Crown Court - How to Rob a Memory Bank (1974) - video Dailymotion

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Crown Court: the gripping courtroom drama from the 1970s and 1980s.   Samuel Arthur Warren is accused of false accounting. John Barron, Jonathan Elsom and Jack Sheppard star.

Transcript

00:00:00Put up the accused.

00:00:30All stand.

00:00:44Are you Samuel Arthur Warren?

00:00:46Yes.

00:00:47Samuel Arthur Warren, you are charged with false accounting contrary to section 17-1A of

00:00:53the Theft Act, 1968, in that you, in August 1972, dishonestly and with a view to gain

00:01:00for yourself, did falsify a document made for the accounts of your employers, the United

00:01:05Kingdom King Packaging Company, namely a computer punch card.

00:01:09How say you?

00:01:10Are you guilty or not guilty?

00:01:11Not guilty.

00:01:17Members of the jury, I was never particularly good at sums myself, and I dare say some of

00:01:22you weren't either.

00:01:23Well, mention mathematics, and some of us go a little hazy in the head, bring up the

00:01:27subject of computers, and most of us retire in bewilderment.

00:01:30We don't understand computers, and there's no reason why we should.

00:01:33Normally, they are subjects best left to the experts.

00:01:37However, during the course of this trial, you will be called upon to pay attention to a good

00:01:40deal of information about computers and how they are used, and indeed misused, because

00:01:47it was through his understanding of this subject and these matters that the accused was able

00:01:52to misappropriate the very considerable sum of 125,000 pounds and 58 new pence.

00:01:59Now, if you suffer, or think you do, from a blind spot about these things, don't be perturbed.

00:02:04I will endeavour to explain to you, in simple terms, the details of the system whereby the accused

00:02:11made use of his employer's computer for his own game.

00:02:17Now, you are the Chief Security Officer of UKPC?

00:02:20Yes, sir.

00:02:20Can we remind the jury about UKPC, Mr. Mortler?

00:02:24United Kingdom King Packaging Company, my lord.

00:02:26Yes, the company is generally known as UKPC, my lord.

00:02:29It would be convenient for us all to refer to a deception.

00:02:31Oh, I'm sure it would, Mr. Golding.

00:02:33My lord.

00:02:35You were formerly an inspector in the fraud squad.

00:02:38That's right.

00:02:38And when did you take up your present post?

00:02:40Beginning of this year, January, sir.

00:02:42Can you tell us what happened in March of this year to concern you at UKPC?

00:02:46I was called on to investigate a discrepancy in the account, sir.

00:02:49A discrepancy?

00:02:50What exactly was it that had come to light?

00:02:52A letter containing a cheque we had sent out in payment was returned to us by the post office.

00:02:56They were unable to deliver it, sir.

00:02:57May we be shown Exhibit 1?

00:02:59Yes.

00:03:02Now, is this the cheque and the envelope to which you refer?

00:03:05Yes, sir.

00:03:06The cheque was for £2,200, is it not?

00:03:09Made out to a firm called Midland Rapper.

00:03:12That's right, sir.

00:03:13Yes.

00:03:13It seems in order, doesn't it?

00:03:15Why was the post office unable to deliver it?

00:03:16There is no such firm at that address, sir.

00:03:18I see.

00:03:19And what did you do?

00:03:20Well, I made some investigations concerning Midland Rapper.

00:03:23I visited this address.

00:03:24It's a trading estate in Leicester, and I made a search of the register in company's house.

00:03:28There is no such company.

00:03:30No such company, yes.

00:03:32And what did you do then?

00:03:33In the course of time, I had a cheque made of the accounts and discovered that between August 1972 and March of 1974,

00:03:40UKPC had paid out £125,000 and 58 new pence, sir, to Midland Rapper.

00:03:48To a company that did not exist?

00:03:50Oh, that's right, sir.

00:03:51I also found a considerable number of goods received notes purporting to show that UKPC had taken delivery of goods from Midland Rapper.

00:03:59Yes.

00:04:00Do you produce these goods received notes?

00:04:01I do, sir.

00:04:01Exhibit two, my lord.

00:04:02Yes.

00:04:06These are the notes, sir.

00:04:08And have these goods been delivered?

00:04:10I checked the stock book, sir.

00:04:12There were no traces of any goods to correspond with these delivery notes.

00:04:16Sir, non-existent goods from a non-existent company.

00:04:19Now, how then do you explain the presence of these very real goods received notes?

00:04:23Well, I concluded that someone with access to the delivery notes had fraudulently made them out and then slipped them into the bag in the accounts department.

00:04:30The bag?

00:04:31Oh, that's the bundle of invoices and so on collected together for processing.

00:04:34I see.

00:04:35And the contents of this bag were processed in the normal way, were they?

00:04:37No, sir.

00:04:38Normally they were processed through the company's computer, but there was a fault and it was all being done by hand.

00:04:43I see.

00:04:43Work normally done by the computer was being done by people in the accounts department.

00:04:48That's right, sir.

00:04:49Yes.

00:04:49Now, if this delivery note had been processed through the computer, what would have happened?

00:04:53Well, a check was made to see what would have happened when the computer was working again,

00:04:57and it seems the computer would have paid the amount by credit transfer.

00:05:00Not by check?

00:05:01No, sir.

00:05:02And how would this have worked?

00:05:04Well, the credit, the computer would have made out a credit transfer note, and that would be sent to the bank.

00:05:10A credit transfer in favour of Midland Rapper.

00:05:13In favour of a non-existent company?

00:05:15Yes, sir.

00:05:15Yes.

00:05:16And how would this have been dealt with at the bank?

00:05:18Through the bank's computer system, sir.

00:05:21Well, surely the bank's computer would have been at a loss as to how to deal with this credit transfer.

00:05:25No, sir.

00:05:25The bank account number on the credit transfer instructions was the number of an actual account.

00:05:31Yes, I should like to clarify this.

00:05:33You are saying that whoever fed this information about the spurious company into UKPC's computer

00:05:41used the number of a bank account he had already opened in the name of Midland Rapper.

00:05:48That is correct, my lord.

00:05:48Yes, yes.

00:05:49Yes.

00:05:50Were all computerised payments made by credit transfer?

00:05:53No, sir.

00:05:53It was programmed to treat certain payees as regulars, and these were the ones paid by credit transfers.

00:05:59So, of course, it had details of their bank account numbers on record in its memory bank.

00:06:04Yes.

00:06:05And did this list of regulars now include Midland Rapper?

00:06:08Yes, sir.

00:06:08Yes.

00:06:09Now, what was the balance in the account when you investigated this?

00:06:12£125,000 and 58 new pence.

00:06:17Yes.

00:06:17And had all that been paid in by or through the UKPC computer?

00:06:21Yes, sir.

00:06:21Yes.

00:06:22Now, would it be reasonable to suppose that whoever had supplied the computer with the

00:06:26details of Midland Rapper was the same person who introduced the false goods received notes

00:06:31into the bank?

00:06:32Either the same person or someone working with that person, sir, yes.

00:06:35I decided that only about four people actually had the knowledge and opportunity.

00:06:40That is, only about four or five within the company, sir.

00:06:42Yes.

00:06:43And was the accused one of these?

00:06:45He was, sir.

00:06:46Yes.

00:06:47It was a matter of course to interview him.

00:06:48And did you interview him?

00:06:49Yes, sir.

00:06:50On the 8th of March of this year, in company with Detective Sergeant Atras of the Forchester

00:06:54CID.

00:06:55Where did that interview take place?

00:06:56At the accused's home, sir.

00:06:58Yes.

00:06:58Why not at work?

00:06:59He wasn't at work, sir.

00:07:00He'd been away for several days with a slipped disc.

00:07:02I see.

00:07:03And what state was he in when you interviewed him?

00:07:04He was in bed, sir, with a board under the mattress.

00:07:07And what did he say to you during the interview?

00:07:10I explained, well, I started to explain why I wanted to talk to him and he interrupted

00:07:14me.

00:07:14He said, I suppose you would like to talk to the chief executive of Midland Rapper Limited.

00:07:19I said, I would very much like to.

00:07:21And he said, speaking.

00:07:23And what did you take that to mean?

00:07:25That he was the person who had organised it, sir.

00:07:26This deception involving the fictitious company.

00:07:30Did he have anything else to say?

00:07:31Yes, sir.

00:07:32He said, have they totted it up yet?

00:07:34It's not a bad score, is it?

00:07:36Yes.

00:07:37And that left you in no doubt that he was talking about the money paid out to Midland Rapper.

00:07:41None whatsoever.

00:07:42None at all.

00:07:43Yes.

00:07:43And then what happened?

00:07:45Detective Sergeant Atres told him he was arresting him and then cautioned him in the usual

00:07:48way.

00:07:49And did the sergeant take him to the police station?

00:07:51No, sir.

00:07:52In view of his condition, we left him where he was.

00:07:55Because of his slipped disc.

00:07:57We did check that his condition was genuine, sir, with his GP.

00:08:01And so there was no danger that he might try to flee from justice?

00:08:04Not the way he was at the time, no.

00:08:06Now, did you ask him if he'd like to make a statement?

00:08:08Yes, sir.

00:08:09He refused to make a statement.

00:08:11But he was quite willing to answer questions.

00:08:12I see.

00:08:13And I presume you had a number to ask?

00:08:15Yes, sir.

00:08:15I asked him where the money was.

00:08:16He said it was in the bank.

00:08:18I asked him the name and number and address of the bank and the bank account number.

00:08:22He told me.

00:08:23You already knew that, did you?

00:08:24Yes, sir.

00:08:25Bank codes indicate bank and branch.

00:08:27Yes.

00:08:27And did he give the correct bank and branch?

00:08:29Yes, sir.

00:08:30And did he give you any other information concerning this account?

00:08:33He handed me the statements relating to the account.

00:08:36He said, it's all still there.

00:08:39You can check it for yourself.

00:08:41Yes.

00:08:41And do you produce these statements, Exhibit 3, my lord?

00:08:43Yes, sir.

