting is quiet as yet on an election outcome.
44:56They expect a Tory victory, but they're not as confident as in 1983, when many of them gave up taking bets.
45:03The campaign is very important indeed, but there is some sign in the polls that there's a volatility about the vote.
45:09So I think the opposition parties feel that they've got everything to play for.
45:13Labour will be concentrating its campaign on a few issues and hoping for an anti-Thatcher reaction.
45:22Presented in the right way, the Prime Minister was an asset.
45:30But it was part of my judgement that we had to avoid the accusation that the government was a one-woman show.
45:42Just because the chairman of the party is about to pat a dog.
45:49We were looking at issues rather than individuals.
45:55We had produced one of the election broadcasts, which she loved all the way through until it came to the end,
46:01where Norman delivered the message.
46:05And at that point you could see that she was furious about that, that she saw herself as being the focal point of the campaign.
46:15So a warm welcome, please, for the next occupants of Number 10 Downing Street, Neil and Glenys.
46:27Labour are pinching themselves to be sure their unexpectedly good start is not a dream.
46:31Conservatives know they've got a fight in their hands.
46:34Until today, the Conservative machine has seemed a little amateurish compared with Labour's.
46:41But in Newport this morning, it was to be Mrs Thatcher's first big campaign speech,
46:45and the party leaders were hoping it would turn back the Labour tide.
46:48The left has become the centre of the Labour Party.
46:56We're all physically exhausted.
46:58She used to work a 20-hour day, she used to get two or three hours sleep a night.
47:03But this has gone on year after year after year.
47:07So we're fought.
47:11It didn't ease my life to have somebody else who was talking to her about how the campaign was running.
47:20You know, she could always talk to me about how the campaign was running,
47:24and I would tell her every day we were getting opinion polls which showed that it was going according to plan.
47:33This was the one election in my life, and I suddenly found myself in the centre, so every night I kept her diving.
47:49I got to number ten, about quarter to ten.
47:53Stephen saw us and told her she was very tired.
47:56In fact, she'd been suffering from a very bad toothache.
47:58She was tetchy, she was very depressed, and most of all, she knew the poll result.
48:05First editions come out, and there's a poll which shows a pretty significant drop in the Conservative lead.
48:13Of course, the first thing you think about it is just the beginning of a trend,
48:17because if the trend goes on, we're in big trouble.
48:20We're going to lose our lead, and we're going to lose.
48:22So we all, I think, had the same fear, which kind of infected everybody else.
48:29So there was a kind of sense of group hysteria.
48:36A week from today, the campaigning will be over, and with the polls swinging erratically,
48:42the election may be in a new, exciting phase.
48:44Opinion polls were suddenly ghastly.
48:47Margaret Thatcher herself had a spell of ill health at the time.
48:51She had acute toothache.
48:53She was not really her normal, ebullient self.
48:55She was really struggling to put on a confident face.
48:59Could Mrs Thatcher tell us when she last trusted the National Health Service enough
49:04to put herself in its hands, please?
49:06Oh, I had that question on a phone-in yesterday.
49:08I'm sorry you didn't listen to the answer.
49:10Can't be everywhere.
49:11No, it can't be everywhere, no, but you can listen.
49:17When we had had the press conference, and we then had the morning meeting with the Chairman,
49:23the Prime Minister was determined the campaign was not going right,
49:29the campaign had to be changed, and the Prime Minister was on the warpath,
49:33and she was on the warpath.
49:37Margaret lost it.
49:38Lost it completely. I had never seen her in such a state.
49:43She was very rude about the advertising, for which I was personally blamed.
49:48She was physically changed.
49:53I understand that was now because she was in terrible pain because of her bad teeth.
49:58But there was something going on there.
50:01It was rather like letting a firework go off and having to just watch it and think,
50:08how much gunpowder is there left in the firework?
50:10And it was quite a lot of gunpowder.
50:13I looked at Willie Whitelaw, and he looked at me, and his oyster eyes just rolled and rolled.
50:19Norman tried to discuss matters with her. She refused to discuss anything.
50:29David Young said, leave it to us, Margaret. We'll sort it. I'll sort it, Margaret.
50:34And I was put to the sword. I had no idea why.
50:43As we left the room, Willie Whitelaw and I were walking down the corridor,
50:48and he said to me that there is a woman who will never fight another election campaign.
50:55Eventually, it was agreed that we should have a complete advertising blitz, costing a fortune, no doubt.
51:08She was going to come to the rescue on her horse.
51:13She was going to do all the media. She was going to be the saviour of the campaign.
51:17Hello. Hello. Hello.
51:19She was determined that I'm the one who can get the message across.
51:30I'm the one who's going to save the campaign.
51:33It is called leadership, by the way.
