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00:00Ambedkar he told that no matter how good we make the constitution it depends on
00:06the one who are implementing that so how can we approach to make that kind of
00:10society for democracy to really succeed prerequisite is and you cannot wish for
00:16things to happen just leave a kid in the jungle and what really become Mowgli what
00:21will you get out of him the fact of the matter is we are not good being not just
00:25flawed but actually very dangerous people we are no we are potentially divine
00:31but we are actually beastly so is democracy itself the part of the problem
00:37is democracy just remained the label or is it the system is capable of self
00:42correction but democracy is not about competition democracy is about all of us
00:46living together but now it has become a ugly spear you spend money and you go
00:51buy votes so that structure of the system needs a change yeah I'm a leader I want
00:57to vote and if the vote can be rather easily had by corrupting you why will I
01:03not corrupt you beat India beat America what do you find the leaders doing they
01:07are corrupting the consciousness of their electorate we'll have to turn ourselves
01:11into real human being Ambedkar like I have seen in a documentary that he told that no
01:23matter how good we make the Constitution it depends on the one who are
01:27implementing that so how can we approach to make that kind of society where the
01:35people that Ambedkar vision that the that kind of people should come where we even
01:42we if you make loopholes in means even in a weak Constitution the society can function well
01:48would you like to take that a very important question and a very fine statement that you have quoted from Dr. Ambedkar
01:59and something that I have personally thought about for long because of our work in democracy the short
02:08answer is it cannot be done because it can never ensure that people of character will always be there
02:15there is a president you just read a speech now these things will happen in countries and in history
02:27ups and downs will be there if you have a dream that we will create some system where only good people
02:36will be there in the government for all times to come it will not happen you know why
02:45none of us sitting here including me is perfect human beings are not perfect and we want to create a
02:52perfect system out of imperfect human beings we can increase the chances of good things happening people
03:00of character should be put there in the government but who is voting for these characters donald trump
03:05ko kisne vote diya hmm yeah and they are highly educated on paper they are more educated than india
03:15in india who is voting for the various governments different state governments and who is voting we are voting
03:20so it's a very very difficult question and actually the only answer i got from a very practical point of
03:30view not from whether everything is tried to vedanta is whether it is roosevelt or uh what is his great
03:39point from africa i forget his name nelson mandela or mahondas karamchand gandhi i don't remember
03:45ambedkar's quote on this he says the only answer is true education education education education the
03:53true sense not reading writing only so that people all the things that he is saying people can think
03:58and analyze for themselves more and more people are aware and educated democracy will become better
04:06and this is the chance that we will select people of good character now who is going to do that
04:11government schools will do that's why these forums are here and you you may be much more educated than
04:18me but then we have to also communicate with the people of india that may not guarantee everything
04:25but it can improve the chances that better people are there in government
04:32i know you are not happy because when i was young i thought we will create a perfect world
04:36but think about it how can you create a perfect world with imperfect human beings perfect system
04:47it comes to economics of it right
04:51sir in sweden which has got economic prosperity and equality and all the good thing that we love
04:57somebody said some european scandinavia held up what is happening now far right-wing governments are being
05:03elected people who are completely racist and far right-wing and authoritarian they are being elected
05:11so this is a very big puzzle see if you accept that human beings are the same everywhere in the world
05:18there is not some kind of heavenly people in scandinavia and some useless superstitious people in india
05:24everybody is the same these things will happen so vedanta will say find out your own solution and you can
05:34even in the worst situation you can that is only promise
05:38this is something to base if you wanted do it why ask whether it can happen depends on you
05:52that's what both vedanta and quantum physics say depends on you if you see it's obvious human beings are
06:02imperfect we are animalistic in nature we share so many of our deepest tendencies with animals don't we see that
06:12greed fear anger lust jealousy covetousness we are so much like animals
06:21so if you want a great system in which people of character etc come on go ahead and educate people
06:29go ahead and educate people as to what the real meaning of character is what is meant by governance
06:39what is meant by constitution if you don't educate them
06:45you me we all will remain beastly because that's how we are born just leave a kid in the jungle and
06:51what will he become mowgli what will you get out of him so there is this beautiful
06:58novel lord of the flies the group of kids get stranded on an island a faraway island world war ii
07:09right and what happens of them one day it is found that one of the fat kids has actually been slaughtered
07:19and his head has been impaired on a stick and lot of flies are swarming around it so
07:25that's what gives the novel its name lord of the flies lord of the flies so that's how beastly the kids
07:32become small kids five to twelve years old it's a very important work i think we should read it to
07:39know who we really are otherwise we just keep professing we are we are coming from here we are there we are
07:45potentially divine but we are actually beastly
07:49not just not just flawed but actually very dangerous people we are no we are that's why morality is needed
08:09otherwise we'll tear each other apart that's why heaven and hell are needed so that some fear of
08:14consequences is there otherwise we can be very dangerous people we'll have to turn ourselves
08:21into real human beings so education is the answer there is no other answer and you cannot wish for
08:27things to happen come on get up and make it happen do it if you think it should happen then it's your
08:33responsibility obviously we we all this arrangement is has an economic angle as well but tell me what
08:53you can do do not tell me where the bottleneck is when we come to the bottleneck we'll fight it as they
08:59say we'll cross the bridge when we come to it but what stops you from making a beginning
09:07make a beginning and when you encounter obstacles then we'll see how to deal with them hello sir so