00:08:45And so there is nothing else to connect the accused with this account?

00:08:49Well, there was his signature.

00:08:51His signature?

00:08:52Yes, the specimen signature on the bank record card.

00:08:55He used his own name, S.A. Warren, signed it the same way he always did.

00:08:58Do you produce this bank record card?

00:09:00Yes, sir.

00:09:00Exhibit 4, my lord.

00:09:01Yes.

00:09:02Didn't it seem strange to you that he should use his own name and signature?

00:09:06Well, I said to him, that wasn't too clever, was it?

00:09:09And what did he say?

00:09:10He said he couldn't think of any reason for changing his name.

00:09:12He seemed like a lot of unnecessary trouble.

00:09:14Really?

00:09:15Yes, sir.

00:09:15He said computers don't read signatures, only numbers.

00:09:18So why bother?

00:09:20Yes.

00:09:20Did you investigate the possibility that the accused might have been working with others?

00:09:24Yes, sir.

00:09:25But everything that was done was quite within the ability of the accused.

00:09:28Ah, yes.

00:09:28You're saying that he had no need of the help of others?

00:09:32Yes, that's what I'm saying, sir.

00:09:33Yes, sir.

00:09:34Now, did you ask him if there were others involved?

00:09:36And if so, what did he say?

00:09:38He had a bit of a laugh, sir.

00:09:40He said, all my own work, James.

00:09:44Hmm, and what was his manner when answering these questions of yours?

00:09:47Quite jovial, sir.

00:09:48A bit on the cocky side.

00:09:50He kept laughing.

00:09:51Could you see any reason for that?

00:09:52Not really, sir, except that he was laid up with a slipped disc at the one time he needed to be on the move.

00:09:57Ah, yes.

00:09:57And despite the fact that he declined to make a statement,

00:09:59he appeared to be freely admitting that he and he alone was responsible for the transfer of this money

00:10:05to a bank account which he had opened and all of that involved.

00:10:08Yes, sir.

00:10:09Yes.

00:10:09And could there have been any doubt or confusion in the mind of the accused as to what it was you were charging him with?

00:10:15No, sir.

00:10:16None at all.

00:10:17Thank you, Inspector.

00:10:19Mr Mortlock.

00:10:21Mr Mortlock, you've described Mr Warren's attitude when you interviewed him as a bit on the cocky side.

00:10:31Would you say that he answered your questions readily?

00:10:35Readily?

00:10:36Yes, I'd say that.

00:10:38He described himself as the chief executive of Midland Rapper.

00:10:42Would you say he did this readily?

00:10:44As I've already said, he interrupted me with that remark.

00:10:48I'd hardly started speaking to him.

00:10:50Oh, very readily indeed, then.

00:10:53You also used the word cheerfully, did you not?

00:10:56Yes, sir.

00:10:56He was being very helpful, was he not, saving you the trouble of persistent and elaborate inquiries.

00:11:02You could say that.

00:11:04So Mr Warren was readily and cheerfully helpful to you and to the police.

00:11:09In your experience, Mr Mortlock, would you say this was usual for a man guilty of a major crime?

00:11:16Well...

00:11:16Is it usual?

00:11:19Sometimes.

00:11:19I wouldn't say it's unusual.

00:11:22Do you remember anything else Mr Warren said when you interviewed him?

00:11:25I think I noted most of what he said.

00:11:27Yes, well, did he say to you, how are the silly buggers taking it?

00:11:31I wish I could see their faces.

00:11:33He did say something to that.

00:11:34Yes, did he also say to you, it was so easy, it was almost boring?

00:11:39He said that or something like that on the second occasion.

00:11:42I tried to get a statement from him, yes, sir.

00:11:43Mr O'Connor, are you saying that your client made what is tantamount to a confession of guilt?

00:11:48No, my lord, though what he said might, and indeed has been mistakenly taken for such.

00:11:55Then might we know the nature of your client's defence?

00:11:59With respect, my lord, it'll become clear in time.

00:12:03No, very well.

00:12:04Thank you, my lord.

00:12:06Mr Mortlock, did you look for a cheque book to go with this account you say Mr Warren opened?

00:12:11Yes, sir.

00:12:11Did you find one?

00:12:12No, sir.

00:12:12Well, you made a thorough search, I'm sure.

00:12:15The flat, office, car and so on.

00:12:17Yes, sir.

00:12:17But you didn't find one.

00:12:18What conclusion did you come to, then?

00:12:20But the accused must have hidden it somewhere.

00:12:22Come on, Mr Mortlock.

00:12:24Why should a man who keeps the bank statement in his bedroom,

00:12:27who couldn't be bothered to hide his identity or change his signature,

00:12:31take so much trouble to hide his cheque book?

00:12:33I have no idea, sir.

00:12:35Neither have I, Mr Mortlock.

00:12:38Would it surprise you to learn that Mr Warren destroyed this cheque book

00:12:41that was given to him by the bank because he had no intention of using it?

00:12:46Yes, it would, sir.

00:12:47That would surprise me.

00:12:49And so it might.

00:12:51But that is exactly what Mr Warren did.

00:12:53Mr Collins, you are employed by UKPC as a computer programmer, is that so?

00:13:15Yes.

00:13:15Could you tell us, in simple terms, just what this post entails?

00:13:19I write and maintain the programs used on the company's computer.

00:13:22Yes. Could you explain what a program is?

00:13:24Well, it's a set of instructions in a language which the computer can understand,

00:13:28which tell it what to do with the information you feed in.

00:13:31Yes. What do you mean by language in this sense?

00:13:34Any computer language is made up from a code that has only two elements,

00:13:39rather like yes and no.

00:13:41Yes is an electronic pulse.

00:13:43No is no electronic pulse.

00:13:45If you think of it in terms of numbers,

00:13:46a pulse is one and no pulse equals nothing.

00:13:50And those are the only numbers that computers use.

00:13:52Then how do they perform these complicated calculations?

00:13:55Well, in normal arithmetic, we don't have numerals bigger than nine,

00:13:59but we can in fact calculate much bigger sums

00:14:00by using the same numerals over and over again,

00:14:03making a string of numerals.

00:14:05Computers do that without the luxury of numerals bigger than one.

00:14:08But the string gets to be very long indeed.

00:14:12Nine to a computer, for instance, is one, oh, oh, one.

00:14:15I see.

00:14:15Then how do you give instructions to something

00:14:18that only knows the difference between nothing and one?

00:14:21Simply by using a code of nothings and ones.

00:14:23If you imagine a language

00:14:26in which there are only the letters N and O,

00:14:30now you could in fact make lots of words.

00:14:32No, on, oh, no, no, no, no, oh, no, oh, no,

00:14:36and you could go on forever.

00:14:37But the words would get very long and boring.

00:14:40Quite.

00:14:40Yes.

00:14:41Now, Mr Collins,

00:14:43if I understand you correctly,

00:14:46a computer program

00:14:47is

00:14:49a set of instructions

00:14:51using that sort of language.

00:14:53That's right, my lord, yes.

00:14:55I'm indebted to your logic.

00:14:56Of course, there are lots of different computer languages

00:14:58for different purposes based on such codes.

00:15:00Perhaps I should give you one or two examples of those.

00:15:01Oh, no, that's quite all right, Mr Collins.

00:15:04Though you do explain these things frightfully well,

00:15:07you obviously enjoy your work.

00:15:09Thank you, yes, I do.

00:15:11And did you ever discuss your work with Mr Warren?

00:15:14Yes.

00:15:15And did he seem interested in it?

00:15:16Oh, yes, he did, yes.

00:15:17He was obviously familiar with the basic facts.

00:15:21Yes.

00:15:21Being in general terms familiar with computers

00:15:24and how they work,

00:15:25that's not the same thing, is it,

00:15:26as being familiar with a particular program?

00:15:28No, sir, not at all.

00:15:29No.

00:15:29Now, do you know whether or not Mr Warren

00:15:31was familiar with a particular program

00:15:32that was used at UKPC?

00:15:34Oh, yes, sir.

00:15:34Yes, he was.

00:15:36Did he ask any questions about it?

00:15:38Well, questions, yes.

00:15:40And sometimes he'd say,

00:15:41is this how it goes?

00:15:42And he'd as good as tell me.

00:15:44Well, I mean, he didn't need me

00:15:45to tell him the sort of elementary stuff

00:15:47I've been explaining to you, sir.

00:15:48He usually had it right.

00:15:50So, he was familiar with the theory

00:15:53and familiar with the program.

00:15:55Was he also familiar with the actual procedure?

00:15:57I mean, could he actually operate the machine?

00:16:00Oh, absolutely, no difficulty.

00:16:01I've seen him myself using the terminal.

00:16:03That's the device for feeding information

00:16:05into the computer.

00:16:06Yes.

00:16:06Tell me, could anyone who went to the terminal

00:16:08operate this machine?

00:16:09I mean, could I if I went there now?

00:16:10No, sir.

00:16:11You'd have to identify yourself to the machine

00:16:13by using a particular code.

00:16:15Only authorised persons would know that code.

00:16:17I see.

00:16:18But then if I knew that code,

00:16:19I could operate that computer?

00:16:21Yes, yes.

00:16:22And if I knew that code

00:16:23and keyed in, say,

00:16:24my own bank account number

00:16:25and an instruction to pay me £100,

00:16:29what would happen?

00:16:30Well, sir, it would tell you to plod off.

00:16:33It would do what?

00:16:34It would write out a little message

00:16:36saying, plod off.

00:16:37Uh, why would it do that?

00:16:40Well, your instructions

00:16:41simply wouldn't make sense to it

00:16:42in terms of its programme.

00:16:44That's how it responds

00:16:45to things that don't make sense.

00:16:46Really?

00:16:48It's a little joke of mine, actually.

00:16:50VIPs, you know,

00:16:51come round and they always want

00:16:52to play with the computer.

00:16:53That's what it says to them.

00:16:55I see.

00:16:56That's, however,

00:16:57not what it said

00:16:58to the person who instructed it

00:16:59to make payments to Midland Rapp.

00:17:01Oh, no, sir.