51:35Ladies and gentlemen, we have the achievements. We have the policies for the future.
51:41Did you agree with her?
51:44I wasn't going to argue with her.
51:49It's ten o'clock on Thursday, June the 11th.
51:52The polling stations are closed, the count is about to begin,
51:56and the final opinion polls suggest a very close result.
52:00How do you feel tonight? How do you feel?
52:07Cautiously optimistic?
52:08People are already gathering in London's Piccadilly Circus in front of a giant electronic scoreboard that will be keeping a tally on the results as they come in.
52:25Do you think we're going to have a close result tonight?
52:28I'm just going to wait and see. Just wait and see.
52:31Very cautious, as you know.
52:38We've been broadcasting the news of the result.
52:40The Conservatives have won the 1987 general election and will lead Britain into the 1990s with a parliamentary majority of over a hundred seats.
52:48It was at half past two this morning that Margaret Hilda Thatcher made political history.
52:59She became the first Prime Minister for more than 160 years to win three successive terms of office.
53:05I remember the Prime Minister arriving, and I remember particularly taking her to the window, opening the window, and waving to those assembled outside.
53:23Five more days! Five more days! Five more days! Five more days!
53:31Very pleasant evening.
53:34We have a great deal of work to do, so no-one must slack.
53:39We can have a party tonight.
53:42You can have a party tonight. You can have a party tonight. You can have a marvellous party tonight.
53:45And you can clear up tomorrow, but on Monday, you know, we've got a big job to do. Thank you so much.
53:58There she was returned with a majority of over one hundred.
54:04What we had been saying to her was borne out.
54:07And I thought this is a wonderful opportunity to put all of the pain to one side and to come back together again as one team.
54:18My office was packed with cabinet members, editors of the press, the editor of the Daily Express was there, one or two other big enchiladas of the game, and me.
54:30And she went down both sides of the room, shaking hands.
54:35Thank you, thank you, thank you so much, thank you.
54:37She came to me.
54:39She blanked me completely and walked past.
54:42And I thought, Margaret, you didn't need to do that.
54:46You know, this was an opportunity to heal, not to rub salt in the wounds.
54:52She would never, never dreamed of doing that five years previously.
55:00But that reminded me that my time in politics was at an end, and I had to go off and find a new life.
55:08It was a great victory in many ways in 87.
55:19It was a great success, and Mrs Thatcher was very strong.
55:23And I took a view, soon after the election, that it was right for me to move on from number 10.
55:30Because my fear always was that Prime Ministers on the whole crush land, they don't normally go voluntarily.
55:38They normally get ousted by the electorate or by their party or by their colleagues.
55:45Good morning.
55:47And I just thought, I'm going to go out when the share price is high.
55:51The thing which changed my relationship with Margaret Thatcher was her having to accept...
56:03Good morning.
56:05...that I would not serve in her next administration.
56:10It did seem to me that it came as a heavier blow than it ought.
56:15But I had warned her beforehand that I would not wish to go on.
56:25But I suspect she had listened too much to those people who were whispering in her ear that I was setting out to supplant her.
56:39If she was looking for disloyalty, she was looking in the wrong place.
56:43It was actually the most difficult time during her Prime Ministership in personal terms, in terms of personal stress and strain and tension.
57:03I remember feeling deeply concerned about it at the time, and that whether after eight or nine years as Prime Minister, it would be really sensible for her to commit herself to go on too long.
57:16Although I've subsequently, for many, many years forgotten I'd ever done this, wrote her a letter.
57:26And I wrote as follows.
57:29Carla and I send you our warmest congratulations on your remarkable election victory, and even more on the fantastic personal effort which achieved it.
57:40If ever a party in a country were carried to success on the shoulders of one person, it's been over this last eight years, and the election was the reward.
57:51All the same, I hope you will not put yourself through it again.
57:54The level of personal abuse thrown at you during the campaign was unbelievable and must take some toll, however stoic you are outwardly.
58:04In two or three years' time, you will have completed the most sweeping change this country has seen in decades, and your place in history will be rivalled in this century only by Churchill.
58:13That's the time to contribute in some other area.
58:22This is tight. In order to save your eyes, there are no copies.
58:26With affection and respect, Charles and Carla.
58:34A strange letter for a civil servant to write, I would concede, but a deeply felt one.
58:39I think it's a letter a friend would send.
58:43I think it's a letter a friend would send.
59:02Avid supporter of Mrs T, Alan Clarke's colourful and candid diaries now over on BBC Four.
59:07And tomorrow here on BBC Two, the oldest and the largest, the godfather of the planets.
59:14Brian Cox looks at Jupiter at nine.
59:17Next tonight, walk like an Egyptian into the hits, power ballads and crazes of 1986.
59:22It'll take your breath away.
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