09:13this is is democracy to say there is populism across the world that we are seeing in us in europe etc etc
09:21so is democracy itself the part of the problem for example elections seem like a popularity contest
09:27popularity can be manufactured with media media is controlled by power then popularity game in itself
09:32is tribal uh which will inevitably lead to conflict this was the society the reality of society now
09:39there are information bubbles my reality is perhaps different from him so how can we even agree to
09:44bring about a change and now there is this techno imperialist who control information hence control
09:48power hence his democracy just remained a label or is it the system is capable of self-correction in a
09:57or this system no no i understand your question extremely well it's a very good question
10:03you see democracy as practiced today is what we call representative democracy and not participative
10:13democracy so representative means we elect people it is based on a western paradigm which is competition
10:20and winner take all most dramatically shown in the american electoral college system where if you get one more
10:29vote more than the other you get all the electoral college seats of that particular state so for example in
10:40when donald trump won first time in 2016 he got four million votes less than whatever her name hillary
10:47clinton but he won so this western model of winner take all and competition has played out its course
10:56and it is becoming very ugly but democracy is not about competition democracy is about all of us living
11:02together in some sense of fraternity some sense of if not equality at least equity and all that kind of
11:09stuff so the structures we have created for elections anywhere in the world is a little complicated the best i
11:16have seen is in japan and i think we can try to adopt it in india which is what about the 45 percent
11:25who did not vote for the winner do they have a representative so we can we can have two both of them
11:32we i mean i'm not talking about the president but in every constituency so we have to think of ways of doing
11:37that and if you go back to the roots of indian democracy they claim india is the oldest democracy
11:43before greece it was there in some part of bihar i forget the name so people that was participatory
11:53you sit and discuss and say chalo why why don't you become the leader for the next few years and we
11:59will all work with you it was more by discussion and uh consensus or some kind of you can call it
12:08consensus or compromise but now it has become a ugly spare you spend money and you vote and buy people
12:17buy votes and then it's a winner take all so that structure of the system needs a change
12:25popularity yes popularity all these things are there that competition of winner take all is the root
12:35of all the problems in democracy then populism just seems inevitable
12:42i think we'll have to have a longer discussion of that yeah would you like to yeah you see democracy
12:51the prerequisite is an educated and awakened population to whatever extent the awakening is there otherwise
13:00it's a bargain see i'm a leader i want you vote and if the vote can be rather easily had
13:08by corrupting you why will i not corrupt you so democracy in fact can in a perverse way
13:14become a force that pulls the electorate down why will the for example we talked of fear the leader will
13:26engage in fear mongering if fear mongering gets him votes so that would mean that you will find yourself
13:34stuck deeper in fear at the time of elections compared to other times are you getting it i need votes and
13:43if you can get votes by arousing all your animal instincts why will i not do that right and if
13:50your animal instincts are aroused then you will select another animal as your leader and it's a vicious
13:57cycle then so an educated electorate educated not only in matters of the world but also educated in
14:05matters of the mind in matters of the inside that educated electorate is a sine qua non for any
14:11democratic system to function and we currently do not have that as much as we need it we need a fully
14:20functional system of internal education for democracy to really succeed along with of course the things
14:26that why should we have a competitive system in which so many people lose representation let alone
14:32participation so that is definitely there but beat india beat america what do you find the leaders doing
14:39they are corrupting the consciousness of their electorate and the electorate is taking it taking it we need a
14:46better electorate first of all for democracy to be successful just on that point and since you
14:54you mentioned this that we are not living in a jungle we are
14:59the goal of religion and the constitution according to you from what i've learned is to rise above our
15:11animal instincts and those animal instincts whether they drive us towards competition whether they drive us
15:18towards jealousy so therefore being being citizens of a democracy being really truly religious people
15:32means rising above our animal instincts beautiful yes does that also mean
15:38that we are above animals and many people use that then to justify this which is why i'm raising
15:46are you above your own body the body is the animal we share this body with animals
15:51and it's the body that generates all the instincts the hormones that you have you share with them animals
15:57right look at the way we become fathers and mothers and the hormones that play their part in the process the
16:05same we find in other mammals so would we say that we dislike our body or despise our body or we would
16:13be cruel to our body and if we won't want to be cruel to our body why do we want to be cruel to animals
16:19also if the goal is liberation from suffering how will you gain liberation by inflicting suffering
16:25on another creature another creature so that's a very good point you have raised that when we keep
16:32saying you know you have to rise above the animal you have to rise above the animal aren't you being a
16:37little disrespectful towards the animal no sir not really just as we are not being disrespectful towards
16:43our own body while we say naham dehasmi at the same time we realize that the body is the body it's a process
16:51and it has to be seen as a fact it has to be seen as a fact of prakriti neither good nor bad it exists
16:58i have no even in the spiritual process i have no business tormenting it and equally i have no business
17:05interfering with the functioning of other animals the way they live the way they habitat the way the way
17:12they reproduce the way their entire system is i have no right getting into that just as i have no
17:17right getting into the essential processes of my own body why will i want to for example block my
17:22heartbeat or interfere with it or temper it i won't want to just as rising above our animal instinct does
17:29not mean that we can exploit our own body yes similarly we cannot exploit any other being yes yes
17:42so
17:47so
17:49so
17:51so
17:53so
17:55so
17:57so
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