00:17:01Mr Warren's instructions

00:17:02were perfectly compatible

00:17:04with the programme.

00:17:04Yes, Mr Collins,

00:17:05we are all here to decide

00:17:08amongst other things

00:17:09whether or not

00:17:09Mr Warren did, in fact,

00:17:11give those instructions.

00:17:12Yes, of course.

00:17:13I'm sorry.

00:17:14And the computer

00:17:15obeyed those instructions,

00:17:16even though they concerned

00:17:17a company that was quite unreal?

00:17:19Well, the computer

00:17:19is no judge of reality.

00:17:21It can only do

00:17:21what it's told,

00:17:22providing what you tell her

00:17:23to do is consistent

00:17:24with the programme.

00:17:25And how did the person

00:17:27make these particular instructions

00:17:28consistent with the programme?

00:17:29He used a spare code

00:17:31which related to a company

00:17:33we weren't doing business

00:17:33with anymore.

00:17:34He made out a new punch card

00:17:36which registered a change

00:17:37of bank account number

00:17:38for that company.

00:17:39And that company

00:17:40was called what?

00:17:41Midland Rapper Film and Foil.

00:17:42It was usually referred to

00:17:43as Midland Rapper.

00:17:44Those two words

00:17:45were enough.

00:17:45Yes.

00:17:46Now, you mentioned

00:17:47a punched card was used.

00:17:49Without becoming

00:17:50too technical,

00:17:50what is that?

00:17:52Program material

00:17:53is fed into the computer

00:17:54on punched cards,

00:17:56literally cards

00:17:57with holes punched in them.

00:17:58The position of the holes

00:18:00is registered by the computer.

00:18:02It has a device

00:18:03which shines light through them.

00:18:05And they all mean something.

00:18:06I see.

00:18:06And did Mr Warren

00:18:07know how to prepare

00:18:08those punched cards?

00:18:09Oh, yes.

00:18:10He'd done it many times.

00:18:11Just a minute.

00:18:13You saw him doing it?

00:18:14Yes.

00:18:15Yes.

00:18:16And did he do that

00:18:17in the course of his work?

00:18:19Well, he didn't have to

00:18:20make out his own punched cards,

00:18:22but he did, quite often.

00:18:23Yes.

00:18:24And it would have been possible,

00:18:25would it,

00:18:25for Mr Warren,

00:18:26simply by making out

00:18:27one of these cards,

00:18:27to change the details

00:18:29that had already been programmed

00:18:31relating to a particular company?

00:18:32Oh, yes.

00:18:33You have to be able

00:18:33to update your information.

00:18:34Oh, dear.

00:18:35This barbarous word,

00:18:36update.

00:18:37What does it mean?

00:18:39Simply changing your information

00:18:40as circumstances change,

00:18:42my lord.

00:18:42I see.

00:18:44Mr Collins,

00:18:44why could not someone

00:18:45in Mr Warren's position

00:18:46simply fed into the computer

00:18:48his own name

00:18:49and current account number

00:18:50and instructed the computer

00:18:52to pay money into that?

00:18:53Well, that wouldn't be

00:18:54updating information, sir.

00:18:55That would be putting

00:18:56entirely new material on the store.

00:18:57And he could not have done that?

00:18:59Well, to feed in new information

00:19:00of that type,

00:19:01he'd need to use

00:19:02two other special codes,

00:19:04which are held by me

00:19:05and the accounts manager,

00:19:06Mr Swenloft.

00:19:07And were these codes

00:19:08known only to you

00:19:09and to Mr Swenloft?

00:19:10Yes.

00:19:10Yes, I see.

00:19:11So a simple fraud like that

00:19:12would have required

00:19:13a considerable degree

00:19:14of collusion,

00:19:15but the device

00:19:16of updating information

00:19:17and then opening

00:19:18a bank account

00:19:19to fit this information,

00:19:20would that have required

00:19:21any collusion at all?

00:19:22I mean, any help from anyone?

00:19:23No, sir.

00:19:23And was it entirely

00:19:25and fully within the scope

00:19:26of the knowledge

00:19:27and the ability

00:19:27that you knew

00:19:28Mr Warren to possess?

00:19:30Yes, sir.

00:19:31Thank you, Mr Collins.

00:19:35Mr Collins,

00:19:37you've told us

00:19:38that the accused

00:19:39took a good deal

00:19:40of interest in the computer

00:19:41and all that related to it.

00:19:43Did he concern himself

00:19:44with the security

00:19:45of the thing?

00:19:46I mean, against fraud

00:19:47and other possible abuses?

00:19:49Oh, yes, sir, yes.

00:19:50He was very hot on that.

00:19:52In what way

00:19:53was he very hot on it?

00:19:55Well, it's difficult to say.

00:19:56He was just a sort of

00:19:58bee in his bonnet.

00:19:59Did he frequently

00:20:00mention the subject?

00:20:01Oh, yes, sir.

00:20:02He said villains

00:20:03would give up raiding banks

00:20:04if they knew enough

00:20:04about computers.

00:20:05Did he say that

00:20:06in so many words?

00:20:07Yes, yes.

00:20:07He said you wouldn't

00:20:07have to threaten them

00:20:08with a gun.

00:20:08You'd just have to ask nicely.

00:20:10Do you think there's

00:20:11any degree of truth in that?

00:20:12Oh, yes, sir.

00:20:13There's a lot of truth in it.

00:20:14Now, can you think

00:20:15of any specific instances

00:20:17of Mr Warren's concern

00:20:18for security?

00:20:20Well, there was

00:20:20the programme itself.

00:20:22I mean, at first

00:20:22it was kept in the computer room,

00:20:24that is, the stack

00:20:25of punched cards.

00:20:27Mr Warren had them

00:20:28moved into a safe.

00:20:29Did he say why

00:20:30he thought that was necessary?

00:20:32Well, in the first place

00:20:33it cost several thousand pounds

00:20:34to have a programme

00:20:35like that written.

00:20:36Oh, the cards are

00:20:37in themselves valuable then,

00:20:39is that it?

00:20:39Yes.

00:20:42Now, did Mr Warren

00:20:43ever suggest

00:20:44any other grounds

00:20:44for his concern

00:20:45for keeping the cards

00:20:46in the safe?

00:20:48Well, there was

00:20:48what he referred to

00:20:49as sabotage.

00:20:51If the cards got

00:20:52mutilated or burned

00:20:53we would be in

00:20:53for an awful lot of trouble.

00:20:55Did he suggest

00:20:55that someone might

00:20:56do that deliberately?

00:20:57Well, he said it was possible

00:20:58and we ought to guard

00:20:59against whatever was possible.

00:21:01Why would the loss

00:21:02of those cards

00:21:02be so catastrophic?

00:21:04Would you not be able

00:21:05to use the machine at all?

00:21:06Well, it's not quite

00:21:07as simple as that, sir.

00:21:09You see, information

00:21:09is stored in the form

00:21:11of a stack of punched cards.

00:21:13But in order

00:21:13to run the machine

00:21:14it's transferred,

00:21:15that is,

00:21:16the information

00:21:16on the cards

00:21:17is transferred

00:21:18onto magnetic tape.

00:21:20Well, now,

00:21:20there is a problem

00:21:21called degradation

00:21:21in which the magnetic tape

00:21:23gets worn

00:21:24and information

00:21:25drops out.

00:21:26Drops out?

00:21:27Literally?

00:21:28Yes, literally.

00:21:29The surface of the tape

00:21:30is rubbed clean

00:21:31and you lose

00:21:32bits of information.

00:21:34Well, at a certain point

00:21:35you have to make

00:21:36a new tape

00:21:36using the punched cards.

00:21:38Well, of course,

00:21:39if you didn't have

00:21:39the punched cards...

00:21:40Yes, yes,

00:21:40I think we take your point.

00:21:42And did Mr Warren

00:21:43suggest that there

00:21:43was any risk

00:21:44attending the making

00:21:45of new tapes?

00:21:46Well, he reckoned

00:21:48that someone

00:21:49who really knew

00:21:49what he was doing

00:21:50could rewrite

00:21:51whole areas of the programme

00:21:52in his leisure

00:21:52and then wait

00:21:54for a new tape

00:21:54to be made

00:21:55of his cards.

00:21:57That is,

00:21:58if he could get

00:21:58at the cards

00:21:59in the first place.

00:21:59And did you think

00:22:00that was a possibility?

00:22:02Well, only just.

00:22:05I mean,

00:22:05he'd have to know

00:22:06an awful lot.

00:22:06He'd have to be

00:22:07a programmer

00:22:07capable of writing

00:22:09programmes like that.

00:22:10But Mr Warren's concern

00:22:11was not unreasonable.

00:22:12Extreme, perhaps.

00:22:13After all,

00:22:14he was safeguarding

00:22:15his employer's money,

00:22:16was he not?

00:22:17Well, yes.

00:22:19Tell me, Mr Collins,

00:22:20at any time

00:22:20in the two-year history

00:22:21of Midland Rapper,

00:22:23did you become aware

00:22:23that anything

00:22:24on two-ord

00:22:24was going on?

00:22:26No.

00:22:27There's no reason

00:22:28why I should.

00:22:29Despite the fact

00:22:30that the company

00:22:31went through its annual audit

00:22:32in the normal way?

00:22:33Well, of course,

00:22:33it wasn't the normal way.

00:22:35It was the first audit

00:22:36since the accounts

00:22:36had been processed

00:22:37by a computer.

00:22:38Computerised accounts

00:22:41difficult to audit?

00:22:42Well, I'm not an auditor.

00:22:44But, er,

00:22:45yes,

00:22:45there are difficulties,

00:22:46of course,

00:22:47simply because

00:22:48one computer

00:22:48can do so much

00:22:49and UKPC

00:22:50is a very big company.

00:22:52I mean,

00:22:52there's a printout

00:22:53of everything

00:22:53for an entire year.

00:22:55It's enormous.

00:22:56Quite.

00:22:57It is, at any rate,

00:22:58obvious that the

00:22:59deception passed unnoticed.

00:23:01Mr Collins,

00:23:02can you tell me,

00:23:03is it possible

00:23:05that any money

00:23:06paid out to

00:23:07Midland Rapper

00:23:08was the only money

00:23:10that was improperly

00:23:11paid out

00:23:12during this period?

00:23:15No,

00:23:15I suppose not.

00:23:17Well,

00:23:17is it possible

00:23:18that other techniques,

00:23:19similar to the one

00:23:20you've described

00:23:20or quite different,

00:23:22could have been used?

00:23:24I mean,

00:23:24is the computer

00:23:26in operation

00:23:26at the present time?

00:23:28Yes.

00:23:28What's it doing?

00:23:30Usual things.

00:23:32Stock control,

00:23:33invoicing,

00:23:33payroll?

00:23:34Paying out money?

00:23:35Yes.

00:23:36And you,

00:23:37who know what this

00:23:38machine can do

00:23:39better or as well

00:23:40as anyone,

00:23:41cannot be sure

00:23:42that this present time

00:23:43it is not paying out money

00:23:45that it should not

00:23:46be paying out?

00:23:47Well,

00:23:47I hope it isn't.

00:23:48I am.

00:23:49I'm fairly sure

00:23:50it isn't.

00:23:51Yes,

00:23:51but in view of everything

00:23:53we've been told,

00:23:54can you be quite sure?

00:23:57No.

00:24:01The case of the Queen

00:24:17against Warren

00:24:17continues tomorrow

00:24:19in the Crown Court.

00:24:20The trial

00:24:26is only

00:24:27good for the

00:24:27unless

00:24:28the

00:24:30No-no

00:24:30cannot be

00:24:31even

00:24:32as

00:24:33the

00:24:37as

00:24:37anything

00:24:38else

00:24:38has

00:24:39already

00:24:39been

00:24:40around

00:24:41.

00:24:50Samuel Arthur Warren is accused of the fraudulent use of his employer's computer,

00:25:07by which he caused £125,000 to be paid into an account he'd opened in the name of Midland Rapper.

00:25:14The prosecution has established that Warren admitted these facts

00:25:17and has called a computer programmer, whose evidence showed that Warren knew enough

00:25:21to have given false instructions to the computer.

00:25:24The next prosecution witness is Harold Swenloft.

00:25:28Mr Swenloft, you are the Midland Area Accounts Manager of UKPC.

00:25:32I am, yes, correct.

00:25:33Now, what relationship exists, I mean professionally, between yourself and the accused?

00:25:37I am, or at least I was, his immediate superior.

00:25:40How long have you known the accused?

00:25:42Oh, about three and a half years since he came into my department.

00:25:45So you could claim to know him well.

00:25:47Well, as far as work goes, yes.

00:25:48And, of course, you are thoroughly conversant, are you, with the kind of work that he did?

00:25:52Well, naturally.

00:25:53Now, could you tell the court how the facts concerning Midland Rapper first came to your attention?

00:25:58Yes.

00:25:59Well, it was in March.

00:26:00Mr Benson, he's my assistant, he came to me with a cheque which we'd sent out,

00:26:04which had been returned to us.

00:26:05A cheque for how much?

00:26:06£2,200 made out in favour of Midland Rapper.

00:26:09And what did you subsequently discover about this company?

00:26:12Well, that it didn't exist.

00:26:13That must have rather alarmed you, did it?

00:26:15It did, yes.

00:26:16Now, the court has heard something about the existence, or rather the non-existence, of this company.

00:26:22Mr Swenoff, I wonder if you could tell us how, in the first place, you managed to find an address to which you could send this cheque?

00:26:28Yes.

00:26:29The payments at that time were being processed by hand.

00:26:33One of the girls looked up the address in the company records.

00:26:36Mr O'Connor, do you object to this evidence?

00:26:39Ah, no, my lord.

00:26:40How could she do that if Midland Rapper did not exist?

00:26:44Well, we had at one time done business with a company called Midland Rapper Film and Foyle.

00:26:48They went into liquidation some time ago, but we, of course, still had records of them.

00:26:51I see.

00:26:52And what was their address?

00:26:53Bottingdon Industrial Estate, Selsey Heath.

00:26:55And what made the girl you spoke of assume that this was the company to whom the cheque was due?

00:26:59Well, the name, of course.

00:27:01And the fact that on the delivery note, it did, in fact, say Midland Rapper, Selsey Heath.

00:27:05I see.

00:27:06So we have, if I follow you, an imaginary company with a name very similar to that of a company that had ceased to exist, but with the same address.

00:27:12Precisely, yes.

00:27:13Now, and this is very important, Mr Swenoff, why should someone bent on defrauding your company of large sums of money choose to invent a company with a name so similar to the one that you've talked about?

00:27:24Oh, because the details of that company would already be on file in our computer records, and they would have been given a code number when the computer was first installed.

00:27:31And this code number is important?

00:27:33Oh, yes, very.

00:27:34Yes.

00:27:34Would it be true to say that the existence of this code number in your computer's memory served to, well, to establish the bona fides of the company as far as the computer was concerned?

00:27:44Exactly that.

00:27:45Yes.

00:27:46And was it the case that one of the things entailed by this code number was that the company was to be paid by credit transfer?

00:27:51Oh, yes.

00:27:52Yes.

00:27:53Now, and when this company went out of business, this code number was not cancelled in any way?

00:27:57Well, it seems it wasn't, no.

00:27:59No, no.

00:27:59So this code number, still valid, was available for fraudulent purposes?

00:28:04Oh, yes, it was still valid.

00:28:05Yes.

00:28:05Now, therefore, it seems likely, does it not, Mr Swenoff, that someone with fraudulent intent should make use of this particular...

00:28:11My lord, I object to my friend's use of the word fraudulent.

00:28:14The existence of such intent is very much at issue.

00:28:16Yes, Mr O'Connor.

00:28:17Mr Gulling, I think you should avoid that expression.

00:28:19Very well, my lord.

00:28:20Mr Swenoff, was Mr Warren in a position to know these things?

00:28:25Mr Warren took a very close interest in everything to do with our computer.

00:28:28He did, I see.

00:28:29And would you say that he had a thorough knowledge of the system and how it worked?

00:28:32Well, of course, I'm no expert on computers, but he seemed to have the hang of things, yes.

00:28:38Yes, when you say he seemed to have the hang of things, do you mean that he took a special interest in matters relating to this computer?

00:28:43Oh, yes, a great deal of interest.

00:28:45I know he spent a lot of time with the computer people when the machine was first installed.

00:28:49And subsequently, did he show much interest?

00:28:50Oh, yes, indeed.

00:28:53In fact, people used to say, you know, the computer was Warren's baby.

00:28:57Warren's baby.

00:28:59And in the normal course of his work, Warren made use of this computer, did he?

00:29:02Oh, yes, he was in credit control.

00:29:04All their records were computerised.

00:29:06So he had access to the computer and was a familiar figure in the computer room?

00:29:10Yes.

00:29:10And if someone had happened to notice him alone there in the computer room, it wouldn't have seemed at all out of the way?

00:29:16Oh, no, not at all.

00:29:17Now, what was Mr Warren's salary at this time?

00:29:20£2,750 a year, plus bonuses.

00:29:23So he might earn around £3,000?

00:29:25That's about right, yes.

00:29:27Reasonably a substantial salary.

00:29:28Was Mr Warren happy in his work?

00:29:31Well, I'm not sure I'd say happy exactly.

00:29:34Why not?

00:29:35Well, he'd put in for various promotions, senior jobs that were going, you know, and been turned down for various reasons.

00:29:42Yes, what sort of reason?

00:29:42My lord, I object. We are not here to discuss my client's fitness or otherwise for senior management.

00:29:48I agree.

00:29:49Very well, my lord.

00:29:51Mr Swenloff, what would you say was Mr Warren's reaction to being turned down for these promotions that he sought?

00:29:58Well, resentment mainly.

00:30:00He resented?

00:30:01Yes.

00:30:02Did he ever say or do anything to make you appreciate that?

00:30:04Oh, yes, I did hear him offer his opinion of senior management in the company.

00:30:08And what was his opinion?

00:30:08When he said the company was run by, well, he suggested that the management was incompetent.

00:30:14Yes.

00:30:15What words did he use?

00:30:17He called them a shower of pompous penguins.

00:30:21Did he ever call them anything else?

00:30:23Yes, he called them zombies on one occasion and, oh yes, he said if we allow funerals on expense accounts we will discover that they were already dead.

00:30:29I see.

00:30:30And how were these clearly resentful remarks delivered to you?

00:30:33With anger or what?

00:30:34Well, just, well, sarcastically, that's all.

00:30:37And what did you do when Mr Warren delivered himself of these opinions?

00:30:41I said if that was how he felt, it was no great surprise that he wasn't exactly shooting to the top.

00:30:45Quite.

00:30:46Now, when was Mr Warren last turned down for one of these promotions?

00:30:50Oh, that would be early in 1972.

00:30:531972, yes.

00:30:54And when did Mr Warren's fictitious company start to receive payments through this computer?

00:30:58Oh, as far as we know, in August 1972.

00:31:021972.

00:31:03Not long after his last rejection?

00:31:06That would be right, yes.

00:31:07Thank you, Mr Swenloft.

00:31:13Mr Swenloft, do you share Mr Warren's opinion of the management of UKPC?

00:31:19Certainly not.

00:31:22Would you call it competent then, Mr Swenloft, to lose £120,000 over two years and not to notice until a mere accident exposed the fact?

00:31:31Well, I mean...

00:31:33I suggest the facts tend to support the opinion expressed by my client, then.

00:31:37Lord, I do not see how the efficiency of the management of this company can be relevant to the case.

00:31:41Oh, can I at the moment, Mr Golding?

00:31:43Very well, my lord.

00:31:45I have a number of questions to put to this witness.

00:31:48I wonder if it might be a good idea to adjourn it.

00:31:50Yes, very well.

00:31:52Yes, we will adjourn for lunch.

00:31:55Members of the jury, you may discuss this case amongst yourselves, but not where you may be overheard.

00:32:00I will adjourn now.

00:32:01When you are ready, Mr O'Connor?

00:32:19Mr Swenloft, would you say that Mr Warren was good at his job?

00:32:23Well, yes, sir. He was more than adequate, shall we say?

00:32:26Oh, let's not say that. It's a little vague, isn't it?

00:32:29Are you saying that he wasn't very good at his job, or he was?

00:32:32Oh, all right, I'd say he was.

00:32:33And if he was very good at his job, why was he not promoted?

00:32:37My lord, I object.

00:32:38My only friend has been at pains to point out that this line of questioning is irrelevant.

00:32:42It's irrelevant to the prosecution, my lord.

00:32:45But the relationship between my client and his superior are of very great importance in his defence.

00:32:50How is that, Mr O'Connor?

00:32:51Well, because it'll go a long way to explaining why he conceived this elaborate plan in the first place.

00:32:57Oh, well. Well, let's get on.

00:33:00Thank you, my lord.

00:33:03Well, Mr Swenloft, you were going to tell us why my client was not promoted.

00:33:07It was his attitude.

00:33:09Could you elaborate, please?

00:33:11Well, he had a very high opinion of himself and didn't trouble to hide it.

00:33:17Thought he was a bit clever.

00:33:18A bit clever? And wasn't he?

00:33:21Not so clever as he thought, I'd say.

00:33:22Oh, I see. You thought him a bit big-headed.

00:33:29Yes.

00:33:31A bit of a clever Johnny, would you say?

00:33:33Yeah, more or less.

00:33:35Now, you did say, didn't you, speaking of your own knowledge of computers, I'm no expert.

00:33:40Yes, yes, I did say that.

00:33:42Well, you could hardly say anything else, Mr Swenloft.

00:33:44From what has been said, it would appear that Mr Warren, not only, as you said, had the hang of it, he understood computers very well.

00:33:52Well enough to siphon off large sums of money and go undetected for two years. Is that not so?

00:33:57Well, then...

00:33:58While all you can do is to say, I'm no expert.

00:34:02On this evidence, Mr Swenloft, and I suggest my client was exactly what he said he was, a good deal cleverer than you.

00:34:08Well, when it comes to computers, perhaps, but that doesn't excuse a general attitude.

00:34:11Oh, why so, Mr Swenloft, when it comes to computers, and when it does, or rather, when computers came to UKPC,

00:34:19you were on the committee which made the important decisions, were you not?

00:34:23Yes.

00:34:24So you were instrumental in deciding to lease the computer, what sort of computer, and the sort of programme, and so on.

00:34:31Yes, I was.

00:34:32Tell me, is Mr Warren on that committee?

00:34:35No, he wasn't.

00:34:36Why not?

00:34:37It was a committee of heads of departments concerned.

00:34:40It was a sort of a top management committee, then.

00:34:42Of course, yes.

00:34:43And I hope, Mr Swenloft, that the other members of this committee were more expert in these matters than you have confessed yourself to be.

00:34:49Do you think they were?

00:34:51Well, I can't say about that.

00:34:54Really, Mr Swenloft?

00:34:56After sitting on this committee with people who are well known to you, and meeting many times to discuss precisely these matters,

00:35:03you can't say whether they knew more or less than you?

00:35:07Well, I take it they did speak at these meetings.

00:35:11Mr Swenloft, you were all, at the very least, awake, were you not?

00:35:15Oh, my Lord, this is wholly unwonted.

00:35:16Mr O'Connor.

00:35:17I'm sorry, my Lord, I withdraw that statement.

00:35:20It was perhaps a little frivolous.

00:35:21It was gratuitously insulting, Mr O'Connor.

00:35:25I apologise, my Lord.

00:35:30Well, I suggest, Mr Swenloft, that these other meetings, or other members, rather, of the committee,

00:35:36probably knew as much about the subject as you did.

00:35:39Would you agree?

00:35:40Yes, I suppose so.

00:35:43Then it would not be unfair or flippant in any way to suggest that you were probably not awake to all the implications of the decisions that you were taking at that time.

00:35:52One might possibly say that.

00:35:55Isn't it also true that if Mr Warren bore some resentment to, against what he saw as an adequacy on the part of the management,

00:36:05you and your fellow managers also bore some resentment towards him?

00:36:09No, that isn't true.

00:36:11Oh, it isn't true that you resented the fact that here was a man, your junior, who was cleverer than you,

00:36:16knew what he was talking about when you didn't, and had the courage to tell you so.

00:36:20No, I just don't think that's true.

00:36:21Don't you?

00:36:22Do you recognise this, Mr Swenloft?

00:36:24Exhibit five, my Lord.

00:36:26It's a memo from Mr Warren to Mr Swenloft, an agreed document.

00:36:31It was sent to everyone concerned with the leasing of the computer.

00:36:35May I well.

00:36:36Do you recognise this document, Mr Swenloft?

00:36:39Yes, I do.

00:36:40Well, could you tell the court briefly what it contains?

00:36:42Well, it contains Warren's views on the subject of computerising our accounts.

00:36:46Yes, it does.

00:36:47Because Mr Warren expresses his views quite forcibly in this memorandum, doesn't he?

00:36:51One might well say that.

00:36:53How would you sum up Mr Warren's arguments here?

00:36:56Oh, he was against the idea.

00:36:58Well, would you say he was against it on balance, or against it totally and utterly?

00:37:02Well, he presents various points, and, well, yes, on balance he's against it.

00:37:07So he makes his points forcefully, but it's a reasoned argument all the same.

00:37:11One could say that.

00:37:11Now, he says here that, in his opinion, many of the apparent gains in efficiency are largely illusory when a staff of people who can think for themselves, or could do so if encouraged, are to be replaced by a machine which can only do what it is told to do.

00:37:28Such efficiency may be bought at the cost of inflexibility.

00:37:31What did you think of that point?

00:37:33Well, I mean, it was pretty obvious what was in his mind.

00:37:36Was it?

00:37:37Yes.

00:37:38He was afraid he was in for the chop.

00:37:40In for the chop?

00:37:41That he'd lose his job, my lord.

00:37:43When we went over to computers, there were redundancies.

00:37:47He didn't think it could have been a genuine and reasonable argument all the same.

00:37:51Well, I suppose that might possibly be true.

00:37:54You didn't think so at the time?

00:37:55As I say, one could read between the lines.

00:37:58Mr Warren continued to suggest some of the dangers you might be running.

00:38:01He says, the company seems unaware of the dangers that accounting by computer might involve.

00:38:08Specifically, that, in my opinion, the computer offers unprecedented opportunities for fraud on a grand scale, and even industrial espionage at the push of a button.

00:38:19Do you think they were reasonable points at the time?

00:38:22We gave them some attention.

00:38:24Well, in the light of events, do you now think that they were very reasonable points?

00:38:28Yes, I suppose so.

00:38:29Well, you could hardly do otherwise.

00:38:31The truth of them has been dramatically demonstrated.

00:38:34In a manner of speaking.

00:38:35Well, if you call £125,000 missing, in a manner of speaking, yes.

00:38:42Mr Warren goes on to outline various other dangers that he says are inherent in the computer system.

00:38:49Abstraction of records, deliberate or accidental destruction of information stored,

00:38:53the difficulties of hoarding computer-processed accounts,

00:38:56the dangers of unauthorised access from remote terminals,

00:39:01including, apparently, any telephones.

00:39:04I don't understand this, I'm afraid, but I've never been in your position.

00:39:08What do you think about this point?

00:39:10As I've said, they were considered.

00:39:12The point about the telephone?

00:39:14Oh, a bit far-fetched.

00:39:16I believe it can be done with certain kinds of installations,

00:39:18if you have a central computer connected to remote terminals,

00:39:21but at that time there were no immediate plans for any of these terminals.

00:39:27Are there any now?

00:39:29Well, yes.

00:39:31We now have two.

00:39:33One in London and one in Manchester.

00:39:35Oh!

00:39:36So what a moment ago was just a far-fetched possibility,

00:39:39is now a very real possibility, and a very dangerous one.

00:39:42So why do you not take this seriously?

00:39:44I've never said we didn't take it seriously.

00:39:46Did you call on Mr Warren to expand on his arguments?

00:39:49Well, no.

00:39:51We felt he'd said all you have to say.

00:39:52Did you?

00:39:54You didn't call him up to the committee to talk over these points?

00:39:56No.

00:39:57Then what did you do?

00:39:58I sent him a memo thanking him for his comments.

00:40:01Oh, yes, you did.

00:40:03Mr Warren believes that your reply was contemptuous.

00:40:06Not at all.

00:40:07Neither you nor anyone else on the committee asked Mr Warren to send this memo, did you?

00:40:10No.

00:40:11It was quite unsolicited.

00:40:13Wouldn't it be fair to say that you thought it just another instance of Mr Warren being a clever Johnny?

00:40:18Well, I mean, to some extent it was.

00:40:21He had a habit of telling people how to do their jobs.

00:40:23And so you could shrug it off.

00:40:25I wouldn't quite use that expression.

00:40:27Well, dismiss it then.

00:40:28I did send Mr Warren a memo in reply.

00:40:30Oh, indeed you did.

00:40:31I have it here.

00:40:33Exhibit 6, my lord, a memorandum from Mr Swenloff to Mr Warren.

00:40:36Yes.

00:40:37I'd like to read it, if I may.

00:40:38Very well.

00:40:40Thank you for your comments on the computer business.

00:40:43The board has decided to lease a datum 16,5000, bearing in mind your interest, concern and obvious knowledge on the subject.

00:40:53It has been agreed that you should be the one to take a special interest in matters relating to the transition to computer, particularly with regard to security and so on.

00:41:02The board may call on you whenever it feels need for a report on the new system.

00:41:06Any additional responsibility this entails will, of course, be borne in mind at the next salary review.

00:41:11You remember sending this, Mr Swenloff?

00:41:14Yes.

00:41:16Would you think it fair to describe it as a brush-off, Mr Swenloff?

00:41:19No, not entirely.

00:41:20A brush-off, Mr O'Connor?

00:41:22What would that be?

00:41:23Contemptious rebuff, my lord.

00:41:28That is what it is, wouldn't you say?

00:41:30No, I'd merely call it a polite memo.

00:41:33Oh, it's polite.

00:41:35Even nicely phrased.

00:41:37But it doesn't suggest that Mr Warren's comments have been taken too seriously.

00:41:42It asks him to take a special interest, but it doesn't define this interest or limit it or give the job a name.

00:41:48It merely refers to matters involved with regard to security and so on.

00:41:55Now, did the board ever, in fact, call on Mr Warren for a report on the new system?

00:41:59No, not as far as I can remember.

00:42:01No, it didn't.

00:42:03Can you honestly believe there was any real idea that it would?

00:42:07Well, no.

00:42:11Not really, no.

00:42:12But you have to keep people happy, don't you?

00:42:16Quite.

00:42:16And was this somewhat notional responsibility taken into account at the salary review next following?

00:42:23No, I don't think so.

00:42:25Of course it wasn't.

00:42:26Because, however polite, this was a rebuff.

00:42:30Do you expect Mr Warren to take this additional responsibility seriously?

00:42:33Well, no, not really.

00:42:34I knew he'd busybody around anyway.

00:42:36And does it surprise you to learn that Mr Warren did take your suggestion seriously?

00:42:40I'm not all that sure he did.

00:42:42Well, did he ever make any recommendations or suggestions to you on the subject?

00:42:45Well, yes, I did get copies of memos he sent.

00:42:49But he was a great writer of memos.

00:42:52I had to keep reminding him they should be just that.

00:42:54A brief note of something to be remembered, not a philosophical treatise.

00:42:58Did you pay any attention to them?

00:43:00Well, I'm quite sure I read them.

00:43:02What sort of things did they mention, then?

00:43:04Well, right now I can't actually remember offhand.

00:43:07And, oh, yes, he was quite insistent that all the punch cards should be locked away.

00:43:12Yes.

00:43:13Did Mr Warren ever point out to you the danger of tampering with the programme?

00:43:17Of inserting cards into the stack for the purposes of fraud?

00:43:20Yes, yes, I suppose so.

00:43:22So, in fact, it does not come as a surprise to you to learn that Mr Warren took his responsibility for computer security seriously.

00:43:28On the contrary, you were well aware of the fact.

00:43:30Oh, well, in a sense, he was just trying to make himself important.

00:43:35Oh, you thought it was a scheme for self-aggrandizement.

00:43:38And did other people think as you did?

00:43:40Well, yes, it was typical of the man.

00:43:43Did Mr Warren ever put forward the idea of the computer security committee?

00:43:46Um, yes, I believe he did.

00:43:49Was such a committee ever formed?

00:43:50No, no.

00:43:51Why not?

00:43:52Did you dismiss that, too, as a hobby horse of self-importance?

00:43:56Yes, I suppose so.

00:43:57I can't really say why.

00:43:58Even though Mr Warren had pointed out all these dangers in a system that you, by your own admission, didn't understand at all.

00:44:06The court will not be surprised to learn that Mr Warren found it necessary to drive into your heads by force of example,

00:44:12when he could not get in by reason alone.

00:44:16And to do that, he created Midland Rapper.

00:44:19As an exercise for the benefit of people like you, Mr Swenloft.

00:44:23For no other purpose, and with no other intention.

00:44:26I have no further questions for this witness, my lord.

00:44:31That concludes the case for the prosecution, my lord.

00:44:37I, um, call Samuel Warren.

00:44:43Mr Warren, it has been stated that you were, on balance, opposed to the introduction of the computer.

00:44:49Is that so?

00:44:50Yes.

00:44:51Did you argue your objections in this memo?

00:44:55Exhibit five.

00:45:01Yes.

00:45:03I see here that you list numerous points.

00:45:06Unauthorised access, sabotage, industrial espionage, fraud, accidental destruction of records, and much, much more.

00:45:14Do you still consider these to be valid points?

00:45:17I do, yes.

00:45:19You also stated that you consider that the introduction of the computer would result in a period of confusion and chaos.

00:45:26Yes.

00:45:28Was this prophecy fulfilled?

00:45:30Oh, yes.

00:45:32How?

00:45:35What sort of things happen, please, Mr Warren?

00:45:38Ah.

00:45:39Oh, um, accounts were lost track of.

00:45:43Um, work was duplicated all over the place.

00:45:47Uh, people who learned to use the new system were unable to work alongside those people who hadn't.

00:45:52The result was chaos.

00:45:54Did you feel this justified some of the things you said in your memo?

00:45:58Yes.

00:46:00Did you consider that these difficulties were inevitable?

00:46:02Well, when you totally reorganise the entire accounts department of a firm as big as ours,

00:46:10uh, you're bound to create confusion.

00:46:13And going over to computer involved a considerable degree of reorganisation?

00:46:17You couldn't conceive of a greater degree of reorganisation, no.

00:46:21Had you any idea how this reorganisation should be approached?

00:46:25Ah, yes.

00:46:27If we had to have it, then, as far as I was concerned,

00:46:30we should have progressed with very great caution.

00:46:34You suggested that, did you?

00:46:35Yes.

00:46:36In a number of conversations with Mr Swenloft,

00:46:38I even outlined the phases I thought we might go through.

00:46:42Was any notice taken of your advice?

00:46:45None whatsoever, no.

00:46:47No, they...

00:46:49plunged ahead.

00:46:51Well, in, uh, what spirit would you say they plunged ahead?

00:46:54A kind of...

00:46:56lunatic euphoria.

00:47:00They decided that we had to have a computer, and that was it.

00:47:05I think they thought it showed what jolly progressive people they all were.

00:47:09Looks good in the annual general reports, that sort of thing.

00:47:12Do you not yourself consider a computer to be a useful thing?

00:47:16Useful, yes, but not absolutely vital.

00:47:18You don't have to have one.

00:47:19The management seemed to think that we did.

00:47:21Have to have one, that is.

00:47:23Well, there must have been some advantages, Mr Warren, because, after all, the managers are well known to be conservative in money matters, and computers are, after all, very expensive.

00:47:32Yes, but under the sort of leasing arrangements that we made, um, a lot of the cost can be discounted against tax.

00:47:40Oh, Mr Warren, there were other considerations which were influential in the decision to computerise.

00:47:46Oh, yes. Yes, take the wage bill, for example.

00:47:48Now, install a big computer, and you can shove, what, a score of people into the queue at the labour exchange.

00:47:54Mind you, you have to give it better working conditions than the people have got.

00:47:57Mr Warren.

00:47:58It's got to be spotlessly cleaned.

00:47:59Mr Warren.

00:48:00Or air-conditioned, or it won't work at all.

00:48:01Mr Warren.

00:48:03Nevertheless, you are not against computers as such.

00:48:07The case of the Queen against Warren continues tomorrow in the Crown Court.

00:48:37Mr Warren.

00:49:02Samuel Arthur Warren is accused of the fraudulent use of his employer's computer,

00:49:21by which he caused £125,000 to be paid into a bank account that he had opened.

00:49:27The prosecution has shown how this was done,

00:49:29and that Warren had the necessary knowledge and opportunity.

00:49:32When arrested, Warren did not deny any of this, but refused to make a statement,

00:49:37and he pleads not guilty to the charge of dishonestly falsifying accounts.

00:49:41Warren is now in the witness spot.

00:49:43Mr Warren, in your opinion, did the management of UKPC understand computers?

00:49:48Anything but. Mind you, I'm sure they're learning. Slowly.

00:49:53But initially, they were only too happy to hand over everything to do with the company's cash flow.

00:49:59To a bunch of magnetic tapes and punch cards without understanding one half of the implications.

00:50:05Did you consider that you did understand all the implications?

00:50:08No, no, no. Far from it. Just rather more of them than those taking the decisions.

00:50:14Did you entertain a high opinion of these people?

00:50:17As professional management, no.

00:50:19Did you dislike them?

00:50:21As people?

00:50:23Not particularly. If I may say so, they are typical of their kind.

00:50:27In what way typical, Mr Warren?

00:50:30Well, the further up the hierarchy they get,

00:50:33the more time they spend in justifying their position.

00:50:37Not actually by filling it, but by an obsession with the perks and the prestige and the self-importance.

00:50:44And so on.

00:50:45UKPC has some rather classic examples of the Peter Principle, if you are familiar with that.

00:50:50Well, I confess that I am not, Mr Warren.

00:50:52Perhaps you could enlighten me.

00:50:54Well, it's a sort of blinding glimpse of the obvious.

00:50:59It suggests that in any organisation where promotion depends on being competent,

00:51:05then people go on being promoted until they finally reach a level where they aren't competent anymore.

00:51:12And they stay there.

00:51:13Who is it who puts forward this principle?

00:51:16Professor Lawrence J Peter in a book called The Peter Principle or Why Things Always Go Wrong.

00:51:23I see. Thank you.

00:51:25Yes, Mr McConnell?

00:51:26Did you think this phenomenon was manifest in UKPC?

00:51:30Oh, yes.

00:51:32These men, however, in UKPC were planning to introduce a computer.

00:51:38Was that not a progressive point or idea?

00:51:41Oh, yes. Every so often they have a great leap forward

00:51:45and invariably they tend to fall flat on their faces.

00:51:50Now, it has been said that you knew something about computers

00:51:53and you took an interest in such matters.

00:51:55Is that true?

00:51:56Yes.

00:51:57You have a degree in mathematics, have you not?

00:52:00That's right, yes.

00:52:01Have you ever used a computer before?

00:52:03Hmm. At university, it was a very small one.

00:52:06It was considered to be something of a toy at that time.

00:52:09Was that computer anything like the one at UKPC?

00:52:12No.

00:52:13Same principles, of course, but very much less sophisticated.

00:52:17But the same principle?

00:52:18Yes.

00:52:19Yes.

00:52:20As far as you knew, had any of the men on Mr Swenloff's committee

00:52:23enjoyed your advantage in this respect?

00:52:25No.

00:52:26Were they aware that you had some experience, however limited, in this field?

00:52:29Yes, I had mentioned it.

00:52:31Yet we have heard that they did not consider it worthwhile

00:52:34to seek your advice or act on it when it was offered.

00:52:38What sort of response did you get to this memo?

00:52:40Ah, well, I got back the other memo from Mr Swenloff, the one there.

00:52:45Did you think Mr Swenloff's memo indicated that you'd been taken seriously?

00:52:50Far from it.

00:52:52Why not?

00:52:53Do you have any idea?

00:52:55Well, I was too junior and they didn't like me.

00:53:02Why not, Mr Warren?

00:53:03Well, as I've already explained, they had become entrenched within a framework of their

00:53:08own incompetence.

00:53:10And I was rather more competent than they were, and they knew it.

00:53:13Mr Swenloff suggested that you were against the computer because you were afraid for your

00:53:18job.

00:53:19Is that true?

00:53:20No.

00:53:21No, not at all.

00:53:23Your memo, you think, was not taken seriously.

00:53:26Did you take Mr Swenloff seriously?

00:53:29Ah, yes.

00:53:31Why?

00:53:32Because it gave me, in general terms, responsibility for computer security.

00:53:38And did you take that responsibility seriously?

00:53:41I took that responsibility very seriously indeed, yes.

00:53:44So what did you do then, Mr Warren?

00:53:46Well, unlike some incompetent people that I could name, I'm not averse to listening to

00:53:51expert advice, so I contacted an expert in computer security.

00:53:56Who was that, please?

00:53:57Oh, a man called Milton.

00:54:00Edward Milton.

00:54:02He's a security consultant.

00:54:04And what did he tell you?

00:54:06Well, he quite simply confirmed what I'd already thought.

00:54:11And I remember he said at one point that the only way to get it across to them was to

00:54:17hit them where it hurts and to make them bleed money.

00:54:23And he said he was familiar with the type of security risks prevalent at UKPC.

00:54:29And it was after this conversation with him that I became convinced that the countermeasures

00:54:34I was considering, well, perhaps I should say planning, were justifiable.

00:54:39Did you talk to him a great deal?

00:54:41No, just the one phone call.

00:54:42I mean, no one was paying him.

00:54:43He wasn't to give me the benefit of his advice.

00:54:46I just wanted his comments.

00:54:48So what did you do?

00:54:50Well, it's all been explained in court.

00:54:55I acted as if I was a man bent on stealing a large amount of money.

00:55:01And I asked myself how he would do it.

00:55:04And having worked it all out, I put it into practice.

00:55:07I see.

00:55:08You acted as if you were bent on stealing a large sum of money.

00:55:12And were you?

00:55:13No.

00:55:14I was proving a point.

00:55:18And the method that has been so laboriously detailed by my friend was the method that you

00:55:23used, was it?

00:55:24Yes.

00:55:25Yes, that's right.

00:55:26Was it the only method that you could have used?

00:55:28No, no.

00:55:29There were several others I could have used, but this was the best for what I had in mind.

00:55:33Why was that?

00:55:34Well, because once I'd updated the information, I didn't need to do anything else.

00:55:39Except delivery notes and stationery is a fairly simple matter.

00:55:43You see, I mean, I could just let the system go on paying out indefinitely.

00:55:49Did you ever think that you might be discovered?

00:55:52I thought that was possible, yes.

00:55:54Didn't the possibility worry you?

00:55:56No, I still think I've made my point.

00:56:01But it seemed to me that I wasn't going to be discovered except by accident.

00:56:05And a security system that depends on accident, well, it just isn't a security system.

00:56:10Did you intend to disclose the facts and the details of what you had done?

00:56:14Yes.

00:56:15I'd decided that when I reached the sum of £150,000, now that seemed to me to be a very frightening sum of money indeed,

00:56:26that I'd write out a cheque for that amount and I'd send it directly to Gilpin.

00:56:32Gilpin?

00:56:33Who's Gilpin?

00:56:34Sir Joseph Gilpin, he's chairman of UKPC.

00:56:38You intended to go straight to the chop then?

00:56:41Yes, well, there wasn't much point talking to all the deadheads in the middle.

00:56:45I already knew that.

00:56:47Did you expect Sir Joseph Gilpin to react favourably?

00:56:50Well, yes.

00:56:52If someone drops a pound and you pick it up and give it to them, they're usually pretty pleased, aren't they?

00:56:58And this would have been £150,000.

00:57:01Quite.

00:57:02But don't you think he'd have found your actions unorthodox, even outrageous?

00:57:07Actually, I think he might rather have appreciated that.

00:57:11I believe that in his time he's done some rather unorthodox things himself.

00:57:15What did you hope to gain, Mr Warren?

00:57:18Well, as I say, recognition of the facts.

00:57:24And I realise this must sound very lame now, but at the time I thought if I played my cards right I could end up on the board.

00:57:36Did you think that was a reasonable expectation?

00:57:39Well, if UKPC was concerned to stop people running away with their money, yes it was.

00:57:45Mr Warren, did you spend any of the money paid to Midland Rapper?

00:57:49No.

00:57:50Not a penny of it?

00:57:51No.

00:57:52Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that have constituted a criminal action?

00:57:59Were you ever tempted to spend that money?

00:58:03Well, who wouldn't have been?

00:58:08What did you do with the cheque book that went with the accountant?

00:58:12I destroyed that. I put it through the paper shredder at work.

00:58:15Yes, but you could have got another, did you?

00:58:17I didn't want another one around. I didn't want to do anything criminal.

00:58:20I've no desire to end up in jail.

00:58:23I simply wanted to prove my point, that it could be done, and done over a long period.

00:58:29And above all, I wanted them to acknowledge that I was right.

00:58:34To be frank with you, I wanted to rub their noses in it.

00:58:37Thank you, Mr Warren.

00:58:39Mr Warren, you must have been well aware of how much money was going into this account that you'd opened.

00:58:48Yes.

00:58:49Can you remember how much was paid in during the first six months?

00:58:52Oh, about £25,000.

00:58:57And during the second six months?

00:59:00Ah.

00:59:01Would £40,000 be about right?

00:59:04Yes, about.

00:59:05It seems you gained in confidence as you went along.

00:59:08Well, with reason, yes.

00:59:11And in the remaining eight months of this deception, how much did you cause to be paid?

00:59:15The balance of about £60,000.

00:59:19£60,000?

00:59:20You were growing very confident indeed.

00:59:25Yes, with reason.

00:59:26You were growing increasingly more greedy, perhaps?

00:59:30Er...

00:59:31No, it just seemed to me that that's what a real thief would do.

00:59:35Er...

00:59:36He'd milk it.

00:59:37And that's what you did, didn't you?

00:59:38You milked it.

00:59:40I was deliberately trying to push the system to the limits.

00:59:44Because you knew how easy it was?

00:59:48Yes.

00:59:49Yes.

00:59:50I put it to you, Mr Warren, that you became increasingly greedy, exactly as a real thief would have done,

00:59:54because you were, in every sense, that real thief.

00:59:57No, I didn't touch the money.

00:59:59Er...

01:00:00If I'd been this real thief that you were talking about, surely I...

01:00:02You had it in your power to spend this money.

01:00:04And I suggest to you the reason you didn't was that the more you got, the more you wanted.

01:00:08And that is why you didn't spend it.

01:00:10No, I mean, look.

01:00:11As far as I was concerned, the money was, well, like tokens counters.

01:00:16Monopoly money, if you like.

01:00:18Are you saying you thought of this thing as a game?

01:00:21More or less, yes. A very serious game, though.

01:00:23You became obsessed with this game, did you not?

01:00:26I wouldn't say obsessed, exactly, no.

01:00:28You played this game continuously for 20 months, Mr Warren, and showed no signs of stopping.

01:00:33I wouldn't say obsessed was too strong a word.

01:00:36I further suggest that, had you not become so obsessed, you would have got out sooner and taken that money with you.

01:00:42No, I had no intention of doing that.

01:00:44Well, may I ask you then, Mr Warren, how you intended to place this cheque for 150,000 pounds on the desk of Sir Joseph Gilpin, as you've said you intended to do,

01:00:52when you have already told us that you put the entire cheque book through the shredder at work and kept not one single cheque.

01:01:03And if you say, as you say you intended to reveal all and hand back this money, why did you not do so?

01:01:09Well, as I've already explained, I was waiting until I had exactly 150,000 pounds, which was to prove my point.

01:01:18Oh, come, come, Mr Warren, how much was needed to prove your point? Would not a mere five pounds have sufficed?

01:01:24Wouldn't have had quite the same impact, would it?

01:01:26Then surely a thousand pounds would have been quite emphatic?

01:01:30Perhaps.

01:01:31Perhaps?

01:01:33Then 10,000 pounds would surely have been very emphatic indeed, would it not?

01:01:37Of course it would.

01:01:39This wasn't a game, was it, Mr Warren? This was a plan to enrich yourself.

01:01:43And I suggest that, had you not become so intoxicated with your own cleverness, that your greed began to outstrip itself,

01:01:48this flimsy, ramshackle and wholly ludicrous story about you having done it all as an exercise in security with the best interests of the company at heart,

01:01:57is just something dreamed up by your obviously inventive imagination when you had been discovered.

01:02:03Yes, it's a pretty story, Mr Warren, in which you play what?

01:02:07I suppose the good fairy in disguise.

01:02:10But like all fairy stories, it is thoroughly unbelievable.

01:02:18Mr Milton, would you tell the court what your work involves, please?

01:02:36I'm retained by the Datum Business Machine Corporation as a security consultant.

01:02:40Datum sells and leases computers and I examine clients set up and, well, plug up security loopholes.

01:02:46I see. Now, Mr Warren claims to have discovered these loopholes at UKPC. Would you agree with that?

01:02:53Yes, he was obviously aware of some of the problems involved at any rate and at least one major gap in security.

01:03:00The device that Mr Warren used, is that the sort of thing you would look for?

01:03:04Yes, sir. That sort of exploitable weakness, yes.

01:03:07In the course of your work, Mr Milton, do you ever use techniques such as Mr Warren employed?

01:03:12I mean, in the course of demonstration, that is.

01:03:14Yes, I do. I try to examine all the means that somebody might go about cheating the system and I try them out at least in theory.

01:03:21Then I advise what should be done about it.

01:03:23Have you ever caused a client's computer to pay out a large sum of money to you?

01:03:27Yes, I have.

01:03:29Without their knowledge?

01:03:31Yes.

01:03:33Could you explain what you do in such a case and why, please?

01:03:34Yes, I might go to a client's establishment, not disclosing who I was. I might get in there by saying I was an engineer, a software salesman, something like that.

01:03:44Software?

01:03:45In the computer business, the machine itself, the electronics and all the ancillary gear, that's the hardware. The cards, the tapes, the programs, that's software.

01:03:55I see. Thank you, Mr Milton. Go on, go on.

01:03:58Well, I might get in there using such a pose. I can talk my way around the subject, obviously. In the worst cases, I don't have to. I just walk in.

01:04:06Then I've done my homework on the system and I put into effect some fraudulent device that I've thought up.

01:04:12What do you do then?

01:04:14Well, what I find to be the best technique is I arrange a meeting with the management of that company a few days later and make it seem as if it's going to be some kind of a preliminary meeting.

01:04:23Would they know anything at all of your previous visit?

01:04:25Not if I'm working well.

01:04:27And what happens at this meeting then?

01:04:28Well, I open my case exactly as if I'm getting out some literature or notes or something and I place a cheque on the table. A cheque I've caused them to pay out to me on my previous visit.

01:04:39Well, I imagine that produces a certain effect.

01:04:42It does produce a certain degree of shock. That's the idea.

01:04:45And might it be for a very large sum, this cheque?

01:04:49The bigger, the better.

01:04:51The bigger, the better. Quite.

01:04:53And what is the usual reaction? I mean, after the initial shock.

01:04:56Well, they tend to get pretty neurotic about security. They listen and they tend to do what you tell them.

01:05:04They don't remain complacent then?

01:05:06Any complacency they might have felt that gets knocked right out of them, except they might feel more complacent about paying my fee, which is not inconsiderable.

01:05:14I only have to remind them that I could have walked away with much more.

01:05:18Quite. Have you ever worried about the legality of such an undertaking?

01:05:21No, sir.

01:05:22Why not? Mightn't this be construed as stealing?

01:05:26Well, when I hand over the cheque, I always say, look, I can run away with this and you can prosecute me.

01:05:31Or I can hand it back and explain to you how I did it. Which would you rather I do?

01:05:36You can imagine the answer is always the same.

01:05:38And you have never been prosecuted on this point?

01:05:41No, never.

01:05:42Have you done it often?

01:05:43About half a dozen times in this country, more in the States.

01:05:46Do you consider this the most effective way of doing your job?

01:05:50Undoubtedly.

01:05:52Do all companies buying or leasing computers from Datum Corporation engage your services?

01:05:57No, sir, by no means.

01:05:59Why not, Mr. Milton?

01:06:00Well, I'm rather expensive and the Datum Corporation probably doesn't plug me too hard.

01:06:06Why not, Mr. Milton?

01:06:08Well, when you're selling, you don't unduly emphasize that side of things. You put the goodies in the window.

01:06:13If every computer user made use of your services, would you eventually find yourself redundant?

01:06:18No, it is my certain belief that computer crooks are going to go on getting smarter every day.

01:06:24I'm going to be kept busy the rest of my life just trying to keep up with them.

01:06:28And do you think that the business world in general is aware of this point?

01:06:31Oh, by no means.

01:06:33Well, do you think that the captains of commerce and industry should be made aware?

01:06:38Of course I do. That's how I make a living.

01:06:40Now, did you ever receive a communication from UKPC?

01:06:43No, just an informal approach to Mr. Warren.

01:06:46Well, would you tell us when that was and what it was about, please?

01:06:50Early in 72, he said he was responsible for security there, but he just couldn't get the message across to some of the people.

01:06:57Did you give him advice?

01:06:59Not exactly advice. I wanted to be friendly, you know. I thought maybe I could be called in there.

01:07:05So what did you do?

01:07:07I listened. He seemed to have the right ideas and I told him so.

01:07:11Did you advise him to want to take a practical demonstration?

01:07:13Uh, I didn't advise him as to what he should do, no.

01:07:19Well, did you ever use the phrase, you have to hit them where it hurts, make them bleed money?

01:07:24Uh, I should think so. It's kind of my motto, you know.

01:07:28What Mr. Warren did is very much in the strain of your motto, Mr. Milton.

01:07:31The sort of thing that you have done yourself previously, is it not?

01:07:33It is similar, yes.

01:07:35Thank you, Mr. Milton.

01:07:39Now, in your work, Mr. Milton, you say you've stolen money many times for the purposes of demonstration.

01:07:44Now, how long would a cheque, such as you mentioned, normally remain in your possession?

01:07:49A few days, rarely more than a week.

01:07:51And it always goes back virtually as soon as you get it?

01:07:54Yes.

01:07:55Now, can you see any advantage to be gained from an indefinite repetition of such a fraudulent device?

01:08:00Nope. I have better things to do with my time.

01:08:02One cheque's always been enough to shock everybody I've dealt with so far.

01:08:06One cheque is always enough?

01:08:08Yes. Yes, thank you, Mr. Milton.

01:08:10Uh, one final question, Mr. Milton.

01:08:12I take it that your clients acknowledge you to be an expert.

01:08:15Are they very ready to listen to you?

01:08:17Well, I should think so. They're paying for the privilege, they ought to.

01:08:19Yes. Well, would your job be harder if you were not accepted as an expert?

01:08:24Yes, of course it would.

01:08:26Thank you, Mr. Milton.

01:08:28Thank you, Mr. Milton. You may leave the witness box.

01:08:30Thank you, Your Honor.

01:08:32I'm calling no further witnesses, my lord.

01:08:34And that concludes the case for the defence.

01:08:40Ladies and gentlemen, the accused claims that the elaborate theft he perpetrated,

01:08:44misappropriating the enormous sum of £125,000 over a period of 20 months,

01:08:51an action which he admits to having committed.

01:08:54The accused now claims that everything he did was in the nature of an exercise,

01:08:59and that he never intended to keep the money.

01:09:01Well, members of the jury, if that were the case,

01:09:04you may well care to ask yourselves a number of questions.

01:09:06First, why did he not make a statement to this effect to the police at the time of his arrest?

01:09:13I suggest the answer is he hadn't thought of it at the time.

01:09:17Secondly, why did he not make his grand gesture of revealing all to Sir Joseph Gilpin

01:09:23when he had reached the substantial sum of, say, £1,000,

01:09:27which I calculate was probably stolen within approximately the first month?

01:09:31For you will remember the clear statement from the defence witness, Mr Edward Milton,

01:09:37that to make the point about security, one cheque is enough,

01:09:42and that such a cheque would remain in his possession for a few days,

01:09:46but rarely more than a week.

01:09:49And yet Mr Warren was still playing his supposed game

01:09:54and amassing the considerable sum of £125,000 after 20 months.

01:09:58A game which I suggest, ladies and gentlemen, might still be being played

01:10:03had not the human factor upset his computerised calculations.

01:10:07You may also ask yourselves why such a man,

01:10:11so obsessed with the detail and the careful planning of this exercise,

01:10:15if such it was, would have left no safeguard,

01:10:19such as a sealed letter with his bank manager to be opened in the event of such an arrest,

01:10:24explaining his motives for these continuing thefts.

01:10:29No, members of the jury,

01:10:31whether the accused devised this ingenious robbery out of frustration or resentment,

01:10:36or as I suggest, out of malice,

01:10:39what may have begun as an obsession to show these pompous penguins,

01:10:44as he referred to them, some of the security arrangements,

01:10:46the loopholes in them for UKPC, became an obsessive desire to accumulate a vast...

01:10:53Prosecution has suggested that a degree of obsession took hold of my client.

01:10:57And perhaps that is true.

01:11:00Certainly he had a single-minded desire to make demonstrably clear

01:11:03that what he had said, and what had been ignored, was true.

01:11:08And that the threat, as he saw it, was a very real one.

01:11:13And so, members of the jury, what is disputed is the accused's motive.

01:11:21Now, the prosecution claims that he was motivated by a desire for gain,

01:11:25and that desire was spurred on by a certain resentment or malice,

01:11:31he bore his superiors.

01:11:33Now, the defence claims that a resentment, a mutual resentment,

01:11:37existed between Mr. Warren and his superiors,

01:11:41and did indeed stimulate him,

01:11:43but only insofar as it drove him to take extraordinary measures

01:11:47in order to prove himself right and then wrong.

01:11:50However, these extraordinary measures put at his disposal a very large sum of money.

01:11:57The defence claims that he never intended to use that money,

01:12:00that he intended to return it.

01:12:02And it is a matter of fact that he did not use it.

01:12:06However, here you may have to consider whether, at any point,

01:12:12during his long and successful period of false accounting,

01:12:15the accused intended to use that money for himself.

01:12:21Now, before you could return a verdict of guilty,

01:12:25you would have to be entirely satisfied

01:12:28that the accused intended to use that deception to obtain the money for himself.

01:12:34If you think that is not established, that he had no such intention,

01:12:39then you must return a verdict of not guilty.

01:12:41Will you now please retire and consider your verdict?

01:12:45All stand.

01:12:50Members of the jury, will your foreman please stand?

01:12:53Just answer this question, yes or no.

01:12:56Have you reached a verdict upon which you are all agreed?

01:12:58Yes.

01:13:00Do you find the defendant, Samuel Arthur Warren, guilty or not guilty?

01:13:04Not guilty.

01:13:12Next week, you can join another jury and assess the facts

01:13:15when our cameras return to watch a leading case in the Crown Court.

01:13:18The Crown Court.

01:13:19.

Crown Court - How to Rob a Memory Bank (1974)

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